Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Vulturious]

46 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

True, any plan to reroute the  and  to Williamsburg will certainly happen after the R68/68A cars are retired and replaced by 60-footers (long after). But they’ll still have to extend Eastern Division platforms for 10-car trains. Might as well expand Essex into a station with four tracks.

I feel like an  service from Astoria to Euclid Avenue would be a more reliable service than the current , especially if it doesn’t have half a dozen or more merges.   

I’m not a huge fan of rerouting the  to The Bronx in place of the . I mean, if they wanted to switch back the ‘s and ’s northern terminals (undoing the 1998 swap) so there can be both 6th and 8th Ave services in The Bronx, I’d be ok with that. 

I’d prefer to see the  go to 2nd Ave, although if we ever get to Phase 3, then that could be a problem as it would be extremely difficult to fit ,  and  service between 63rd and 125th streets. If the  stays in Astoria, then we’ll be stuck with it merging with the  and delaying the Broadway Line, even if the merge is moved from 34th to 57th.

It would only be just 1 merge anyways since the  runs via a new connection onto Fulton Line. 1 over many is better because since the  isn't running on QBL anymore, there wouldn't be as much delays. Then again, I don't know how full-proof the plan would really be, again it is just 1 merge rather than the 2 it is now.

[mrsman]

18 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

True. While connecting SAS to Montague wouldn't save much IMO, it would be interesting if we did the following:

6th Ave Express - Williamsburg 

6th Ave Local - Rutgers/Culver

 Nassau - Montague/4th Ave Local

2nd Avenue - Manhattan Bridge North/4th or Brighton

Broadway Express - Manhattan Bridge South/4th or Brighton 

Broadway Local - New Tunnel connection to Fulton Local 

 8th Avenue Express - Fulton Express.

Doing these connections in addition to building transfers in Key areas would provide a system wide benefit as every Manhattan-Brooklyn connection would be gaining access to Midtown in addition to providing a better integration between the IND and BMT. 

I like this and it will be nice to see a full scale map to see what becomes of QBL and Uptown/Bronx service given these changes.  It appears to be a nearly deinterlined system, except at DeKalb and one or two other places that aren't yet apparent.

 along the Fulton line would be alot of service.  I beleive this is the first proposal I have seen with 4 services along Fulton, whereas a more common proposal would be to split service coming out of Montague tunnel, with half of the trains to Fulton local and half the trains to 4th Ave local.  I wonder if it would make sense to send one of those services [perhaps the ] to the Crosstown line to replace the  and to give those stations a direct link to Manhattan.

THe new tunnel is certainly the biggest capital investment of the proposal.  Would it make sense to have 8th Ave local trains  connect to the new tunnel to Fulton and/or Crosstown and for Broadway    to maintain its connection to Montague?  That would create a system of 7 trunk lines to 7 portals.  There could still be a diversion of a handful of Montague trains along the  to service the Banker's special to Essex.

[Bklyn Bound 2 Local]

3 hours ago, mrsman said:

I wonder if it would make sense to send one of those services [perhaps the ] to the Crosstown line to replace the  and to give those stations a direct link to Manhattan.

I do not think this could really work. I think a 0-transfer service from the Crosstown line into Manhattan would be a great idea, but the  was made to connect Brooklyn and Queens without entering Manhattan. Plus, absorbing the  into the  would mean the  would become a 24/7 service, and that would mean there would be a lot of empty trains in Manhattan during nights and weekends. This could not work for the  either, since that would mean the  would have to be changed to a Crosstown line since it would run from 95 St to Forest Hills via Crosstown. Even if it isn't changed it would have to become some sort of loop. So it would be better off sending the  to Forest Hills and 95 St, and that would not end well on Queens Blvd.

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, mrsman said:

I wonder if it would make sense to send one of those services [perhaps the ] to the Crosstown line to replace the  and to give those stations a direct link to Manhattan.

The problem with this is that if you built the Hewes transfer with the Jamaica Line, such a Crosstown route would never actually be the fastest way to Manhattan, so I doubt people would use it as such.

[loveofelevators]

Line: SAS

Stations: 

Norwood-205 St

Bedford Park Blvd:

Kingsbridge Rd:

Fordham Rd:

182-183 Sts:

Tremont Av:

174-175 Sts:

170 St:

167 St:

161-Yankee Stad:

155 St:

145 St:

{passes 135 St:  in both directions}

125 St:

Malcom X Blvd:

Lexington Av:

116 St:

106 St:

96 St:

86 St:

72 St:

55 St:

42 St:

34 St:

23 St:

14 St:

2 Av:

Pitt St

Union Av:

Humboldt St

Myrtle Av:  

Bergen St

Fulton St:

St Johns Pl

Eastern Pkwy:  

Empire Blvd

Church Av

Kings Hwy

Flatlands Av

Kings Plaza

 

 train is a part of SAS now.

 

: 2 Av Express

: 2 Av Local

: 2 Av Local

 

 

 

[Bklyn Bound 2 Local]

39 minutes ago, loveofelevators said:

Line: SAS

Stations: 

Norwood-205 St

Bedford Park Blvd:

Kingsbridge Rd:

Fordham Rd:

182-183 Sts:

Tremont Av:

174-175 Sts:

170 St:

167 St:

161-Yankee Stad:

155 St:

145 St:

{passes 135 St:  in both directions}

125 St:

Malcom X Blvd:

Lexington Av:

116 St:

106 St:

96 St:

86 St:

72 St:

55 St:

42 St:

34 St:

23 St:

14 St:

2 Av:

Pitt St

Union Av:

Humboldt St

Myrtle Av:  

Bergen St

Fulton St:

St Johns Pl

Eastern Pkwy:  

Empire Blvd

Church Av

Kings Hwy

Flatlands Av

Kings Plaza

 

 train is a part of SAS now.

 

: 2 Av Express

: 2 Av Local

: 2 Av Local

 

 

 

I do like this proposal, but I have some questions:

• If the  goes to 205 St, where are you sending the ?
• Why did you make it go all the way east towards Broadway junction and suddenly redirect it to Kings Plaza?
• What happened to the rush hour express on the concourse line?

[loveofelevators]

2 minutes ago, Bklyn Bound 2 Local said:

I do like this proposal, but I have some questions:

• If the  goes to 205 St, where are you sending the ?
• Why did you make it go all the way east towards Broadway junction and suddenly redirect it to Kings Plaza?
• What happened to the rush hour express on the concourse line?

#1.

 goes to the "New 'Concourse Yards' station"

 trains run to 207 St-10 Av via Yard tracks and  express

 goes replacing  local to 168 St-Washington Heights

 

#2.

The S 4 St Connector was proposed a few years ago, or not...

 

#3.

 trains run as a Rush Hour Peak Express on the Concourse line, giving it the express <Z>

 

[NBTA]

3 hours ago, loveofelevators said:

Line: SAS

Stations: 

Norwood-205 St

Bedford Park Blvd:

Kingsbridge Rd:

Fordham Rd:

182-183 Sts:

Tremont Av:

174-175 Sts:

170 St:

167 St:

161-Yankee Stad:

155 St:

145 St:

{passes 135 St:  in both directions}

125 St:

Malcom X Blvd:

Lexington Av:

116 St:

106 St:

96 St:

86 St:

72 St:

55 St:

42 St:

34 St:

23 St:

14 St:

2 Av:

Pitt St

Union Av:

Humboldt St

Myrtle Av:  

Bergen St

Fulton St:

St Johns Pl

Eastern Pkwy:  

Empire Blvd

Church Av

Kings Hwy

Flatlands Av

Kings Plaza

 

 train is a part of SAS now.

 

: 2 Av Express

: 2 Av Local

: 2 Av Local

 

 

 

No ?

[loveofelevators]

28 minutes ago, NBTA said:

No ?

 trains are tructuated back to 57 St-7 Av

[LGA Link N Train]

4 hours ago, loveofelevators said:

The S 4 St Connector was proposed a few years ago, or not...

South 4th was originally proposed back in the 1920's.

[Armandito]

Thoughts on a subway line that connects Upper Manhattan and Queens? It could function as an alternative to cross-river Midtown routes: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1w2lqB-KVq0M_l10CAMNH54AScEDnhfBR&ll=40.78847128713772%2C-73.91472575405922&z=13

[bobtehpanda]

36 minutes ago, Armandito said:

Thoughts on a subway line that connects Upper Manhattan and Queens? It could function as an alternative to cross-river Midtown routes: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1w2lqB-KVq0M_l10CAMNH54AScEDnhfBR&ll=40.78847128713772%2C-73.91472575405922&z=13

People go to Midtown to get to their jobs, no one in Queens is really working in Harlem like that.

[F O O L]

50 minutes ago, Armandito said:

Thoughts on a subway line that connects Upper Manhattan and Queens? It could function as an alternative to cross-river Midtown routes: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1w2lqB-KVq0M_l10CAMNH54AScEDnhfBR&ll=40.78847128713772%2C-73.91472575405922&z=13

I suppose one benefit of this is that it could act as a Queens-Bronx connecter of some sorts? If this is purely fictional, then might as well kinda run it down to jamaica from flushing similar to a q44 type route since extending it out to a transit desert might cause a lot people to transfer to a train that actually goes to midtown at flushing main st. Extensions east in this fictional map should be served by trains that go to midtown.

Edit: also fix your stop spacing, some stops don't need to be so close and I don't think express service (if thats what the white circles indicate) is necesssary.

Edited September 4, 2020 by F O O L

[Armandito]

5 minutes ago, F O O L said:

I suppose one benefit of this is that it could act as a Queens-Bronx connecter of some sorts? If this is purely fictional, then might as well kinda run it down to jamaica from flushing similar to a q44 type route since extending it out to a transit desert might cause a lot people to transfer to a train that actually goes to midtown at flushing main st. Extensions east in this fictional map should be served by trains that go to midtown.

Edit: also fix your stop spacing, some stops don't need to be so close and I don't think express service (if thats what the white circles indicate) is necesssary.

On the other hand, finding a good corridor to use as a crosstown subway route in Manhattan is the hard part. 57th is too close to 59th, while 34th is overbuilt with commuter rail lines feeding into Penn Station. 50th may seem like a nice start but most stations along its vicinity are only served by local trains.

[bobtehpanda]

Just now, Armandito said:

On the other hand, finding a good corridor to use as a crosstown subway route in Manhattan is the hard part. 57th is too close to 59th, while 34th is overbuilt with commuter rail lines feeding into Penn Station. 50th may seem like a nice start but most stations along its vicinity are only served by local trains.

"Too close" doesn't really matter. You're trying to connect people to jobs, so go where the jobs are. Midtown is a tight, narrow place, so it follows that subway lines serving it will be close together.

[Armandito]

39 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

"Too close" doesn't really matter. You're trying to connect people to jobs, so go where the jobs are. Midtown is a tight, narrow place, so it follows that subway lines serving it will be close together.

In that case, the harder part is finding a routing around the tangled mess of tracks in LIC. The junction around Queens Plaza and 36th Street is total chaos, by operation and by design.

[mrsman]

17 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The problem with this is that if you built the Hewes transfer with the Jamaica Line, such a Crosstown route would never actually be the fastest way to Manhattan, so I doubt people would use it as such.

The trains on the WIlliamsburg Bridge are likely to be crowded by the time they reach Hewes making it difficult to accept a significant number of passengers.   passengers already face this problem everywhere in that they have to transfer to a Manhattan bound train at a point that is near the load point of each train they come across.  Having dedicated access into Manhattan would alleviate that.

The idea would be that it would obviate the need for any  passenger from having to make the transfer at Hoyt-Schermerhorn to  and the potential  .  It would have its own access into Manhattan via the new tunnel that connects  to the Fulton line.  The  line would probably need a track connection into the Fulton local somewhere between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the Laffayette station for this to work.

[mrsman]

19 hours ago, Bklyn Bound 2 Local said:

I do not think this could really work. I think a 0-transfer service from the Crosstown line into Manhattan would be a great idea, but the  was made to connect Brooklyn and Queens without entering Manhattan. Plus, absorbing the  into the  would mean the  would become a 24/7 service, and that would mean there would be a lot of empty trains in Manhattan during nights and weekends. This could not work for the  either, since that would mean the  would have to be changed to a Crosstown line since it would run from 95 St to Forest Hills via Crosstown. Even if it isn't changed it would have to become some sort of loop. So it would be better off sending the  to Forest Hills and 95 St, and that would not end well on Queens Blvd.

If  ran along the , it would be a 24/7 service, but the  would not necessarily need to be.   local can take care of Fulton and  can provide the connection to Broadway at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.  I would presume that and would both be run to Astoria, so only one of those is needed late nights.

The  would not run in any sort of loop.  This idea of running to the G line is based on an idea to run  on a new tunnel to Court St station and thence to the Fulton local tracks, not the Montague tunnel.  (under the proposal a  train would connect Essex to 95 St).  

The Crosstown trains coming from Queens would run as they do towards Fulton station.  Then, they would be connected to the Fulton local tracks, joining with the Fulton local trains.  The Fulton local trains would stop at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, then at Court St (transit museum), and then onto the new tunnel to connect to the Broadway BMT local tracks.

[Armandito]

Would it be ideal to incorporate peak-directional express service on a future Northern Boulevard/57th Street subway line? Or would local-only service make more sense?

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Armandito said:

Would it be ideal to incorporate peak-directional express service on a future Northern Boulevard/57th Street subway line? Or would local-only service make more sense?

Riders in general love their express trains, so some sort of express would be ideal....

As an aside, what two endpoints/terminals would this subway line of sorts have?

Edited September 4, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Armandito]

14 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Riders in general love their express trains, so some sort of express would be ideal....

As an aside, what two endpoints/terminals would this subway line of sorts have?

I plan to run it as the line (in a pink bullet) between 162nd Street and Northern Boulevard (near the LIRR Broadway station) and the 34th Street-Hudson Yards station (at a lower level below the existing platform). It would not share any trackage with other subway lines except for a non-revenue connection to the main QBL at the 36th Street interlocking. The side platforms at the 36th Street station would be converted to island platforms to allow it to be served by Northern Boulevard trains (a map would be uploaded soon).

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Armandito said:

Would it be ideal to incorporate peak-directional express service on a future Northern Boulevard/57th Street subway line? Or would local-only service make more sense?

The trend around the world has been for wider stop spacing on only two tracks.

Three tracks doesn't provide any additional capacity benefit; in fact it cuts frequency at local stations. And Northern Blvd lacks obvious "express" station placements.

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, mrsman said:

The trains on the WIlliamsburg Bridge are likely to be crowded by the time they reach Hewes making it difficult to accept a significant number of passengers.   passengers already face this problem everywhere in that they have to transfer to a Manhattan bound train at a point that is near the load point of each train they come across.  Having dedicated access into Manhattan would alleviate that.

The idea would be that it would obviate the need for any  passenger from having to make the transfer at Hoyt-Schermerhorn to  and the potential  .  It would have its own access into Manhattan via the new tunnel that connects  to the Fulton line.  The  line would probably need a track connection into the Fulton local somewhere between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the Laffayette station for this to work.

The problem is that such a train would be so indirect that passengers would almost always opt to take even crowded direct trains. A U is the least direct shape to get across the river.

[Armandito]

28 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The trend around the world has been for wider stop spacing on only two tracks.

Three tracks doesn't provide any additional capacity benefit; in fact it cuts frequency at local stations. And Northern Blvd lacks obvious "express" station placements.

What about Roosevelt Avenue? For decades since the debut of the express just before the 1939 World's Fair, it has proven itself as very popular with riders along the route.

[bobtehpanda]

10 minutes ago, Armandito said:

What about Roosevelt Avenue? For decades since the debut of the express just before the 1939 World's Fair, it has proven itself as very popular with riders along the route.

Stop spacing on the is very close together. Even the IND would probably not build the stops as close as the 7.

And my point about frequency still stands. If you look at the schedule, during the peak hour local stations get less frequency in the peak than non-peak direction, because the peak direction has to be split roughly 50/50 and the reverse-peak does not, and the reverse peak is the limiting factor here given that the yard to store extra trains is only one one end of the line.

Edited September 4, 2020 by bobtehpanda