Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[realizm]

Well during the MTA/NYCTA assessment of the conditions for building the Archer Ave subway and the Queens Bvld Bypass altogether, all in all, the lower level was supposed to provide access to the LIRR Hempstead branch ROW to Springfield Blvd, if my memory is correct (bit preoccupied with another mental task as I write this so correct me if I'm wrong, don't have the sources in front of me). It should have given Queens riders from Queens Village and Hollis a one seat ride to the BMT Eastern Division. The upper portion would have utilized the current in revenue service LIRR Rockaway branch ROW serving St Albans and Laurelton directly from the IND QBL (hence the curve @ Jamaica Center, upper level as opposed to the lower level which is a straight shot from the platforms).

 

As for how the feeder surface transit lines would bring potential passengers to those stations at Merrick/Springfield? That would have been alot of work for the NYDOT to provide the correct grid scenario I agree.

[Vistausss]

Or people from Queens Village and Hollis can just take LIRR for a one-seat ride to Atlantic Terminal and use BMT Eastern Division from there.

[bobtehpanda]

Or people from Queens Village and Hollis can just take LIRR for a one-seat ride to Atlantic Terminal and use BMT Eastern Division from there.

 

Train service isn't very frequent, and it's expensive (and depending on where you're going, might not be faster.)

 

Sure, CityTicket is $4, but trains come even less frequently on weekends.

[Vistausss]

Every 20 minutes on weekdays isn't that bad.

 

But I don't really see your point. There's plenty of room so they can easily add more service from Queens Village to Atlantic Terminal rather than investing $$$ in a new terminal just to serve some already served residents.

[+Young+]

In my opinion, if the population continues to increase in Queens and Nassau County, then why can't the line be extended as far east as possible, within a couple of blocks of the Queens/Nassau line?

[bobtehpanda]

Every 20 minutes on weekdays isn't that bad.

 

But I don't really see your point. There's plenty of room so they can easily add more service from Queens Village to Atlantic Terminal rather than investing $$$ in a new terminal just to serve some already served residents.

 

Most Queens residents are priced out of the LIRR. They'd have to buy a zone 3 monthly ticket, in addition to a 30-day. Most people are not willing to make that trip, particularly when the alternative option involves less waiting and more protection from the elements.

 

Those stations also don't have much in the way of parking, the interstation spacing is large, and most buses operate on Hillside and not Jamaica, so the catchment area is not nearly as large for the LIRR stations.

[Vistausss]

@bob: And again: that's not something that can't be solved. I really don't get it. The OP has an idea for the future, I present an alternative and all you keep yapping about is what's there now (or what isn't). Please, refrain from that and focus on this like intended: the future.

They can just as easily make the CityTicket available during weekdays and install more parking there. That'll surely help to bring in more customers at a relatively cheap price tag compared to the OP's idea.

[bobtehpanda]

@bob: And again: that's not something that can't be solved. I really don't get it. The OP has an idea for the future, I present an alternative and all you keep yapping about is what's there now (or what isn't). Please, refrain from that and focus on this like intended: the future.

They can just as easily make the CityTicket available during weekdays and install more parking there. That'll surely help to bring in more customers at a relatively cheap price tag compared to the OP's idea.

 

Well, each future has its drawbacks, and it is important that these be discussed.

 

Identified problem: the subway does not extend far enough, and many riders must use lengthy bus rides to get to their nearest subway station.

 

Option 1: Extend the subway to 212th and build a Park and Ride.

 

Pros: Yay, the subway got extended east for once! Riders on the Q17, Q2, Q3, Q110, Q76, Q77, and Q43 will no longer have to go all the way into Jamaica to transfer. The bus network can be optimized to reflect this fact.

 

Cons: You'd be throwing a park and ride into an already congested interchange (GCP/Clearview/Hillside/212th). The median cannot host a parking garage because that would mean three highly trafficked signal intersections within extremely short distances of each other, all with heavy left turning traffic. This would seriously muck up traffic. As for other locations, the area is densely populated (by American standards) and would require some very expensive eminent domain.

 

It would also be extremely disruptive during construction of the station. While this is inherently true for all options passing under 212th/Hillside, this would be especially true in the case of building a terminal under 212th, assuming we're building proper relay tracks for the , any necessary storage space, etc.

 

Option 2: Extension to Springfield and Hillside with bus interchange

 

Pros: Hillside at Springfield is very wide, so the construction of a interchange would not be particularly disruptive. Also allows for improved access to the Q27, and shorter bus travel for those further out east.

 

Cons: Most expensive out of all the options (if not counting costs for the P&R in option 1).

 

Option 3: Improvement of LIRR service

 

Pros: Cheapest by far, even if building infill stations.

 

Cons: Least capacity - the LIRR in this area is constrained by the lack of a third track, which has been postponed, if not outright cancelled at this point. LIRR trains are also at standing-room only (or very close to it) during the peak, and are ill-suited to host large amounts of standees.

 

Highest cost for riders - a one way is 9.75, and does not include a connecting Metrocard ride. Because of the lack of capacity, it is doubtful that LIRR will slash fares meaningfully enough without completely overwhelming its system with in-city riders.

 

Least connectivity - the rail line is quite far from Hillside, especially from its eastern end. Not accessible by buses from the north - all buses currently turn at Hillside to connect to the , and will continue to do so. In addition, unlike a subway option, this will attract very few NICE riders - they are already choosing the subway over the LIRR because it's so much cheaper. The street grid is broken by the rail line, limiting the amount of areas within reasonable walking distance from stations.

 

Hollis also has no parking lot, and QV has a very small one. You're not going to eminent domain against the wealthy people of Hollis and win, especially about a parking lot. QV's is on a block that is probably too small to accommodate a multilevel garage, and QV is also fairly wealthy. Parking garages do not make nice neighbors, so expect a very nasty fight with the community.

 

When you talk about the future, you have to talk about how you're going to get there from the present, and what effects that's going to have. Every option has consequences.

Edited October 3, 2013 by bobtehpanda

[JFK Depot]

The only extension I can see making sense would be to finish the Archer Ave extension... Have it go under Merrick or Guy Brewer Blvd... Up the Blvd to Baisley Blvd.. With stops at 109th Ave... Linden Blvd.. And the final stop at Baisley Blvd Rochdale Village

[Vistausss]

@bob: That last sentence: I know, but you weren't thinking about the future at all while I was. But now you finally did so thanks for that!

 

@JFK Depot: LMAO. If they finish the extension don't expect stops in between. If there was money for additional stops they would've started out with building a 10th Ave stop for the . But you're right that the extension itself, even with only 1 or 2 stops would need to happen. And also, let's make Rochdale Village a real terminal so we don't run into the same problem as with Archer Ave now.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Vistausss

[JFK Depot]

@bob: That last sentence: I know, but you weren't thinking about the future at all while I was. But now you finally did so thanks for that!

 

@JFK Depot: LMAO. If they finish the extension don't expect stops in between. If there was money for additional stops they would've started out with building a 10th Ave stop for the . But you're right that the extension itself, even with only 1 or 2 stops would need to happen. And also, let's make Rochdale Village a real terminal so we don't run into the same problem as with Archer Ave now.

The stops would ease the congestion at Jamaica Center.... People in the morning flock in masses to that train station....

I also would extend the J to Belmont Pk....

The F can stay at 179th... Being that it's a 4 track terminal I would extend one of the 2 QB locals to 179...

Since the M is part time... It can continue to be turned at 71st...

I would send the R's to 179th

Or maybe just do what already being done which is to send E trains up hillside but instead of going all the way to 179... I'd turn them at Parsons Blvd / Hillside Ave using the express tracks so it doesn't bother with F traffic on local tracks

All E trains going up Hillside would be express... Union Turnpike followed by Parsons Blvd/Hillside Ave

Edited October 3, 2013 by JFK Depot

[bobtehpanda]

The stops would ease the congestion at Jamaica Center.... People in the morning flock in masses to that train station....

I also would extend the J to Belmont Pk....

The F can stay at 179th... Being that it's a 4 track terminal I would extend one of the 2 QB locals to 179...

Since the M is part time... It can continue to be turned at 71st...

I would send the R's to 179th

Or maybe just do what already being done which is to send E trains up hillside but instead of going all the way to 179... I'd turn them at Parsons Blvd / Hillside Ave using the express tracks so it doesn't bother with F traffic on local tracks

All E trains going up Hillside would be express... Union Turnpike followed by Parsons Blvd/Hillside Ave

 

Conditions out by Hillside aren't so great either.

Queens just needs extensions across the board (and hey, maybe a Queens Blvd bypass to relieve the 2nd-busiest train line in the city)

[N6 Limited]

I was thinking of Exit ramps from the Clearview and GCP going tight into the garages. and ramps from Hillside Ave.

 

Another Idea I just thought of, is extending beyond 212th street to Belmont Race Track for another Park and ride. Traffic from the LIE, Northern State/GCP  can use the 212th Park and Ride

Riders from SE Queens and Southern State can use the one at Belmont Park.

 

Free Parking or $1 parking would attract riders.

 

Or people from Queens Village and Hollis can just take LIRR for a one-seat ride to Atlantic Terminal and use BMT Eastern Division from there.

If you think the LIRR is expensive now,  how expensive would it be by the time this idea would be built?

 

Also, Queens Village and Hollis have one station, how will people get to those stations? Car? Bus? Cab? then still transfer to the subway? 

 

Train service isn't very frequent, and it's expensive (and depending on where you're going, might not be faster.)

 

Sure, CityTicket is $4, but trains come even less frequently on weekends.

Train service on the Hempstead branch is hourly off peak and weekends/ I don't even know how much it is peek but it's about $9 to Penn Station.

 

As a note to everyone, because I see it all of the time LIRR should not be suggested as an alternative to Subway Extension ideas and Nice Bus service plans, there is a reason why people are not using the LIRR, whether it be price, service, destinations or convenience. 

 

Most people that would say use the LIRR from QV may still have to transfer to the subway once they get to Manhattan or wherever they're going. That's an additional cost. 

 

Currently Queens Village to Penn Station/Atlantic Terminal one way is $7 off peak, $9.50 peak. As opposed to $2.50 bus/subway, or "no additional cost" with an unlimited metrocard.

 

It's not as simple as "Just use the LIRR". The same goes for Nice Bus trips. "N6/N22/N24/N27/N4 riders can just use the LIRR", NO!

Edited October 3, 2013 by N6 Limited

[Vistausss]

@N6 Limited: I never stated or even wanted to state "take LIRR instead of NICE". In fact, as you know from the NICE subforum I'm actually a big NICE fan. But in this case LIRR would be the cheapest option for people from QV and Hollis. Peak service = every 30 minutes. That could be upped to 30 minutes off-peak too. Prices are too high now but they can be lowered a bit by introducing CityTicket on weekdays. That would make it $4 which is acceptable. Or they could keep it like it is and introduce a free subway transfer for people boarding from a station in CTZ.

 

I don't see why Hollis is a problem in the first place. People from northern Hollis can use the bus or take their bike to Jamaica-179th. It's not that far. People from southern Hollis, I can see why. St Albans LIRR is not that far off but transferring at Jamaica would be inconvenient.

[N6 Limited]

Well, each future has its drawbacks, and it is important that these be discussed.

 

Identified problem: the subway does not extend far enough, and many riders must use lengthy bus rides to get to their nearest subway station.

 

Option 1: Extend the subway to 212th and build a Park and Ride.

 

Pros: Yay, the subway got extended east for once! Riders on the Q17, Q2, Q3, Q110, Q76, Q77, and Q43 will no longer have to go all the way into Jamaica to transfer. The bus network can be optimized to reflect this fact.

 

Cons: You'd be throwing a park and ride into an already congested interchange (GCP/Clearview/Hillside/212th). The median cannot host a parking garage because that would mean three highly trafficked signal intersections within extremely short distances of each other, all with heavy left turning traffic. This would seriously muck up traffic. As for other locations, the area is densely populated (by American standards) and would require some very expensive eminent domain.

 

It would also be extremely disruptive during construction of the station. While this is inherently true for all options passing under 212th/Hillside, this would be especially true in the case of building a terminal under 212th, assuming we're building proper relay tracks for the , any necessary storage space, etc.

 

 

I was thinking of building ramps to the garage from Hillside, Clearview and GCP.  I was just thinking that cars already heading west can pull right in and jump on the subway.  They could have garage ushers like they do at Disney World, .

 

I'd prefer to drive to this park & ride and use my unlimited or PPR Metrocard on the subway than to somehow get to the LIRR pay that fare and STILL have to use my metrocard. 

 

Technically the Park and Ride station could be "Francis Lewis - Clearview". Right between the two. The the Mezz and stairs at both ends will go to Francis Lewis and 212/Park and Ride. The tail tracks can curve up under the Clearview Expressway while building the multi-story garage with provisions to continue the line straight or down towards Jamaica Ave.

 

@N6 Limited: I never stated or even wanted to state "take LIRR instead of NICE". In fact, as you know from the NICE subforum I'm actually a big NICE fan. But in this case LIRR would be the cheapest option for people from QV and Hollis. Peak service = every 30 minutes. That could be upped to 30 minutes off-peak too. Prices are too high now but they can be lowered a bit by introducing CityTicket on weekdays. That would make it $4 which is acceptable. Or they could keep it like it is and introduce a free subway transfer for people boarding from a station in CTZ.

 

I don't see why Hollis is a problem in the first place. People from northern Hollis can use the bus or take their bike to Jamaica-179th. It's not that far. People from southern Hollis, I can see why. St Albans LIRR is not that far off but transferring at Jamaica would be inconvenient.

I know you didn't state take LIRR instead of nice, I was just saying in general, a lot of people like to say "they can use LIRR, Use LIRR" etc. But if they did have city ticket on weekdays that would be a nice addition.

 

The problem with Hollis or QV is not everyone lives by the station, and there are other communities in Queens, like Cambria Heights, were people would rather drive to the subway than to deal with the LIRR and parking. Or taking a pokey NYC bus, etc This is why dollar cabs are popular in NYC. Same as with any LIRR station. Someone in Baldwin, may live by the Southern State Parkway, that's not near the Baldwin LIRR station.

[Trainmaster5]

From what I've seen over the years the LIRR caters to the Nassau/Suffolk riders, especially during peak hours. Right now they are working on turning the Atlantic Branch( Jamaica-Flatbush) into scoot service. That's another way of saying shuttle service. Supposedly this happens when ESA begins and Penn Station and Grand Central become the main western terminals. I think it's rather doubtful the LIRR will offer weekday City Ticket when their focus seems to be packing their trains out east and treating city dwellers as red headed stepchildren. Heck, in my lifetime the railroad has eliminated stops and entire branches within NYC limits. Park and Ride at Belmont Park is probably the only help the railroad would consider after complaining such a service would foul up service on the main line. Personally, I doubt if the residents of Hollis or Queens Village who don't live next to the LIRR even use it. In a perfect world the subway extensions would be the way to go, IMO. Carry on.

[bobtehpanda]

I was thinking of building ramps to the garage from Hillside, Clearview and GCP.  I was just thinking that cars already heading west can pull right in and jump on the subway.  They could have garage ushers like they do at Disney World, .

 

I'd prefer to drive to this park & ride and use my unlimited or PPR Metrocard on the subway than to somehow get to the LIRR pay that fare and STILL have to use my metrocard. 

 

Technically the Park and Ride station could be "Francis Lewis - Clearview". Right between the two. The the Mezz and stairs at both ends will go to Francis Lewis and 212/Park and Ride. The tail tracks can curve up under the Clearview Expressway while building the multi-story garage with provisions to continue the line straight or down towards Jamaica Ave.

 

1. That would be a very long mezzanine between Francis Lewis and 212th... it's far enough to be two separate stations (and both would be heavily utilized as well).

 

2. The problem is that a parking lot creates a new source of traffic demand (and a very large, peak-heavy one at that), when the current roads are all at capacity. Even with ramps, it will muck up traffic - the Clearview->212th transition is always a mess, as is Hillside. And don't get me started on the Grand Central.

[Vistausss]

@trainmaster5: And don't forget LIRR is also improving waiting areas along the branch. As of writing, they're upgrading Queens Village waiting room to be more modern and pleasant. If they didn't care then they wouldn't invest in it.

 

---------------------------------

 

But alright, back to my LIRR idea. A subway extension would be the best but let's assume LIRR is gonna offer CityTicket on weekdays for all people in CTZ and maybe up the TPH a little. How many people do you guys think would (consider to) take LIRR then?

[bobtehpanda]

@trainmaster5: And don't forget LIRR is also improving waiting areas along the branch. As of writing, they're upgrading Queens Village waiting room to be more modern and pleasant. If they didn't care then they wouldn't invest in it.

 

---------------------------------

 

But alright, back to my LIRR idea. A subway extension would be the best but let's assume LIRR is gonna offer CityTicket on weekdays for all people in CTZ and maybe up the TPH a little. How many people do you guys think would (consider to) take LIRR then?

 

There aren't that many people who have an extra $4 to spare whenever they feel like it. That would bring up the total cost for people not in Hollis or QV to $6.50 - for a comparison, the X68 on Hillside is peak-only, $6, also faster than the subway, and only has demand for 11 trips during the peak.

 

Again, LIRR upping TPH is not possible because the third track project has been shelved, unless they start adding stops to expresses (and for political reasons that is never, ever happening.). Even then, LIRR trains are not that spacious, and have precious little standing room.

[N6 Limited]

@trainmaster5: And don't forget LIRR is also improving waiting areas along the branch. As of writing, they're upgrading Queens Village waiting room to be more modern and pleasant. If they didn't care then they wouldn't invest in it.

 

---------------------------------

 

But alright, back to my LIRR idea. A subway extension would be the best but let's assume LIRR is gonna offer CityTicket on weekdays for all people in CTZ and maybe up the TPH a little. How many people do you guys think would (consider to) take LIRR then?

Clearly you don't live in QV. most people in the area don't care to use the LIRR except later in the evening when waiting for the bus may suck, and on weekends when headed to Brooklyn or there is construction on the QB line.

[Vistausss]

Which is why I proposed an idea to up the LIRR. FUTURE. If you don't want to elaborate on the future then you might as well ask to close this topic. Why wouldn't a weekday CityTicket and a slightly better THP attract more commuters in the FUTURE? Even other branches would benefit from the CityTicket on weekdays since it covers CTZ.

[bobtehpanda]

Which is why I proposed an idea to up the LIRR. FUTURE. If you don't want to elaborate on the future then you might as well ask to close this topic. Why wouldn't a weekday CityTicket and a slightly better THP attract more commuters in the FUTURE? Even other branches would benefit from the CityTicket on weekdays since it covers CTZ.

 

The problem is that Long Island literally needs all the TPH it can squeeze out of the Main Line at this point. A weekday CityTicket would attract more riders - however, most of these new riders would be coming from Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, Woodside, and Jamaica, since these get frequent train service. East of Jamaica in Zone 3, not so much, because the stop spacing is very wide and there is no way in hell the LIRR is ever going to successfully expand or add parking (which people taking bus+subway are not interested in anyways). There wouldn't be enough capacity to handle all these people, leading to a collapse of the already heavily loaded system during peak hours.

 

The point of the high fares is to specifically discourage city riders, so that there is room for Long Islanders. Queens needs subway extensions, because it needs the 60K pph that a new trunk line would provide (the QBL is the 2nd-most utilized trunk line in the city). LIRR will never have this amount of room available.

[N6 Limited]

Why can't they allow an exception to do like the PATH train,extend the subway along the outer tracks and stop at Hollis, Queens Village and end at Belmont Park and the LIRR use the inner tracks?

[Vistausss]

@bob: Okay, got that!

 

@n6l: And what would serve LIRR riders from Hollis and QV then? They've just started to upgrade the waiting areas on QV LIRR so no way in hell they're gonna stop that work and convert it to a subway platform instead. And aside from that, there's not enough FRA clearance at some places along that stretch.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The extended subway would serve present riders from Hollis and QV. Most of the folks want the subway anyway, so this would be a godsend for them.

 

But the big issue here would be dealing with that textbook-example of bureaucratic over-regulation, the FRA. The FRA does not like it when transit and mainline rail run on the same tracks and even makes a stink over transit and mainline trains running too close to each other on the same r.o.w. - even if on separate tracks. They do allow waivers, but as far as I know, they require some sort of time separation. That's not possible as far as subways and LIRR sharing the same train line is concerned.