Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[bobtehpanda]

Extending the lines further East would not solve the problem as most people would still have to take the bus to the subway. The idea of a park and ride is to have somewhere to park your car so that you can use public transportation as well. A lot of people in eastern queens have vehicles and drive.

At that point city people are suburbanites. I use the bus and subway to avoid the costs of commuting with a car, but there are times ( in general) where simply driving to the subway is just so much better. Now, I don't drive to 179th or 169th, because parking is atrocious. But if it's a Sunday or after 7PM I''ll get right on the Grand Central to Union Turnpike, Park and walk right down into the subway. or comes, perfect.

 

On the way back I can take the or , get off at Union Turnpike, walk to the car, get on the GCP in no time. As opposed to staying on the train longer, then waiting for the bus, then a 20 min bus ride, and then walking home. (although walking is good for you) 

 

The point of extending the subway east is to reduce the amount of time you spend on a bus. The local trains on Queens Blvd have average speeds of 18 MPH, but a bus has an average speed of less than 10 MPH in this city. Plus, the inner sections of bus routes (like say, Hillside between Francis Lewis and Sutphin) are the slowest parts, so substituting those with bus rides would be even faster.

 

I live on the county line, so I would know what suburban life is like and how much better a car can be. That still doesn't change the fact that a subway extension would be infinitely more useful.

[Mtatransit]

P+R is not needed, but subway extension is needed, it could reduce cost in the long term, N6 limited, if subway was extended furthur the chance of finding a seat on the N6 will be larger in Jamaica. But maybe its going to take 15 year for the to built it.

[qjtransitmaster]

Extending the lines further East would not solve the problem as most people would still have to take the bus to the subway. The idea of a park and ride is to have somewhere to park your car so that you can use public transportation as well. A lot of people in eastern queens have vehicles and drive.

At that point city people are suburbanites. I use the bus and subway to avoid the costs of commuting with a car, but there are times ( in general) where simply driving to the subway is just so much better. Now, I don't drive to 179th or 169th, because parking is atrocious. But if it's a Sunday or after 7PM I''ll get right on the Grand Central to Union Turnpike, Park and walk right down into the subway. or comes, perfect.

 

On the way back I can take the or , get off at Union Turnpike, walk to the car, get on the GCP in no time. As opposed to staying on the train longer, then waiting for the bus, then a 20 min bus ride, and then walking home. (although walking is good for you) 

If subways were extended eastward then NICE would be able to route the N6 and other N buses away from Jamaica. Plus MTA would be able to create crosstown bus lines in queens like Q76 merged with Q77 or Q2 with Q17  as those going to Jamaica would switch out to subways sooner. MTA would be able to do more with less resources. And a SE queens to bronx route would become more feasible. Unless they cut the LIRR fare intentionally and relocate the Hollis station closer to bus routes and add more LIRR trains.

[N6 Limited]

P+R is not needed, but subway extension is needed, it could reduce cost in the long term, N6 limited, if subway was extended furthur the chance of finding a seat on the N6 will be larger in Jamaica. But maybe its going to take 15 year for the to built it.ss

I'm not so sure about that. The subway goes to 179th. but everyone gets off at 169th to have a better chance of boarding the bus. If the Subway was extended, People would Still get off at 169th to take the N6 because any station further is asking to get flagged. On the way to Jamaica people would get off onto the subway earlier though.

If subways were extended eastward then NICE would be able to route the N6 and other N buses away from Jamaica. Plus MTA would be able to create crosstown bus lines in queens like Q76 merged with Q77 or Q2 with Q17  as those going to Jamaica would switch out to subways sooner. MTA would be able to do more with less resources. And a SE queens to bronx route would become more feasible. Unless they cut the LIRR fare intentionally and relocate the Hollis station closer to bus routes and add more LIRR trains.

NICE could do that, they'd probably prefer to to save money, but the reason why the N6 gets the ridership it does is because riders are going to Queens to transfer to other buses like the Q17, Transfer to the Subway, and go to the Bus terminal for shopping in Jamaica etc. NICE and LIB already tried having N6 short turns at 179th street and both were unsuccessful. IF the subway was extended to Francis Lewis Blvd, I could see them having the N1 short turn there during rush hours for example, maybe the N24 but not the N6/N22.

 

It's kind of similar to the Beeline 60/61 they terminate at Fordam Rd where shopping and other destinations are. They could terminate at Dyre Ave but ridership would probably drop.

[qjtransitmaster]

I'm not so sure about that. The subway goes to 179th. but everyone gets off at 169th to have a better chance of boarding the bus. If the Subway was extended, People would Still get off at 169th to take the N6 because any station further is asking to get flagged. On the way to Jamaica people would get off onto the subway earlier though.

NICE could do that, they'd probably prefer to to save money, but the reason why the N6 gets the ridership it does is because riders are going to Queens to transfer to other buses like the Q17, Transfer to the Subway, and go to the Bus terminal for shopping in Jamaica etc. NICE and LIB already tried having N6 short turns at 179th street and both were unsuccessful. IF the subway was extended to Francis Lewis Blvd, I could see them having the N1 short turn there during rush hours for example, maybe the N24 but not the N6/N22.

 

It's kind of similar to the Beeline 60/61 they terminate at Fordam Rd where shopping and other destinations are. They could terminate at Dyre Ave but ridership would probably drop.

For beeline however only if MTA rerouted bx30 to Fordham would that work actually it would speed up the 60/61 as they can make it closed door shaving a good chunk off run time In the process and improving reliability. Bx28/38 can get service levels that it really needs and redundancy will be eliminated. FYI beeline 61barely gets any ridership on it's parts not shared with the 60 so to say 60/61 has high ridership would be misleading.

 

 

Also upgrading LIRR frequency to near subway like levels would accomplish the same thing at an even lower cost.

Edited December 14, 2013 by qjtransitmaster

[realizm]

The point of extending the subway east is to reduce the amount of time you spend on a bus. The local trains on Queens Blvd have average speeds of 18 MPH, but a bus has an average speed of less than 10 MPH in this city. Plus, the inner sections of bus routes (like say, Hillside between Francis Lewis and Sutphin) are the slowest parts, so substituting those with bus rides would be even faster.

 

I live on the county line, so I would know what suburban life is like and how much better a car can be. That still doesn't change the fact that a subway extension would be infinitely more useful.

 

If only this has happened Queens would be an interesting plane today. Jamaica would have grown in civil importance as downtown Brooklyn with public centers more than we have (and it has the infrastructural ability to do it today) and the demographics would have been pleasantly different today as there will be a higher trend of multiculturism even as it now compared to other neightborhoods across the US. Its OK to dream I guess so thata in my thoughts on if the Hillside Ave extension IND Second Plans or MTA Plan for action saw its completion before our time.

[bobtehpanda]

If only this has happened Queens would be an interesting plane today. Jamaica would have grown in civil importance as downtown Brooklyn with public centers more than we have (and it has the infrastructural ability to do it today) and the demographics would have been pleasantly different today as there will be a higher trend of multiculturism even as it now compared to other neightborhoods across the US. Its OK to dream I guess so thata in my thoughts on if the Hillside Ave extension IND Second Plans or MTA Plan for action saw its completion before our time.

 

To be perfectly honest with you, I think the 1968 SE Queens line was flawed for a number of reasons, number one being that the line would've been a PITA to connect to buses with or walk to.

 

The problem with Jamaica today is not the fact that it's not multicultural or has a lack of civic infrastructure; it's that unlike the other regenerated areas in the city (Flushing, Times Square, Harlem, Downtown Brooklyn), Jamaica never managed to successfully reduce the magnitude or the visibility of its problems. Even with the heavy police presence at Jamaica Station due to all the airport passengers, being harassed in that immediate area by the homeless is not completely out of the question, and waiting late at night for a bus is very iffy. Flushing may be dirtier than Jamaica, but it seems a lot safer than Jamaica (even if crime statistics may not bear this out).

 

I would go so far as to say the station house at Jamaica is actually part of the problem itself; it looks okay, but if the station house had been demolished as part of the station redevelopment around AirTrain, it would've been easier to integrate the current complex with the neighborhood. It also attracts the homeless, and the problem has gotten to the point where the LIRR now says the bathrooms are broken and redirects everyone to the AirTrain complex, even though the bathrooms are functioning.

[N6 Limited]

For beeline however only if MTA rerouted bx30 to Fordham would that work actually it would speed up the 60/61 as they can make it closed door shaving a good chunk off run time In the process and improving reliability. Bx28/38 can get service levels that it really needs and redundancy will be eliminated. FYI beeline 61barely gets any ridership on it's parts not shared with the 60 so to say 60/61 has high ridership would be misleading.

 

 

Also upgrading LIRR frequency to near subway like levels would accomplish the same thing at an even lower cost.

The LIRR is expensive. Also if you notice the bus routes are not really near the LIRR.

[TeeLow]

I think you may be onto something here, especially given that MTA is already extending the to the 34th St and 11th Ave. It also looks like you want to run this 9 service via the existing line in Upper Manhattan. Piggy-back onto the and lines, then connect them build new construction between 42nd and 72nd Streets for the 9. This would be a realistic way to do a new West Side subway line. It would also have a side benefit of connecting the to the rest of the A-division.

Wouldn't it be better instead to extend the train up to say 72nd St? That way you don't have to dead end the Manhattan "West End" line on the far west side at 14th St and there would be no need to transfer btn the West End Line and the extended just one station from 8th Ave. Extend the up to 72nd St and transfer there to the Broadway IRT. No need for two lines beyond that point. A small layup yard could be built under the WSH and maybe 3 track along the trunk for certain stretches to accommodate for layups. Maybe extend beyond 72nd St 1000 yards north for additional storage. I don't think the residents along West End Ave would be very happy with the tunneling and blasting and disruption along their west side "Park Avenue".

 

Just a thought...might be better to go up 10th/Amsterdam.

[Roadcruiser1]

The solution would be to extend all our current lines in Queens out to Eastern Queens. They did be extended up to the border of Nassau County. The stations near the border will have park and ride allowing car drivers and buses from Long Island to park at the train stations and ride the subway into the city.

 

I don't think the subway will be expanded into Nassau County currently. It's like the proposed subway expansion into New Jersey. Too many hurdles and technical difficulties........

[bobtehpanda]

The solution would be to extend all our current lines in Queens out to Eastern Queens. They did be extended up to the border of Nassau County. The stations near the border will have park and ride allowing car drivers and buses from Long Island to park at the train stations and ride the subway into the city.

 

I don't think the subway will be expanded into Nassau County currently. It's like the proposed subway expansion into New Jersey. Too many hurdles and technical difficulties........

 

As someone who lives out there, two things:

 

1. Springfield Boulevard is about the point where money for extending past it stops making sense. Buses past that point are usually only half full and very quick (and if you're one of those people who think the zoning can be changed and developers will start building condo towers out in Eastern Queens, I have a bridge to sell you)

 

2. Queens wants nothing to do with Park and Ride. Nassau riders can take NICE or the LIRR, because there isn't enough capacity in the Queens tubes for them to all drive up to the county border and switch to trains.

[N6 Limited]

As someone who lives out there, two things:

 

1. Springfield Boulevard is about the point where money for extending past it stops making sense. Buses past that point are usually only half full and very quick (and if you're one of those people who think the zoning can be changed and developers will start building condo towers out in Eastern Queens, I have a bridge to sell you)

 

2. Queens wants nothing to do with Park and Ride. Nassau riders can take NICE or the LIRR, because there isn't enough capacity in the Queens tubes for them to all drive up to the county border and switch to trains.

The QB line isn't full at all times and all trips are not to Manhattan. But even so, the locals have capacity.

 

Speaking of Springfield Blvd, that's the point where people get flagged by the N6 the most lol.

[bobtehpanda]

The QB line isn't full at all times and all trips are not to Manhattan. But even so, the locals have capacity.

 

Speaking of Springfield Blvd, that's the point where people get flagged by the N6 the most lol.

 

The problem is that the locals are still somewhat full entering Manhattan, and they're not really useful unless you live on the local line itself; no one is going to switch from a bus all the way out in Eastern Queens to a or and then a local at Forest Hills (the majority of traffic is headed either to Jackson Heights or Manhattan).

 

Hell, no one is going to P+R and take the local into Manhattan either.

Edited December 18, 2013 by bobtehpanda

[Juelz4309]

I was lookin at google maps flyin over the yards randomly and noticed that the 239 st yard for the 2/5 has a Loop track that extends perfectly around the 12/13 layup tracks that hold the 5s And Enter back into the yard leads...I Know its Never been done But since I live along wpr at 233 st The 2 Could use all day 5 service (via the loop)...the 2 gets Rediculously crowded even in midday...Id propose IF mta had the money how about 5 trains to Nereid ave in both directions

Just alternate em at 180 bet here and Dyre ave...Sometimes the waits bet 2s is 10 mins and better and theres no seats by time we get to 180 st...From 6am-10pm mon-fri...sort of the like the all day expresses on the 6 and 7 Lines! I Think this could work!

Wat u think????

 

 

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[Trainmaster5]

What you seem to be proposing is to shaft the Dyre riders for your own benefit. Having worked both the and lines extensively I can  state without hesitation that your idea is unnecessary. The ridership on upper WPR does not justify more service, much less added service. Think about what you're asking for and look at the big picture. You are proposing 20 minute waits for the Dyre riders.  Just to benefit some riders between 238th St and East 180th St ? That ain't gonna happen.

[Kamen Rider]

Juelz, what you are basicly saying is "screw the people who live along the Dyre line, I want a slightly less crowded train."

 

Why should they loose 50% of thier service so you can get a 33% increase?

[RollOver]

The is not going to run more service on each line if current service meets their loading guidelines. Sorry. As long as everybody is able to fit on trains and buses, then the current scheduled headway is fine as it is. Remember, no seats does not mean more service added. If people pass up trains and buses due to severely overcrowding, then yes more service must be required. Its quite clear that the doesn't exceed loading guidelines for that matter. If it ran any more than now, it would run many empty trains. Trust me, its a fact and I can point out all the reasons.

 

As for the , have you even took consideration as to how many people on the upper WPR want Lex service that badly? This is not about status quo. At the end of the day, I'm all for the to be responsible and see what saves money, not what wastes money.

Edited December 21, 2013 by RollOverMyHead

[Mtatransit]

No seats or crush loaded? Well if people want Lex Av they could always transfer to the at East 180 Street to get a seat but they dont which means they dont want Lex Av. AND its not all day express, its peak direction express toward manhattan am and toward outer pm, 

[Juelz4309]

Ok Im Not Tryin to "shaft" the dyre riders But its less stops on dyre then wpr...so to correct this how about every 3rd 5 outta 180 head up to 238!....the 5 runs pretty frequently so I think this isnt askin too much...and the reason why theres no deamand for Lex ave is becuase its never been offered on a regular basis outside of rush hours....im sure the demand is there But folks up this way are just used to havin direct westside access and transfer south of 180 for the eastside...I work on 42nd And id gladly pass over the 2 for the 5...the 5 makes less stops south of 149 compared to the 2...especially when its peak exp...its 50 mins on the 2 and with exp 5 its about 40 mins...Just sayin...

 

 

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[realizm]

This is why the MTA should have been on the time with the instead of being decades late on the SAS - We could have seen the SAS to the Bronx. From a structural perspective we wouldn't be having the IRT WPR congestion dilemma today. Phase 2 spur before 125th (as planned as of this year on paper) to a new 3rd Ave ROW (as the MTA Plan for Action stated in the late 60's before the fiscal crisis hit the Big Apple hard). Had that had happened, we would have better Bronx rapid transit service today. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Not only the gaps and whatnot, but have you (Juelz) considered how badly the gets slammed by weekend delays, that's is mostly impossible or just makes it uneeded for it at all. That is more often than not. Also, a lot of these people take the BxM11 bus, if they want the East Side.

[realizm]

The 149th Street-Grand Concourse interlock, thats the dent in the plan for the betterment of service on the IRT WPR. It's an overloaded congestion point. If that can be fixed or if a new line (SAS Bronx like they were supposed to) relieves the traffic by Bronx Line acquisition via new 3rd Ave construction, schedules can be perfect and the T/Ds will be able to keep better headways, make allowance for better timetables, and increase frequency of trains on all IRT lines. Wishful thinking.....

 

No matter what we do with teaking service patterns on the that uses that existing spur, nothing can really be done dramatically unless something comes out of the overengineered Bronx expansion spur at 116th Street on the SAS, Phase 2. (Right previous to the westard turn into 125th)

Is really a give and take and a catch 22 with this, as we tried to figure out this extensively and realized that it will be pretty tough to ad service to the WPR and Dyre from 2 tracks that the also uses, let alone the 2 WPR services. 

[RTOMan]

No just no...

[psoohoo]

I am not sure extending the QB line by itself is a viable solution. It will just funnel more customers into an already packed line during the rush hour. There is enough delays on the express, especially during the morning, due to the tight headways and adding more passenger is not going to help that. It will simply add to the dwell time as riders try to squeeze on and add to the delays down the line. The majority of riders already jump from local to express now at Roosevelt regardless of how much of a sardine can it can be. Can you imagine if this express/local arrangement was extended further. It will simply add to the delays entering Forest Hills and at whatever the designated express stops are.

 

This will work if there is a way to convince rider NOT to switch. But GOOD LUCK with that.

Edited December 22, 2013 by psoohoo

[Kamen Rider]

There are 10 mintues between Ms in the middle of the rush hour, you don't see me or anone else demanding rerouting Curlys because the trains can fill up quickly.