Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[BxM4Woodlawn]

Comments in blue.

I said the was express between 59th St and Canal St. it's still local north of 59th

[CenSin]

I said the was express between 59th St and Canal St. it's still local north of 59th

But WHY?!

[BxM4Woodlawn]

But WHY?!

because you already have the going Local

[Q43LTD]

because you already have the going Local

So you want people to wait 20 minutes for a train while an passes them by? There's a reason why there's late night service...

[RollOver]

because you already have the going Local

 

Wow, all that for three stops? You have an obsession over express=faster, do you? Smh.

[CenSin]

because you already have the going Local

Let's use numbers here. During the day, the runs trains every 10 minutes, and the runs trains every 6 minutes. That converts to 6 trains per hour for the and 10 trains per hour for the . In an hour, local stations along 8 Avenue see 16 trains per hour or about one train every 3 minutes and 45 seconds. During peak hours, express stations see trains at 7 minute intervals or 8~9 trains per hour. Along with the and , these stations see 24~25 trains per hour during the peak or a train every 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

 

During the night, the does not run. The and serves the local stations instead at 20-minute intervals. That means approximately every 10 minutes, there will be an or train and the average wait time will be 5 minutes for both express and local stations. If you make the express, however, 3 local stations will lose 50% of the service and suffer 10-minute waits on average. Running express will save the train about 5 minutes at the cost of approximately 5 minutes at the 3 local stations. Bear in mind that the only extends outside of Manhattan in one direction: towards Queens. The significant portion of passengers who actually want to go to the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Rockaways will have to wait an everage of 10 minutes for an train to go one station and then wait another average 10 minutes for an .

 

To sum up your proposal: you believe that saving 5 minutes justifies doubling the waiting time at local stations from an average of 5 minutes to 10.

 

EDIT: Let's not forget that work trains and maintenance crews need to have some space during the not-so-busy night to get work done. Having more tracks in active use than necessary slows down necessary work.

Edited June 17, 2014 by CenSin

[Union Tpke]

The 2 was made into a late night local to help out the 1. Same thing with how the 6 was brought to Brooklyn Bridge while the 4 continued to run local. At 20 minute intervals, having only one local on both Manhattan IRT trunks would result in longer wait times and more transfers for service to/from Brooklyn since neither the 1 or 6 run there. That's why starting at the end of the year, the Q will also run local along Broadway to help out the N.

 

You can argue for a Culver Express, but you'll never get the G to run that service. It doesn't run into Manhattan, so riders will avoid it for the F.

the G doesn't have access to the 4 track portion of the Culver due to a lack of switches, only the three track express portion. Also, no one would ride the G express.

About BXM4's post. I will omly respond to the few ideas that are not abysmal I definitely agree there needs to be more express service, instead of starting early (I think ot starts at 3PM or something) the service should run till later hours 8 at least I support an extension but not to court st, maybe to Atlantic ave but still keep the D as a local. How do you expect to terminate express at X there is no express platform there Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

There are switches and there are tracks for them to relay at Culver Yard. I do not recommend it.

[Lance]

the G doesn't have access to the 4 track portion of the Culver due to a lack of switches, only the three track express portion. Also, no one would ride the G express.

That's my point. The G could only run express between Avenue X and Church Av. Any potential time savings would be lost waiting for the F train for Manhattan-bound service.

[CenSin]

That's my point. The G could only run express between Avenue X and Church Av. Any potential time savings would be lost waiting for the F train for Manhattan-bound service.

The can't even run express from Church Avenue to Avenue X. In order to do so, it must also skip 4 Avenue, Prospect Park, and Fort Hamilton Parkway, since the first opportunity for the to run express is through the switch west of 4 Avenue. The second opportunity lies between Ditmas Avenue and 18 Avenue, so it will only be express from 18 Avenue to Avenue X.

[Union Tpke]

lets stop discussing that forbidden proposal

[MTA Dude]

lets stop discussing that forbidden proposal

 

Yeah lets discuss something else.

[itmaybeokay]

There's a new website that lets you easily design your own transit system overlaid on an actual map.


http://www.transitmix.net/

 

Apparently this is only for buses. I am dumb. 

Edited June 20, 2014 by itmaybeokay

[Snowblock]

Just a couple of PRACTICAL observations which I need to point out:

 

There's a good reason why the is express and the is local on CPW at night. It is because there are SCHEDULED connections at 59 St on the 20 minute headways so that riders can make two-way transfers between the two branches. In reality, overnight flagging delays mean that not every single transfer can be made, but when it does, it saves riders from having to wait 10+ minutes to change between the two lines. Also the reason why the is the express is because the also needs to run local from 59-Canal, meaning it HAS to be on the local track at 59 St. So if the were also local, that across the platform transfer wouldn't be possible. The and do something similar at Nevins St on the late nights.

Also, the reason the runs local between 36-Dekalb starting at 10pm is because 38 St Yard is where most of the work trains come in and out of, and the express tracks need to stay cleared for them, as they often have to wait for their slot to go over the appropriate side of the bridge. Also note that the first local in both directions follows the last of the night, so that there is a seamless transition of 6th Ave service stopping at Dekalb. Because of this, the one proposal I WOULD like to make is that the should run local Dekalb-36 all day on weekends ONCE the returns to the tube.

Also, in most cases there is NO reason to run express service all night long. This is why they're going to start running the local in Manhattan this December, as that's the only express run left that wasn't express for practicality purposes. The and need to remain local in order to provide 10 minute service on their Manhattan trunks. And in the case of the 8th Ave corridor, IF the were to run express all night, how would a rider get from 50th St to 181st St?

Edited June 20, 2014 by Snowblock

[Union Tpke]

Just a couple of PRACTICAL observations which I need to point out:

 

There's a good reason why the is express and the is local on CPW at night. It is because there are SCHEDULED connections at 59 St on the 20 minute headways so that riders can make two-way transfers between the two branches. In reality, overnight flagging delays mean that not every single transfer can be made, but when it does, it saves riders from having to wait 10+ minutes to change between the two lines. Also the reason why the is the express is because the also needs to run local from 59-Canal, meaning it HAS to be on the local track at 59 St. So if the were also local, that across the platform transfer wouldn't be possible. The and do something similar at Nevins St on the late nights.

 

Also, the reason the runs local between 36-Dekalb starting at 10pm is because 38 St Yard is where most of the work trains come in and out of, and the express tracks need to stay cleared for them, as they often have to wait for their slot to go over the appropriate side of the bridge. Also note that the first local in both directions follows the last of the night, so that there is a seamless transition of 6th Ave service stopping at Dekalb. Because of this, the one proposal I WOULD like to make is that the should run local Dekalb-36 all day on weekends ONCE the returns to the tube.

 

Also, in most cases there is NO reason to run express service all night long. This is why they're going to start running the local in Manhattan this December, as that's the only express run left that wasn't express for practicality purposes. The and need to remain local in order to provide 10 minute service on their Manhattan trunks. And in the case of the 8th Ave corridor, IF the were to run express all night, how would a rider get from 50th St to 181st St?

Great explanation Snowblock! Another thing that I have learned from you.

Just a question but why is there a D train that starts at Broadway Lafayette?

[RollOver]

 

IF the were to run express all night, how would a rider get from 50th St to 181st St?

 

Exactly. Simply put, once its shorten version isn't running at all, the full itself makes every single stop along its entire route (with a shuttle train running between Euclid and Lefferts to continuously keep the 20 minute headways). Also, fully agreed with everything else you said.

Edited June 20, 2014 by RollOver

[Snowblock]

Great explanation Snowblock! Another thing that I have learned from you.

Just a question but why is there a D train that starts at Broadway Lafayette?

For a similar reason - 9PM is when the work trains coming out of 38 St Yard first get staged - first they come down the ramps into 9th Ave (both levels) and then wait for a slot to change directions. Having an in service come through the middle of this would get in the way, so there's one train which gets sent via the Culver line, and goes in service at BL (since that is the first station where the train won't get delayed by all of the customers asking "are you an ? Well do you go to this station? etc" questions. It means there's a 20 minute gap in service in Brooklyn, but maintains the 10 minute level of service in Manhattan & Bronx.

[Union Tpke]

For a similar reason - 9PM is when the work trains coming out of 38 St Yard first get staged - first they come down the ramps into 9th Ave (both levels) and then wait for a slot to change directions. Having an in service come through the middle of this would get in the way, so there's one train which gets sent via the Culver line, and goes in service at BL (since that is the first station where the train won't get delayed by all of the customers asking "are you an ? Well do you go to this station? etc" questions. It means there's a 20 minute gap in service in Brooklyn, but maintains the 10 minute level of service in Manhattan & Bronx.

thanks, also do you guys have a schedule for example when a garbage train would go on Queens Blvd?

[AndrewJC]

There's a good reason why the is express and the is local on CPW at night. It is because there are SCHEDULED connections at 59 St on the 20 minute headways so that riders can make two-way transfers between the two branches. In reality, overnight flagging delays mean that not every single transfer can be made, but when it does, it saves riders from having to wait 10+ minutes to change between the two lines. Also the reason why the is the express is because the also needs to run local from 59-Canal, meaning it HAS to be on the local track at 59 St. So if the were also local, that across the platform transfer wouldn't be possible. The and do something similar at Nevins St on the late nights.

 

But the 2 and 4 both run local south of Nevins at night, so the analogy isn't perfect.

 

The A and D could still make connections at 59th and both run local - the D would have to pull into 59th on the express track and then cross to the local. (That's for northbound - reverse it for southbound.) That way, if the D is running a minute late and misses its connection with the A, the people going to local stops aren't stuck with a 19 minute wait for the next A - and the express stops are far enough apart that walking from 59th or 125th isn't a realistic option for most.

[Snowblock]

Yes it is. Over night, the only service going to Flatbush is the and the only service going to New Lots is the . If you have a customer on the east side who wants President St, or a customer coming from the west side going to Pennsylvania Ave, they could both get on their proper train at Nevins St. For all stations from Atlantic to Franklin, customers who need the proper branch can wait for the or the right behind it.

You COULD do the same thing with the and , by having the cross from 4 to 2 north of 59 St, but CPW gets VERY little ridership overnight, meanwhile the Concourse branch is always busy, so it benefits more people to just leave the on 4 up to 145 and avoid a delay with the being right behind the all the way up. Remember, even during the day on weekends, CPW only have one service running every 10 minutes, and the handles it just fine. Even judging by how empty those S/B PM 's are in the Bronx (almost all riders will pass up a to wait for the next behind it), there seems to be very little travel between Concourse and CPW stations. BTW - those ' s will almost ALWAYS beat the following to 6th Ave, so even god forbid they make local stops, it is not faster to wait for the .

Oh and if that connection gets missed resulting in a 19 minute wait for the next , 59 St tower will usually have that make local stops anyway.

[Wallyhorse]

For a similar reason - 9PM is when the work trains coming out of 38 St Yard first get staged - first they come down the ramps into 9th Ave (both levels) and then wait for a slot to change directions. Having an in service come through the middle of this would get in the way, so there's one train which gets sent via the Culver line, and goes in service at BL (since that is the first station where the train won't get delayed by all of the customers asking "are you an ? Well do you go to this station? etc" questions. It means there's a 20 minute gap in service in Brooklyn, but maintains the 10 minute level of service in Manhattan & Bronx.

To me, that is stupid.  They should just have that run via the and make it clear that it is a TRAIN VIA CULVER to 205th Street.  If people are THAT stupid, it is THEIR stupidity for not paying attention.

 

My way of running it would be for what I was always told growing up in the '70s: PAY ATTENTION. 

[RollOver]

To me, that is stupid.  They should just have that run via the and make it clear that it is a TRAIN VIA CULVER to 205th Street.  If people are THAT stupid, it is THEIR stupidity for not paying attention.

 

My way of running it would be for what I was always told growing up in the '70s: PAY ATTENTION. 

 

This isn't about Wally-horsing the railroad. It's to make things as easy for the passengers to comprehend as possible.

[Snowblock]

To me, that is stupid.  They should just have that run via the and make it clear that it is a TRAIN VIA CULVER to 205th Street.  If people are THAT stupid, it is THEIR stupidity for not paying attention.

 

My way of running it would be for what I was always told growing up in the '70s: PAY ATTENTION. 

Yes, they are that stupid, and it's covering a corridor with some of the worst customers in the entire city. And that usually runs up the express track in Brooklyn, so it wouldn't just be a " via the " it would be a " making only a couple of the stops and then we're gonna be a regular once we get to W4" and now half of those customers who were already on board want 14 or 23 St. Not worth the headache especially when the is still running regular headways and doesn't need an extra train in service.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Snowblock

[RollOver]

Even judging by how empty those S/B PM 's are in the Bronx (almost all riders will pass up a to wait for the next behind it), there seems to be very little travel between Concourse and CPW stations. BTW - those ' s will almost ALWAYS beat the following to 6th Ave, so even god forbid they make local stops, it is not faster to wait for the .

 

I don't get those Concourse riders, why can't they at least just hop on the and then get off at 145/125 for the expresses...but even then, the CPW local run really is faster whenever the and/or is more than 10 minutes away. Makes no sense wasting time for the express running 5-10 minutes late...

[Snowblock]

Some people just have the "the express is faster, no matter what" mentality stuck in their heads so deep that they can not think reasonably when commuting. The absolute dumbest are the riders on the S/B who will run onto the at Kings Highway....or even worse, Sheepshead Bay, a corridor where the is GUARANTEED to beat the to Brighton Beach, and will trail the by such little time that it isn't worth the effort to even change trains if going to Sheepshead. I remember a couple years ago when I was working the on a Saturday and a GO had us turning at 42 St, and a train came in across the platform and these 3 women ran off and asked me if 59 St was next and I said "yes but we aren't leaving yet so get back on the " and they didn't. Instead they sat in my train for 4 minutes until we got starting lights, and sure enough, got off at 59 St. Not only was that long gone, but now they have two extra levels to exit.

[MHV9218]

I remember a couple years ago when I was working the on a Saturday and a GO had us turning at 42 St, and a train came in across the platform and these 3 women ran off and asked me if 59 St was next and I said "yes but we aren't leaving yet so get back on the " and they didn't. Instead they sat in my train for 4 minutes until we got starting lights, and sure enough, got off at 59 St. Not only was that long gone, but now they have two extra levels to exit.

 

That's a special kind of idiocy to ignore you mentioning the hold, but larger than that, the notion that the Lex express is faster than the Lex local uptown is very iffy. Too many times I have been dumb enough to hop off my at 14th for the express, transfer back at 86th, and get on the exact same I was on before. At most, there is a one train time savings, and even that's rare. As for the (A)/©, the is always comparably fast if not faster within Manhattan, and it always amuses me watching throngs of people race from the to the for no good reason. The only express that makes a big difference is the 7th Ave.