Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure

[LGA Link N Train]

9 minutes ago, CenSin said:

With the continued growth of the area, one wonders if the flat junction at Myrtle Avenue will have to be redone. Unlike the junction east of Franklin Avenue which still separates traffic going in different directions, each crossing potentially stops all other traffic through the junction. I’ve thought of a proposed fix:

(A bit of a crude addition to Vanshnookenraggen’s “accurate” track map, which I used because I couldn’t be bothered to draw all the other things on the map. Some things had to be moved around.)

Perhaps something like this will increase capacity through the Myrtle Avenue station. The one remaining factor that needs to be addressed after would be the East River crossing. If relaxing the signals to allow for higher speeds is not possible, then a much more expensive project would be necessary to bring more capacity between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

I remember a similar proposal I made to this one. Sadly I lost it. However, i'd change up a few things

[CenSin]

25 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

I remember a similar proposal I made to this one. Sadly I lost it. However, i'd change up a few things

There are also other alternatives I considered based on my diagram in combination or alone.

1. Remove the southbound track from the upper level and extend the island platform over the track way to make a wide side platform for the upper level.
2. Retain the original northbound track connection as a storage track or for other reroutes. (It is currently grayed out on my diagram.)
3. Build only the pocket track at Myrtle–Wyckoff Avenues to save on cost (although most of the requisites are there already and shouldn’t be more expensive than building an entirely new structure over Lewis Avenue).
4. Build a ramp from the eastbound local track (lower level) and fly it over Willoughby Avenue, leaving the upper level abandoned as it is now. Manhattan-bound traffic would continue to use the present connection.

[Lawrence St]

What we could have done for the shutdown was return the the upper level at Myrtle-Bway to service and restore the tracks leading up to that level.

 

After this, I would connect the Metro-bound track of the upper level to the lower level Jamiaca-bound track just before the station, same with the Manhattan bound track. The relives some of the pressure at that Junction.

[MysteriousBtrain]

41 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

What we could have done for the shutdown was return the the upper level at Myrtle-Bway to service and restore the tracks leading up to that level.

 

After this, I would connect the Metro-bound track of the upper level to the lower level Jamiaca-bound track just before the station, same with the Manhattan bound track. The relives some of the pressure at that Junction.

This almost was a good idea until you said the bold. We don't need to rebuild the Manhattan section.

[Wallyhorse]

On 4/17/2018 at 1:16 PM, Lance said:

Obviously so trains can terminate at Atlantic Av. Can't you read?

In all seriousness, there was no justification in keeping the old Snediker Ave alignment for Atlantic Av. I doubt that in the decades since the Fulton St elevated was torn down that the Broadway/Canarsie alignment was used that much. Definitely not enough for the full Fulton/Canarsie six-track layout. In fact, the last time said connection was used in regular scheduled service was in 1976 when the Broadway  was eliminated. I know everyone likes to think that as long as the structure still exists, it can still be useful someday. While a nice thought, it doesn't take into account maintenance costs and a structure that sees very little use in several decades, not years, decades, will be seen as a waste and will be eliminated, as it was back in 2001.

If the needs to run on the eastern end of the Canarsie line, it can terminate at Rockaway Pkwy. Remember, there will be fewer trains running during the closure than normal. There's no need to completely rebuild a section of track that will become obsolete as soon as the project ends.

Rebuilding Atlantic Avenue to four tracks (NOT including the Snediker section, which would ONLY be rebuilt if you went to six tracks and THEN ONLY to terminate/store trains on that part) could actually be part of a longer-term plan (after the resumes normal service) where you could have a new train operate from Rockaway Parkway to 96th Street-2nd Avenue (and eventually 125th/Lex) as a 5TPH line via Canarsie, Broadway-Brooklyn and the 6th Avenue line while some service can be short-turned at Atlantic Avenue and further down the road, if you can connect Chrystie to the SAS via 2nd Avenue.  This potentially can be a 24/7 line.  

[Lawrence St]

5 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

This almost was a good idea until you said the bold. We don't need to rebuild the Manhattan section.

So you would want not have a cross-platform transfer at Myrtle?

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

So you would want not have a cross-platform transfer at Myrtle?

Draw.

[SpeonkTheMighty]

Any ideas of using the Express Track between Broadway Junction and Myrtle Avenue for the  to use during the shutdown or the  to run between Canarsie and Broadway Junction and via the  to Essex or Broad Street? Maybe the , , or  can cover up local stops between Broadway Junction to Marcy Avenue.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 4/12/2018 at 9:40 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Actually, I would designate those as ( T ) and run them to 96th Street-2nd Avenue

Actually, I would run said T trains to 179th St-Jamaica because there is no pressing need to run them to 96th Street-2nd Avenue, while there is a pressing need to have as many trains as possible serving Court Square. And yes, you are expecting too much if you think people will ride the   all the way down to Fulton and switch to the trains serving Atlantic-Barclays via an OOS transfer. 

9 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Rebuilding Atlantic Avenue to four tracks (NOT including the Snediker section, which would ONLY be rebuilt if you went to six tracks and THEN ONLY to terminate/store trains on that part) could actually be part of a longer-term plan (after the resumes normal service) where you could have a new train operate from Rockaway Parkway to 96th Street-2nd Avenue (and eventually 125th/Lex) as a 5TPH line via Canarsie, Broadway-Brooklyn and the 6th Avenue line while some service can be short-turned at Atlantic Avenue and further down the road, if you can connect Chrystie to the SAS via 2nd Avenue.  This potentially can be a 24/7 line.  

Because we need to be treating the subway like a giant system of Ubers, by doing even more reverse-branching, yes?

Let me be clear that I like the idea of running a limited 6th Ave service to/from Canarsie in addition to the  - while the 14th Street tubes are shut down. This is partially because the  will be running significantly less service, even with both tubes shut at the same time. But once the work is finished, the  will be back to its regular headways, or will possibly run even more frequently, and then there won’t be the capacity (or need) for another service at the outer end of the line.

39 minutes ago, SpeonkTheMighty said:

Any ideas of using the Express Track between Broadway Junction and Myrtle Avenue for the  to use during the shutdown or the  to run between Canarsie and Broadway Junction and via the  to Essex or Broad Street? Maybe the , , or  can cover up local stops between Broadway Junction to Marcy Avenue.

No need to run extra service to Broad or Essex. In fact, it would be disruptive to turn trains at Essex with trains running through to both Broad and 6th Avenue.

[RR503]

9 hours ago, SpeonkTheMighty said:

Any ideas of using the Express Track between Broadway Junction and Myrtle Avenue for the  to use during the shutdown or the  to run between Canarsie and Broadway Junction and via the  to Essex or Broad Street? Maybe the , , or  can cover up local stops between Broadway Junction to Marcy Avenue.

They won't for three reasons. 

1. They're thinking of terminating some (m)s at Bway Jct, so using the middle track there would not be conducive to smooth operation.

2. Express service only works when trains can pass each other. Given the (j)'s long headways, no such thing could happen. You'd just end up with pairs of (j)s running closer into Manhattan/beyond Bway J. 

3. We need all the service we can get at the Jamaica line's local stations. They will be the main alternatives to the (l), so unless you're into platform crowding, running any exp service during the shutdown is a patently bad idea. 

[biGC323232]

10 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Actually, I would run said T trains to 179th St-Jamaica because there is no pressing need to run them to 96th Street-2nd Avenue, while there is a pressing need to have as many trains as possible serving Court Square. And yes, you are expecting too much if you think people will ride the   all the way down to Fulton and switch to the trains serving Atlantic-Barclays via an OOS transfer. 

Because we need to be treating the subway like a giant system of Ubers, by doing even more reverse-branching, yes?

Let me be clear that I like the idea of running a limited 6th Ave service to/from Canarsie in addition to the  - while the 14th Street tubes are shut down. This is partially because the  will be running significantly less service, even with both tubes shut at the same time. But once the work is finished, the  will be back to its regular headways, or will possibly run even more frequently, and then there won’t be the capacity (or need) for another service at the outer end of the line.

No need to run extra service to Broad or Essex. In fact, it would be disruptive to turn trains at Essex with trains running through to both Broad and 6th Avenue.

I agree....They should run a few extra 's in and out of Rkwy pkwy during rush hours....It not like nobody will use it 

[Lance]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 10:40 AM, CenSin said:

With the continued growth of the area, one wonders if the flat junction at Myrtle Avenue will have to be redone. Unlike the junction east of Franklin Avenue which still separates traffic going in different directions, each crossing potentially stops all other traffic through the junction. I’ve thought of a proposed fix:

<map removed>

(A bit of a crude addition to Vanshnookenraggen’s “accurate” track map, which I used because I couldn’t be bothered to draw all the other things on the map. Some things had to be moved around.)

Perhaps something like this will increase capacity through the Myrtle Avenue station. The one remaining factor that needs to be addressed after would be the East River crossing. If relaxing the signals to allow for higher speeds is not possible, then a much more expensive project would be necessary to bring more capacity between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

Looking at the aerial maps of the area, the proposed setup would have the northbound Myrtle Ave line would have to branch off from Jamaica and run down Lewis Ave, then curve left to meet the remnant of the lower Myrtle Ave line. That would require about 1500 feet of new track and structure, which I imagine is not cheap. The other option, which would create a fourth track on Broadway to meet the former southbound Myrtle Ave track, would require reclaiming the entire block between Stockton and Myrtle Aves and possibly from Lewis Ave as well, depending on how much length is needed to branch off from Jamaica and reach the elevation of the original Myrtle Av-Broadway station.

[KK 6 Ave Local]

So I heard that the cars (car cars, not train cars) that would be added as a result of the  shutdown would require 3-4 bridges each with 4-5 roadways each to restore balance.

If those people flock to the  and  instead, there is one word to describe what will ensue:

Chaos

 

 

[KK 6 Ave Local]

I agree with putting  trains to canarsie. Maybe have  service run full-time and replace  on myrtle for the duration of the shutdown?

[officiallyliam]

18 minutes ago, KK 6 Ave Local said:

I agree with putting  trains to canarsie. Maybe have  service run full-time and replace  on myrtle for the duration of the shutdown?

There is nowhere near enough capacity - nor ridership - between Canarsie and Broadway Junction that warrants sending trains full-time to Canarsie.

The to Myrtle is a non-starter; the capacity crunch will be going towards 14th Street and Midtown, not Lower Manhattan.

[MysteriousBtrain]

38 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

There is nowhere near enough capacity - nor ridership - between Canarsie and Broadway Junction that warrants sending trains full-time to Canarsie.

The to Myrtle is a non-starter; the capacity crunch will be going towards 14th Street and Midtown, not Lower Manhattan.

Not that I am saying this [plan] will happen, but it can (and probably will) be possible for the to run less frequently than it does now, so at least some peak (m) can fit to the line to Canarsie

[KK 6 Ave Local]

51 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

 

The to Myrtle is a non-starter; the capacity crunch will be going towards 14th Street and Midtown, not Lower Manhattan.

I was thinking that too, but changed my mind last second for no good reason 😕

[officiallyliam]

1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Not that I am saying this [plan] will happen, but it can (and probably will) be possible for the to run less frequently than it does now, so at least some peak (m) can fit to the line to Canarsie

Yes, it will technically be possible. Some trains will be diverted to Broadway Junction to ease capacity constraints at Metropolitan and at Myrtle Junction; those trains could be extended to Canarsie. However, the fact that the Jamaica to Canarsie flyover tracks are 5 mph moves, and the need, therefore, to juggle CBTC and non-CBTC rolling stock on the - combined with the fact that ridership south of Broadway Junction is relatively low, and not where the shutdown capacity issues are - will likely preclude this from happening.

The addition of the MetroCard transfer from Livonia to Junius , as well as the availability of various Manhattan-bound transfers at Broadway Junction and Myrtle-Wyckoff, should be enough to cover riders from east of Broadway Junction heading to Manhattan during the shutdown. The focus should be on getting trains back to the most affected areas - Ridgewood, Bushwick, Williamsburg, and the 6th Avenue line - as quickly as possible, not on providing every theoretically available one-seat ride.

Edited April 27, 2018 by officiallyliam

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 4/27/2018 at 6:38 PM, officiallyliam said:

Yes, it will technically be possible. Some trains will be diverted to Broadway Junction to ease capacity constraints at Metropolitan and at Myrtle Junction; those trains could be extended to Canarsie. However, the fact that the Jamaica to Canarsie flyover tracks are 5 mph moves, and the need, therefore, to juggle CBTC and non-CBTC rolling stock on the - combined with the fact that ridership south of Broadway Junction is relatively low, and not where the shutdown capacity issues are - will likely preclude this from happening.

The addition of the MetroCard transfer from Livonia to Junius , as well as the availability of various Manhattan-bound transfers at Broadway Junction and Myrtle-Wyckoff, should be enough to cover riders from east of Broadway Junction heading to Manhattan during the shutdown. The focus should be on getting trains back to the most affected areas - Ridgewood, Bushwick, Williamsburg, and the 6th Avenue line - as quickly as possible, not on providing every theoretically available one-seat ride.

I suppose there isn’t really a need to have an -to-Canarsie service during the shutdown. It just seems like one of those things “that’s good to have,” though I guess it’s probably not worth bothering with if the Manhattan-bound flyover tracks can’t handle speeds greater than 5 mph. Though I get the feeling the  -to-  MetroCard transfer at Livonia/Junius may  not be used all that much. With the  being a local route with many stops through Brooklyn,  riders will probably forgo it in favor of the , unless they specifically need the East Side, which would then require transferring to the  (although the  is express, so there’s that).

[RR503]

14 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I suppose there isn’t really a need to have an -to-Canarsie service during the shutdown. It just seems like one of those things “that’s good to have,” though I guess it’s probably not worth bothering with if the Manhattan-bound flyover tracks can’t handle speeds greater than 5 mph. Though I get the feeling the  -to-  MetroCard transfer at Livonia/Junius may  not be used all that much. With the  being a local route with many stops through Brooklyn,  riders will probably forgo it in favor of the , unless they specifically need the East Side, which would then require transferring to the  (although the  is express, so there’s that).

I also think we need to consider what this will do to fleet requirements. It's looking highly probable that we won't have all the 179s for the shutdown, so extending a line to create a one seat ride already doable with a transfer will probably not be the best allocation of our limited resources. 

[Lawrence St]

But if we would have trains ending at Broadway Junction that would cause fumigation on the  and  which will already be at max capacity. It's best to reroute those trains away as much as possible. 

[RR503]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

But if we would have trains ending at Broadway Junction that would cause fumigation on the  and  which will already be at max capacity. It's best to reroute those trains away as much as possible. 

Have you not been alive the past eight or so months? Trains ending at Bway J use the middle track, ie do not fumigate. Given the small number of s (3ish tph) that’d be going to the Junction during the shutdown, I really don’t think terminal congestion of any sort there is a concern.

[TheNewYorkElevated]

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't understand the media hype around this shutdown. It hasn't started yet, and a lot of people are already worried. 

[RR503]

1 hour ago, TheNewYorkElevated said:

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't understand the media hype around this shutdown. It hasn't started yet, and a lot of people are already worried. 

Yes, there has been a lot of sturm und drang about all this, and yes, it's eating up coverage of other issues with less defined endpoints, but I don't think a certain level of public concern is unwarranted.

This is 225,000 people being displaced from their regular commutes. While a small fraction of subway ridership overall, their displacement onto other lines which have their own rider bases to please is going to upset whatever balance our system has today. It may not be the total armageddon some seem to think, but a cool 200k riders is nothing to laugh at, especially when seen through the light of the managerial incompetence and dysfunction that is currently plaguing the agency. 

Now, of course, there are plans to mitigate all this, but I think it is from those plans that much of the concern is coming. Between the lateness of the 179 order, the discord over street usage in Manhattan, the timers on the Williamsburg Bridge, and the notable lack of capacity at key transfer points, it is very possible that the MTA/DOT's already half-baked mitigation efforts will be thrown to the wind by circumstance, worsening the shutdown exponentially. 

Regardless, I think we should be focusing less on how to dehype the L shutdown to benefit other issues, and more on how to similarly emphasize the importance of other transit issues in NYC. In the last few years, the MTA has been thrown squarely into the centre of civic dialogue, and around the L -- which has become the poster-child for a system in decay -- that dialogue has been especially intense given the sheer scale of the effort that needs to be undertaken. Yes, many ideas that have got attention can best be described as batshit crazy, but at least we've shocked NYC planners/MTA out of their complacent, conservative transit thinking. We should be looking to perpetuate that sort of disruptive, irreverent thought, instead of trying to suppress it. 

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

Have you not been alive the past eight or so months? Trains ending at Bway J use the middle track, ie do not fumigate. Given the small number of s (3ish tph) that’d be going to the Junction during the shutdown, I really don’t think terminal congestion of any sort there is a concern.

My god, the rudeness.

I know trains use the middle track, I'm saying if an is switching to the middle track it would cause delays to the behind it. I've ridden the for the past 6 months and I'm seen this problem happen millions of times.