Declining bus ridership in NYC due to improved subway service, MTA official claims

[paulrivera]

I do happen to believe that word is spread around when the Eagle Team is out and all SBS routes see less evasion with them checking then on a regular basis so the numbers are quite flawed. However, i'm sure the Eagle Team is using their numbers as a basis for how intense they are on various routes. 

I do too. I've noticed that the drivers tend to run faster.

 

They should be running faster all the time. I can't stand when an SBS just sits at a random stop. If they end up taking a long enough amount of time, I end up pulling the Stop Request cord like a madman to wake the driver up. I don't play around when they drive 10mph with no traffic on a Select run either, I do go up front and tell them to drive faster.

[NewFlyer 230]

They must have the eagle team people out during certain timesof the day, because when I ride the Q44 during the evenings and weekends I never see them. I know there are plenty of folks out there who don't give a damn and will just walk through the back doors without paying. Personally I've always been iffy about SBS in general because it's basically gives passengers the option of having a free "Limited" route. If these eagle team guys or the NYPD are barely checking tickets what's the point of even caring about paying. But like I stated earlier I just don't buy the idea of the subway snatching riders off the busses just because a lot of people already transfer from the bus to the train and vise versa. The real culprit is poor management and poor enforcement of bus lanes. It would be so simple if buses were short turned when you have 4 buses literally bunched together and nothing on the other side. I also don't see what's the purpose of bus lanes if you have double parked cars and trucks in the lane. I see this all the time on the M15 and Q44 and it basically defeats the purpose of the lane itself.

[checkmatechamp13]

I will say that BusTime is an improvement in the sense that, if ridership goes down because people check BusTime and see that the next bus is 30+ minutes away (or some other large number like that) and say screw it, I'll just walk or take a cab/car service/Uber, at least it's better than having them wait the 30+ minutes. (I suppose some of it could be made up by people who were about to take a cab, but checked BusTime and saw a bus was 2 minutes away and decided to wait it out).

 

They used to cut buses short of their terminal years ago when two buses were near the terminal. The driver who was late would instruct the two or three passengers to board the other bus. That worked well. I bet that isn't done any more because of all the bus driver assaults. The MTA, probably with pressure from the unions, probably figure why take the risk that a passenger will give the driver trouble about being forced to get off.

 

A few blocks from the terminal, I mean for the sake of confusion, it's probably best to run them both there (if you're hitting a bunch of greens in a row and both buses are fairly empty, what's the point of stopping both buses to make the changeover?).

 

But I still see unscheduled short-turns. A few days ago, I got on a northbound M101 to 161st Street, and a southbound M5 to 42nd Street (the M5 was actually short-turned right in front of me. I was at 135th & Broadway and heard the dispatcher tell the B/O to turn at 42nd instead of 31st).

 

On a side note, I was taking a minibus in NJ last week, and the driver waited for another minibus to let some passengers off (in Union City), and they boarded our bus to continue to NYC, while the other minibus turned around to head back to Paterson.

[paulrivera]

They must have the eagle team people out during certain timesof the day, because when I ride the Q44 during the evenings and weekends I never see them.

I always see them at Jerome westbound in the morning when I'm on the Bx12 going the other way.

 

And yes, I did see them this morning as well.

[Dan1]

There were 112,373 more passenger vehicles registered in 2015 (last year stats avail) in NYC than there were in 2010. The greatest increase (+8.78%) was in Brooklyn. That may be part of the story regarding declining bus ridership.

https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/2126f16d-7ed2-4532-83eb-9a075931fbc0

[Via Garibaldi 8]

There were 112,373 more passenger vehicles registered in 2015 (last year stats avail) in NYC than there were in 2010. The greatest increase (+8.78%) was in Brooklyn. That may be part of the story regarding declining bus ridership.

https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/2126f16d-7ed2-4532-83eb-9a075931fbc0

Supposedly there's fewer cars on the road, but the elephant in the room is Uber and Lyft and other car services that people are using.  I go to meetings Downtown and all of those guys jump in Uber cars afterwards. It's crazy.  These are the folks that are likely sharing an apartment with six other people so that they can take Uber at liberty or they make well over $100,000.

I will say that BusTime is an improvement in the sense that, if ridership goes down because people check BusTime and see that the next bus is 30+ minutes away (or some other large number like that) and say screw it, I'll just walk or take a cab/car service/Uber, at least it's better than having them wait the 30+ minutes. (I suppose some of it could be made up by people who were about to take a cab, but checked BusTime and saw a bus was 2 minutes away and decided to wait it out).

Oddly enough, I don't see as many people using that as I used to.  I see it in Riverdale sometimes, but less so in Manhattan. It seems as if we have a ton of transplants moving in that just haven't taken the time to research, or they simply don't care and just take cabs everywhere.  

[Dan1]

Supposedly there's fewer cars on the road, but the elephant in the room is Uber and Lyft and other car services that people are using.  I go to meetings Downtown and all of those guys jump in Uber cars afterwards. It's crazy.  These are the folks that are likely sharing an apartment with six other people so that they can take Uber at liberty or they make well over $100,000.

Oddly enough, I don't see as many people using that as I used to.  I see it in Riverdale sometimes, but less so in Manhattan. It seems as if we have a ton of transplants moving in that just haven't taken the time to research, or they simply don't care and just take cabs everywhere.  

No way fewer cars on the road, those NYSDMV stats don't lie. It's not all Lyft or Uber either. My guess is that more New Yorkers want the travel freedom that a car offers even with the associated headaches like alternate side parking. Or once children start coming along they don't want to drag a baby through the bus or subway system. A lot of reasons but those are big increases in a city where owning a car is not cheap. The Brooklyn numbers work out to an average of +549 more cars per square mile, a big jump.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No way fewer cars on the road, those NYSDMV stats don't lie. It's not all Lyft or Uber either. My guess is that more New Yorkers want the travel freedom that a car offers even with the associated headaches like alternate side parking. Or once children start coming along they don't want to drag a baby through the bus or subway system. A lot of reasons but those are big increases in a city where owning a car is not cheap. The Brooklyn numbers work out to an average of +549 more cars per square mile, a big jump.

Well according to BrooklynBus there are. I don't buy it either.  What I see is more and more people who don't want to use the system and you can't blame them.  Subways are dirty and filled with crazy menacing characters, and the buses are either no shows or packed to the rafters. I'm not surprised with Brooklyn because of the type of folks moving into certain areas.   Even in my building, I may be one of the few people that uses the express bus or Metro-North (in other any form of public transit, even the more expensive options).  We've had new people move in and they all either get picked up or they drive.

[Dan1]

Well according to BrooklynBus there are. I don't buy it either.  What I see is more and more people who don't want to use the system and you can't blame them.  Subways are dirty and filled with crazy menacing characters, and the buses are either no shows or packed to the rafters. I'm not surprised with Brooklyn because of the type of folks moving into certain areas.   Even in my building, I may be one of the few people that uses the express bus or Metro-North (in other any form of public transit, even the more expensive options).  We've had new people move in and they all either get picked up or they drive.

Staten Island only saw a +4.15% increase in that same 2010 -2015 time period. That makes sense because we here on SI are already the most car-dependent borough so any increases will not be as large as you'd expect. It's new residents + people buying that 2nd or 3rd car. One family on my block owns 4 cars. Husband, wife, 2 daughters. We all have driveways and there is no Alt Side Parking on SI so it's not a problem.

[paulrivera]

Supposedly there's fewer cars on the road, but the elephant in the room is Uber and Lyft and other car services that people are using.  I go to meetings Downtown and all of those guys jump in Uber cars afterwards. It's crazy.  These are the folks that are likely sharing an apartment with six other people so that they can take Uber at liberty or they make well over $100,000.

Oddly enough, I don't see as many people using that as I used to.  I see it in Riverdale sometimes, but less so in Manhattan. It seems as if we have a ton of transplants moving in that just haven't taken the time to research, or they simply don't care and just take cabs everywhere.  

Does Uber/Lyft (I forget which one) still have the $5 carpool promo in Midtown during rush hour? Even I'd use that if I lived or worked down there.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Does Uber/Lyft (I forget which one) still have the $5 carpool promo in Midtown during rush hour? Even I'd use that if I lived or worked down there.

I believe they still do.  My girlfriend told me about it the other day.  Apparently one that goes down by Canal Street.  I would do it if it didn't require having a card on file. That's the only reason I still use taxis this way I can control how I pay.  Just the other day she was going to work.  The guy got into an accident, so she was forced to walk the rest of the way (short distance). When she checked her card, it read $48.00 or some crazy amount.  She called immediately to complain and it was taken off right away but still.

 

Staten Island only saw a +4.15% increase in that same 2010 -2015 time period. That makes sense because we here on SI are already the most car-dependent borough so any increases will not be as large as you'd expect. It's new residents + people buying that 2nd or 3rd car. One family on my block owns 4 cars. Husband, wife, 2 daughters. We all have driveways and there is no Alt Side Parking on SI so it's not a problem.

True.  It's not only new residents, but it's new residents with deep pockets.

[BrooklynBus]

A few blocks from the terminal, I mean for the sake of confusion, it's probably best to run them both there (if you're hitting a bunch of greens in a row and both buses are fairly empty, what's the point of stopping both buses to make the changeover?)..

It works best when there is a natural turn around. Say two buses arrive at the same time and one of them is ten or 15 minutes late and has only a few passengers aboard. The base saves five minutes in each direction, not having to go to the terminal and does not take the three or five minute layover. The bus is now on time to make its trip back. I was thinking specifically about Corbin Place on a weekend when there was no college in session. It was once done frequently.

 

Another similar example would be the B4. When I designed that Sheepshead Bay loop, I figured if two eastbound B4s arrived at same time at Shore Blvd and Emmons Avenue, the late bus could ask anyone who needs the loop to change buses and the bus could proceed straight along Emmons and save ten minutes. If no one needed the loop, no one had to get off. But they never did that. I see two buses following each other around the loop and that is just dumb because one of or both of them has to be late.

 

When I was in Niagara Falls a few years ago on the night of the Fourth of July fireworks, traffic was gridlocked and no bus was coming, so we decided to take the bus in the wrong direction a mile to the end of the route and then come back instead of waiting. The driver asked the passengers if anyone needed that last mile which went to some amusement that was closing or had closed. No one did, so the bus just turned around and went in the direction everyone wanted to go in. The MTA doesn't believe its drivers are smart enough to make such decisions. That's the difference between a system that cares about customer service and one that doesn't.

 

Well according to BrooklynBus there are. I don't buy it either.

Don't misquote me. I was only referring to traffic in midtown Manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Don't misquote me. I was only referring to traffic in midtown Manhattan.

Well then next time be clear. I still think you were trying to suit your agenda about Woodhaven Blvd.  The stats clearly show otherwise.

[BrooklynBus]

Well then next time be clear. I still think you were trying to suit your agenda about Woodhaven Blvd.  The stats clearly show otherwise.

I was very clear. You just made unwarranted assumptions because of your agenda that SBS is appropriate everywhere and is a step in the right direction although not perfect as you put it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I was very clear. You just made unwarranted assumptions because of your agenda that SBS is appropriate everywhere and is a step in the right direction although not perfect as you put it.

LMAO. Your issue isn't with SBS but rather with the lane situation.  I think you're mixing up the two.  Aside from that you seem to constantly complain about the spacing of bus stops.  Quite frankly I have no problem with fewer stops because that's a big reason why ridership continues to tank.  Some of these riders are just ridiculous.  They want friggin' car service via the bus.  No, you can walk a few blocks.  You don't need the bus to drop you right in front of your residence, and if you do then call car service.

 

I can't stand seeing buses with bus stops located one block apart.   That has to stop. We also must cut down on dwell times.  If you think those things are good then I guess I can understand your extreme opposition to SBS.  Those are the things that we need on all of our buses (off-board payment) and fewer stops.

[DaTransitMan4608]

I can't stand seeing buses with bus stops located one block apart. That has to stop. We also must cut down on dwell times. If you think those things are good then I guess I can understand your extreme opposition to SBS. Those are the things that we need on all of our buses (off-board payment) and fewer stops.

I'd say 125th would be a start. Problem is, every block has a transfer so eliminating stops may not be the best idea there. However the same can't necessarily be said for other routes so I agree with your point here.

 

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'd say 125th would be a start. Problem is, every block has a transfer.

 

 

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Yeah well have to cut some out.  It's ridiculous.  

[Moody]

What if the declining ridership is because of peoples transportation habits change? Maybe a couple of million riders moved to other places? Or changed jobs, bought cars, use uber or dollar vans ?

 

I thought this was the job of a traffic checker to monitor how many people board busses ?

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What if the declining ridership is because of peoples transportation habits change? Maybe a couple of million riders moved to other places? Or changed jobs, bought cars, use uber or dollar vans ?

 

I thought this was the job of a traffic checker to monitor how many people board busses ?

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

That's definitely a factor.  Also lots of people working from home more than in the past.  There's a few people I commute with daily, that only commute 2 - 3 days a week. 

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I believe there is an increase in drivers across the city. When i'm on the Bx12 during rush hour I'm astonished by the amount of vehicular traffic the bus is surrounded by between Southern Blvd and Boston Road. I start asking myself what could be done to get some of the cars off the road because bumper to bumper traffic is a safety hazard in addition to a disturbance for buses.

[BrooklynBus]

LMAO. Your issue isn't with SBS but rather with the lane situation. I think you're mixing up the two. Aside from that you seem to constantly complain about the spacing of bus stops. Quite frankly I have no problem with fewer stops because that's a big reason why ridership continues to tank. Some of these riders are just ridiculous. They want friggin' car service via the bus. No, you can walk a few blocks. You don't need the bus to drop you right in front of your residence, and if you do then call car service.

 

I can't stand seeing buses with bus stops located one block apart. That has to stop. We also must cut down on dwell times. If you think those things are good then I guess I can understand your extreme opposition to SBS. Those are the things that we need on all of our buses (off-board payment) and fewer stops.

I am not mixing up anything. Each SBS route is different. Some have exclusive lanes, others do not. No all have fare prepayment. Not all have wider spaced bus stops. Each issue is separate. You don't want bus stops one block apart. What type of blocks are you talking about? 600 feet blocks or 200 feet blocks? Are you one of those who want all buses to stop every quarter mile? You are being totally inconsiderate of people who have mobility problems, yet you complained about buses that don't kneel. So you should realize that some people have mobility problems.

 

You also don't realize that most people do not begin or end their trip on the street where the bus operates. Some already have to walk a quarter mile to the bus and you are asking that they walk more than a block once they get to the bus route on all routes. When the weather is bad, it is especially inconvenient.

 

We already have limited and SBS routes for those who don't care about walking extra. Sounds like you want to just eliminate all "local" bus service.

 

You say ridership is declining because the buses stop too often. I say it would decline more if you in effect eliminate all local service as you suggest because you would be driving more to use car services and Uber because people don't want to walk a half mile to a bus in the rain.

 

And I am not constantly complaining about bus stop spacing. I complained about a few SBS stops that are a mile apart which is too far in some cases.

 

Yes, some local stops are too close and they need to be reevaluated on a case by case basis. I have always said that. Lowest common denominator solutions like hard and fast rules don't make sense. There have to be exceptions for major land uses like schools and hospitals even if it results in rare cases of two stops close together.

 

Also, changing two block spacing to three block spacing won't save time in cases when all stops are heavily utilized. You just end up with fewer stops that each are one third more crowded. Similarly, if all stops are lightly utilized and most are usually skipped anyway, buses will not move faster with stops removed. People will just gave to walk further with their chances of missing a bus greater, increasing their trip time. So you are actually making things worse by eliminating those stops, not improving anything. Widening bus stop spacing only speeds up buses when all stops are moderately utilized.

 

And to say we need off-Board payment on all buses shows you know nothing about planning or economics. The S79 SBS doesn't have off-Board payment because there are not enough passengers to warrant the expense. It certainly couldn't be justified on lightly traveled routes like the B4.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I am not mixing up anything. Each SBS route is different. Some have exclusive lanes, others do not. No all have fare prepayment. Not all have wider spaced bus stops. Each issue is separate. You don't want bus stops one block apart. What type of blocks are you talking about? 600 feet blocks or 200 feet blocks? Are you one of those who want all buses to stop every quarter mile? You are being totally inconsiderate of people who have mobility problems, yet you complained about buses that don't kneel. So you should realize that some people have mobility problems.

You also don't realize that most people do not begin or end their trip on the street where the bus operates. Some already have to walk a quarter mile to the bus and you are asking that they walk more than a block once they get to the bus route on all routes. When the weather is bad, it is especially inconvenient.

We already have limited and SBS routes for those who don't care about walking extra. Sounds like you want to just eliminate all "local" bus service.

You say ridership is declining because the buses stop too often. I say it would decline more if you in effect eliminate all local service as you suggest because you would be driving more to use car services and Uber because people don't want to walk a half mile to a bus in the rain.

And I am not constantly complaining about bus stop spacing. I complained about a few SBS stops that are a mile apart which is too far in some cases.

Yes, some local stops are too close and they need to be reevaluated on a case by case basis. I have always said that. Lowest common denominator solutions like hard and fast rules don't make sense. There have to be exceptions for major land uses like schools and hospitals even if it results in rare cases of two stops close together.

Also, changing two block spacing to three block spacing won't save time in cases when all stops are heavily utilized. You just end up with fewer stops that each are one third more crowded. Similarly, if all stops are lightly utilized and most are usually skipped anyway, buses will not move faster with stops removed. People will just gave to walk further with their chances of missing a bus greater, increasing their trip time. So you are actually making things worse by eliminating those stops, not improving anything. Widening bus stop spacing only speeds up buses when all stops are moderately utilized.

And to say we need off-Board payment on all buses shows you know nothing about planning or economics. The S79 SBS doesn't have off-Board payment because there are not enough passengers to warrant the expense. It certainly couldn't be justified on lightly traveled routes like the B4.

Save the drama for someone else. I live on a hilly street and have to walk uphill or walk to a step street to get to the bus every morning. It's very tiring but that doesn't change my stance. People that are that immobile shouldn't be using buses. That's another problem. Look at the main riders on some lines. They're all elderly people! I mean come on. Buses are supposed to be for EVERYONE, not just the elderly. That's another reason I don't use the express buses as much. It takes way too long for them to board and get off. Too many drama queens that want door to door service. Then the driver has to get off of the bus to carry their bags off for them. Goes back to what I said about wanting car service. You want all of that get a taxi.

[paulrivera]

Save the drama for someone else. I live on a hilly street and have to walk uphill or walk to a step street to get to the bus every morning. It's very tiring but that doesn't change my stance. People that are that immobile shouldn't be using buses. That's another problem. Look at the main riders on some lines. They're all elderly people! I mean come on. Buses are supposed to be for EVERYONE, not just the elderly. That's another reason I don't use the express buses as much. It takes way too long for them to board and get off. Too many drama queens that want door to door service. Then the driver has to get off of the bus to carry their bags off for them. Goes back to what I said about wanting car service. You want all of that get a taxi.

Or Access-A-Ride...

[checkmatechamp13]

Yeah well have to cut some out.  It's ridiculous.  

 

The only ones that stand out as being too close together are Frederick Douglas & St. Nicholas. I don't go to East Harlem too often, but maybe Park & Madison as well.

 

The problem heading eastbound is that a lot of people get off at Park and walk east towards Lexington for the subway, and on the M101, it makes the turn onto Lexington and there's a stop where a lot of people board heading southbound (which is shared with the M103). So in other words, there's a lot of turnover at 125th & Lex, so I think two eastbound stops in that area is the lesser of two evils.

 

But yeah, St. Nicholas heading westbound can go. A lot of times when I wait there, I see "3 mins, 1 stop away", and in the meantime, I can see the bus sitting at the stop. It might cost me a bus sometimes, since there's times I run out of the subway at St. Nicholas and see a bus there, but it would be better overall (and if combined with a few stop consolidations further east, it might make up for it because buses would be slightly more reliable)

 

Also, changing two block spacing to three block spacing won't save time in cases when all stops are heavily utilized. You just end up with fewer stops that each are one third more crowded. Similarly, if all stops are lightly utilized and most are usually skipped anyway, buses will not move faster with stops removed. People will just gave to walk further with their chances of missing a bus greater, increasing their trip time. So you are actually making things worse by eliminating those stops, not improving anything. Widening bus stop spacing only speeds up buses when all stops are moderately utilized.

 

And to say we need off-Board payment on all buses shows you know nothing about planning or economics. The S79 SBS doesn't have off-Board payment because there are not enough passengers to warrant the expense. It certainly couldn't be justified on lightly traveled routes like the B4.

 

If the stops are heavily utilized, you still save the time lost on accelerating/decelerating for one stop (which might mean you save a full light cycle of 1-2 minutes).

 

And off-board fare payment doesn't work if the routes aren't that frequent. If you miss a bus on a route running every 5 minutes, as opposed to every 20, it makes a big difference. 

 

Or Access-A-Ride...

 

The problem is, Access-A-Ride is a lot more expensive than fixed-route service.

[BrooklynBus]

Save the drama for someone else. I live on a hilly street and have to walk uphill or walk to a step street to get to the bus every morning. It's very tiring but that doesn't change my stance. People that are that immobile shouldn't be using buses. That's another problem. Look at the main riders on some lines. They're all elderly people! I mean come on. Buses are supposed to be for EVERYONE, not just the elderly. That's another reason I don't use the express buses as much. It takes way too long for them to board and get off. Too many drama queens that want door to door service. Then the driver has to get off of the bus to carry their bags off for them. Goes back to what I said about wanting car service. You want all of that get a taxi.

So you don't like using local buses. You prefer express buses to the subway. You don't believe in cars. And now you state you don't use express buses as much. So how do you get around?

 

Many elderly can't afford taxis. Access a ride costs the MTA $50 per trip. You admit that on some bus routes mist everyone is elderly but you don't think the buses should cater to them. Do you realize how many inconsistencies and problems there are with what you are saying?

 

To Checkmate: There are few intersections where you have to wait two minutes until the light turns green again. Usually it's only 30 seconds., and in some cases a minute if a street is heavily used. Longer than a minute is usually where there is a separate turn cycle phase or more than two streets at an intersection. And at near side stops, some times the bus can pick up while the signal us red so stopping doesn't take longer. The chance of making additional lights because of fewer stood is slim since the dwell times are longer with fewer heavily used stops. So while there might be a small savings, it is not a great as you might think. And as I said, walking extra increases your chances of missing a bus.