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Via Garibaldi 8

Declining bus ridership in NYC due to improved subway service, MTA official claims

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Declining bus ridership in NYC due to improved subway service, MTA official claims

 

bus29n-1-web.jpg
There were 764 million bus trips last year, down from 776 million in 2015, the latest in a years-long decline.
(ADAMS IV, JAMES MONROE (FREELANC/FREELANCE, NYDN)
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Tuesday, March 28, 2017, 4:52 PM
 

A top MTA official claimed that bus ridership has plunged because subway service is getting better — a statement greeted with disbelief from City Council members.

 

“One of the major reasons, we believe, is competition. Essentially the subway has improved over the last 20 or so years,” said chief financial officer Michael Chubak, when asked about the years-long decline in bus ridership.

 

There were 764 million bus trips last year, down from 776 million in 2015, the latest in a years-long decline.

Councilman Ydanis Rodriguez, the transportation committee chair, said the reason is lousy bus service, not improvements on the subway.

 

“We get to the destination faster if we walk than if we take the bus,” he said. “Our buses are going slow.”

Chubak said the MTA would consider adding bus lanes outside of the select bus routes that already have them, and changing the spacing of bus stops.

 

“One of the obvious problems is traffic and congestion, which reduces bus speeds. And we’re convinced that higher bus speeds can help encourage ridership,” he said. “It’s a difficult challenge. There’s obviously a lot of congestion.”

 

The MTA also faced complaints at Tuesday’s budget hearing about bus bunching, when several buses show up at the same time, resulting in long waits and empty buses.

 

“It’s certainly the most frustrating feature for anyone who rides the bus,” said Councilman David Greenfield (D-Brooklyn). “You wait for an hour, and then three buses show up.”

 

He said the MTA should be able to use GPS technology to avoid the problem.

 

“We don’t know in fact that it can be done,” Chubak responded. He added that an app known as Bus Time at least clues riders in on when the bus is coming.

 

“While our customers may still be subject to bus bunching, now that we have Bus Time they at least have the information in their hands,” he said.

 

Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/declining-bus-ridership-due-improved-subway-service-mta-article-1.3011979

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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This makes little sense for communities where buses are the only option. I notice not a single mention of Uber, Lyft, or dollar vans in here either. I hope the MTA gets the hint and fixes some of the routes.

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This makes little sense for communities where buses are the only option. I notice not a single mention of Uber, Lyft, or dollar vans in here either. I hope the MTA gets the hint and fixes some of the routes.

It's laughable that they're now trying to justify the decreases in ridership on buses to "competition" from the subways.  Really?  The subways are a mess and the only reason people are cramming onto them is because despite how bad they are, for those that have no other options, they still beat the even slower buses.  Those who can get away with taking Uber and other car services are doing just that. My girlfriend uses Uber and yellow taxis just about everywhere she goes, and when she doesn't she usually will just walk. She always complains that the local buses by her are incredibly slow and I'd have to agree with that.  It takes 5 minutes to reach her place with a taxi versus a 20+ minute ride on the local bus that should really be more like 10 minutes with the limited stop bus, but the waiting and slow driving and changing drivers makes it unbearable at times. I haven't used the bus by her in quite some time as a result.

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Declining bus ridership in NYC due to improved subway service declining quality of bus service, MTA official claims

I have taken the liberty of correcting the title of the Daily News article, because the assertion that lower bus ridership is due to better subway service, when the bus network BY FAR covers more New Yorkers per square mile, is such utter bullcrap.

 

Sure, with Bustime you can track the buses as a customer (which is great for the rider), but Bustime has also taken dispatchers off the road, and now they make inane decisions about bus service in front of a computer screen from an office in East New York, without any regard to ridership.

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The part that has me laughing is the claim that subway service has improved.  From the same agency that reports increased delays each time subway performance is reviewed. Do they really think they're fooling anyone?  :lol:

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I have taken the liberty of correcting the title of the Daily News article, because the assertion that lower bus ridership is due to better subway service, when the bus network BY FAR covers more New Yorkers per square mile, is such utter bullcrap.

 

Sure, with Bustime you can track the buses as a customer (which is great for the rider), but Bustime has also taken dispatchers off the road, and now they make inane decisions about bus service in front of a computer screen from an office in East New York, without any regard to ridership.

This is actually something that we've haven't discussed much that has had a huge impact on bus service, and that's this idea of centralizing everything.  Some folks have talked about it and how having everything under one umbrella will be good for the (MTA), and maybe that's true, but it sure as hell hasn't been good for bus riders. As you said, you have everything coming out of East New York or one central location, and these people don't know a damn thing about the actual bus lines to make such decisions. The decisions should really come directly from the depot at all times, and it's unfortunate that they've lost control of that to some degree.  I think one of the reasons that I keep hearing customers yearn for the "old days" when companies like Liberty Lines were around was because it was small and more intimate, and more importantly, it meant more personal, customized service.  Now everything is just all thrown together and nothing improves unless there are a litany of complaints, and even then that may only be temporary.  The idea of one size fits all for all lines just doesn't work, but the (MTA) continues to try to streamline everything that way.

 

I originally thought BusTime was great and still think it's good from the point of being able to see where your bus is.  The only problem is that the (MTA) seems to be using it to cut service and cut overhead as oppose to improving it.  

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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Hmmm, partially true...

 

I do see more people taking the (R) train within Bay Ridge and less people on the B63 nowadays (​the B37 is so pathetic it doesn't even deserve consideration)

 

Now for the million dollar question:

Are more people taking the (R) train within Bay Ridge because the (R) has improved or because the B63 has worsened?

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Hmmm, partially true...

 

I do see more people taking the (R) train within Bay Ridge and less people on the B63 nowadays (​the B37 is so pathetic it doesn't even deserve consideration)

 

Now for the million dollar question:

Are more people taking the (R) train within Bay Ridge because the (R) has improved or because the B63 has worsened?

I would say they're both horrible, but it's really more about the fact that the buses are even worse than the subway, even with BusTime.  I deal with this scenario regularly when going to different places.  Sometimes I have a bunch of options, including the subway or the local bus or Metro-North with some backtracking.  Depending on where I'm at, if there are buses coming I'll chance it, but sometimes even if they are coming, I'll put up with the subway just because it's too risky.  Quite frankly I check the (MTA) website all the time now before I leave because the delays on both the bus and subway are out of control.  I had to go to the Bronx last night and you should've seen me checking BusTime, the subway updates and everything else trying to see which I should use to ensure I arrived to my destination on time.  It's gotten to the point to where if you don't give yourself a sizable amount of time, you will be late.

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This is probably true to a certain extent, mainly with the north - south bus routes in Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn routes like the B25, B41, B45, B38, B54, etc. And maybe the Q24 & Q56, but those are only a handful of routes out of hundreds in this ciity, I doubt people switching to the subway is the MAIN reason for declining bus ridership in this city.

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The part that has me laughing is the claim that subway service has improved. From the same agency that reports increased delays each time subway performance is reviewed. Do they really think they're fooling anyone? :lol:

It's just amazing how the MTA and DOT can get away with such contradictory statements and no one takes them to task for it. BusTrek based on bus time supposed to be used to keep the buses running on time. So why isn't this being done? Why are some poorly trained dispatchers making the system worse instead of better? It's because the MTA emphasis is on reducing overtime and not serving the customer.

 

They continue to paint SBS and exclusive bus lanes as the panacea to improving service while ignoring the fact that in many places the routes are as much as 70 years out of date. The problem is not solved by cutting routes in half or adding 30 minute shuttles. It is solved by doing comprehensive restructuring.

 

That is where I disagree with you Garibaldi by suggesting all control be given to the depots. That does nothing to help the long range situation.

 

Chubak is a very bright guy, but he is obviously misinformed when it comes to bus planning. Budget guys are never good at planning. Anyway, he can say anything he wants without repurcussions because he is retiring very shortly anyway. Then he will be replaced by someone else who is misinformed.

 

And what is the basis for your conclusion (Garibaldi) that bustime is being used to cut service?

Edited by BrooklynBus
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That is where I disagree with you Garibaldi by suggesting all control be given to the depots. That does nothing to help the long range situation.

 

And what is the basis for your conclusion (Garibaldi) that bustime is being used to cut service?

Tell me this... What does some guy in East New York know about an express bus out of Yonkers Depot?  The things that I've seen of late I've never seen since I started living in Riverdale or during the years that I've been riding express buses (over 10 years at this point).  When you have FOUR express buses running packed up together, there's a big problem. The BxM2 is supposed to run every 15 minutes to Riverdale during the rush, so that means if four of them are running together that you have SEVERE bunching, yet dispatch does nothing, or if they do, they literally just don't send some buses out for certain trips because I've had numerous instances where buses are scheduled that just don't show up ever, and this goes on for sometimes days.  

 

From what I've been told, in the old days, you would have drivers on standby so that if there was a problem where traffic was really bad and a guy was so late that he couldn't do his return trip, they would have a filler come in and take care of that trip, thereby allowing the other guy who was late to then attempt to get back on schedule.  They have either reduced or completely eliminated that set up and it definitely shows.  That's an example of what I was talking about earlier. On the local bus lines, you see tons of buses running "NOT IN SERVICE" or "NEXT BUS PLEASE", much more than you did before BusTime.  I've actually seen a dispatcher at Lex and 42nd numerous times when going to one of my coffee spots or heading to meetings Downtown and he sits there with a handheld device and tells B/Os to turnaround at "X" point or go out of service, etc.  The problem is the amount of buses that are turned around at a time is just absurd.  I think they let the situation get so bad that by the time they attempt to address it, you have a TON of buses in one direction and almost none in the other direction, and unfortunately that situation has only worsened with BusTime.  

 

The other problem now is that any time there is an accident or bad traffic, it takes FOREVER for that information to be relayed to the drivers, so now you get who knows how many buses stuck in that mess before they're told to do "XYZ" to avoid it.  Some things are better left not centralized.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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Tell me this... What does some guy in East New York know about an express bus out of Yonkers Depot? The things that I've seen of late I've never seen since I started living in Riverdale or during the years that I've been riding express buses (over 10 years at this point). When you have FOUR express buses running packed up together, there's a big problem. The BxM2 is supposed to run every 15 minutes to Riverdale during the rush, so that means if four of them are running together that you have SEVERE bunching, yet dispatch does nothing, or if they do, they literally just don't send some buses out for certain trips because I've had numerous instances where buses are scheduled that just don't show up ever, and this goes on for sometimes days.

 

From what I've been told, in the old days, you would have drivers on standby so that if there was a problem where traffic was really bad and a guy was so late that he couldn't do his return trip, they would have a filler come in and take care of that trip, thereby allowing the other guy who was late to then attempt to get back on schedule. They have either reduced or completely eliminated that set up and it definitely shows. That's an example of what I was talking about earlier. On the local bus lines, you see tons of buses running "NOT IN SERVICE" or "NEXT BUS PLEASE", much more than you did before BusTime. I've actually seen a dispatcher at Lex and 42nd numerous times when going to one of my coffee spots or heading to meetings Downtown and he sits there with a handheld device and tells B/Os to turnaround at "X" point or go out of service, etc. The problem is the amount of buses that are turned around at a time is just absurd. I think they let the situation get so bad that by the time they attempt to address it, you have a TON of buses in one direction and almost none in the other direction, and unfortunately that situation has only worsened with BusTime.

 

The other problem now is that any time there is an accident or bad traffic, it takes FOREVER for that information to be relayed to the drivers, so now you get who knows how many buses stuck in that mess before they're told to do "XYZ" to avoid it. Some things are better left not centralized.

So you are blaming the Operations problems on centralization? You may be correct. I wasn't only talking about operations but long range aspects as well such as planning. That's where you need the centralization. As far as Operations and the examples you have given regarding bustime, I do not know enough to give you an answer about that. But I can tell you this. Whatever decisions are made result from the goals the agency sets. The problems exist because the goals are to minimize operating costs that is reduce overtime regardless of the effect on service. So if a bus is late and you skip stops to get him back on schedule, theoretically you are reducing costs. If that means you wait 45 minutes for a bus instead of 30 minutes, that is inconsequential to those in charge. That is where the problem lies.

 

Yes many road practices that used to help service are no longer done and that hurts service. The practice you mention about fillers, I doubt is done any more. Not filling runs because of a sick driver was once unthinkable. I wouldn't be surprised if that is common place now.

 

Road dispatchers are virtually non existent today. Used to be two to four per route back in the fifties. They were the first to go when they started to cut maintenance and other costs. Dispatchers now are only at terminals where there are multiple routes. I wish I knew how they are using BusTrek. They showed me how it works and it looked like a good system to me so I don't know what's wrong. I believe Road Ooerations is grossly understaffed. They are good people and try their best. Unfortunately, it is not nearly good enough.

 

So to summarize, if they cared more about the passenger from the top, more would get done at the bottom. If drivers are rude, I believe that stems from poor morale which can also be corrected. As far as too many Next bus please since bus time, I have had that discussion with them and they agreed with me. And at least where I am, I have noticed much less use of it since our discussions.

Edited by BrooklynBus
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So you are blaming the Operations problems on centralization? You may be correct. I wasn't only talking about operations but long range aspects as well such as planning. That's where you need the centralization. As far as Operations and the examples you have given regarding bustime, I do not know enough to give you an answer about that. But I can tell you this. Whatever decisions are made result from the goals the agency sets. The problems exist because the goals are to minimize operating costs that is reduce overtime regardless of the effect on service. So if a bus is late and you skip stops to get him back on schedule, theoretically you are reducing costs. If that means you wait 45 minutes for a bus instead of 30 minutes, that is inconsequential to those in charge. That is where the problem lies.

 

Yes many road practices that used to help service are no longer done and that hurts service. The practice you mention about fillers, I doubt is done any more. Not filling runs because of a sick driver was once unthinkable. I wouldn't be surprised if that is common place now.

 

Road dispatchers are virtually non existent today. Used to be two to four per route back in the fifties. They were the first to go when they started to cut maintenance and other costs. Dispatchers now are only at terminals where there are multiple routes. I wish I knew how they are using BusTrek. They showed me how it works and it looked like a good system to me so I don't know what's wrong. I believe Road Ooerations is grossly understaffed. They are good people and try their best. Unfortunately, it is not nearly good enough.

 

So to summarize, if they cared more about the passenger from the top, more would get done at the bottom. If drivers are rude, I believe that stems from poor morale which can also be corrected. As far as too many Next bus please since bus time, I have had that discussion with them and they agreed with me. And at least where I am, I have noticed much less use of it since our discussions.

Well they admitted that when the service cuts took place back in 2010 that they weren't filling runs when drivers would call out sick as a way to mitigate costs, so the question really is how often are they doing it now?  The situation with road dispatchers is another interesting one.  Very few of them are out and about, and they place them in strategic areas where they can watch numerous routes simultaneously. For example, there is one posted by 3rd Avenue and 121st street regularly during the evenings at night for the Eastchester express buses.  Over the years there have been a litany of complaints about lines like the BxM9, and I myself have experienced severe waits for the BxM8 when trying to get to meetings in the Bronx.

 

For the Yonkers buses, they sometimes have a guy at 230th and Broadway, but then the B/Os know about it in advance so they all come late.  That's something else that's stupid. Why does dispatch tell the B/Os that they're going to be there?  There should be periodic spot checks and the B/Os should not know about them.  It keeps them on their toes that way.

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Well they admitted that when the service cuts took place back in 2010 that they weren't filling runs when drivers would call out sick as a way to mitigate costs, so the question really is how often are they doing it now?  The situation with road dispatchers is another interesting one.  Very few of them are out and about, and they place them in strategic areas where they can watch numerous routes simultaneously. For example, there is one posted by 3rd Avenue and 121st street regularly during the evenings at night for the Eastchester express buses.  Over the years there have been a litany of complaints about lines like the BxM9, and I myself have experienced severe waits for the BxM8 when trying to get to meetings in the Bronx.

 

For the Yonkers buses, they sometimes have a guy at 230th and Broadway, but then the B/Os know about it in advance so they all come late.  That's something else that's stupid. Why does dispatch tell the B/Os that they're going to be there?  There should be periodic spot checks and the B/Os should not know about them.  It keeps them on their toes that way.

As the bus dispatcher who worked for me told me, the dispatchers are all former bus drivers who were promoted and they are all friends. They don't really supervise. There is a lot wrong with the system. I once saw a dispatcher hold a bus for 30 minutes while 110 Kingsborough students waited 15 minutes for a bus to arrive. It was done for the sole purpose of giving the guy overtime. I know this because I questioned the dispatcher and he told me the driver made his last run for the day so I know he wasn't on a lunch break.

 

The bus could have made a round trip to the subway in the 30 minutes he waited. I wrote about it in Sheepsheadbites and notified numerous levels at the MTA including a letter to the Chairman and I never received a response.

 

I also heard that the reason buses weren't stopping to pick up passengers on Oriental was because the dispatcher was giving instructions for all the buses to run straight to the subway without stopping thinking that a bus stopping on Oriental once every 30 minutes was enough service for the few passengers who boarded there. That stopped after I complained. So the question also is how much worse are dispatchers making service because they are giving improper instructions or are doing favors for their friends.

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As the bus dispatcher who worked for me told me, the dispatchers are all former bus drivers who were promoted and they are all friends. They don't really supervise. There is a lot wrong with the system. I once saw a dispatcher hold a bus for 30 minutes while 110 Kingsborough students waited 15 minutes for a bus to arrive. It was done for the sole purpose of giving the guy overtime. I know this because I questioned the dispatcher and he told me the driver made his last run for the day so I know he wasn't on a lunch break.

 

The bus could have made a round trip to the subway in the 30 minutes he waited. I wrote about it in Sheepsheadbites and notified numerous levels at the MTA including a letter to the Chairman and I never received a response.

 

I also heard that the reason buses weren't stopping to pick up passengers on Oriental was because the dispatcher was giving instructions for all the buses to run straight to the subway without stopping thinking that a bus stopping on Oriental once every 30 minutes was enough service for the few passengers who boarded there. That stopped after I complained. So the question also is how much worse are dispatchers making service because they are giving improper instructions or are doing favors for their friends.

That's interesting.  I think it really depends on how buddy buddy the B/Os are with the dispatchers because there are so guys that definitely play games yet they are still around, so yes some of them have some strings that they can pull to say the least. I've also been told this by a few of my buddies that have been around for a while.  It's funny because the guys that I can't stand they know and can't stand them either, and they know that they play a ton of games and get away with it. For example, there's a guy that repeatedly shows up late on certain lines (we're talking 20 - 30 minutes late consistently) in order to avoid picking up people.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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87XXO.gif

 

Yeah, this one is going in the archives of my memory bank.....

 

I don't ever want to hear or see anyone convey to me that there isn't a clear bias between the bus vs. the subway in this city....

 

To me, it's irrelevant if the claim is true or false; it's not something you come out & make public as an MTA official..... It spits on the face of every single current or former rider of the system that has been negatively affected by the complete or partial service elimination of some bus route.... It's becoming fashionable as of late to tout the high usage of the subway in this city (Even when it's on the decline itself - but I aint one to gossip, so you aint heard that from me) & continuously point out how problematic bus service is & the declination of ridership system-wide on them.....

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From what I've been told, in the old days, you would have drivers on standby so that if there was a problem where traffic was really bad and a guy was so late that he couldn't do his return trip, they would have a filler come in and take care of that trip, thereby allowing the other guy who was late to then attempt to get back on schedule.  They have either reduced or completely eliminated that set up and it definitely shows.  

 

 

Liberty Lines used to keep at least one filler bus on standby in midtown during the evening rush to fill in in the event of severe gaps in service. It was even mentioned on their timetables. That continued for a bit after MTA takeover, then was eliminated.

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this might get some people angry but i think the other factor on why bus ridership is declining is the fact that the traffic policy is slowing buses down

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That's interesting. I think it really depends on how buddy buddy the B/Os are with the dispatchers because there are so guys that definitely play games yet they are still around, so yes some of them have some strings that they can pull to say the least. I've also been told this by a few of my buddies that have been around for a while. It's funny because the guys that I can't stand they know and can't stand them either, and they know that they play a ton of games and get away with it. For example, there's a guy that repeatedly shows up late on certain lines (we're talking 20 - 30 minutes late consistently) in order to avoid picking up people.

You want to hear about the biggest game of all? When I was in Operations Planning in 1981 and 1982, I was trying to get them to pay some attention to beach service which was absolutely atrocious at that time. The only statistics they collected at that time were for rush hour service figuring that was all they needed. I convinced them to let me go out with a staff of like ten people and do all day counts on the weekend for the B49 one day and the B68 on another because I wanted it documented how some people had to wait up to 90 minutes for a bus to stop that they could get on. Since Operations Planning was only advisory at the time, we couldn't just add service because that was controlled by another department and interdepartmental communication was difficult. So other than documenting, we couldn't do much.

 

But this was the game I was talking about. One driver was so pissed that he had to make his first trip with about 100 people on it (not exacggerating because once I handcounted 110 passengers boarding a new look bus.) So guess what he did? He made his next three round trips on the route with his NOT IN SERVCE sign. We should have reported him but we didn't. Another guy we did report who sat at the terminal for like an hour. We investigated that one and the driver reported to us that he had a bad radiator. But when we checked further with maintenance, we found no reports of a bad radiator that day. Yes they play games.

Edited by BrooklynBus
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Liberty Lines used to keep at least one filler bus on standby in midtown during the evening rush to fill in in the event of severe gaps in service. It was even mentioned on their timetables. That continued for a bit after MTA takeover, then was eliminated.

Believe it not, it continued when (MTA) Bus took over the lines too, so it's only stopped recently with their desire to streamline operations and centralize everything.

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Believe it not, it continued when (MTA) Bus took over the lines too, so it's only stopped recently with their desire to streamline operations and centralize everything.

 

they probably believed a standby bus is a waste

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this might get some people angry but i think the other factor on why bus ridership is declining is the fact that the traffic policy is slowing buses down

That MHV guy is gonna start a flame war with you if he sees this post ????...

 

But it *is* true to an extent; the city sometimes goes too far on the traffic calming and signal manipulation. Buses used to be able to go up 10th Avenue in Manhattan over 20 blocks at a time without stopping at a light. I haven't really checked how they're doing nowadays, but it's a safe bet they're not going a whole 20 blocks before hitting a red light, even at 25 mph.

 

(btw why hasnt anyone moved this to the bus forum? Ain't no one talked about trains since this thread started.)

Edited by paulrivera
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That MHV guy is gonna start a flame war with you if he sees this post ...

 

But it *is* true to an extent; the city sometimes goes too far on the traffic calming and signal manipulation. Buses used to be able to go up 10th Avenue in Manhattan over 20 blocks at a time without stopping at a light. I haven't really checked how they're doing nowadays, but it's a safe bet they're not going a whole 20 blocks before hitting a red light, even at 25 mph.

 

(btw why hasnt anyone moved this to the bus forum? Ain't no one talked about trains since this thread started.)

Well to be honest I wasn't sure which forum to put it in... I argued with myself that it could be in either. lol

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