Declining bus ridership in NYC due to improved subway service, MTA official claims

[Gotham Bus Co.]

 

 

A top MTA official claimed that bus ridership has plunged because subway service is getting better.... 

 

 

 

Then people must be punished for not riding correctly.

[B35 via Church]

I believe there is an increase in drivers across the city. When i'm on the Bx12 during rush hour I'm astonished by the amount of vehicular traffic the bus is surrounded by between Southern Blvd and Boston Road. I start asking myself what could be done to get some of the cars off the road because bumper to bumper traffic is a safety hazard in addition to a disturbance for buses.

I have a theory....

 

The MTA likes to advocate people taking trains over buses, and this narrative is being pushed quite a bit as time progresses.... So what do you have? You have people that walk to the subway, people that catch rides to the subway, people that take the bus to the subway.... Fine.... We have the subway that's garnering the gargantuan amount of crowding there currently is... Fine..... The subway was always crowded, but not this crowded/as crowded..... Then you start getting people asking themselves, when is enough, enough.....

 

It is unbeknownst to almost no one that takes the subway that it is definitely not exempt from delays.... For the myriad of reasons that there are, delays are ever more so apparent on your average bus ride in & about the city.... Buses are delayed, subways are delayed...... But you don't want to exactly give up on public transit just yet... So what are your options? Express buses & railroads.... This means you're going to have to break the bank a little more.... This is where the conundrum commences.....

 

You have those that get to the point where it's like, shit - I may as well get a car.... It is the exact mindset middle class folks tend to have, when their rents start rivaling mortgages... I'm inclined to believe that the influx of people driving in this city are native NY-ers, as people that are gentrifying into the city tend to commute via the subway, bicycle, and some taxi service.... These are the people, quiet is as kept, that are making pushes for alternative means of travel, where said conundrum commences for a lot of the natives in the city.... You aint gettin these gentrifiers to opt for the express bus or the RR.... They're the main ones pushing ferry travel & light rail travel....

---

 

The point Moody (the member on here) brought up regarding changing circumstances when it comes to travel, is a large part of the reason I've resorted to driving more than I would like.... I'm heading in the reverse peak direction in the mornings - simply put, even though I don't have too much of a problem w/ the B12 to the RR in the morning, it is:

 

1] the overall quality of LIRR service in general (especially on display for the PM commute)

2] this ridiculous gap in service

3] NICE bus (it's the reason I have to walk to/from the RR station; otherwise, I could take the n23)

4] the BS with the B12 on display during the PM commute (which I have made quite a bit of posts about on here)

5] Islander fans/Barclay's center (the reason I don't care for riding to Atlantic Terminal much anymore, coming home)

 

Points #4 & 5 are the reason I've been doing the whole & walking to the B35 (M. Gaston) or for a dollar cab (church/E. 98th) after getting off at LIRR ENY... The ultimate point regarding more people driving in this city, I have definitely noticed on the more easterly portion of the B35 - people clogging up E. 98th, then from Church b/w E. 98th to Utica.....

 

When you see 6 B35's and 4 B8's heading in the opposite direction all stuck b/w E. 98th & Remsen - of a ride on the B35 that took a whopping 31 minutes to get from M. Gaston to Schenectady, something is terribly wrong.... 5 of those 10 buses were back to back (B35 LTD, B35 LTD, B8, B35 local, B8)..... What in the actual f***...

 

With all that said.... What could be done to get cars off the road?

Getting the MTA to seriously take a look at how they're actually worsening the quality of subway travel, would be a good start... If I could make an analogy, it's a similar problem that the Knicks have had for a minute - What has the formula of compiling a bunch of players that USED to be stars, done for them in the past 2 decades? How's about trying to actually build a TEAM, instead of collecting "sureshots"..... Same with the MTA, it's to the point where subway travel isn't near as much of a "sureshot" that it used to be..... Stop trying to force everyone onto the subway & taking a backseat (pun unintended) when it comes to moving people around via the local bus and express bus (because that's becoming a problem too) in this city.... Always looking to f***in cut cut cut when it comes to the buses & then wanna tell its riders about declining bus ridership in NYC.... Almost like they're rubbing it in people's faces....

 

How's about building a TEAM - Where bus service city-wide complement subways with adequate service levels, instead of apparently viewing buses as supplementary travel that is at any point & time, subject & quite rife for partial or full elimination....

 

End transmission... B35, out.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So you don't like using local buses. You prefer express buses to the subway. You don't believe in cars. And now you state you don't use express buses as much. So how do you get around?

Many elderly can't afford taxis. Access a ride costs the MTA $50 per trip. You admit that on some bus routes mist everyone is elderly but you don't think the buses should cater to them. Do you realize how many inconsistencies and problems there are with what you are saying?

To Checkmate: There are few intersections where you have to wait two minutes until the light turns green again. Usually it's only 30 seconds., and in some cases a minute if a street is heavily used. Longer than a minute is usually where there is a separate turn cycle phase or more than two streets at an intersection. And at near side stops, some times the bus can pick up while the signal us red so stopping doesn't take longer. The chance of making additional lights because of fewer stood is slim since the dwell times are longer with fewer heavily used stops. So while there might be a small savings, it is not a great as you might think. And as I said, walking extra increases your chances of missing a bus.

Drivers should not have to hold everyone else up to carry their bags off of the bus. There's nothing wrong with them using it, but you can't deter others from using it with such nonsense. As for me, I still use the express bus but during off-peak hours. There are few to no elderly people, and the bus moves a lot faster. Otherwise I use Metro-North. Funny how people including the elderly can move on that. They've become entitled into believing that drivers should go out of their way for them.

 

As for Access-A-Ride, there has been talk about the needing to restructure that and I agree 100%

[BrooklynBus]

Drivers should not have to hold everyone else up to carry their bags off of the bus. There's nothing wrong with them using it, but you can't deter others from using it with such nonsense. As for me, I still use the express bus but during off-peak hours. There are few to no elderly people, and the bus moves a lot faster. Otherwise I use Metro-North. Funny how people including the elderly can move on that. They've become entitled into believing that drivers should go out of their way for them.

As for Access-A-Ride, there has been talk about the needing to restructure that and I agree 100%

I am sure the instances you cite about drivers helping seniors with their bags is the exception, not the rule and they are probably violating regulations by doing that. But rather than criticizing them, I would commend them for their actions. By helping the seniors, they are avoiding a potentially hazardous situation like the person falling, and then there would be more trouble.

 

I think you need to be a little more compassionate of others and learn to have a little more patience. Someday, when you are old you will think differently.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I am sure the instances you cite about drivers helping seniors with their bags is the exception, not the rule and they are probably violating regulations by doing that. But rather than criticizing them, I would commend them for their actions. By helping the seniors, they are avoiding a potentially hazardous situation like the person falling, and then there would be more trouble.

 

I think you need to be a little more compassionate of others and learn to have a little more patience. Someday, when you are old you will think differently.

I'm not criticizing at all. We're talking about why ridership is declining on buses, so we need an honest an open discussion.  I came across a very interesting article the other day on how Metro-North is growing its ridership.  How? Through targeting people like myself (millennials).  When I first moved to Riverdale, Metro-North wasn't something that I used regularly.  Why? Frequencies stunk.  I didn't like having to run to a screen to see where my train would be.  How did Metro-North respond?  They marketed their services aggressively throughout Riverdale.  They created Train Time so that riders could see which track their train would be on in advance.  The increased the frequencies of service significantly off-peak to make the service more attractive.  The result.  I've gone from an occasional rider to a daily rider.  

 

The point that I'm making is the should be doing the same thing for buses.  You can't rely on the elderly people to be your core base because what happens why they die out?  That's essentially what's going on here.  Young people are more transit oriented than ever and the article that I listed below shows why.  Read it and tell me what you think.  I thought it was very interesting and will post it in the Metro-North thread for discussion as well.  What I want to hear from you is how the bus system can be improved to atract NEW riders.  The old folks will use the bus because they have no other options.  

 

Source: http://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2016/02/10/millennials-metro-north/79939930/

 

Source: http://armonk.dailyvoice.com/schools/pace-people-this-week-rent-help-and-special-needs-service/702159/

[Dan1]

I found some more interesting stats from the NYSDMV. Between 2010 and 2015; 278,780 (+8.32%) more NYC residents acquired Driver's Licenses. The largest increase (+12.84%) was in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn also had the largest share (40.16%) of the overall NYC increase in that same time period. So something is definitely going on regarding additional cars and additional drivers.

https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/e045fc65-f752-46d6-b009-bd18870ff7c4

[Interested Rider]

The point that Dan1 is raising here as to the increase in the number of cars in Brooklyn was raised by Via Garibaldi in a discussion on this forum involving the B/36 and the entire issue of bus service in that part of Brooklyn last year.

Speaking from my own experience, it is the paper pushers who want to save pennies who think that the new technology will replace humans when it comes to keeping service levels adjusted. Many of us remember when we used to see dispatchers at various locations throughout the city keeping the bus routes moving smoothly and on time. Now you are lucky if you see one on the street as in many areas, they do not exist anymore.Everyone here posting on this thread could provide examples where if the human (not the machine) were back at  the key bus choke points  where they were taken away years ago to save money, service would get much better. For bus service to improve, you need to see the dispatchers back on the street and  strict enforcement of traffic rules by the various departments responsible for it Off the record, this is the problem as DOT and others like to do the hit and run instead of  daily enforcement in the area. The problem today is everything is about cutting corners, pennies here, pennies there and not looking at the overall implications of the decision. It is like we who ride of whatever age are not important to the people who sit in their offices and who never come out to see what the real world is like as they are afraid to hear what we have to say and as they  possibly may learn something.

[bobtehpanda]

I found some more interesting stats from the NYSDMV. Between 2010 and 2015; 278,780 (+8.32%) more NYC residents acquired Driver's Licenses. The largest increase (+12.84%) was in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn also had the largest share (40.16%) of the overall NYC increase in that same time period. So something is definitely going on regarding additional cars and additional drivers.

https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/e045fc65-f752-46d6-b009-bd18870ff7c4

 

How much of that volume is just transplants switching their state registration? Besides, having a license is not necessarily an indication of driving habits; I, and many people I know, have one simply because it's a easy state ID to get.

 

The city is hitting new population highs every day. We shouldn't be shocked that there are more drivers at all, because it would take some serious percentage declines in car travel for driving to go down as population goes up.

[BrooklynBus]

I'm not criticizing at all. We're talking about why ridership is declining on buses, so we need an honest an open discussion.  I came across a very interesting article the other day on how Metro-North is growing its ridership.  How? Through targeting people like myself (millennials).  When I first moved to Riverdale, Metro-North wasn't something that I used regularly.  Why? Frequencies stunk.  I didn't like having to run to a screen to see where my train would be.  How did Metro-North respond?  They marketed their services aggressively throughout Riverdale.  They created Train Time so that riders could see which track their train would be on in advance.  The increased the frequencies of service significantly off-peak to make the service more attractive.  The result.  I've gone from an occasional rider to a daily rider.  

 

The point that I'm making is the should be doing the same thing for buses.  You can't rely on the elderly people to be your core base because what happens why they die out?  That's essentially what's going on here.  Young people are more transit oriented than ever and the article that I listed below shows why.  Read it and tell me what you think.  I thought it was very interesting and will post it in the Metro-North thread for discussion as well.  What I want to hear from you is how the bus system can be improved to atract NEW riders.  The old folks will use the bus because they have no other options.  

 

Source: http://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2016/02/10/millennials-metro-north/79939930/

 

Source: http://armonk.dailyvoice.com/schools/pace-people-this-week-rent-help-and-special-needs-service/702159/

Well, it certainly sounded like you were criticizing the bus driver.

 

I agree with you that Metro-North is doing the correct thing to attract more riders, but the problems in attracting more bus riders is a little more complicated. But much can be done. I will get to that later.

 

Don't worry about the old people dying out. When they do, there will be new old people to replace them. I believe that half the bus users are either elderly or students and those without cars. You are correct that buses are the choice of last resort. And this situation is not new. This is the way it has been since the 1970s. Starting in the late sixties, the number of students bused to school exploded. I realized this when I did my bus survey in southern Brooklyn in 1975 when preparing my proposed bus changes. I was shocked to see the proportion of surveys returned from kids and the elderly. It was like half. And with the number of baby boomers aging, the numbers of seniors are increasing.

 

You make it sound like the elderly use the buses a lot because the MTA is targeting them to use the buses but the reality that is just the result of what is happening.

 

As you know, the biggest problem with buses is the lack of reliability, although I believe there has been some slight improvement in the past few years. The next problem is the archaic routing in many areas leaving huge service gaps. There has been no improvement in this area.

 

Third is the fare structure discouraging the use of three buses because of the double fare. Inadequate service is the fourth problem. You shouldn't be stuffed in like a sardine on the weekend. I also believe that 60 minute headways at night is ridiculous because it makes transferring all but impossible. There needs to be a nighttime route structure where you walk further to buses but on 30 minute headways.

 

There needs to be experimentation in changing bus routes and service levels which is never done. All changes are designed as permanent. And service levels are never increased on a trial basis to see if more service on infrequently operated routes will yield more riders. The Q101 is a prime example where this could be done. Instead, the MTA waits for new riders before it increases service and reduces service when ridership decreases without trying to figure out if there is a logical reason why the passengers left that route. The only time ridership increases without improved service is if there is a major new development.

 

If the problems I mentioned above were dealt with, you would have many more bus users. Then there are improvements to public information that could be made which would further increase bus use. This has always been a low priority. There is no reason why every bus shelter should not have a bus map displayed as Chicago does. When the shelters were conceived, there were supposed to be schedules and strip maps on them and it wouldn't have cost the MTA any money. This was in the contract with CEMUSA. But they were too lazy to update the information and the contract was never enforced, so it just went away.

 

There was also a provision built into all the bus shelters for electronic bus time info when it became available. That's why there is that rectangle on top of the advertisement that is now used as additional ad space. The MTA never explained why it suddenly became infeasible to use that space and instead decided to spend huge amounts of money for new kiosks at a few selected bus stops.

 

Also, the MTA never followed up with making bus schedules available on the buses. They installed pockets to hold the schedules but buses were never checked to make sure when a bus switches routes, the schedules in the pockets are changed. So today whenever you do see some schedules on a bus, it is for another route operating out of the depot.

 

Of course, now with bus time, schedules are becoming less important. But if you want to attract occasional riders, or want bus riders to get in the habit of trying new routes, or get tourists to use buses other than the ones they use for their regular trips, good public info is imperative. That is why I suggested numbering the crosstown routes in Manhattan the same as the street number which the MTA opposed, but did anyway.

 

Public info has never been a strong point with the MTA, NYCTA or DOT. For many years the NYCTA provided no bus Maps at all. People spent decades asking for them. The first ones were produced around 1970 and were totally inferior because the goal was to produce the cheapest map possible. Adequate maps were first produced in 1974 and improved upon ever since.

 

It took ages just to get DOT to list the bus routes that stopped at a given bus stop.

 

Getting the schedules to be made public was another decades long battle. Finally, Guide a Ride was introduced in the 1980s.

 

Bus Time is the biggest improvement to buses since the introduction of those maps in 1974.

 

So, yes much more can be done. If people began to think of using the bus as a viable form of transportation instead of one of last resort, car usage that you are so concerned about would go down.

 

I have more to say in other responses. Also, I think there is something wrong with your second link.

[BrooklynBus]

The point that Dan1 is raising here as to the increase in the number of cars in Brooklyn was raised by Via Garibaldi in a discussion on this forum involving the B/36 and the entire issue of bus service in that part of Brooklyn last year.

Speaking from my own experience, it is the paper pushers who want to save pennies who think that the new technology will replace humans when it comes to keeping service levels adjusted. Many of us remember when we used to see dispatchers at various locations throughout the city keeping the bus routes moving smoothly and on time. Now you are lucky if you see one on the street as in many areas, they do not exist anymore.Everyone here posting on this thread could provide examples where if the human (not the machine) were back at  the key bus choke points  where they were taken away years ago to save money, service would get much better. For bus service to improve, you need to see the dispatchers back on the street and  strict enforcement of traffic rules by the various departments responsible for it Off the record, this is the problem as DOT and others like to do the hit and run instead of  daily enforcement in the area. The problem today is everything is about cutting corners, pennies here, pennies there and not looking at the overall implications of the decision. It is like we who ride of whatever age are not important to the people who sit in their offices and who never come out to see what the real world is like as they are afraid to hear what we have to say and as they  possibly may learn something.

I agree with you on some points about paper pushers wanting to save pennies, but you have to also realize times are changing. Labor costs have exploded and we can't afford the all the dispatchers we once had. You are also exaggerating how effective they were. Their job was to write down bus arrival times to help management figure out where the delays were and which schedules needed revising, in addition to taking necessary actions. The problem was that it was common knowledge in most cases, rather than writing down when the buses actually arrived, they wrote down the times the buses were supposed to arrive because so it seemed like there were no delays and everything was runnng smoothly. They did this to make themselves look good as well as the bus drivers who were their friends. They never really supervised the bus drivers.

 

Management knew this was a problem but never did anything about it. Besides with the technology we have today, we don't need the numbers of dispatchers we once had. But I agree that the numbers we have on the streets today are grossly deficient. I also believe that many are not properly trained and actually make the system worse. Their objective for the most part is to reduce overtime, not better operate service. And nothing was ever done about the buddy buddy system.

 

There is a system we have today called BusTrek which is based on BusTime. It is available to all bus dispatchers on their cell phones. The MTA gave me a personal demonstration how this works and I was impressed. It shows where each bus is on the route and how many minutes early or late it is including buses not in passenger service which BusTime omits. The only thing missing are crowding levels which is why you still need people on the road to actually see what is happening.

How much of that volume is just transplants switching their state registration? Besides, having a license is not necessarily an indication of driving habits; I, and many people I know, have one simply because it's a easy state ID to get.

 

The city is hitting new population highs every day. We shouldn't be shocked that there are more drivers at all, because it would take some serious percentage declines in car travel for driving to go down as population goes up.

He is also neglecting those who have moved out of the city and are no longer driving here.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well, it certainly sounded like you were criticizing the bus driver.

I agree with you that Metro-North is doing the correct thing to attract more riders, but the problems in attracting more bus riders is a little more complicated. But much can be done. I will get to that later.

Don't worry about the old people dying out. When they do, there will be new old people to replace them. I believe that half the bus users are either elderly or students and those without cars. You are correct that buses are the choice of last resort. And this situation is not new. This is the way it has been since the 1970s. Starting in the late sixties, the number of students bused to school exploded. I realized this when I did my bus survey in southern Brooklyn in 1975 when preparing my proposed bus changes. I was shocked to see the proportion of surveys returned from kids and the elderly. It was like half. And with the number of baby boomers aging, the numbers of seniors are increasing.

You make it sound like the elderly use the buses a lot because the MTA is targeting them to use the buses but the reality that is just the result of what is happening.

As you know, the biggest problem with buses is the lack of reliability, although I believe there has been some slight improvement in the past few years. The next problem is the archaic routing in many areas leaving huge service gaps. There has been no improvement in this area.

Third is the fare structure discouraging the use of three buses because of the double fare. Inadequate service is the fourth problem. You shouldn't be stuffed in like a sardine on the weekend. I also believe that 60 minute headways at night is ridiculous because it makes transferring all but impossible. There needs to be a nighttime route structure where you walk further to buses but on 30 minute headways.

There needs to be experimentation in changing bus routes and service levels which is never done. All changes are designed as permanent. And service levels are never increased on a trial basis to see if more service on infrequently operated routes will yield more riders. The Q101 is a prime example where this could be done. Instead, the MTA waits for new riders before it increases service and reduces service when ridership decreases without trying to figure out if there is a logical reason why the passengers left that route. The only time ridership increases without improved service is if there is a major new development.

If the problems I mentioned above were dealt with, you would have many more bus users. Then there are improvements to public information that could be made which would further increase bus use. This has always been a low priority. There is no reason why every bus shelter should not have a bus map displayed as Chicago does. When the shelters were conceived, there were supposed to be schedules and strip maps on them and it wouldn't have cost the MTA any money. This was in the contract with CEMUSA. But they were too lazy to update the information and the contract was never enforced, so it just went away.

There was also a provision built into all the bus shelters for electronic bus time info when it became available. That's why there is that rectangle on top of the advertisement that is now used as additional ad space. The MTA never explained why it suddenly became infeasible to use that space and instead decided to spend huge amounts of money for new kiosks at a few selected bus stops.

Also, the MTA never followed up with making bus schedules available on the buses. They installed pockets to hold the schedules but buses were never checked to make sure when a bus switches routes, the schedules in the pockets are changed. So today whenever you do see some schedules on a bus, it is for another route operating out of the depot.

Of course, now with bus time, schedules are becoming less important. But if you want to attract occasional riders, or want bus riders to get in the habit of trying new routes, or get tourists to use buses other than the ones they use for their regular trips, good public info is imperative. That is why I suggested numbering the crosstown routes in Manhattan the same as the street number which the MTA opposed, but did anyway.

Public info has never been a strong point with the MTA, NYCTA or DOT. For many years the NYCTA provided no bus Maps at all. People spent decades asking for them. The first ones were produced around 1970 and were totally inferior because the goal was to produce the cheapest map possible. Adequate maps were first produced in 1974 and improved upon ever since.

It took ages just to get DOT to list the bus routes that stopped at a given bus stop.

Getting the schedules to be made public was another decades long battle. Finally, Guide a Ride was introduced in the 1980s.

Bus Time is the biggest improvement to buses since the introduction of those maps in 1974.

So, yes much more can be done. If people began to think of using the bus as a viable form of transportation instead of one of last resort, car usage that you are so concerned about would go down.

I have more to say in other responses. Also, I think there is something wrong with your second link.

When I lived in Italy, I lived in Florence, which has no subway. The bus system was very efficient. You boarded through any door on ALL buses and paid at any ticket machine on the bus (there were at least two or three on each bus). Verification was quick, and everyone understood the system. The drivers were rarely disturbed and allowed to just drive. I only interacted once with a driver to ask in Italian about which stop I needed to get off when I was traveling to Scandicci (a neighborhood outside of the city center). I also found it interesting that they had routes that only ran at night, and I found the service to be pretty good. They also had different sized buses (small ones for shuttles, regular ones for some lines, and artics for the really busy lines).

 

Even now I still remember some of the lines I used... For example, the 12 (dodici) I used to Piazzale Michelangelo and the 7 (sette) went to Fiesole.

 

We also had anti-smog days. In cities like Milan and Rome which suffers from smog, car usage is restricted, and tiered transportation is encouraged. We need something similar here. I realize that places like Milan are small New York's, but I think we could do something similar here.

[Interested Rider]

This is my point that you need people on the road to report problems and make the adjustments necessary to have the buses run on time.You can have all the technology in the world, however, if the human element and the caring factor is not there, then the technology is useless. If it means that the dispatchers become rovers, then that is what it should be as if there is a problem on a route that it is their job to correct it. My point remains that the paper pushers A/K/A Suits have to get out of their offices each and every day, see how the system is operating and make day to day corrections that are necessary to keep the service running efficiently. At the present time, it is not done and the information that is provided to the public concerning bus delays by one of the writers is indicative of the attitude of "we do not care" about the riding public. When the suits would see what many of the bus drivers see every day on their route and would make their bosses (and the politicians) aware of the problems, then many of the problems on the routes would be solved.

I know about the labor costs within this system but you cannot run a good system if the same people who are doing the planning and checking never get out of their offices and meet with the general public without an escort.or an entourage. Let them start leading by "getting their hands dirty" (and not for a photo-op and disappear) and spend the time on the streets so that they resolve the problems with the service and increase revenue.

[Deucey]

...plus their report data shows the Bx12 has the lowest rate of fare evasion of all SBS routes.

Only because it's tradition to give your proof to someone when getting off the bus. When I lived at The Oval, every time I got off at Sedgwick or Grand Concourse someone was begging and getting that ticket.

[N6 Limited]

Don't forget that there are tons of apartment buildings going up, especially in Brooklyn, they're probably transplants that are transferring their license to NY. 

 

Also, Uber and Lyft, etc play a role. There are people getting licenses, and/or buying cars and driving for Uber/Lyft to cover the payments. 

[checkmatechamp13]

To Checkmate: There are few intersections where you have to wait two minutes until the light turns green again. Usually it's only 30 seconds., and in some cases a minute if a street is heavily used. Longer than a minute is usually where there is a separate turn cycle phase or more than two streets at an intersection. And at near side stops, some times the bus can pick up while the signal us red so stopping doesn't take longer. The chance of making additional lights because of fewer stood is slim since the dwell times are longer with fewer heavily used stops. So while there might be a small savings, it is not a great as you might think. And as I said, walking extra increases your chances of missing a bus.

 

But at the same time, busy stops are usually on busy, frequent routes. So if you miss a bus while walking the extra block or so, you can make up the time on the ride itself.

 

I'm not criticizing at all. We're talking about why ridership is declining on buses, so we need an honest an open discussion.  I came across a very interesting article the other day on how Metro-North is growing its ridership.  How? Through targeting people like myself (millennials).  When I first moved to Riverdale, Metro-North wasn't something that I used regularly.  Why? Frequencies stunk.  I didn't like having to run to a screen to see where my train would be.  How did Metro-North respond?  They marketed their services aggressively throughout Riverdale.  They created Train Time so that riders could see which track their train would be on in advance.  The increased the frequencies of service significantly off-peak to make the service more attractive.  The result.  I've gone from an occasional rider to a daily rider.  

 

The point that I'm making is the should be doing the same thing for buses.  You can't rely on the elderly people to be your core base because what happens why they die out?  That's essentially what's going on here.  Young people are more transit oriented than ever and the article that I listed below shows why.  Read it and tell me what you think.  I thought it was very interesting and will post it in the Metro-North thread for discussion as well.  What I want to hear from you is how the bus system can be improved to atract NEW riders.  The old folks will use the bus because they have no other options.  

 

When they die out, the young people become old and replace them. 

 

But yes, I do agree that, even if the elderly comprise a significant portion of bus ridership, it still needs to be reasonably fast for young people to use. 

[BrooklynBus]

But at the same time, busy stops are usually on busy, frequent routes. So if you miss a bus while walking the extra block or so, you can make up the time on the ride itself.

 

 

 

When they die out, the young people become old and replace them. 

 

But yes, I do agree that, even if the elderly comprise a significant portion of bus ridership, it still needs to be reasonably fast for young people to use.

 

I have nothing against faster bus service and any stops that can be eliminated without causing too much inconvenience should be eliminated. In fact, one of the few things I did in my few months as Director was to move one bus stop and eliminate another that was not needed. All I am saying is that bus stops need to be removed or relocated on a case by case basis, You can't do it by making blanket rules like having all buses stop every three or five blocks. There are maximum distances that people are willing to walk to bus stops and if you generally increase those distances then the bus network needs to made denser with routes closer together.

[BrooklynBus]

This is my point that you need people on the road to report problems and make the adjustments necessary to have the buses run on time.You can have all the technology in the world, however, if the human element and the caring factor is not there, then the technology is useless. If it means that the dispatchers become rovers, then that is what it should be as if there is a problem on a route that it is their job to correct it. My point remains that the paper pushers A/K/A Suits have to get out of their offices each and every day, see how the system is operating and make day to day corrections that are necessary to keep the service running efficiently. At the present time, it is not done and the information that is provided to the public concerning bus delays by one of the writers is indicative of the attitude of "we do not care" about the riding public. When the suits would see what many of the bus drivers see every day on their route and would make their bosses (and the politicians) aware of the problems, then many of the problems on the routes would be solved.

I know about the labor costs within this system but you cannot run a good system if the same people who are doing the planning and checking never get out of their offices and meet with the general public without an escort.or an entourage. Let them start leading by "getting their hands dirty" (and not for a photo-op and disappear) and spend the time on the streets so that they resolve the problems with the service and increase revenue.

I agree with you, but the caring needs to come from the top and right now that hasn't happening. The direction from the top is to watch the budget, not take care of the passengers. The only chairman who tried to change that philosophy by putting customer service as the number one priority was Peter Stangl. And he was serious about it. I once sent him a letter when he was chairman complaining if he cared about customer service like he said he did, he should also care about how his employees are treated also so why were my 14 job applications to return to Operations Planning not responded to. Next thing I knew, he set up an interview for me with its head. But I was told at the interview that I would never be hired and was only interviewed because the chairman insisted on it. My mistake was that I never relayed that information back to the chairman.

[SubwayGuy]

If you are looking at this as a 20 year trend, then yes, subway service has been improving. However, since 2007 the subway has been getting more and more steadily overcrowded, and lengthening running time has only necessitated the addition of more trains to the line to maintain the same headways that were possible with fewer trains when a round trip took less time.

 

Bus service has been declining for 25+ years, and is losing out because of the frivolous amounts of money people who can't afford to save for retirement are spending on awful services like Uber just to get away from having to wait for unpredictable buses.

 

Bus service needs to be more frequent on lines that aren't subway redundant and less frequent on lines that are (to discourage bus ridership and street traffic where a train already runs...which is only viable with subway expansion that reduces crowding so that the subways in question don't run over capacity)...which also would involve reworking certain bus routes. Bus service also needs a big boost on overnights (including converting some routes to 24 hours that currently aren't), and bus stops on key feeder routes (starting with the SBS routes) should have arrival boards to indicate how long until the next bus. Cabs have made a living out of tricking people into overpaying for fares by doing the slow-drive-by at bus stops for years, and the TA would protect more of its bus ridership if people knew how long they'd have to wait for a bus before paying $10 or more to get in a cab.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If you are looking at this as a 20 year trend, then yes, subway service has been improving. However, since 2007 the subway has been getting more and more steadily overcrowded, and lengthening running time has only necessitated the addition of more trains to the line to maintain the same headways that were possible with fewer trains when a round trip took less time.

 

Bus service has been declining for 25+ years, and is losing out because of the frivolous amounts of money people who can't afford to save for retirement are spending on awful services like Uber just to get away from having to wait for unpredictable buses.

 

Bus service needs to be more frequent on lines that aren't subway redundant and less frequent on lines that are (to discourage bus ridership and street traffic where a train already runs...which is only viable with subway expansion that reduces crowding so that the subways in question don't run over capacity)...which also would involve reworking certain bus routes. Bus service also needs a big boost on overnights (including converting some routes to 24 hours that currently aren't), and bus stops on key feeder routes (starting with the SBS routes) should have arrival boards to indicate how long until the next bus. Cabs have made a living out of tricking people into overpaying for fares by doing the slow-drive-by at bus stops for years, and the TA would protect more of its bus ridership if people knew how long they'd have to wait for a bus before paying $10 or more to get in a cab.

If anything, it's the that helped with increased ridership via Uber, etc. because they've slashed bus service considerably overnight. When I complained about it on here, you had B/Os and others saying that the cuts were justified because very few people were using the service and they could take cabs, so what did those people start to do? Take cabs! lol Now that people have changed their commuting habits, you can't expect them to go back to buses. I sure as hell have changed my commuting habits and simply don't use certain local buses anymore. They royally screwed up lines like the M5 and M104. The M5 is a shell of what it used to be in terms of ridership. You can now get a seat on weekends, whereas before you would be standing (and this was before they cut service back to Midtown).

[B35 via Church]

If you are looking at this as a 20 year trend, then yes, subway service has been improving. However, since 2007 the subway has been getting more and more steadily overcrowded, and lengthening running time has only necessitated the addition of more trains to the line to maintain the same headways that were possible with fewer trains when a round trip took less time.

 

Bus service has been declining for 25+ years, and is losing out because of the frivolous amounts of money people who can't afford to save for retirement are spending on awful services like Uber just to get away from having to wait for unpredictable buses.

 

Bus service needs to be more frequent on lines that aren't subway redundant and less frequent on lines that are (to discourage bus ridership and street traffic where a train already runs...which is only viable with subway expansion that reduces crowding so that the subways in question don't run over capacity)...which also would involve reworking certain bus routes. Bus service also needs a big boost on overnights (including converting some routes to 24 hours that currently aren't), and bus stops on key feeder routes (starting with the SBS routes) should have arrival boards to indicate how long until the next bus. Cabs have made a living out of tricking people into overpaying for fares by doing the slow-drive-by at bus stops for years, and the TA would protect more of its bus ridership if people knew how long they'd have to wait for a bus before paying $10 or more to get in a cab.

I can't fully concur with this part in bold here.... The last thing we should be talking about is discouraging bus ridership in any capacity, even if the catchment area of the subway is expanded..... It ignores the bus riders that are taking said bus routes for short distances, or embarking/disembarking at bus stops that aren't at subway stops....

 

.....And the idea of taking buses off the road, when there are FAR more cars on the road that contribute to street traffic (even if buses physically take up more space [length-wise]) I wouldn't even conclude as even a small victory.... It's negligible, and quite frankly, counter-productive....

[Q43LTD]

First the says subway ridership is declining, now they say bus ridership is declining due to "improved subway service"? Well damn, which one is it?

[B35 via Church]

First the says subway ridership is declining, now they say bus ridership is declining due to "improved subway service"? Well damn, which one is it?

The difference is that subway ridership has declined less & over a much smaller period of time.... It's an indirect way of telling people that they should still cram onto subways.....

 

I'm just waiting for the year where bus ridership starts to slowly improve, or even starts to spike - with the FULL credit going solely due to Select Bus Service.... You know it's coming.

[Future ENY OP]

Bus service on the decline.. When was the last time I heard of this?

When you start putting performing lines over to +selectbusservice than it becomes a problem.

 

When you put lines like the B44 and B46 as +selectbusservice and you would think that service would be better. To me service has gotten worse. Especially on the B46. I've gotten a chance to ride the B46SBS and see that the buses do really bunch up going to Dekalb and vice versa to Kings Plaza.

 

Yes, its been discussed on numerous occasions that the 46 can't go to Williamsburg via SBS but the local service portion of the route really needs addressing. The same thing goes for the B44. I remember talking a LFSA limited B44 via New York a few years ago and that ride did very well maneuvering down New York Ave. If the   can address the troubles of the B44/46 locals by adding additional artics or XD40s to meet the demand of service and POSSIBLY eliminate some bus stops so that service can flow efficiently. But the problem of eliminating is that all these stops are utilized on the 44/46.

 

The biggest issue that really needs tackling in this city is the influx of UBER/LYFT/JUNO/GETT/VIA and don't get me started with the other rideshares. There are plainly too much cabs especially in Manhattan and Brooklyn to where the needs to really address. All these +SBS routes that are going to be created are not going to cut it. Expand more local service, and go back to creating more LTD service routes with pre-payment before boarding on buses.

[B35 via Church]

The biggest issue that really needs tackling in this city is the influx of UBER/LYFT/JUNO/GETT/VIA and don't get me started with the other rideshares. There are plainly too much cabs especially in Manhattan and Brooklyn to where the needs to really address.

Instead of the MTA having improved service on the B41, they basically surrendered to the dollar cab industry.... It is amazing that I'm now hard-pressed to see an actual van running along Flatbush.... Now all I see area actual minibuses - and to be specific, minibuses that used to run on MCAT routes (out in Middlesex county in Jersey)..... And it seems like they're a little more frequent than the vans were!

 

Basically, the MTA is doing the opposite of bothering to address the repercussions of their own ignorance/negligence.... I, to an extent, see this whole thing with the influx of taxi services (which are in competition w/ NYC taxi's), as what's going on with the dollar cab industry....

 

When public transportation shows any sign of possibly losing out to the taxicab industry, it's a huge problem...  I'm not so sure the MTA can gain w/e lost bus riders back that are now resorting to cab services; instilling SBS isn't going to do the trick either.... They're going to have to hope for newfound ridership (basically, through newfound developments) on the buses - if they even care to.... What I am noticing, is that the (what I call) "new & improved" craze of SBS has died down, and folks are realizing that it's not the bread & butter they once saw it as.... I won't call SBS a fad exactly, but the "wow" factor has vanquished..... I'm not hearing much of any waxing poetic of SBS these days on any large enough scale..... It's eventually what happens when normalcy kicks in anyway...

[checkmatechamp13]

Expand more local service, and go back to creating more LTD service routes with pre-payment before boarding on buses.

 

LTD service with off-board fare payment and bus lanes is basically +SBS+. So you're basically calling for more +SBS+ service without bus lanes? (Which help the local as well). Not sure how that would help.