Transit experts propose ending NYC's 24/7 subway system

[Wallyhorse]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:31 AM, Lance said:

Exactly. We don't need a full shutdown, but rather one that focusses on the problem areas that cannot be fixed using standard one-directional station bypasses. We also need to change how maintenance work is done. These patchwork approaches to system upkeep are not working and it's primarily due to a lack of time. Even if the subway was to completely shutdown overnights, that leaves about six hours (presumably 23:00-05:00) to actually do any work, some of which will likely be lost due to staging of materials. Prenderghast mentioned the possibility of full-time shutdowns like the ones for Myrtle Ave and the upcoming one for Canarsie. Instead of never-ending weekends of various service changes and reroutes, perhaps the MTA needs to look into more short-term full-time closures. This way, the pain of dealing with reroutes is mitigated since the overall time of the maintenance work is significantly reduced. This is what the agency should focus on pitching to riders, something that will have tangible results, rather than try to convince riders that no late night service at all will somehow be beneficial when the piecemeal shutdowns have proven to be ineffective.

Exactly!

This would be the way to handle this, especially where there are nearby alternatives.  Sure, SOME people would be upset when THEIR line is out (and some loudmouth pols, trying to look good to their constituents might complain), but given all the G.O.'s and so forth we are already dealing with, 3-9 month total shutdowns that would allow for more long-term fixtures that at this point likely is necessary in many instances.

Obviously, some lines it would be very difficult to do it on (notably Queens Boulevard), but for instance the Lexington Line you could set it up where in the stretch from Grand Central-125th Street, you could do it where 42nd-86th Street and then 86th-125th is shut down (on the local level) while the express level could see all of 42nd-125th shut down simultaneously.

[Wallyhorse]

On 11/30/2017 at 5:28 PM, Lance said:

You're right in that things are nowhere near as bad as they were at their lowest point. However, that does not mean we should accept the ever-decreasing quality of service that has prevailed over the past few years (which I'm also aware you're not suggesting, just to cut off that line of questioning or accusations). The MTA has to do something to get the system back to respectable levels of overall quality and they cannot do that by maintaining the status quo. The problem is that the agency seemingly has no interest or incentive to actually change their MO when it comes to maintenance work. Maybe Byford can make some effort in this regard, but I'm not holding my breath.

And that is true.  Things were MUCH WORSE in the early 1980's than they are now (I remember seeing track fires constantly back then and riding through those in some cases for example),  but people today don't have the tolerance for such lower levels of series people of a certain age did, especially with social media being what it is now as opposed to say 1982. 

[CenSin]

5 hours ago, Daniel The Cool said:

That first setup is a little overdoing it plus I doubt they will pay a bunch of platform conductors.

That’s the point. Expanded FASTRACK is expanded. It does not mean the proposal has to be palatable. But then there is the serving as substitutes, so it’s one of the more doable ones compared to the others I listed which would most certainly require shuttle buses.

5 hours ago, Daniel The Cool said:

And last I check they would have to have someone work at the 34th Street area to turn the  Trains there.

There is no additional procedure for trains turning at 34 Street–Penn Station. Trains from Brooklyn pull into the station and reverse out to the southbound express track.

5 hours ago, Daniel The Cool said:

And as for Queens Blvd, I hope you do realize that northbound Trains cannot terminate at Court Square. It would have to turn at Queens Plaza.

There are switches for that just outside of Court Square at the under-river tunnel end… I’ll be riding the on Tuesday or Thursday to make sure.

[Spypenguin]

There is an additional switch just outside Lexington Av-53rd St as well. So there's two options.

[RailRunRob]

I guess my question is what's the end goal that everyone feels the System overall needs to reach?  What's the 21st-century standard's that needs to be implemented?  Everything's secondary to that. Then you add Time, resources needed along with secured funding and the ways you can execute that goal or plan. So what do they need to do? And why do they need to do it? I'm not seeing that being asked here.

[checkmatechamp13]

16 hours ago, bulk88 said:

Before the mid 2010s, after http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/11/03/brooklyn-mta-workers-hit-by-train/  and 1 or 2 other worker fatalities, NYCT+TWU have the "adjacent track flagging" policy. Both tracks adjacent to the OOS track must be 5 mph flagged. And all tracks adjacent tracks must be flagged for something like 1.5 miles on both sides (up from 1/4 mile) of the work site. 2 GOes on 1 trunk line and all 10 miles are 5 mph. Pedal bike on street will beat the train all the way to the terminal. DC metro supposedly was built with no manholes between adjacent tracks so they can single track at full speed without issues.

My opinion, return the rules back to what they used to be (adjacent tracks not flagged, if still in service but worked on, 1/2 mile or 1/4 mile warning, not 1+ mile). No amount of safety rules can stop stupid or blatant disregard of training by track workers by stepping onto in-service tracks without authorization.

1

I can see maybe some level of flagging for an adjacent track (maybe 10 mph with a 1/4 mile warning). It's one thing if they're just carelessly hanging out on an adjacent track, but perhaps some operation requires them to momentarily step onto the adjacent track (e.g. Maybe if they're all carrying a piece of rail, but it's coming in at an angle IDK). If such operations exist, then I can see why that policy exists. But I definitely agree the buffer zone is too long.

[Daniel The Cool]

4 hours ago, CenSin said:

 

There is no additional procedure for trains turning at 34 Street–Penn Station. Trains from Brooklyn pull into the station and reverse out to the southbound express track.

 

Yes there is. It was said in another thread that someone has to manned that tower/switches if it was to be used and you do have to switch tracks so it's not just to go in and leave just like that.

[Bill from Maspeth]

The Regional Planning Association is nothing more than a Think Tank.  Transit Experts? No!

They'll think of ideas and only present them, they have no power to implement.  They are no more of a bunch of transit experts than me or anybody who posts on this board.

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

The Regional Planning Association is nothing more than a Think Tank.  Transit Experts? No!

They'll think of ideas and only present them, they have no power to implement.  They are no more of a bunch of transit experts than me or anybody who posts on this board.

That begs the question of who and what are Transit Experts? Planners? Engineers. And back to my original statement and question on what exactly the MTA goals are what should we be aiming for and why?  I don't understand how we can have a conversation about anything without that starting point. How can say you can/can't carry something with the FastTrack Process when we don't know what we need?  What are the current transit standards and what do we need to get or approach that threshold?. The RPA might be a think tank but at least they're showing up and showing something that's half the battle right there. Wacky or not. So let's start the convo.. What do we need?

[CenSin]

3 hours ago, Daniel The Cool said:

Yes there is. It was said in another thread that someone has to manned that tower/switches if it was to be used

I was thinking there would have to be a person clearing out the trains and all, but is a switch operator so bad for the 7 hours at night when FASTRACK happens?

3 hours ago, Daniel The Cool said:

and you do have to switch tracks so it's not just to go in and leave just like that.

That’s just about every terminal in the system except for the loops.

[Bill from Maspeth]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 3:06 PM, CenSin said:

Expanded FASTRACK (Part 2):

• All of IND Queens Boulevard is shut down from Queens Plaza to Jamaica. trains from Brooklyn terminate at 21 Street–Queensbridge. trains from World Trade Center terminate at Court Square.
• All of the IND Fulton Street tracks from Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets to Grant Avenue are shut down. The route from Manhattan is truncated to Jay Street–MetroTech. The late night becomes a round-robin shuttle serving Ozone Park and the Rockaways.
• All of the IND Culver tracks from Bergen Street to Church Avenue are shut down. The route from Coney Island is truncated to Church Avenue (terminating on the express tracks). The route from Manhattan is truncated to Jay Street–MetroTech. The will single-track between Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets and Bedford–Nostrand Avenues.
• All of the BMT 4 Avenue, West End, and Sea Beach tracks are shut down from Grand Street down. trains terminate at 2 Avenue. trains terminate at Whitehall Street. trains run local via Whitehall Street to compensate. There are no trains.
• All of the Brooklyn IRT tracks from Clark Street are shut down. The route from the Bronx is diverted to South Ferry. The route from the Bronx is truncated to Borough Hall. Alternative service is provided by the (running via Whitehall Street) .

You're going way overboard.  You are taking out too much trackage at one time.  Fast Track is meant to take out a block or section of trackage, not virtually an entire line.  And Fast Track is not done on elevated structures as transit does not do structure work after dark.

[RR503]

25 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

You're going way overboard.  You are taking out too much trackage at one time.  Fast Track is meant to take out a block or section of trackage, not virtually an entire line.  And Fast Track is not done on elevated structures as transit does not do structure work after dark.

While I agree the above is overkill, the fact that we can't do el work overnight is ridiculous. This isnt 1500. Its 2017. Literally every other construction project in the world uses portable floodlights to keep outdoor work going in the night. Classic archaic work rules. 

[CenSin]

35 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

And Fast Track is not done on elevated structures as transit does not do structure work after dark.

Already knew that (hence the lack of proposals involving any other outdoor stretch). But Sea Beach and West End do not have great facilities for turning back trains. For both 8 Avenue and 9 Avenue, the switches are far west of the stations. So they are better replaced with shuttle buses. At around the times FASTRACK is active, the ridership is not too much for a few buses to handle.

35 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

You're going way overboard.  You are taking out too much trackage at one time.  Fast Track is meant to take out a block or section of trackage, not virtually an entire line.

Relative to the shuttering of 24/7 service as proposed, I think this is reasonable. Perhaps the need for even more work to be done than already is is a justification for expanded shutdowns.

[CenSin]

1 minute ago, RR503 said:

While I agree the above is overkill, the fact that we can't do el work overnight is ridiculous. This isnt 1500. Its 2017. Literally every other construction project in the world uses portable floodlights to keep outdoor work going in the night. Classic archaic work rules. 

I believe that they are due to noise problems? A lot of ROWs are like right next to people’s bedrooms.

[RR503]

14 minutes ago, CenSin said:

I believe that they are due to noise problems? A lot of ROWs are like right next to people’s bedrooms.

I know the CTA does work at night. Their ROWs are also near homes. Makes little sense that we can't too, especially on lines like the  whose elevated segments run through industrial areas... 

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

I know the CTA does work at night. Their ROWs are also near homes. Makes little sense that we can't too, especially on lines like the  whose elevated segments run through industrial areas... 

That's because the Chicago machine does not care about the poor people in Chicago who live right next to the el.

[RailRunRob]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

I know the CTA does work at night. Their ROWs are also near homes. Makes little sense that we can't too, especially on lines like the  whose elevated segments run through industrial areas... 

The Red and Blue lines run at night for the most part both are Subway's downtown. The Red and Blue both run in Center median via Expressway. The Red runs elevated and embankment on the Northside not to bad on that side of town at all.

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

That's because the Chicago machine does not care about the poor people in Chicago who live right next to the el.

Which EL's? The Brown Line? The Green is only one that comes to mind. And the Orange is ROW on the Westside. They don't run at night. 

[RailRunRob]

Question what exactly happen's during fast tracks? 

[LexAveExp5]

Things aren't as bad as they were in the 80s, but I think they proposed the overnight shutdown because not only do they have to keep up with the regular maintenance, but now they want to modernize the entire signal system within 15 years instead of 50

[RailRunRob]

3 minutes ago, LexAveExp5 said:

Things aren't as bad as they were in the 80s, but I think they proposed the overnight shutdown because not only do they have to keep up with the regular maintenance, but now they want to modernize the entire signal system within 15 years instead of 50

Indeed. That's what I'm getting from it as well. So if the goal is to upgrade the signal system which is the ultimately thw only way to get the system handle ridership over 7-8 million daily this or Build Build Build. Shouldn't the question be can they perform that amount of work within the Fasttrack framework?  And in a timely fashion within a 10-15 year timeframe?  

[B35 via Church]

15 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

That begs the question of who and what are Transit Experts? Planners? Engineers.

Anyone that exalts their transit related opinions.

[RailRunRob]

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Anyone that exalts their transit related opinions.

So how do you solve issues? This vast system of 472 stations was built on opinions? No experts touched it?

[B35 via Church]

14 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

So how do you solve issues? This vast system of 472 stations was built on opinions? No experts touched it?

I submit them to those that apparently have their head in the sand like you do.... You know, like these jokers that propose running no subway service during the wee hours of the day - Then do the exact opposite.

Seriously now, these "transit experts" aren't any engineers or planners in transit.... This naivete act from you has gotten old.

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I submit them to those that apparently have their head in the sand like you do.... You know, like these jokers that propose running no subway service during the wee hours of the day - Then do the exact opposite.

Seriously now, these "transit experts" aren't any engineers or planners in transit.... This naivete act from you has gotten old.

2

Guy, I'm so happy to hear you say that because honestly the under simplification of everything is killing me.  I'm hearing comment's based on nothing but hearsay not understanding the goals or the task or even what it takes to do the job. In my opinion, that's what's killing this Country now. Everyone wants it instant right to 10 just skipping the steps. We know signaling needs to be upgraded. Okay, can anyone tell me the amount of trackage both revenue and non that need to be upgraded I didn't see anyone start from that point? Fast Track do we have an estimation of time? Can we even get it done within that work structure?  Or before that understanding that the population is expected to hit 9 million...10 million in 2070 what's needed to get the system absorb growing ridership 7-8 million a day anyone? Is it more that signaling? Building more lines? Naivete act? Half the time I'm so flabbergasted about the thought process I'm trying to start the fire with the question's and understand how you came to that conclusion. I'm not trying to assume anything and be open to someone else's POV we coved this before. But I can get right to the gusto from now on if that's better? Trust there's nothing I'm saying or doing that you wouldn't get in the real world break it down. Don't need more complainers we need more problem solvers man. Head in the sand where? Remember there's someone laying the foundation for you to build on.. Your Car, Computer, Software, and Train and every process start with the What? and Why? You're not going to negate that don't care how you feel about it, The process doesn't care about your feelings playa whether you understand that or not. The World's still spinning at 1,048Mph (Shrugs) Hey VG long time buddy.  

[Trainmaster5]

I'm not sure if some of the people who are posting are serious or trolling.  Maybe because they don't venture out past 9 or10pm ? This ain't Philly or Chi-town.  I can't believe that people are suggesting that it's okay to set up floodlights on an elevated track adjacent to someone's dwelling after dark.  Short of an NTSB investigation it's not going to happen in NYC.  I'm picturing the 3 line adjacent to the Van Dyke or the Tilden houses or the housing next to Jackson Avenue on the 2 and 5. I'd bet that before the first night's work was completed the floodlights would be turned off by one means or another and the workers would refuse to perform for safety reasons. It's one thing to be a railfan but let's come back to Earth.  Even some of the underground ideas aren't fully thought out. If the subway system was fully automated one could turn trains anywhere there were switches in the proper locations.  When you add the human element of the train crews things become more complicated. Where are the facilities for dispatching,  crew quarters,  and the restrooms located ? I'm pretty familiar with the IRT and I'd bet that most people don't realize where these facilities are available or the distances between the trains and those locations.  Think 168 St and Broadway on the 1 or Borough Hall on the IRT. Are you putting Port-O-Sans at the end of the platform  ?  What might work on a 20 or 30 minute headway may not be able to work on a 10 or 12 minute headway.  Just my thoughts.  Let's hear your thoughts.  Carry on.