Transit experts propose ending NYC's 24/7 subway system

[Daniel The Cool]

Yep I've heard enough

 

Closed subway entrance on West 181 St. and Ft. Washington Ave.

 

 (HANDSCHUH, DAVID)

BYDAN RIVOLI

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

Thursday, November 30, 2017, 12:01 AM

Imagine New York without its 24/7 subway system?

The experts at the Regional Plan Association did, and they believe it's key to building a reliable transit system for a growing metropolitan area.

The radical idea to snuff the pride of New York is one of dozens of recommendations in the research group's latest regional plan — the association's fourth region-wide blueprint since 1929 — being released Thursday.

“We think that the days of the 24/7 subway system in New York are coming to an end,” RPA president Tom Wright told reporters of the “controversial” idea.

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There are 60 other ideas in the RPA’s grand plan for the metropolitan region:

 

Raise money through new taxes, like charging drivers to enter Manhattan’s business center, tolling major roads and highways, adopting a cap-and-trade program for emissions, and a tax based on vehicle-miles traveled. Build dense housing near transit stops throughout the region.

Extend subway lines around the city and build out overcrowded stations.

Create a regional rail network that allows trains to flow unimpeded through the tristate area, such as building a new facility south of Penn Station that could allow rail to bring travelers between Long Island and New Jersey without switching trains.

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RPA is unveiling its full plan Thursday at The New School, with elected and government officials from around the region.

Officials with the RPA acknowledge that politicians would surely slam some of the proposals. But together, the proposals could add nearly 4 million people and nearly 2 million jobs to the region by 2040. But sticking with “business as usual” would cut those numbers nearly in half.

To that end, RPA believes that closing the subway overnight from Monday through Thursday will help bring the subway system into the 21st Century — in 15 years.

Some worry the region’s economy would take a hit without a constantly running subway.

 (SCHWARTZ,MICHAEL ,FREELANCE,NYDN)

With overnight weekday ridership averaging 85,000 passengers, keeping trains running "doesn't make sense," Wright from the RPA said.

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Instead, RPA officials believe that the MTA can add shuttle buses to handle thousands of commuters each night.

"The cost of that, not just in terms of dollars but in terms of performance of the system the other 20 hours of the day, is no longer worth it,” Wright said.

The MTA did not return request for comment.

Riders and transit experts had a Bronx cheer for the tone-deaf idea of nixing overnight subway service in a city that never sleeps.

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“That’s a horrible idea because I work overnight sometimes. New York City is a city that’s 24 hours,” said Saud Alshaikh, 26, a pharmacist in the Upper West Side, “I hope it doesn’t go through.”

Stephanie Porto, 35, a photo producer, thought it would be painful for construction workers or nurses who work all hours of the day.

“Public transport shutting down at any point seems like a false solution,” Porto said.

There were some riders who’d be willing to suck it up, though they acknowledged it would be most painful for late-night workers.

“If it were a short term thing that would be a small price to pay for the subway working better,” said Dave Bernath, 50, a TV executive. “If you work late night and got to get somewhere, it doesn’t make sense.”

Closure of the subway system over night will be the most painful for late-night workers.

 (HANDSCHUH, DAVID)

Mitchell Moss, NYU Rudin Center for Transportation Policy & Management director, panned the “elitist” proposal.

“The RPA board should be embarrassed by this recommendation,” Moss said. “The RPA board members and officers needs to take the subway after midnight and see that they’re jammed with working New Yorkers, not the leisure classes who attend cocktail parties and galas.”

Andrew Albert, a riders representative on the MTA board, said the region’s economy would take a whack without a constantly running subway.

“People don’t want to wait out in the street at the bus that will come even less frequently than the train, most likely. You cannot do that,” Albert said. “You’ll lose people permanently if you force them onto buses.”

Riders, too were incensed at being asked to give up their subway creature comfort that made New York the city that never sleeps.

Former MTA boss Tom Prendergast, who is now an RPA board member, said that 24/7 service was one of the “absolutes” at the agency when he joined in 1982.

This “absolute” has waned over the years, he said, pointing to overnight Fast Track repairs that take segments of train lines out of service and the round-the-clock closure of the L line’s Canarsie tube for 18 months.

“There’s a conflict between improving 24/7 service on all lines every day versus getting that work done,” he said. “The argument that needs to be made is, absent some significant way of changing of how work can get done in the system and make sure critical maintenance gets done, the system will continue to deteriorate over time. Then it reaches a point where it’s unacceptable.”

“It’s going to spur a dialogue,” he added.

  

Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/regional-plan-association-propose-close-24-7-subway-system-article-1.3666521

 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Wouldn't all those shuttle buses (entirely on overtime) end up costing more than the "savings" from not running the trains (on straight time)?

[P3F]

Breaking News: People claiming to be transit "experts," are actually fools.

[RR503]

We brought the subway back from the brink during the 80s without ending overnight service. We can do it again. 

[CenSin]

Don’t shut down the whole system… just the parts that need work. The current FASTRACK idea needs to be expanded to include outer trunks like Central Park West, Queens Boulevard, Fulton Street, and 4 Avenue.

[NY1635]

I'm against charging motorists to enter Manhattan because the idea won't generate any revenue for the MTA. They'll just smarten up and start driving to the nearest subway station, park their car in the area, and then take the subway into the city. Only way to lower congestion in Midtown is for the MTA to do the impossible: Lower the toll price on the Verrazanos Bridge.

[Lance]

21 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Don’t shut down the whole system… just the parts that need work. The current FASTRACK idea needs to be expanded to include outer trunks like Central Park West, Queens Boulevard, Fulton Street, and 4 Avenue.

Exactly. We don't need a full shutdown, but rather one that focusses on the problem areas that cannot be fixed using standard one-directional station bypasses. We also need to change how maintenance work is done. These patchwork approaches to system upkeep are not working and it's primarily due to a lack of time. Even if the subway was to completely shutdown overnights, that leaves about six hours (presumably 23:00-05:00) to actually do any work, some of which will likely be lost due to staging of materials. Prenderghast mentioned the possibility of full-time shutdowns like the ones for Myrtle Ave and the upcoming one for Canarsie. Instead of never-ending weekends of various service changes and reroutes, perhaps the MTA needs to look into more short-term full-time closures. This way, the pain of dealing with reroutes is mitigated since the overall time of the maintenance work is significantly reduced. This is what the agency should focus on pitching to riders, something that will have tangible results, rather than try to convince riders that no late night service at all will somehow be beneficial when the piecemeal shutdowns have proven to be ineffective.

[Lawrence St]

We do NOT need a full system shutdown. Rather then doing that, have multiple fasttracks going on at once.

[CenSin]

51 minutes ago, Lance said:

Exactly. We don't need a full shutdown, but rather one that focusses on the problem areas that cannot be fixed using standard one-directional station bypasses. We also need to change how maintenance work is done. These patchwork approaches to system upkeep are not working and it's primarily due to a lack of time. Even if the subway was to completely shutdown overnights, that leaves about six hours (presumably 23:00-05:00) to actually do any work, some of which will likely be lost due to staging of materials. Prenderghast mentioned the possibility of full-time shutdowns like the ones for Myrtle Ave and the upcoming one for Canarsie. Instead of never-ending weekends of various service changes and reroutes, perhaps the MTA needs to look into more short-term full-time closures. This way, the pain of dealing with reroutes is mitigated since the overall time of the maintenance work is significantly reduced. This is what the agency should focus on pitching to riders, something that will have tangible results, rather than try to convince riders that no late night service at all will somehow be beneficial when the piecemeal shutdowns have proven to be ineffective.

The one-way shutdowns must also be accompanied by stricter work zone isolation. Sometimes workers are just stepping out into area that they don’t apparently belong, slowing down traffic to a crawl for all the tracks when only one side is being worked on. I’ve seen instances where these workers are practically ducklings crossing the road—and so many of them one has to wonder what each of their contribution to the work is.

[NY1635]

2 hours ago, CenSin said:

Don’t shut down the whole system… just the parts that need work. The current FASTRACK idea needs to be expanded to include outer trunks like Central Park West, Queens Boulevard, Fulton Street, and 4 Avenue.

How would Fast Track on Queens Blvd work? The main problem I have with it is there's no place to relocate the during the shutdown.

[BreeddekalbL]

I say if it ever gets proposed, they should march in the streets 

[Lance]

45 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

How would Fast Track on Queens Blvd work? The main problem I have with it is there's no place to relocate the during the shutdown.

Much as it did every time the line was closed for FASTRACK last year or so:

 -- Roosevelt Av to Jamaica Center

 -- Roosevelt Av to 179 Street; 21 St-Queensbridge to Coney Island

Obviously that would have to be amended for the length of track taken out of service, but such a closure is not without precedence.

43 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I say if it ever gets proposed, they should march in the streets 

I can't see the MTA proposing this and even if they did, the proposal would never go anywhere because of its sheer toxicity to politicians. None of them are going to look good if they came out supporting the end of late night service.

[Daniel The Cool]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

Don’t shut down the whole system… just the parts that need work. The current FASTRACK idea needs to be expanded to include outer trunks like Central Park West, Queens Boulevard, Fulton Street, and 4 Avenue.

Well Fastrack has been done on all of the lines you brought up with the exception of Fourth Avenue between Atlantic Avenue and 36th Street.

[itmaybeokay]

7 hours ago, RR503 said:

We brought the subway back from the brink during the 80s without ending overnight service. We can do it again. 

I would contend that the current situation isn't quite as bad as the 70s-80s situation either, but I know there are those who would disagree with me. 

Yet, Lest we forget: 

"There were 450 red tag areas of track where trains needed to slow to 5 -- 10mph, and the number of yellow tag areas -- portions of track that were not in immediate danger but would need replacement soon -- stood at 334 in February of 1984."

also

7 hours ago, CenSin said:

Don’t shut down the whole system… just the parts that need work. The current FASTRACK idea needs to be expanded to include outer trunks like Central Park West, Queens Boulevard, Fulton Street, and 4 Avenue.

It's not unreasonable to propose entire lines or large swaths of the system get the fast-track treatment, perhaps even more than one at a time. They should, and likely will continue expanding the program. 

4 hours ago, NY1635 said:

How would Fast Track on Queens Blvd work? The main problem I have with it is there's no place to relocate the during the shutdown.

It's been done before! The detail map is not still online but the general schedule is:

http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/fastrackSchedule2014.htm

The answer is: 

Quote

 

No  between Roosevelt Av
and World Trade Center

No  between Roosevelt Av
and 21 St-Queensbridge

and service ends early  
each night

 

They just suspended the E entirely. Everyone survived. 

[Lance]

You're right in that things are nowhere near as bad as they were at their lowest point. However, that does not mean we should accept the ever-decreasing quality of service that has prevailed over the past few years (which I'm also aware you're not suggesting, just to cut off that line of questioning or accusations). The MTA has to do something to get the system back to respectable levels of overall quality and they cannot do that by maintaining the status quo. The problem is that the agency seemingly has no interest or incentive to actually change their MO when it comes to maintenance work. Maybe Byford can make some effort in this regard, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Mtatransit]

3 hours ago, itmaybeokay said:

I would contend that the current situation isn't quite as bad as the 70s-80s situation either, but I know there are those who would disagree with me. 

Yet, Lest we forget: 

"There were 450 red tag areas of track where trains needed to slow to 5 -- 10mph, and the number of yellow tag areas -- portions of track that were not in immediate danger but would need replacement soon -- stood at 334 in February of 1984."

also

It's not unreasonable to propose entire lines or large swaths of the system get the fast-track treatment, perhaps even more than one at a time. They should, and likely will continue expanding the program. 

It's been done before! The detail map is not still online but the general schedule is:

http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/fastrackSchedule2014.htm

The answer is: 

They just suspended the E entirely. Everyone survived. 

I vouch the they shut down entire line for one week, and then do rest of the work on weekends. There could be advance notice and plenty of media attention, so employers know. Is it going to be bad, yes it is, but I'm hoping that it would equal less off peak track work, and better maintained tracks.

[Deucey]

I never understood why every line is active overnight when the bulk of the system is redundant with lines next to each other.

For example: you could shut Eastern Pkwy and run shuttle buses from  stations on Fulton St; shut Broadway and ride the Lex since it’s blocks away.

On the west side, you could shut Broadway  and use 8th Av or vice versa. In the Bx, Concourse could replace Jerome or vice versa, White Plains could replace Pelham.

You'd have to have a REALLY GOOD owl bus service connecting closed stations with open stations - like other cities with trains can and do have, but it's not impossible to do, and would probably be more effective than subway shuttles/bus bridges as they are now. And you'd have to run open lines more frequently than 16-20 minute headways.

As for cheaper? Probably not.

[NY1635]

10 hours ago, Lance said:

Much as it did every time the line was closed for FASTRACK last year or so:

 -- Roosevelt Av to Jamaica Center

 -- Roosevelt Av to 179 Street; 21 St-Queensbridge to Coney Island

Obviously that would have to be amended for the length of track taken out of service, but such a closure is not without precedence.

I can't see the MTA proposing this and even if they did, the proposal would never go anywhere because of its sheer toxicity to politicians. None of them are going to look good if they came out supporting the end of late night service.

I don't see this setup working because the has gotten worse in recent years. The signal malfunctions, slow crawl into Manhattan, and terrible overnight service makes it unbearable. The MTA would actually have to put effort into maintaining the Flushing Line first just to be prepared for Fast Track on the QBL lines. There's not much people riding into Manhattan after 11pm, but the half baked measures the agency takes to do maintenance on the rails just makes the commute feel longer.

[CenSin]

Expanded FASTRACK:

• All of the IND tracks from 59 Street–Columbus Circle to Inwood and Norwood are shut down. Manhattan-bound trains terminate at 34 Street–Penn Station. Manhattan-bound trains (from Brooklyn) terminate at 42 Street–Bryant Park. The routes provide alternative service.
• All of the IRT 7 Avenue tracks from Hoyt Street and South Ferry to 168 Street and 148 Street are shut down. train shuttle runs between the Bronx and 168 Street. train shuttle runs between Wakefield and East 180 Street. The covers for the in the Bronx and Brooklyn. The  routes provide alternative service in Manhattan.
• All of the IRT Lexington Avenue tracks from Woodlawn to Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center are shut down. There is no and the route is truncated to 125 Street for a transfer to the . The routes provide alternative service.

[bobtehpanda]

On 11/30/2017 at 3:13 AM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Wouldn't all those shuttle buses (entirely on overtime) end up costing more than the "savings" from not running the trains (on straight time)?

Construction workers and maintenance workers are also paid overtime, so no.

[CenSin]

Expanded FASTRACK (Part 2):

• All of IND Queens Boulevard is shut down from Queens Plaza to Jamaica. trains from Brooklyn terminate at 21 Street–Queensbridge. trains from World Trade Center terminate at Court Square.
• All of the IND Fulton Street tracks from Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets to Grant Avenue are shut down. The route from Manhattan is truncated to Jay Street–MetroTech. The late night becomes a round-robin shuttle serving Ozone Park and the Rockaways.
• All of the IND Culver tracks from Bergen Street to Church Avenue are shut down. The route from Coney Island is truncated to Church Avenue (terminating on the express tracks). The route from Manhattan is truncated to Jay Street–MetroTech. The will single-track between Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets and Bedford–Nostrand Avenues.
• All of the BMT 4 Avenue, West End, and Sea Beach tracks are shut down from Grand Street down. trains terminate at 2 Avenue. trains terminate at Whitehall Street. trains run local via Whitehall Street to compensate. There are no trains.
• All of the Brooklyn IRT tracks from Clark Street are shut down. The route from the Bronx is diverted to South Ferry. The route from the Bronx is truncated to Borough Hall. Alternative service is provided by the (running via Whitehall Street) .

[Interested Rider]

Another one of those ideas from the geniuses who claim to know everything but yet know nothing.

This "suggestion" seems to be another one of the keep the consultants employed so that they can prepare a report that will gather dust on the shelf in some library never to be read years from now.,

Personally, i think that fastrack is a good interim solution to resolving the problem as the key here is money and where is it going to come from to rebuild the system? Until that happens, the system will continue to limp along as it has been doing over the years.

I would like to know who or what woke this sleeping group up or was it another way to justify their existence as if we knew about this problem long ago and were providing meaningful solutions on this forum, why did they wait so long to propose their suggestions. Wait till the suits find out how much money this proposal will cost and watch the fireworks. Then step aside and watch how this group disappears into the woodwork again until someone proposes to cut their funding.

 

[Porter]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:31 AM, Lance said:

Even if the subway was to completely shutdown overnights, that leaves about six hours (presumably 23:00-05:00) to actually do any work, some of which will likely be lost due to staging of materials.

23:00 Friday until 05:00 Monday amounts to 54 continuous hours. Is that insufficient for most projects?

[bulk88]

On 11/30/2017 at 10:26 AM, CenSin said:

The one-way shutdowns must also be accompanied by stricter work zone isolation. Sometimes workers are just stepping out into area that they don’t apparently belong, slowing down traffic to a crawl for all the tracks when only one side is being worked on. I’ve seen instances where these workers are practically ducklings crossing the road—and so many of them one has to wonder what each of their contribution to the work is.

Before the mid 2010s, after http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/11/03/brooklyn-mta-workers-hit-by-train/  and 1 or 2 other worker fatalities, NYCT+TWU have the "adjacent track flagging" policy. Both tracks adjacent to the OOS track must be 5 mph flagged. And all tracks adjacent tracks must be flagged for something like 1.5 miles on both sides (up from 1/4 mile) of the work site. 2 GOes on 1 trunk line and all 10 miles are 5 mph. Pedal bike on street will beat the train all the way to the terminal. DC metro supposedly was built with no manholes between adjacent tracks so they can single track at full speed without issues.

 

My opinion, return the rules back to what they used to be (adjacent tracks not flagged, if still in service but worked on, 1/2 mile or 1/4 mile warning, not 1+ mile). No amount of safety rules can stop stupid or blatant disregard of training by track workers by stepping onto in-service tracks without authorization.

[Daniel The Cool]

14 hours ago, CenSin said:

Expanded FASTRACK:

• All of the IND tracks from 59 Street–Columbus Circle to Inwood and Norwood are shut down. Manhattan-bound trains terminate at 34 Street–Penn Station. Manhattan-bound trains (from Brooklyn) terminate at 42 Street–Bryant Park. The routes provide

That first setup is a little overdoing it plus I doubt they will pay a bunch of platform conductors. And last I check they would have to have someone work at the 34th Street area to turn the  Trains there. And they have already have a Concourse Fastrack which is no service between 161 and 205th Street with extra Trains in The Bronx so thats good enough.

 

And as for Queens Blvd, I hope you do realize that northbound Trains cannot terminate at Court Square. It would have to turn at Queens Plaza.