Bus Route Profiles Released By NYC Comptroller Scott Stringer

[checkmatechamp13]

Just to clarify, some people in Flatlands consider themselves to be in Mill Basin or Bergen Beach (maybe just prestige or they just blindly went by how the realtors sold/rented it to them). I had a friend who said she took the B46 to Mill Basin, and she lived somewhere north of the B41 (I forget where exactly. It might've been all the way up by Avenue H for all I remember).

In any case, if he lives between the B46 & B47, and the B41 is the closest route, then that's pretty much what we would consider Flatlands (since Bergen Beach starts right around where the B3/41 terminal is, and extends south to where the B3 used to terminate before 2010). 

[B35 via Church]

21 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Just to clarify, some people in Flatlands consider themselves to be in Mill Basin or Bergen Beach (maybe just prestige or they just blindly went by how the realtors sold/rented it to them). I had a friend who said she took the B46 to Mill Basin, and she lived somewhere north of the B41 (I forget where exactly. It might've been all the way up by Avenue H for all I remember).

In any case, if he lives between the B46 & B47, and the B41 is the closest route, then that's pretty much what we would consider Flatlands (since Bergen Beach starts right around where the B3/41 terminal is, and extends south to where the B3 used to terminate before 2010). 

As a Brooklynite, if someone mentions that they live in Flatlands, I automatically assume they live along Flatlands av..... That's because nobody ever really mentions that they live in Flatlands (the neighborhood).... Just like New Cassel & Westbury out in Nassau - for as big & as populous as New Cassel is, how in the f*** don't NObody live in New Cassel & Evvvverrybody live in Westbury out there; come on now

But the whole Flatlands dilemma you bring up, is a combination of [prestige] & quite frankly, [how loosely defined it, as a neighborhood, is]....

Much of nobody takes pride in living in Flatlands, because you have as many that are unsure that that they live there to begin with !
That's actually quite sad - given that you have people that take more pride in living in some of the shitholes across this country that they do......

[Via Garibaldi 8]

33 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I still think it's fishy after all this time that the B41's been servicing the area, now some of those folks out there all of a sudden want B41's..... Flatlands patrons I can understand wanting more B41 service (especially after the cut in service (and waned reliability) of the B46 local, thanks to SBS.... On top of one of the least reliable routes in this borough; the B47), but Bergen Beach/Georgetown, nah, AFAIC, something's up.....

Lol @ that summary of the B3.... There are plenty people taking buses along Av. U from the Brighton that are riding past Kings Plaza (and vice versa) & that has been one facet of the route's ridership pattern for the longest & still is to this day.... Yes, the B100 will get you to the Brighton faster, but the B100 still isn't the norm for the majority of folks on that end of the borough.... The B100 should be far more utilized than what it currently is - and the ridership spikes (as Checkmate pointed out) seems to be slowly moving the needle in that direction....

I'd argue that the MTA wants these external transit alternatives (cabs, bikes, dollar vans, etc) to flourish; means less service they have to provide & less resources that has to be expended.... Things are going to get ugly around here if they ever resort to doing their "analysis" which'd have them start "tinkering" with B41 service - and not for the better either.....

This agency doesn't care about the riding public.

I thought he was in Bergen Beach. If he isn't then that changes things completely.

25 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

I don’t live right at the end of the route but close to it and people take the bus to the junction. If the bus is late or if it’s early enough it’s nearly packed by the time it hits east 55th street on avenue N. And it’s us who want more frequent service, maybe not so for those who take the BM1 or live further down but those who live closer up need the service. 

On top of that the B3 did run into Bergen Beach but it was cut back about a few years ago due to budget cuts. I assume those people who lived deep to where the B3 traveled to just ended up getting a car or driving just to not walk blocks to  catch the bus. 

If you don't live at the end of the line, then that's not Bergen Beach. Maybe you're in Old Mill Basin. If that's the case, then I understand the complaints, since the demographics have changed there considerably.

[EastFlatbushLarry]

37 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

As a Brooklynite, if someone mentions that they live in Flatlands, I automatically assume they live along Flatlands av..... That's because nobody ever really mentions that they live in Flatlands (the neighborhood).... Just like New Cassel & Westbury out in Nassau - for as big & as populous as New Cassel is, how in the f*** don't NObody live in New Cassel & Evvvverrybody live in Westbury out there; come on now

But the whole Flatlands dilemma you bring up, is a combination of [prestige] & quite frankly, [how loosely defined it, as a neighborhood, is]....

Much of nobody takes pride in living in Flatlands, because you have as many that are unsure that that they live there to begin with !
That's actually quite sad - given that you have people that take more pride in living in some of the shitholes across this country that they do......

Amen, in regards to the loosely defined "Flatlands" area. When I went to South Shore High School, I lived in Glenwood Houses. That immediate area has been classified, at times, as East Flatbush, Canarsie and/or Flatlands, seeing as all those neighborhoods meet near Ralph Avenue, in some way, shape or form. I personally never called myself a "Flatlands" or Canarsie resident. I've always identified with East Flatbush, originally being from the Tilden Avenue/Snyder Avenue area. The zip code in the Glenwood/South Shore/Mill Basin/Bergen Beach area is shared (if i'm not mistaken, 11234 covers a large number of sub neighborhoods) so I guess it's truly debatable as what is exactly "Flatlands", etc.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

49 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

Amen, in regards to the loosely defined "Flatlands" area. When I went to South Shore High School, I lived in Glenwood Houses. That immediate area has been classified, at times, as East Flatbush, Canarsie and/or Flatlands, seeing as all those neighborhoods meet near Ralph Avenue, in some way, shape or form. I personally never called myself a "Flatlands" or Canarsie resident. I've always identified with East Flatbush, originally being from the Tilden Avenue/Snyder Avenue area. The zip code in the Glenwood/South Shore/Mill Basin/Bergen Beach area is shared (if i'm not mistaken, 11234 covers a large number of sub neighborhoods) so I guess it's truly debatable as what is exactly "Flatlands", etc.

That is true, but the borders for Mill Basin and Bergen Beach have always been well defined, given that both neighorhoods start south of Avenue U. Old Mill Basin, Flatlands and all of that... All NORTH of Avenue U... When I hung out in Mill Basin, you always walked into the neighborhood before you knew you were in Mill Basin because of how the streets are laid out down there. 

Mill Basin and Bergen Beach remind me of Gerritsen Beach in that regard. The northern end is roughly bordered by Avenue U and then the south is surrounded by water and a big park. 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

46 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That is true, but the borders for Mill Basin and Bergen Beach have always been well defined, given that both neighorhoods start south of Avenue U. Old Mill Basin, Flatlands and all of that... All NORTH of Avenue U... When I hung out in Mill Basin, you always walked into the neighborhood before you knew you were in Mill Basin because of how the streets are laid out down there. 

Mill Basin and Bergen Beach remind me of Gerritsen Beach in that regard. The northern end is roughly bordered by Avenue U and then the south is surrounded by water and a big park. 

what I will say is that all these areas share (or will share) a common thread: they're being absolutely underserved in regards to service demand and service output. I'm of an opinion that lines such as the B6, B49, B47 & B44 (local) should be broken up into shorter, more efficient lines to adequately serve the high service demand in certain areas.

There's no way that North & South Ralph Avenue (separated by Kings Hwy, Rockaway Pky, etc) should run on the exact same headways with the B47, same for the B49. The demand for the B49 on Ocean Avenue significantly outweighs the service demand north of Foster Avenue, on Bedford/Rogers Avenues. The B6 should be 3 separate bus lines, bottom line. The B3 on Avenue U is not cutting it anymore, and I know firsthand that the interlines have affected the B3 in the same way the B41 & B46 interline hurt one another some years ago. Even the B2 & B31 aren't exactly what they used to be, prior 2010. The only lines that seem to have gotten drastically better are the Bus Company lines, the Q35, B103 & B100, which don't suffer from NYCTA syndrome at the current time. I'd "love" to see how those lines are affected once they join the rest of us at TA/OA.

I say to people all the time, I was a customer longer than I'll ever be an employee, so sure, getting late/cut slips as an operator is one thing, but when your sister, mother and grandmother rely heavily on bus service in/around these areas, it gets you to thinking... what exactly is getting done to solve these issues? The problem with bus service in this part of Brooklyn is only the beginning of a major, unaddressed issue throughout the boro. I may be in the minority here, but I don't see the purpose of giving me a short-sign to Rockaway Parkway Station eastbound on the B82 local, when myself, my leader, my leaders' leader & my immediate follower are more than 20 minutes down, and sending one lone soul into and out of Spring Creek with more than a 20 minute headway to compensate for inefficient, unadjusted headways throughout the run itself. Traffic conditions in Brooklyn have drastically changed. Population density has drastically changed. There needs to be some form of adjustment to match what conditions are on the road. Operators see the changes firsthand daily. How is it that the entire Road Ops/Road Control/Line "Captains"/Union/Shop Stewards make zero suggestions? It can't be that everyone is looking to get cut slips to put money in their pocket. With my current run being what it is, I'd basically have to be almost 1 1/2 hours late daily in order to see it manifest itself on my paycheck. I have no excuse being 1 1/2 hours late whatsoever. I personally want to see positive changes made, that won't result in runs/run time/run RDO's lost, for Southern Brooklyn for starters. I don't know if building another depot in Canarsie will necessarily "solve" anything... it starts at the grass roots: the bus lines, the runs and run times themselves. THAT is what needs deep evaluation to properly help the areas in and around the 11234 zip code.

[Brillant93]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That is true, but the borders for Mill Basin and Bergen Beach have always been well defined, given that both neighorhoods start south of Avenue U. Old Mill Basin, Flatlands and all of that... All NORTH of Avenue U... When I hung out in Mill Basin, you always walked into the neighborhood before you knew you were in Mill Basin because of how the streets are laid out down there. 

Mill Basin and Bergen Beach remind me of Gerritsen Beach in that regard. The northern end is roughly bordered by Avenue U and then the south is surrounded by water and a big park. 

I was raised around here so to me it’s all the same. I could walk 5 blocks across and be in Bergen beach and walk a few more blocks down I’m in mill basin. Nothing is really different. The same people, businesses, and routes. It’s hard to define where you live because so many people call it old mill basin but yet on the map it’s flatlands. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

49 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

I was raised around here so to me it’s all the same. I could walk 5 blocks across and be in Bergen beach and walk a few more blocks down I’m in mill basin. Nothing is really different. The same people, businesses, and routes. It’s hard to define where you live because so many people call it old mill basin but yet on the map it’s flatlands. 

You may think that but that's like me calling Sheepshead Bay and Manhattan Beach the same neighborhood. Different demographics. Same is true in Mill Basin and Bergen Beach versus Old Mill Basin. Years ago, Old Mill Basin had more people that would drive or take the express bus. The old-timers are moving out and being replaced with people that rely more heavily on the local buses. It's also obvious by the drop in the use of the BM1. Changing demographics is basically happening in most of South Brooklyn. The neighorhoods that haven't changed yet like Mill Basin, Bergen Beach and parts of Bay Ridge have remained more or less the same because they are expensive, but those too will change eventually. That's why you cannot say that they are all the same. The demographics of each neighorhood dictates what service is and isn't needed. 

I grew up in the Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach area and attended IS 43 literally across the street from the Manhattan Beach border (now Bay Academy) and growing up down there, the demographic changes started in the 90s. There was a mass exodus to other parts of South Brooklyn, Staten Island, Long Island or New Jersey. Just about everyone I grew up with down there has moved elsewhere, so the neighborhood I grew up with is no more. With those demographic changes, fewer people use the BM3. The B49 was one of the best routes in South Brooklyn when I was growing up, and to see it what it is now is appalling, but why has it deteriorated? Well I think part of it is that you have more immigrants moving in that aren't as vocal, and some of them moving in have money and could care less about public transportation. All of the new money moving into Manhattan Beach buying those multi-million dollar homes... You see them in their Audis, Porsches and so on. A bus is the last thing they want to be seen on.

1 hour ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

what I will say is that all these areas share (or will share) a common thread: they're being absolutely underserved in regards to service demand and service output. I'm of an opinion that lines such as the B6, B49, B47 & B44 (local) should be broken up into shorter, more efficient lines to adequately serve the high service demand in certain areas.

There's no way that North & South Ralph Avenue (separated by Kings Hwy, Rockaway Pky, etc) should run on the exact same headways with the B47, same for the B49. The demand for the B49 on Ocean Avenue significantly outweighs the service demand north of Foster Avenue, on Bedford/Rogers Avenues. The B6 should be 3 separate bus lines, bottom line. The B3 on Avenue U is not cutting it anymore, and I know firsthand that the interlines have affected the B3 in the same way the B41 & B46 interline hurt one another some years ago. Even the B2 & B31 aren't exactly what they used to be, prior 2010. The only lines that seem to have gotten drastically better are the Bus Company lines, the Q35, B103 & B100, which don't suffer from NYCTA syndrome at the current time. I'd "love" to see how those lines are affected once they join the rest of us at TA/OA.

I say to people all the time, I was a customer longer than I'll ever be an employee, so sure, getting late/cut slips as an operator is one thing, but when your sister, mother and grandmother rely heavily on bus service in/around these areas, it gets you to thinking... what exactly is getting done to solve these issues? The problem with bus service in this part of Brooklyn is only the beginning of a major, unaddressed issue throughout the boro. I may be in the minority here, but I don't see the purpose of giving me a short-sign to Rockaway Parkway Station eastbound on the B82 local, when myself, my leader, my leaders' leader & my immediate follower are more than 20 minutes down, and sending one lone soul into and out of Spring Creek with more than a 20 minute headway to compensate for inefficient, unadjusted headways throughout the run itself. Traffic conditions in Brooklyn have drastically changed. Population density has drastically changed. There needs to be some form of adjustment to match what conditions are on the road. Operators see the changes firsthand daily. How is it that the entire Road Ops/Road Control/Line "Captains"/Union/Shop Stewards make zero suggestions? It can't be that everyone is looking to get cut slips to put money in their pocket. With my current run being what it is, I'd basically have to be almost 1 1/2 hours late daily in order to see it manifest itself on my paycheck. I have no excuse being 1 1/2 hours late whatsoever. I personally want to see positive changes made, that won't result in runs/run time/run RDO's lost, for Southern Brooklyn for starters. I don't know if building another depot in Canarsie will necessarily "solve" anything... it starts at the grass roots: the bus lines, the runs and run times themselves. THAT is what needs deep evaluation to properly help the areas in and around the 11234 zip code.

There is a transformation happening in most of Brooklyn, and that's a problem that the needs to address. The Brooklyn Borough President should be more outspoken, but then again the residents don't speak up enough as it is. As I said up above... You have changing demographics... Hipsters and yuppies taking over some areas with money who won't be caught dead on ANY bus... Immigrants moving in other areas who don't speak much English, and thus aren't vocal. None of my family lives in Brooklyn anymore, and we all grew up there. We are scattered in NY and NJ and elsewhere. Many Brooklynites have left. I think the needs to be re-do the entire bus network in Brooklyn.

[B35 via Church]

18 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You may think that but that's like me calling Sheepshead Bay and Manhattan Beach the same neighborhood. Different demographics. Same is true in Mill Basin and Bergen Beach versus Old Mill Basin. Years ago, Old Mill Basin had more people that would drive or take the express bus. The old-timers are moving out and being replaced with people that rely more heavily on the local buses. It's also obvious by the drop in the use of the BM1. Changing demographics is basically happening in most of South Brooklyn. The neighorhoods that haven't changed yet like Mill Basin, Bergen Beach and parts of Bay Ridge have remained more or less the same because they are expensive, but those too will change eventually. That's why you cannot say that they are all the same. The demographics of each neighorhood dictates what service is and isn't needed. 

I grew up in the Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach area and attended IS 43 literally across the street from the Manhattan Beach border (now Bay Academy) and growing up down there, the demographic changes started in the 90s. There was a mass exodus to other parts of South Brooklyn, Staten Island, Long Island or New Jersey. Just about everyone I grew up with down there has moved elsewhere, so the neighborhood I grew up with is no more. With those demographic changes, fewer people use the BM3. The B49 was one of the best routes in South Brooklyn when I was growing up, and to see it what it is now is appalling, but why has it deteriorated? Well I think part of it is that you have more immigrants moving in that aren't as vocal, and some of them moving in have money and could care less about public transportation. All of the new money moving into Manhattan Beach buying those multi-million dollar homes... You see them in their Audis, Porsches and so on. A bus is the last thing they want to be seen on.

There is a transformation happening in most of Brooklyn, and that's a problem that the needs to address. The Brooklyn Borough President should be more outspoken, but then again the residents don't speak up enough as it is. As I said up above... You have changing demographics... Hipsters and yuppies taking over some areas with money who won't be caught dead on ANY bus... Immigrants moving in other areas who don't speak much English, and thus aren't vocal. None of my family lives in Brooklyn anymore, and we all grew up there. We are scattered in NY and NJ and elsewhere. Many Brooklynites have left. I think the needs to be re-do the entire bus network in Brooklyn.

Old folks are moving out & old money is dying out in some Brooklyn neighborhoods..... Hell, it's going on over there in Kensington/Ditmas Park/Victorian Flatbush... Same deal with parts of Midwood & Madison... There is definitely an ongoing transformation in this borough & in the next decade or so, I'm looking to GTF out of here.... The fabric of this city has been torn & it's to the point where if you're a native NY'er, you're treated like some sort of an outsider by all these transients, transplants, gentrifiers, etc......

While I never predicted the extent of it to happen as quickly as it has, I have said since high school that NYC is going to be the victim of its own demise..... Go on a longstanding, large-scale forum like city-data (NYC section) & you're met with a bunch of housing lottery threads these days... It's a microcosm of a larger issue plaguing a lot of folks in this city.... Displacement, fueled by f***** greed...... The Puerto Ricans saw the writing on the wall before a lot of other NY-ers did.... Now a lot of the ones that were here in the early part of the 90's & years before, are scattered in parts of Pennsylvania, upstate NY, and out in Orlando (what's up Q43LTD !)......

People tend to want their own space (which is another issue... these new apartments being propped up aren't much more than oversized closets, but landlords expect an arm & a leg for them... I wish I would) & shouldn't have to live like pack-rats with strangers or friends to make-do.... If you ask me, this is all by design - extending the college dorm way of living, well into that of people's 30's & beyond.... I will never do the "roommate" thing & I think a lot of millennials have been brainwashed to have that be the norm..... I have heard of yuppies making the same yearly salary as I do (low 90's) and better, shacking up with buddies out there in the LES & Chelsea....

Hell, my most recent ex (who had went & ran off to Bayonne [with her.. now ex-dude ], following behind her friends & their BF's]) is now shacked up with COWORKERS in Hoboken.... After we broke up, she went back w/ family in Washington Hgts. for a couple mos, then found some cornball & moved in with him (don't know where he lived), then they moved to Bayonne (Harbor Pointe), they then moved to Bloomfield (Troy Towers), and now she livv......ing sing....gul in Hoboken w/ coworkers (The Sovereign @ the Shipyard)....  #JerseyGirl all over her IG , tryna to get back w/ me on the low, talking about about some happy birthday, how's my family, yada yada yada... 10 bucks says they're on some Sex and the city type shit..... She always wanted to live in Hoboken when we were together, well now there she is - Sardine-ing on that one-two-six (speaking of buses) through the Lincoln every day with the same people she spends 10+ hours a day in the office with - and I love every second of it ! 

But yeah, we both know the MTA will do squat when it comes to the buses, short of outright cutting service (or "combining" trips) on these routes as ridership continues to diminish..... You would think with as many yuppies moving to this city, that they would be more apt to taking the express bus, but when the great 24/7 NYC subway is shoved into the faces of newcomers to this city, you get what you're gonna get... Going by what some of you have brought up in the subway section of the forum, the platforms at GCT are at dangerous levels of crowding, thanks to the apparent ghosting of trains all of a sudden... Yes, it's incomplete, but so much for SAS being a cure-all for the east side (so far)......

 

21 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

Amen, in regards to the loosely defined "Flatlands" area. When I went to South Shore High School, I lived in Glenwood Houses. That immediate area has been classified, at times, as East Flatbush, Canarsie and/or Flatlands, seeing as all those neighborhoods meet near Ralph Avenue, in some way, shape or form. I personally never called myself a "Flatlands" or Canarsie resident. I've always identified with East Flatbush, originally being from the Tilden Avenue/Snyder Avenue area. The zip code in the Glenwood/South Shore/Mill Basin/Bergen Beach area is shared (if i'm not mistaken, 11234 covers a large number of sub neighborhoods) so I guess it's truly debatable as what is exactly "Flatlands", etc.

Between high school & college, I knew of several people that lived in the Glenwood houses - Each & every one of them claimed Canarsie.

11234, yes, that zip code covers a couple of neighborhoods (Flatlands, Bergen Beach, Mill Basin, Marine Park IINM),.... Unbeknownst to me, know what else 11234 encompasses? Floyd Bennett Field.... That Aviator sports complex out there has that same zip code.... Until I saw a commercial for that sporting arena some years ago, I never knew what zip code that toys r us, that golf course, that seafood place, and the rest of those other establishments out there past Kings Plaza had.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Old folks are moving out & old money is dying out in some Brooklyn neighborhoods..... Hell, it's going on over there in Kensington/Ditmas Park/Victorian Flatbush... Same deal with parts of Midwood & Madison... There is definitely an ongoing transformation in this borough & in the next decade or so, I'm looking to GTF out of here.... The fabric of this city has been torn & it's to the point where if you're a native NY'er, you're treated like some sort of an outsider by all these transients, transplants, gentrifiers, etc......

While I never predicted the extent of it to happen as quickly as it has, I have said since high school that NYC is going to be the victim of its own demise..... Go on a longstanding, large-scale forum like city-data (NYC section) & you're met with a bunch of housing lottery threads these days... It's a microcosm of a larger issue plaguing a lot of folks in this city.... Displacement, fueled by f***** greed...... The Puerto Ricans saw the writing on the wall before a lot of other NY-ers did.... Now a lot of the ones that were here in the early part of the 90's & years before, are scattered in parts of Pennsylvania, upstate NY, and out in Orlando (what's up Q43LTD !)......

People tend to want their own space (which is another issue... these new apartments being propped up aren't much more than oversized closets, but landlords expect an arm & a leg for them... I wish I would) & shouldn't have to live like pack-rats with strangers or friends to make-do.... If you ask me, this is all by design - extending the college dorm way of living, well into that of people's 30's & beyond.... I will never do the "roommate" thing & I think a lot of millennials have been brainwashed to have that be the norm..... I have heard of yuppies making the same yearly salary as I do (low 90's) and better, shacking up with buddies out there in the LES & Chelsea....

Hell, my most recent ex (who had went & ran off to Bayonne [with her.. now ex-dude ], following behind her friends & their BF's]) is now shacked up with COWORKERS in Hoboken.... After we broke up, she went back w/ family in Washington Hgts. for a couple mos, then found some cornball & moved in with him (don't know where he lived), then they moved to Bayonne (Harbor Pointe), they then moved to Bloomfield (Troy Towers), and now she livv......ing sing....gul in Hoboken w/ coworkers (The Sovereign @ the Shipyard)....  #JerseyGirl all over her IG , tryna to get back w/ me on the low, talking about about some happy birthday, how's my family, yada yada yada... 10 bucks says they're on some Sex and the city type shit..... She always wanted to live in Hoboken when we were together, well now there she is - Sardine-ing on that one-two-six (speaking of buses) through the Lincoln every day with the same people she spends 10+ hours a day in the office with - and I love every second of it ! 

But yeah, we both know the MTA will do squat when it comes to the buses, short of outright cutting service (or "combining" trips) on these routes as ridership continues to diminish..... You would think with as many yuppies moving to this city, that they would be more apt to taking the express bus, but when the great 24/7 NYC subway is shoved into the faces of newcomers to this city, you get what you're gonna get... Going by what some of you have brought up in the subway section of the forum, the platforms at GCT are at dangerous levels of crowding, thanks to the apparent ghosting of trains all of a sudden... Yes, it's incomplete, but so much for SAS being a cure-all for the east side (so far)......

I expect SBS to tank soon too. I already avoid the M86... Always bunching and coming in packs during the rush. The M79 has been better in that regard, but people still will ditch the bus and jump in cabs where possible. Those are the people moving in droves to this city that will ditch transit if need be and take Uber. 

I agree about the shacking up part and I refuse to do it either. I think there's something to be said about the number of people shacking up or living at home in their 30s. It's something else that is affecting transit too. They want to live the life in the nicest neighorhood, eat out regularly and take Uber... I see it regularly, but these people are shacking up with roommates to do it and think it is fine, though they don't realize that they are helping drive up rents doing such foolishness. I can't fathom what your ex thinks is so fabulous about Hoboken but more power to her. That place, Weehawken and Jersey City... Once my meetings are done there, I'm on the next bus or train BACK to NY! lol

[B35 via Church]

30 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I expect SBS to tank soon too. I already avoid the M86... Always bunching and coming in packs during the rush. The M79 has been better in that regard, but people still will ditch the bus and jump in cabs where possible. Those are the people moving in droves to this city that will ditch transit if need be and take Uber. 

I agree about the shacking up part and I refuse to do it either. I think there's something to be said about the number of people shacking up or living at home in their 30s. It's something else that is affecting transit too. They want to live the life in the nicest neighorhood, eat out regularly and take Uber... I see it regularly, but these people are shacking up with roommates to do it and think it is fine, though they don't realize that they are helping drive up rents doing such foolishness. I can't fathom what your ex thinks is so fabulous about Hoboken but more power to her. That place, Weehawken and Jersey City... Once my meetings are done there, I'm on the next bus or train BACK to NY! lol

As with all fads, the same thing that ended up happening with LTD service back in the early part of the 2000's will eventually happen with SBS; it'll be looked at as nothing more than a bus that makes less stops than the local buses.... The MTA has used SBS (which we all know is a de facto BRT) to cut even more local bus service than they did w/ the introduction of LTD service.... In the longrun, I seriously believe that the bus network will end up consisting of a lesser amt. of routes traveling longer distances with less service making less "station" (as they're called w/ SBS) stops... Those on here that want artics to become the norm just might get their wish.... SBS'll end up becoming the norm/standard, instead of local buses having stops every 2-3 blocks or whatever....  As transit enthusiasts/aficionados, we can all dream, but as I see it, real BRT & especially LRT city-wide won't happen here; it is what it is.... If or when the subway system goes to pot, I expect people to leave this city in droves.... I don't know what the ratio of cabs to city buses are, but I expect it to skyrocket in generations to come....

Let's see how many jaywalkers there'll be when those self driving cars become the new "in" thing......

As to the other point.... I've never been the one to follow trends (matter fact, I tend to be the exact opposite), so that whole, having (not wanting, but having) to live in the trendiest neighborhoods, living paycheck to paycheck, pissing money away, eating out at these 4-5 star restaurants every night, going to the trendiest bars/clubs every weekend, aint for me.... It's the urban spin of "keeping up with the jones' ".... I have never been interested in trying to impress anyone & the last thing I am is impressionable; for me, it pays to be a stubborn recluse.... Don't know about you, but I find the idea of having less than 4 figures in my savings & checking accounts to be appalling & quite depressing..... If that makes me an elitist, then I'm an elitist.... If I die a miser, I'll have no qualms - but no landlord's suckering me to shell out 4-5k a month to live in some overrated neighborhood in somebody's oversized closet & I'm not going to bother inquiring for people that wanna "go half" with me, just to say that I live in (insert trendy neighborhood here)..... Anyone else that doesn't side with that line of thinking can have at it - but I don't want to see these same people ready & waiting at some traffic light off some frontage road I just might happen to be at, with poland-spring-water-bottle-with-squeegee-equipped-in-hand, aggressively spewing that shit on my front window & vigorously wiping it off & calling it "cleaning" & expecting a f***in "tip" for it when they get up there in age.... I don't care what you have between your legs either.... The action I will be then taking is the commencing of turning on my wipers - and when that light turns green, I'm proceeding accordingly with the rest of moving traffic.... If you end up getting hit, Que sera.... sera.

Hoboken to me is an incomplete Park Slope (is the neighborhood that comes to mind right now)... There is this palpable void that it has, that I can't quite express with words.... Unlike Park Slope, it's not a place to raise a family, it's more for single 20 somethings/early 30 somethings with good paying jobs that wanna get away from the city, but still wanna BE in the city (if that makes sense).... The ex wanted to live there 1] due to the hype, 2] so she can be closer to family (Washington Hgts), 3] somewhere that had "at least train service" and 4] she's a bit of a foodie & isn't much of a cook (which is what I would sometimes tease her about; a dominican mami that can't cook), so being relatively close to a variety of restaurants is something she holds in a certain regard.....

I want no part of living in the gold coast; for all that, I may as well stay here in the middle of Brooklyn, that'll end up getting gentrified like everywhere else these days anyway..... In reality, she has this hatred of Brooklyn (like a lot of Bronxites tend to for whatever reason) & wanted me to move up to the Bronx, so we can go live in one of those apartments she was looking at along Sedgwick, not too far from Camden... I meant, River Park Towers.... "Morris" Park I might have considered, "Morris" Heights? I would have to be in a lifelong drug induced stupor... Now I'm not at all proclaiming that E. Flatbush is the greatest, but I think it's stupid for DINK couples with good salaries to go move in that part of the Bronx.... Just because you were raised around there & you can take a 10 min ride or so over the bridge to go see mi madre & mi abuela.... So much for compromise huh? Another thing, I want my own house, she (as you can tell by that list of places I mentioned in the last post) likes living in these fool's gold high-rise apartment complexes..... Maybe the breakup was a bullet well dodged....

Weehawken, while aesthetic & offers better riverside views (if you're into that sort of thing) than Hoboken, has too weird a vibe to it for me to want to live there..... Also, the layout of the town is very odd; feels like 3, possibly even 4, separate towns in one..... The part on the south end of the helix has crap bus service (where all the office bldgs are at), while the part on the north end of the helix (blvd east to be specific) IMO gets too much bus service....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

26 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

As with all fads, the same thing that ended up happening with LTD service back in the early part of the 2000's will eventually happen with SBS; it'll be looked at as nothing more than a bus that makes less stops than the local buses.... The MTA has used SBS (which we all know is a de facto BRT) to cut even more local bus service than they did w/ the introduction of LTD service.... In the longrun, I seriously believe that the bus network will end up consisting of a lesser amt. of routes traveling longer distances with less service making less "station" (as they're called w/ SBS) stops... Those on here that want artics to become the norm just might get their wish.... SBS'll end up becoming the norm/standard, instead of local buses having stops every 2-3 blocks or whatever....  As transit enthusiasts/aficionados, we can all dream, but as I see it, real BRT & especially LRT city-wide won't happen here; it is what it is.... If or when the subway system goes to pot, I expect people to leave this city in droves.... I don't know what the ratio of cabs to city buses are, but I expect it to skyrocket in generations to come....

Let's see how many jaywalkers there'll be when those self driving cars become the new "in" thing......

As to the other point.... I've never been the one to follow trends (matter fact, I tend to be the exact opposite), so that whole, having (not wanting, but having) to live in the trendiest neighborhoods, living paycheck to paycheck, pissing money away, eating out at these 4-5 star restaurants every night, going to the trendiest bars/clubs every weekend, aint for me.... It's the urban spin of "keeping up with the jones' ".... I have never been interested in trying to impress anyone & the last thing I am is impressionable; for me, it pays to be a stubborn recluse.... Don't know about you, but I find the idea of having less than 4 figures in my savings & checking accounts to be appalling & quite depressing..... If that makes me an elitist, then I'm an elitist.... If I die a miser, I'll have no qualms - but no landlord's suckering me to shell out 4-5k a month to live in some overrated neighborhood in somebody's oversized closet & I'm not going to bother inquiring for people that wanna "go half" with me, just to say that I live in (insert trendy neighborhood here)..... Anyone else that doesn't side with that line of thinking can have at it - but I don't want to see these same people ready & waiting at some traffic light off some frontage road I just might happen to be at, with poland-spring-water-bottle-with-squeegee-equipped-in-hand, aggressively spewing that shit on my front window & vigorously wiping it off & calling it "cleaning" & expecting a f***in "tip" for it when they get up there in age.... I don't care what you have between your legs either.... The action I will be then taking is the commencing of turning on my wipers - and when that light turns green, I'm proceeding accordingly with the rest of moving traffic.... If you end up getting hit, Que sera.... sera.

Hoboken to me is an incomplete Park Slope (is the neighborhood that comes to mind right now)... There is this palpable void that it has, that I can't quite express with words.... Unlike Park Slope, it's not a place to raise a family, it's more for single 20 somethings/early 30 somethings with good paying jobs that wanna get away from the city, but still wanna BE in the city (if that makes sense).... The ex wanted to live there 1] due to the hype, 2] so she can be closer to family (Washington Hgts), 3] somewhere that had "at least train service" and 4] she's a bit of a foodie & isn't much of a cook (which is what I would sometimes tease her about; a dominican mami that can't cook), so being relatively close to a variety of restaurants is something she holds in a certain regard.....

I want no part of living in the gold coast; for all that, I may as well stay here in the middle of Brooklyn, that'll end up getting gentrified like everywhere else these days anyway..... In reality, she has this hatred of Brooklyn (like a lot of Bronxites tend to for whatever reason) & wanted me to move up to the Bronx, so we can go live in one of those apartments she was looking at along Sedgwick, not too far from Camden... I meant, River Park Towers.... "Morris" Park I might have considered, "Morris" Heights? I would have to be in a lifelong drug induced stupor... Now I'm not at all proclaiming that E. Flatbush is the greatest, but I think it's stupid for DINK couples with good salaries to go move in that part of the Bronx.... Just because you were raised around there & you can take a 10 min ride or so over the bridge to go see mi madre & mi abuela.... So much for compromise huh? Another thing, I want my own house, she (as you can tell by that list of places I mentioned in the last post) likes living in these fool's gold high-rise apartment complexes..... Maybe the breakup was a bullet well dodged....

Weehawken, while aesthetic & offers better riverside views (if you're into that sort of thing) than Hoboken, has too weird a vibe to it for me to want to live there..... Also, the layout of the town is very odd; feels like 3, possibly even 4, separate towns in one..... The part on the south end of the helix has crap bus service (where all the office bldgs are at), while the part on the north end of the helix (blvd east to be specific) IMO gets too much bus service....

1) LMAO.... Yes, the old hatred for Brooklyn from Bronxites and vice versa.  Morris Heights... God.... I have turned down SEVERAL tutoring assignments. I said flat out... That area has horrible transportation and is hilly and I am not tutoring there.  Even taking Metro-North it would be hell getting up those damn step streets. Here where I'm at it's hilly with step streets, but we have very good transportation.  It makes a world of difference.  I can always walk down hill if I want to so I have numerous options.  There, I looked at a map and did Google. That Bx18 bus that meanders about because it's so hilly, and the neighborhood is not the greatest either so no thank you.  I have one up by Fordham Oval, but that's in a co-op and the people have been civilized (BxM3 in and Metro-North out or BxM3 in and out if I'm going back to Manhattan), but I've had at least three offers to tutor in Morris Heights and turned all of them down. lol

2) Yes, I agree about Hoboken. I had a meeting there and walked from Path.  I was actually with a few people that grew up in the area and considered stopping off somewhere to eat, but something about that area is off putting.  Like this wanna be neighborhood... As you said Park Slopish... LMAO

3) Bronxites tend to believe that Brooklyn has the WORST neighborhoods. Growing up I had a friend in Pelham Bay who I'd hang out with in the city.  Then I knew nothing of the Bronx. Italian guy... I always wondered how in the hell does this guy live in the Bronx? Quite frankly I don't see anything great about Pelham Bay, especially aesthetically. I find most of the Bronx pretty ugly, but somehow it has this old school NY feel to it that takes you back in time that seems to be lost in the other boroughs.  We'll see how long that lasts.  The entire city is undergoing a transformation so now I see a lot of "new faces" here in Riverdale as prices go up. Lots of Manhattanites coming up trying to escape the ever increasing rents, but they aren't much cheaper here either as the prices keep going up. lol Just more room price...

Regarding the restaurant and money thing, I actually cook a lot at home now since I've moved to my renovated apartment and really enjoy it. My dinners are just as good as eating out and when I need to eat a four star place, I can hop on the express bus and head to Manhattan. We have a few places here that have tried to get in on the whole trendy thing... Hasn't worked out so far, but there is an excellent pizzeria just down the hill in Kingsbridge that I may start frequenting. I don't do any of these pizzerias here in Riverdale. I get my stuff from the city or get the ingredients from Whole Foods and make it myself. All organic and fresh. The one thing I enjoyed on Staten Island... Pat & Joe's on Victory.

[Deucey]

On 1/14/2018 at 6:40 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I find most of the Bronx pretty ugly, but somehow it has this old school NY feel to it that takes you back in time that seems to be lost in the other boroughs.

That's because it's not been touched by hipsters with money bringing suburban values and sensitivities to the City, unlike Bk and Manhattan below 130th St.

Every time I walk Findlay Ave and look at my grandmother's house at 168th St, or by my cousin's old apartment at Sheridan and 170th, I see that same NYC from when I was a teenager: gritty, grimy, dirty, but still a community.

May the Concourse never change.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, Deucey said:

That's because it's not been touched by hipsters with money bringing suburban values and sensitivities to the City, unlike Bk and Manhattan below 130th St.

Every time I walk Findlay Ave and look at my grandmother's house at 168th St, or by my cousin's old apartment at Sheridan and 170th, I see that same NYC from when I was a teenager: gritty, grimy, dirty, but still a community.

May the Concourse never change.

The Bronx is being gentrified trust me... To live in Kingsbridge now, the rents for a one bedroom are around $1600...  Just a few years ago it was more like $1300... Even the worse parts are like $1300 - 1500 now at the floor. Crazy... It isn't hipsters, but I'm guessing people being pushed out from other areas of the city.  

[Deucey]

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The Bronx is being gentrified trust me... To live in Kingsbridge now, the rents for a one bedroom are around $1600...  Just a few years ago it was more like $1300... Even the worse parts are like $1300 - 1500 now at the floor. Crazy... It isn't hipsters, but I'm guessing people being pushed out from other areas of the city.  

And I was just hoping it was confined to River Ave/161st St and Bruckner Bl by the 3rd Av Bridge.

When I finally stopped living with family, I started looking on Gerard and on Walden because those blocks between 161 and 170 were always shitholes and cheap...

Boy was I surprised...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, Deucey said:

And I was just hoping it was confined to River Ave/161st St and Bruckner Bl by the 3rd Av Bridge.

When I finally stopped living with family, I started looking on Gerard and on Walden because those blocks between 161 and 170 were always shitholes and cheap...

Boy was I surprised...

No, you do a search on Trulia and you will be shocked. The Bronx is not cheap anymore... What's scary to me is the crappy neighborhoods are almost as expensive or as expensive as the good ones.  In the really crappy areas, they gut renovate the entire apartment, and then add really high-end finishes that you would find in new construction and then put in stackable washer and dryer. If it's close to subway line well they'll find some sucker to pay.  Check out this one... $1749 for a one bedroom in University Heights?!?? Really??! lol!

https://www.trulia.com/rental/4041305104-2175-Cedar-Ave-5D-Bronx-NY-10468#photo-7

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, you do a search on Trulia and you will be shocked. The Bronx is not cheap anymore... What's scary to me is the crappy neighborhoods are almost as expensive or as expensive as the good ones.  In the really crappy areas, they gut renovate the entire apartment, and then add really high-end finishes that you would find in new construction and then put in stackable washer and dryer. If it's close to subway line well they'll find some sucker to pay.  Check out this one... $1749 for a one bedroom in University Heights?!?? Really??! lol!

https://www.trulia.com/rental/4041305104-2175-Cedar-Ave-5D-Bronx-NY-10468#photo-7

To be fair, in unit washer and dryer is really the best amenity one could ask for, and one that's surprisingly hard to find at a decent price.

But this website was clearly made by white people:

 

[Deucey]

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, you do a search on Trulia and you will be shocked. The Bronx is not cheap anymore... What's scary to me is the crappy neighborhoods are almost as expensive or as expensive as the good ones.  In the really crappy areas, they gut renovate the entire apartment, and then add really high-end finishes that you would find in new construction and then put in stackable washer and dryer. If it's close to subway line well they'll find some sucker to pay.  Check out this one... $1749 for a one bedroom in University Heights?!?? Really??! lol!

https://www.trulia.com/rental/4041305104-2175-Cedar-Ave-5D-Bronx-NY-10468#photo-7

I feel like, given how shitty parking is over there, and how close it is to the Deegan (along with the neighborhood grit is with all the long-term voucher recipients around), that that is way overpriced for anyone not interested in using Metro North to get anywhere.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, Deucey said:

I feel like, given how shitty parking is over there, and how close it is to the Deegan (along with the neighborhood grit is with all the long-term voucher recipients around), that that is way overpriced for anyone not interested in using Metro North to get anywhere.

Yes and Metro-North is not that frequent there either. I tutor near there in a co-op, and the family was like yeah, the apartments are really cheap here (they moved from Manhattan), and you could buy a place here. Meanwhile as the father was letting me in, he's talking to his neighbor who tells him how someone's car was just busted into off of Sedgwick. LOL Transportation isn't that great either. The nearest subway is a schlepp and the BxM3 isn't all that frequent, even during the rush. No thank you. My $1600 studio feels like a deal more and more everyday when I see what is out there. lol I have great transportation options that are lacking in most other areas of the city when you look at the bus and subway crisis we have.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

To be fair, in unit washer and dryer is really the best amenity one could ask for, and one that's surprisingly hard to find at a decent price.

But this website was clearly made by white people:

 

Correct, but they're only adding that because they know who they are targeting. You look at those gut renovated apartments in the historic Mott Haven area... They want hipsters or transplants who will shack up and split a two bedroom for say $2100 or so. Hey it's close to the train, even if it runs like crap. 

[checkmatechamp13]

 

I uploaded the general list to this link: http://docdro.id/DrQD9X9

I might break it down later per-borough.

So here are the top 10 and bottom 10 (bottom 10s are listed from top to bottom):

Offhand, I'm surprised the M100 carried more riders per trip than the M101.

Weekday Per Trip:
BX19
BX40/42
B8
B82
Q44+
BX12 LCL/SBS
BX1/2
M15 LCL/SBS
M100
BX39

Bottom 10:
B84
BXM2
BX24
BXM4
BX46
M12
S56
M35
S55
B39

Weekday Per Stop (Per Trip):
Q70 SBS
BX12 LCL/SBS
M86 SBS
M34/34A SBS
M96
M79
Q113
M66
BX41 LCL/SBS
M60 SBS

Bottom 10:

S74/84
BM3
M12
BXM2
S78
BXM4
S57
S54
S56
S55

Weekday Per Revenue Mile:
M86 SBS
M79
M34/34A SBS
M96
M66
M23 SBS
M42
M116
M14A/D
Q49

Bottom 10:

QM17
S56
QM4/34
QM21
BM3
BXM3
BXM11
BXM4
S55
BXM2

Weekday Per Revenue Hour:
M86 SBS
BX12 LCL/SBS
M34/34A SBS
M66
B74
M79
M96
Q49
M23 SBS
M116

Bottom 10:

BXM18
QM21
BXM1
BM3
QM4/34
BXM3
S55
BXM11
BXM2
BXM4

Weekend Per Trip:
BX19
Q25
B82
Q44 SBS
B6
BX1/2
BX12 LCL/SBS
Q65
B08
BX15

Bottom 10:

BM5
B84
M12
X28
BX24
BXM04
QM04
BM4
BX46
B39

Weekend Per Stop (Per Trip):
Q70 SBS
BX12 LCL/SBS
M86 SBS
Q53
M96
Q44 SBS
M79
M60 SBS
M34/34A SBS
BX41 LCL/SBS

Bottom 10:
BXM3
S59
BX24
S74
BM3
M12
BXM2
S78
BXM04
S57

Weekend Per Revenue Mile:
M86 SBS
M96
M79
M116
BX35
BX13
M34/34A SBS
Q49
M14A/D
BX19

Bottom 10:

BXM3
BM2
QM06
BM1
BM5
BM3
BXM4
QM04
X28
BM4

Weekend Per Revenue Hour:
M86 SBS
BX12 LCL/SBS
M96
B74
M79
M116
Q49
BX35
Q64
M66

Bottom 10:
QM6
BXM03
BM2
BM1
BM5
BM3
QM4
BXM4
X28
BM4 

 

[B35 via Church]

8 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Offhand, I'm surprised the M100 carried more riders per trip than the M101.

I'm more surprised that the M100 has slightly more service than the M101 during most of the weekday (guess I should pay more attention to the posted headways.... Lol).... I see you've been getting some nice piece of data from Stephen Bauman there on Subchat; if that per trip data includes short turn trips, then what you just brought up there doesn't surprise me at all.... Those M101 short turns don't do so hot.....

[checkmatechamp13]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:57 PM, B35 via Church said:

I'm more surprised that the M100 has slightly more service than the M101 during most of the weekday (guess I should pay more attention to the posted headways.... Lol).... I see you've been getting some nice piece of data from Stephen Bauman there on Subchat; if that per trip data includes short turn trips, then what you just brought up there doesn't surprise me at all.... Those M101 short turns don't do so hot.....

2

Yeah, it includes all trips. And yeah, the bunching on the M101 makes it seem more frequent than it is. I feel really bad for people living on the standalone portion on Amsterdam, since they sometimes try to fix some of the bunching by turning some buses at 161st Street, even when there's no Fort George bus nearby). I randomly checked BusTime yesterday and saw a 30 minute gap in M101 service at the Fort George terminal. If I lived in that area, I'd definitely be using the M3 as my main bus (though at least Amsterdam moves in that part of Washington Heights, at least when I've taken it. It seems like there's more passenger activity down in Hamilton Heights that slows it down more). 

BTW, how do the M3 buses turn around at the last northbound stop? I see a little cutout on Google Maps: Do they pull into the cutout and make a U-turn?

[Future ENY OP]

On 1/14/2018 at 11:28 AM, B35 via Church said:

 

Between high school & college, I knew of several people that lived in the Glenwood houses - Each & every one of them claimed Canarsie.

11234, yes, that zip code covers a couple of neighborhoods (Flatlands, Bergen Beach, Mill Basin, Marine Park IINM),.... Unbeknownst to me, know what else 11234 encompasses? Floyd Bennett Field.... That Aviator sports complex out there has that same zip code.... Until I saw a commercial for that sporting arena some years ago, I never knew what zip code that toys r us, that golf course, that seafood place, and the rest of those other establishments out there past Kings Plaza had.....

I for one when I think of Glenwood houses I think of the zip code 11234 and not 11236.

However, you look at maps Glenwood Houses is in Canarsie 11236  

When you cross Ralph Avenue certain parts are 11236 and that's only between Glenwood Road and Foster Avenue. However, once you cross Flatlands Avenue you immediately hit 11234. Same goes for when crossing the LIRR bridge on Ralph and you hit zip code 11203 which covers a whole chunk of East Flatbush.  

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

...If I lived in that area, I'd definitely be using the M3 as my main bus (though at least Amsterdam moves in that part of Washington Heights, at least when I've taken it. It seems like there's more passenger activity down in Hamilton Heights that slows it down more). 

BTW, how do the M3 buses turn around at the last northbound stop? I see a little cutout on Google Maps: Do they pull into the cutout and make a U-turn?

Well, from what I've noticed over the years, the M3 is utilized more within Washington Hgts., but the M101 is used for longer distances (this includes getting to Harlem)... Those folks up there are more apt to taking the M101 to get to 125th over the M3....

Don't remember what year it was or whatever, but I remember an argument b/w a handful of folks or so that had broke out on RD, regarding the turnaround & layover scenarios of both the M3 & M101... I remember one dude saying that it terminated at 193th (which is true), but the turnaround scenario had buses running up to Dyckman to turnaround, which he felt made no sense (which made no sense, because it wasn't true).... It was arguments like that that made me want to go out fanning routes from end to end... The bus maps can only do so much (and of course, this was before the era of bustime).... The Manhattan map didn't always show the M101's descension along St. Nicholas to get to 190th, to get back to Amsterdam - it just showed a straight line (much like that of the M3; paralleling the M3) & had it looking like it ended in some arbitrary spot before the part of Ft. George av. that starts to curl....

To your question though, M3's are supposed to use that cutout, yes... Some b/o's still don't, despite the measures that have been made to stop that illegal u-turning where Ft. George av. meets Audubon..... If other motorists still engage in that practice, I wouldn't know....