Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[BrooklynBus]

28 minutes ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

Rebuilding that bridge would be great, even the pedestrian walk way is tight. Idk why couldn't they do it when they rebuilt the rest of the Belt..?

It was fairly new having been replaced just a few years before.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

While this route would likely be faster than taking local streets, they have to address why the Belt Parkway is chronically congested eastbound, up to the bridge over the Brooklyn/Queens border. I’m not sure if it’s the grade change or sight distance and/or the cars entering from Gateway, but it’s annoying.

I grew up not too far from the Belt Parkway.  Always been a mess. Like @BrooklynBus said it's just an issue of volume.  The times I've used it, I've been shocked when it wasn't backed up.

 

[rfecker]

Routes that i live by use

B15 needs to have a limited variant that runs to JFK run it exp after new lots avenue  the  train stop at new lots on linden at a stop at the movie theatre elderts lane then nonstop to the airport.

B20 needs to stay on Wortman but also needs to go up linden from postal factory as the people that live off elders lane take the 20 bus to other side of east new york its good that its express and rush route now

B13 is great i just dont like it not going thru elders lane now the B14 frequency has to be buffered which is possible since b13 no longer serve postal factory

but it needs to drop off right in front the & northbound

B10 needs to renamed as B12 LTD because that's all it is and gonna confuse people

there are way too many buses going thru Broadway junction it causes a congestion.

good job on the B14 turning it off euclid to linden blvd i like that now its gonna pick people up and drop them the sutter ave euclid stop was not a good look 

B83 is great faster route to pennsylvania on the  and to Broadway junction

why take the B82 off Coney island when people that live along that route might want to go there in the summer 

is there any study that people getting off Newlots Avenue want to go to queens via the Q8 

i think it should go to newlots and then swing to gateway via the B84 route .

the B7 is a long bus route already now having it go to queens is too long

why they take the B46 off Williamsburg theres people that ride that route pass dekalb not a lot but some 

not sure how to feel about the B5 its weird to have all them busses along that route the B6 is already alot on flatlands ave 

im for the B48 route serving navy yard and sands st.

B16 being extended to utica classon is very interesting and long route hope they get ridership

let me know if you agree disagree.

 

 

 

[N6 Limited]

15 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

It’s just got too many cars. They should have widened it when it was reconstructed. Anyway they did add a shoulder which can be used as a bus lane for mist of the way. A small portion needs a minor upgrade to make it usable. The only place where the bus would have to use the regular lanes is over Hendrix Creek near the Brooklyn Queens border, unless they rebuild the bridge to make it wider. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I grew up not too far from the Belt Parkway.  Always been a mess. Like @BrooklynBus said it's just an issue of volume.  The times I've used it, I've been shocked when it wasn't backed up.

 

While I understand that the Belt Parkway has always had congestion problems, since they’ve rebuilt many of the bridges it has been mostly flowing in that section. Except  that, when eastbound traffic is congested in Brooklyn, it’s usually up to the “Betts Creek” bridge (Brooklyn/Queens Border), and then fine after that, until the usual delays around Guy R Brewer Blvd. So, it appears to be some sort of bottleneck. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, N6 Limited said:

 

While I understand that the Belt Parkway has always had congestion problems, since they’ve rebuilt many of the bridges it has been mostly flowing in that section. Except  that, when eastbound traffic is congested in Brooklyn, it’s usually up to the “Betts Creek” bridge (Brooklyn/Queens Border), and then fine after that, until the usual delays around Guy R Brewer Blvd. So, it appears to be some sort of bottleneck. 

Certainly possible.

[BrooklynBus]

14 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

 

While I understand that the Belt Parkway has always had congestion problems, since they’ve rebuilt many of the bridges it has been mostly flowing in that section. Except  that, when eastbound traffic is congested in Brooklyn, it’s usually up to the “Betts Creek” bridge (Brooklyn/Queens Border), and then fine after that, until the usual delays around Guy R Brewer Blvd. So, it appears to be some sort of bottleneck. 

The Belt Parkway was built in 1940 with four lanes with plans to add two more around 1960. But it proved so popular that the extra two lanes were added just ten years later in 1950. It already needed another two lanes by 1960 barring the addition of mass transit. However, it never received any additional lanes but carries like six times the traffic it did in 1950, hence all. The congestion. The morning rush is like 6AM to 10 AM and the evening rush begins at 2 PM and ends around 7 PM. During those hours in the peak direction traffic barely moves at all.

Since the lanes were widened and shoulders added with improved entrances and exits, traffic does flow better. It clears up eastbound at the Queens border because it goes from three lanes to six lanes in each direction if you include Conduit. 
 

[N6 Limited]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The Belt Parkway was built in 1940 with four lanes with plans to add two more around 1960. But it proved so popular that the extra two lanes were added just ten years later in 1950. It already needed another two lanes by 1960 barring the addition of mass transit. However, it never received any additional lanes but carries like six times the traffic it did in 1950, hence all. The congestion. The morning rush is like 6AM to 10 AM and the evening rush begins at 2 PM and ends around 7 PM. During those hours in the peak direction traffic barely moves at all.

Since the lanes were widened and shoulders added with improved entrances and exits, traffic does flow better. It clears up eastbound at the Queens border because it goes from three lanes to six lanes in each direction if you include Conduit. 
 

Does the Belt Parkway have a peak direction? It’s traffic patterns are seemingly random. 

The conduit does not flank the Belt Parkway until Cross Bay Blvd, if that was the determining factor then congestion would not clear up magically at the Queens Border, but at exit 17/ Nassau Expressway exit. 

[BrooklynBus]

17 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Does the Belt Parkway have a peak direction? It’s traffic patterns are seemingly random. 

The conduit does not flank the Belt Parkway until Cross Bay Blvd, if that was the determining factor then congestion would not clear up magically at the Queens Border, but at exit 17/ Nassau Expressway exit. 

I don’t find that it magically clears up at the Queens border. It usually clears up at Cross Bay. 
 

It definitely does have a peak direction. In the AM rush the heaviest part is from Knapp to the Verrazano Bridge westbound. It’s also heavy from Queens to the Conduit Blvd exit westbound.
 

I don’t think eastbound is too bad until about 1 or 2 PM  when the PM rush starts and it’s heavy from Flatbush to Cross Bay eastbound. Also, around the same time westbound traffic starts building between Knapp St and the VB. After 3, it gets heavy eastbound between the Verrazano and Cross Bay. 
 

Weekend and summer patterns are different. Warm summer weekends it’s usually heavy all over. 

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The Belt Parkway was built in 1940 with four lanes with plans to add two more around 1960. But it proved so popular that the extra two lanes were added just ten years later in 1950. It already needed another two lanes by 1960 barring the addition of mass transit. However, it never received any additional lanes but carries like six times the traffic it did in 1950, hence all. The congestion. The morning rush is like 6AM to 10 AM and the evening rush begins at 2 PM and ends around 7 PM. During those hours in the peak direction traffic barely moves at all.

Since the lanes were widened and shoulders added with improved entrances and exits, traffic does flow better. It clears up eastbound at the Queens border because it goes from three lanes to six lanes in each direction if you include Conduit. 
 

But I thought adding lanes causes more traffic! /s 🙄

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

But I thought adding lanes causes more traffic! /s 🙄

Adding lanes does encourage more traffic, but not when it removes a bottleneck. And it takes years before more traffic is encouraged. The Belt Parkway has usable service roads for part of its length. Where that occurs, the service roads handles some of the overflow making conditions on the highway better. Between Ocean Parkway and Knapp Street, there are service roads. So if you consider them, the road is really five lanes in each direction between those points. Between Knapp St and Queens, there are none, so there really is a merge from five lanes to three when the traffic is very heavy. There needs to be a fourth lane where there is no service road. Using the shoulder for a bus lane would reduce the need for an extra lane. If you don’t want to add lanes, then a bridge should be built to connect Avenue U and Seaview Ave, because the only alternative to the Belt over there is Flatlands Ave which adds 20 minutes to your trip, so it only pays to use it as an alternative if traffic is under about 15 mph. Residents however, do not want more traffic, but they shouldn’t have the final say. One or the other needs to be done. Traffic will only get worse, doing nothing which is what the city wants anyway. 

[N6 Limited]

16 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don’t find that it magically clears up at the Queens border. It usually clears up at Cross Bay

You can monitor google maps and observe the chokepoint as well.

[rfecker]

is there a demand for all these Brooklyn into queens buses because i don't see people taking the Q8 from new lots Avenue train station. or the bus into Sunnyside or the bus from queens to gateway the way it will get stuck in traffic 

[BrooklynBus]

There is demand for some of them. I don’t think the Sunnyside one as they have proposed is warranted.

[TheMTAEmprie]

Anyone think the B81 could be for MTA bus? For that matter, why wasn't the B110 included for a takeover?

[EastFlatbushLarry]

12 minutes ago, TheMTAEmprie said:

...why wasn't the B110 included for a takeover?

because Private Transportation was never discussed as part of the DOT franchises the city wanted to unload. also, the Jewish community would never allow that to happen. 

15 minutes ago, TheMTAEmprie said:

Anyone think the B81 could be for MTA bus?

more than likely, Jackie Gleason will get that work. they're really not about showing any love to Spring Creek Depot... not by a long shot. by design alone, that's a NYCTA line. 

 

On 2/15/2023 at 11:04 AM, rfecker said:

is there any study that people getting off Newlots Avenue want to go to queens via the Q8

no, however i personally know of people along 101 Avenue that do a 3 legged transfer of either Q8-B15- or Q8-B84- (3). may not be the majority, but it's got more potential than running buses carrying air to/from gateway. I'm shocked they haven't adjusted paddles to run more Euclid short signs to be honest. i have alot of criticisms about this redesign, however, i don't hate the Q8 to new lots avenue. I personally hate the current setup around new lots once you leave the train. B15, B6.. and nothing else? 

 

On 2/15/2023 at 11:04 AM, rfecker said:

why they take the B46 off Williamsburg theres people that ride that route pass dekalb not a lot but some

because they want to cram this B53 garbage down people's collective throats

On 2/15/2023 at 11:04 AM, rfecker said:

B10 needs to renamed as B12 LTD because that's all it is and gonna confuse people

the point of calling it the B10 is to signify to people that it's NOT serving downstate & kings county hospitals and is staying on empire, as opposed to having bus operators explain the difference to people who are too careless to pay attention. 

 

On 2/15/2023 at 11:04 AM, rfecker said:

why take the B82 off Coney island when people that live along that route might want to go there in the summer

no one in that community goes to coney Island for anything, that's first of all. if they want the beach, they drive to jones Beach or the jersey shore. people who live in Bensonhurst/Gravesend view coney island as ghetto. secondly, the only people who utilize the 82 are home health aides & nurses down that strip of cropsey. the 82 carries air south of Ulmer Park Depot. passenger service has consistently taken an absolute nosedive to/from Stillwell over the past decade. I'm shocked they're still doing that. i remember being at east ny depot and lateness on that run would cause most of our runs to be short turned at Ulmer Park. Stillwell terminal wasn't that big of a deal back then (2009) hence why 82 sbs's don't go there. for the time being they need to cut overnite service from Stillwell imo. the 82 now reminds me of the B12 back then. they barely sent buses to Cypress hill to the point it service cut and never came back. 

[BrooklynBus]

The B110 actually makes money so why include it in an MTA takeover?

For those who don’t know its history, the Williamsburg and Borough Park Communities first approached the MTA for such a route. Since the MTA knows everything, they responded that there would be no demand for such a service, so they just started their own company and proved the MTA wrong. Be nice if every community who the MTA turns down would do that. 

[ABOGbrooklyn]

1 hour ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

 

no one in that community goes to coney Island for anything, that's first of all. if they want the beach, they drive to jones Beach or the jersey shore. people who live in Bensonhurst/Gravesend view coney island as ghetto.

You are very wrong about this. Majority is Bensonhurst is poorer immigrant and working class. It's not the old working class italian neighborhood it was of the 90s. I know plenty of Bensonhurst people who go to Coney Island for the beach except they don't take the B82 when the D, N and F trains go to Coney faster than a bus.

Edited February 16, 2023 by ABOGbrooklyn

[EastFlatbushLarry]

47 minutes ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

You are very wrong about this. Majority is Bensonhurst is poorer immigrant and working class. It's not the old working class italian neighborhood it was of the 90s. I know plenty of Bensonhurst people who go to Coney Island for the beach except they don't take the B82 when the D, N and F trains go to Coney faster than a bus.

i could be operating off of old information. i never claim to be an expert. if that's in fact the case, i appreciate the correction. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

You are very wrong about this. Majority is Bensonhurst is poorer immigrant and working class. It's not the old working class italian neighborhood it was of the 90s. I know plenty of Bensonhurst people who go to Coney Island for the beach except they don't take the B82 when the D, N and F trains go to Coney faster than a bus.

 

3 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

No one in that community goes to coney Island for anything, that's first of all. if they want the beach, they drive to jones Beach or the jersey shore. people who live in Bensonhurst/Gravesend view coney island as ghetto. secondly, the only people who utilize the 82 are home health aides & nurses down that strip of cropsey. the 82 carries air south of Ulmer Park Depot. passenger service has consistently taken an absolute nosedive to/from Stillwell over the past decade. I'm shocked they're still doing that. i remember being at east ny depot and lateness on that run would cause most of our runs to be short turned at Ulmer Park. Stillwell terminal wasn't that big of a deal back then (2009) hence why 82 sbs's don't go there. for the time being they need to cut overnite service from Stillwell imo. the 82 now reminds me of the B12 back then. they barely sent buses to Cypress hill to the point it service cut and never came back. 

I'd say you are both wrong.  People in Southern Brooklyn absolutely went to Coney Island back in the day, myself included. Bensonhurst was a middle class Italian area back years ago (I wouldn't call it working class - not quite the same thing - it was a place where people who made it to the middle class moved to who worked their way up).  Now it is indeed more immigrant overall, though I wouldn't call it poor.  I'm sure some of the immigrant population, esp. if they are new arrivals may be working class or perhaps poor, but to categorize the whole neighborhood as poor is crazy. Simply not true.

With the demographic changes there, both in Bensonhurst & Coney Island that there is a stronger connection between the two areas, especially now. Lots of Russians in Coney Island moving in from Brighton Beach and some in Bensonhurst as well, along with Asians, with some Italians still there and other groups (most have left, but there are definitely still some Italians there). 

[B35 via Church]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:23 PM, aemoreira81 said:

A few things I notice:

1. Is there a real need for a Broadway Junction super-hub to warrant a split of a route like the B60, unless Broadway Junction gets full ADA access?

2. On the B5 and B82 SBS, I have to wonder if the lines should be combined into one that has a north and south branch (and instead be B50A and B50B…A via Brooklyn College and Cozine Avenue and B via Kings Highway and Spring Creek Towers). The other issue is: Gateway Drive will be clogged with buses terminating there with the B5 (B50), B13, B83, and Q51 all terminating there.

3. Operationally, the B55 will be interesting as you could have the problem you have with super-long routes, especially since a long time will be spent on narrow streets (Church Avenue and New Lots Avenue. Dispatch will have to be wary and potentially turn buses at Drew Street. It will also be interesting if that route comes out of Gleason only, as opposed to Gleason and JFK. I also see this as needing to be Select Bus…and would it make sense to route the B55 onto Linden between Nostrand/New York and Mother Gaston Boulevard, reconfiguring parts of the main road to accommodate SBS stops between Kings Highway and Rockaway Avenue? (At Mother Gaston, the route would have to return to New Lots to serve the  train.)

4. Speaking of Church Avenue service, what about rerouting the B67/B69 down 39 Street from their southern terminus, to end the B35 at Fort Hamilton Parkway and 36 Street (to connect with the B16 still)? I would send the B67/69 down 15 Avenue and 39 Street to 1 Avenue…which would be close to what would have been deadhead distance for the two routes, especially with the B67 being cut from the Navy Yard. The B35 would run Kensington to Brownsville only.

1) So if B'way Junction had elevators, that would further warrant a] splitting the B60 there & b] turning it into a quote-unquote super hub??

2) Absolutely not; the two routes have zero reason to act as complements to each other.... That would likely end up resulting in the robbery of service on BOTH [the B5] & [the B82 SBS] of service...

...And to the other point about terminal space at Gateway Drive, they could always have one of them ending at the old terminal (Seaview/Erskine) - much like the current B84 does.... Now which route would end up getting shafted (as in, not serving the terminal at Gateway II) in such a situation, is another discussion.....

3/4) At minimum, you would have to overserve the B67/69 to have it to where [service levels]/[addressed demand] would be commensurate with that of current B35 service.... Nevermind the fact that that would mainly address the demand for the , which I'd say has waned.... Nowadays, more & more of those folks (39th st area riders) are gunning for the over the .... Demand for the to me, seems like it's more or less the same..... But yeah, while waiting for EB buses (the LTD's from Sunset Park) at McDonald av, buses don't exactly tank out the way they used to... I honestly can't see anyone along/around 39th st bothering riding those extended B67's/B69's north of Church av (as in, going on to doing the current B67/69 routing north of Church).....

You're inquiring on cutting the proposed B35 locals back to Ft. Hamilton Pkwy (which is a stub), but the demand for service starts well west of that, over at 5th av.... You'd be screwing too many ppl. along 39th with what you're suggesting.... That is why the MTA likely, simply, decided to run the proposed B35 (as, the local) out to Sunset Park.... At the same time, the MTA wouldn't have to extend the B35 local to Sunset Park, if they didn't have the Church av. skip-stop service cut back to McDonald av ( because they're proposing extending it out to JFK on the other end of the route)... So this definitely isn't to say that I agree with the MTA's plan in this regard, because I don't....

As far as the B16, you would think it'd be symbiotic, but that connection mainly/largely benefits B16 riders coming from points south; not too many on the B35 (from either end of the route) is trying to get to the B16 like that....

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i could be operating off of old information. i never claim to be an expert. if that's in fact the case, i appreciate the correction. 

Damn.... Yeah fam, majority of those old school Italians high tailed it out of Bensonhurst (of the ones that are still alive & kicking, that is)..... Asians done took that part of Brooklyn over; which helped out B4 patronage immensely... LMFAO! I don't even have to mention the infamous B1 (but being fair, there were other changes that immensely boosted patronage on that route).....

Back in the day, the old B5, much like the B4 was a low performing route.... If it (B5) were to be reverted, it would do far better....

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The B110 actually makes money so why include it in an MTA takeover?

For those who don’t know its history, the Williamsburg and Borough Park Communities first approached the MTA for such a route. Since the MTA knows everything, they responded that there would be no demand for such a service, so they just started their own company and proved the MTA wrong. Be nice if every community who the MTA turns down would do that. 

Yeah, and this is why to this day, I continue support the dollar cab services..... The cabs along Church av here are $3 now (more than the MTA fare), yet I see no shortage of folks on them..... Nobody cannot tell me any different; when the B35 went from 40' to artics (and before this apparent/current culture of farebeating), I noticed a drastic spike in demand for dollar cabs around here.... Why, because overall service decreased.... So while not exactly a 1-to-1 comparison, I still concur with the point.

Edited February 17, 2023 by B35 via Church

[Lawrence St]

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The B110 actually makes money so why include it in an MTA takeover?

For those who don’t know its history, the Williamsburg and Borough Park Communities first approached the MTA for such a route. Since the MTA knows everything, they responded that there would be no demand for such a service, so they just started their own company and proved the MTA wrong. Be nice if every community who the MTA turns down would do that. 

Back then, yes. But ever since those 2 horrible accidents (the bus getting split in two on I-95 and the limo one in upstate NY) almost every bus insurer has pulled out of the market in the tri-state area. 
 

It sucks to, because I know someone who really wanted to restart some version of the x29 and QM23.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

51 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, and this is why to this day, I continue support the dollar cab services..... The cabs along Church av here are $3 now (more than the MTA fare), yet I see no shortage of folks on them..... Nobody cannot tell me any different; when the B35 went from 40' to artics (and before this apparent/current culture of farebeating), I noticed a drastic spike in demand for dollar cabs around here.... Why, because overall service decreased.... So while not exactly a 1-to-1 comparison, I still concur with the point.

So they've raised the fare to $3 and people still flock to them? lol Two very interesting observations...

1. The  can't get people to pay for its bus service on a heavily used line.

2. People pay more to use a non service. lol

How often do the dollar vans run vs the B35?

Edited February 17, 2023 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BrooklynBus]

I got the MTA to change their incorrect recording they are using at the virtual meetings which stated that proposed overnight frequencies are available on the internet when they are not. I also had them eliminate the line that they are straightening the B16 which they are not. Now the recording says they are simplifying the B16, which is less offensive.

Now let’s see if they correct saying the “Winthrop Avenue Station, when it is the Winthrop Street Station which is what the B16 route profile states. One person making such a mistake is excusable. But what would you call it when 15 MTA and DOT officials who are present at each meeting fails to notice it or just doesn’t care to have it corrected?

[TheMTAEmprie]

21 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

because Private Transportation was never discussed as part of the DOT franchises the city wanted to unload. also, the Jewish community would never allow that to happen. 

more than likely, Jackie Gleason will get that work. they're really not about showing any love to Spring Creek Depot... not by a long shot. by design alone, that's a NYCTA line. 

 

no, however i personally know of people along 101 Avenue that do a 3 legged transfer of either Q8-B15- or Q8-B84- (3). may not be the majority, but it's got more potential than running buses carrying air to/from gateway. I'm shocked they haven't adjusted paddles to run more Euclid short signs to be honest. i have alot of criticisms about this redesign, however, i don't hate the Q8 to new lots avenue. I personally hate the current setup around new lots once you leave the train. B15, B6.. and nothing else? 

 

because they want to cram this B53 garbage down people's collective throats

the point of calling it the B10 is to signify to people that it's NOT serving downstate & kings county hospitals and is staying on empire, as opposed to having bus operators explain the difference to people who are too careless to pay attention. 

 

no one in that community goes to coney Island for anything, that's first of all. if they want the beach, they drive to jones Beach or the jersey shore. people who live in Bensonhurst/Gravesend view coney island as ghetto. secondly, the only people who utilize the 82 are home health aides & nurses down that strip of cropsey. the 82 carries air south of Ulmer Park Depot. passenger service has consistently taken an absolute nosedive to/from Stillwell over the past decade. I'm shocked they're still doing that. i remember being at east ny depot and lateness on that run would cause most of our runs to be short turned at Ulmer Park. Stillwell terminal wasn't that big of a deal back then (2009) hence why 82 sbs's don't go there. for the time being they need to cut overnite service from Stillwell imo. the 82 now reminds me of the B12 back then. they barely sent buses to Cypress hill to the point it service cut and never came back. 

Well, if it's assgned to NYCTA, then JG is almost a 100% guarantee unless FB gets it (which is also doable). However, from what I can tell, looks to me that the B81 is basically just a split route. Basically, the MTA is giving the B103 Limited the M5 treatment and the B81 would be the "M55" segment. In any case, I see no reason why Spring Creek can't continue to serve Downtown Brooklyn. While they are at it, they should give ALL the Brooklyn express bus service to Spring Creek, making it the sole express bus depot in Brooklyn since Ulmer Park will probably get the B5 and others. Take the load off of them.