Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Would making the B39 a rush route to Union Square be useful for riders? Going via Avenue A/Essex, stopping at Essex/Delancey, 14th St/Avenue A, to Union Square (on the M14 turn around) and turning back the same way down, stopping at Avenue A/14 St, then, Rivington St (before the bridge).

I've been interested in growing the B39s are in both Brooklyn and Manhattan for a while. I think Spring Street would be hard to turn around but if we do Union Square, we can get the B39 in and out of Manhattan quickly by making it a Rush Route in Manhattan. the B53 and the B39 could both potentially run down Broadway, I don't think there's a lot of routes that can connect to that part of Queens and that part of Brookyln as easily so I can see worth in doing that.

This is what scares me. Have you ever even used the B39 to understand the ridership patterns? Nothing wrong with people commenting, but throwing out things and seeing what sticks is not exactly ideal either.

[Cait Sith]

41 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That's how it's set up. All of the comments are their own individual comments (but you can place a pin right next to someone else's comment and then state your own comment...which can be a response to that comment, or an entirely separate comment). I've put down next to a few that I agree with their comment, and a couple that I disagree.

I saw what they were mentioning where the guy was going around commenting all over the map (which is his right, though most of his ideas weren't that great, but a few did have something that could open a reasonable discussion about service in certain corridors), but people were going off unnecessarily strong on him.

He may have had the right to comment all over the map, but most of his ideas were so bad that the response to that dude was definitely necessary….especially since he was clearly commenting about routes and neighborhoods he knew nothing about. It was so annoying seeing his name plastered all over the map. He needed to stfu.

 

31 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Would making the B39 a rush route to Union Square be useful for riders? Going via Avenue A/Essex, stopping at Essex/Delancey, 14th St/Avenue A, to Union Square (on the M14 turn around) and turning back the same way down, stopping at Avenue A/14 St, then, Rivington St (before the bridge).

I've been interested in growing the B39s are in both Brooklyn and Manhattan for a while. I think Spring Street would be hard to turn around but if we do Union Square, we can get the B39 in and out of Manhattan quickly by making it a Rush Route in Manhattan. the B53 and the B39 could both potentially run down Broadway, I don't think there's a lot of routes that can connect to that part of Queens and that part of Brookyln as easily so I can see worth in doing that.

No.

The B39 in its simplest explanation, is an ADA alternative to the . Nothing more, nothing less. Doesn’t need to be anything more than that.

[Lawrence St]

I don't think the B39 should continue operating TBH. It's pointless, the amount of money they spend to run it they could instead put in to build elevators at Marcy & Essex St. That is the entire point of the route in the first place right?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

23 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

He may have had the right to comment all over the map, but most of his ideas were so bad that the response to that dude was definitely necessary….especially since he was clearly commenting about routes and neighborhoods he knew nothing about. It was so annoying seeing his name plastered all over the map. He needed to stfu.

 

No.

The B39 in its simplest explanation, is an ADA alternative to the . Nothing more, nothing less. Doesn’t need to be anything more than that.

I wonder if it's the qjtransitmaster guy. Years ago, he showed up a Townhall Meeting that myself and @BrooklynBus attended where we discussed pushing to restore the B4 and keeping the BM3 and he had nothing random ideas that made no sense and were based on his own "fantasy".  People were pissed then because as I said, these are the bus lines they depend on and take every day. It's almost as if he was making a mockery of the service they depend on. It was very disrespectful.  Myself, my comments are always about lines I have personally used over the years and know in terms of ridership patterns, etc. as an actual commuter.

8 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I don't think the B39 should continue operating TBH. It's pointless, the amount of money they spend to run it they could instead put in to build elevators at Marcy & Essex St. That is the entire point of the route in the first place right?

ADA accessibility is important, but from an operating standpoint, the line performs well, is short and is not very expensive to run. It was brought back because the riders that depend on it kept asking for it to return. It's one of the few times that the  listened and did the right thing.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[trainfan22]

46 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I don't think the B39 should continue operating TBH. It's pointless, the amount of money they spend to run it they could instead put in to build elevators at Marcy & Essex St. That is the entire point of the route in the first place right?

It would be very difficult to put an elevator on the Brooklyn bound platform at Essex as the platform is very narrow. Marcy already has elevators on both platforms IIRC.

 

 

Doesn't the B39 only use one bus? It's not exactly breaking the bank to run I'd imagine.

[Ultimategamer12c]

1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:

It would be very difficult to put an elevator on the Brooklyn bound platform at Essex as the platform is very narrow. Marcy already has elevators on both platforms IIRC.

 

 

Doesn't the B39 only use one bus? It's not exactly breaking the bank to run I'd imagine.

On any given day the B39 uses 1-2 buses I have seen it used 3 as well but it was just random at the time lol.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Ultimategamer12c

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

Did anyone check out the remix maps before they removed the comments from being visible? Some of the comments left on there were not what I was expecting, others were just.....yikes. Here's some of the ones I remember offhand.

One person wanted the B39 to go all the way to Broadway Junction from Spring Street Station, with another person wanting the B53 to only run from Sunnyside to the Bridge Plaza, having the B39 cover the rest of the way to Broadway Junction.
Another person complained about having to walk 2 blocks to walk to the train from Grand/Union from the Q54 and Q59.

The B62 saw A LOT of opposition from Greenpoint riders, a lot of people don't like the line being removed off of Manhattan Avenue.

The B55 had gotten quite a lot of praise from people.

B71 comments were loud and proud.

Quite a bit of opposition with the swapping of the B48 and B69 northern ends.

A few people proposed having the B1 and B16 swap western ends, having the B1 run straight along 86th Street instead of terminating by the train station, letting the B16 do that instead. A few people also said that the B16 should've ended at Remsen Avenue.

Two people wanted an express bus from Red Hook to Manhattan.

A LOT of complaints from the Downtown express bus riders concerning the loop. Folks are saying that the removal of the loop makes it harder to connect to other subway lines(which isn't exactly true since you got the 1, 4, 5, R & W within a short walking distance from West Street, I still think the first stop in Manhattan should've been further up either at Greenwich or Broadway). Some folks wanted Whitehall as a stop instead of Broad for the purpose of subway connections.

News to me that they've now resorted to hiding the comments (apparently due to stupid ass bickering, judging by the replies in this thread).... When did this happen?

Around last week sometime is the last time I checked the remix map & the comments within it.... To be quite honest/blunt, while I did read the entire comment section (again, up until around last week sometime), I didn't bother remembering any of them & generally just wrote them off as commenting casuals (which is what it's for, sure.... but I'm not particularly interested in those type of comments; they come off as blasé)....

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That's how it's set up. All of the comments are their own individual comments (but you can place a pin right next to someone else's comment and then state your own comment...which can be a response to that comment, or an entirely separate comment). I've put down next to a few that I agree with their comment, and a couple that I disagree.

I saw what they were mentioning where the guy was going around commenting all over the map (which is his right, though most of his ideas weren't that great, but a few did have something that could open a reasonable discussion about service in certain corridors), but people were going off unnecessarily strong on him.

The whole charade is no different than that AndyfromNYC dude, on multiple occasions, using those MTA committee meetings as a platform to throw shots at PinepowerLI.... Anyway, I'm glad I didn't see any of that nonsense that happened in that comment section, because as I'm reading yours & CaitSith's replies on here on the manner, it sounds offputting as shit.... If I was an inquisitive outsider looking at that, I wouldn't take the fact that this is an actual redesign by an actual transit provider seriously...

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

I'm not sure if that Queens part is even true because I've never seen any comments posted on both Queens remix maps, both old and new.

Yeah, I don't recall a period (brief or otherwise) where comments on either draft of the remix maps for Queens where comments were even shown, either... I don't see the need to embellish that general point he was making, but whatever....

46 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Would making the B39 a rush route to Union Square be useful for riders? Going via Avenue A/Essex, stopping at Essex/Delancey, 14th St/Avenue A, to Union Square (on the M14 turn around) and turning back the same way down, stopping at Avenue A/14 St, then, Rivington St (before the bridge).

I've been interested in growing the B39s are in both Brooklyn and Manhattan for a while. I think Spring Street would be hard to turn around but if we do Union Square, we can get the B39 in and out of Manhattan quickly by making it a Rush Route in Manhattan. the B53 and the B39 could both potentially run down Broadway, I don't think there's a lot of routes that can connect to that part of Queens and that part of Brookyln as easily so I can see worth in doing that.

I'm not defending Spring st. as a terminal - but at the same time, it doesn't make sense that buses would get in/out of Manhattan quickly during the rush, by having it serve more of Manhattan (as you inquire, in mentioning Union Sq)...The ambition you express in this post here, flat out ignores bridge traffic... You can forget about anything getting in/out of Manhattan quickly during the rush.... Hell, even the MTA rescinded having express buses in the final draft of the Queens redesign utilizing the Williamsburg Bridge...

Having a route run from Broadway Junction (or whatever you mean by "run down Broadway")  to Union Sq. isn't all too practical.... You say you've been interested in growing the route, but what exactly is your target riderbase?

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I wonder if it's the qjtransitmaster guy. Years ago, he showed up a Townhall Meeting that myself and @BrooklynBus attended where we discussed pushing to restore the B4 and keeping the BM3 and he had nothing random ideas that made no sense and were based on his own "fantasy".  People were pissed then because as I said, these are the bus lines they depend on and take every day. It's almost as if he was making a mockery of the service they depend on. It was very disrespectful.  Myself, my comments are always about lines I have personally used over the years and know in terms of ridership patterns, etc.

...and those are the type of people characters whose commentaries the MTA gives more consideration to - Which is a reason I downright refuse to waste energy going to & participating in any of those meetings.... You hit them with facts that goes against their narrative, you get blown off.... You bow down & kiss the ring & have them smack you on the ass by spewing anything that can be construed as being in lock-step with their ultimate goal, they're allllll ears..... I mean, the people that genuinely care & have real concerns of their commute changing for the worse, undermined by foamers - and it be the same perennial characters year in & year out too... They know who these clowns are.... It's absolutely a damn mockery & like I mentioned in my reply to Checkmate above, it isn't the only example of the type of BS that the MTA allows on their platform either....

[Cait Sith]

18 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

News to me that they've now resorted to hiding the comments (apparently due to stupid ass bickering, judging by the replies in this thread).... When did this happen?

Yeah, I don't recall a period (brief or otherwise) where comments on either draft of the remix maps for Queens where comments were even shown, either... I don't see the need to embellish that general point he was making, but whatever...

 

I'm not sure when. I was checking the map last night to see if there were any new comments, and the whole thing was wiped out.

And that's what I thought.....I knew there were no comments publicly posted on the Queens maps, I'd check it every so often just to look at it and there were never any comments on them. What he said kinda came off as conspiracy theorist to me...

Edited December 22, 2022 by Cait Sith

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

...and those are the type of people characters whose commentaries the MTA gives more consideration to - Which is a reason I downright refuse to waste energy going to & participating in any of those meetings.... You hit them with facts that goes against their narrative, you get blown off.... You bow down & kiss the ring & have them smack you on the ass by spewing anything that can be construed as being in lock-step with their ultimate goal, they're allllll ears..... I mean, the people that genuinely care & have real concerns of their commute changing for the worse, undermined by foamers - and it be the same perennial characters year in & year out too... They know who these clowns are.... It's absolutely a damn mockery & like I mentioned in my reply to Checkmate above, it isn't the only example of the type of BS that the MTA allows on their platform either....

I know the person that has been involved in the latest redesigns too. If they receive any criticism, they become quite pissed off because in their mind, they've worked very hard to improve these draft plans (and I would agree that the latest ones have been better at least in terms of SOME of the route proposals (not the service cuts to the spans and frequency though)), but let's be clear here. They do hire what are essentially consultants to do some of these redesigns and then they move on. The chick that I met with on the Bronx Redesign initially has moved on to another consulting firm. I think it makes more sense to use people from within that are a bit more familiar with the routes (too many cooks in the kitchen and it becomes a mess).

For anyone wondering though, I was told back then that they aimed to make 30% of the borough's routes different and keep 70% as is, but that 30% is huge, since it seems that it usually means service cuts and/or route changes that the actual commuters don't like/want.

When she came up to my neighborhood for a Townhall Meeting, people were pissed. She clearly felt that she was qualified to come into communities and dictate changes that absolutely would've been a disaster and commuters were having none of it. Looked like they all wanted to crawl under a table. I just laughed, as I had warned them that people would be pissed. Some of these changes would absolutely force people either into longer commutes, or they will be forced to spend more money or drive. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I know the person that has been involved in the latest redesigns too. If they receive any criticism, they become quite pissed off because in their mind, they've worked very hard to improve these draft plans (and I would agree that the latest ones have been better at least in terms of SOME of the route proposals (not the service cuts to the spans and frequency though)), but let's be clear here. They do hire what are essentially consultants to do some of these redesigns and then they move on. The chick that I met with on the Bronx Redesign initially has moved on to another consulting firm. I think it makes more sense to use people from within that are a bit more familiar with the routes (too many cooks in the kitchen and it becomes a mess).

For anyone wondering though, I was told back then that they aimed to make 30% of the borough's routes different and keep 70% as is, but that 30% is huge, since it seems that it usually means service cuts and/or route changes that the actual commuters don't like/want.

When she came up to my neighborhood for a Townhall Meeting, people were pissed. She clearly felt that she was qualified to come into communities and dictate changes that absolutely would've been a disaster and commuters were having none of it. Looked like they all wanted to crawl under a table. I just laughed, as I had warned them that people would be pissed. Some of these changes would absolutely force people either into longer commutes, or they will be forced to spend more money or drive. 

Exactly why they don’t want to have in person meetings, but we can’t let them get away with this virtual shit where you can’t tell them how bad their plan is. 

[N6 Limited]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I know the person that has been involved in the latest redesigns too. If they receive any criticism, they become quite pissed off because in their mind, they've worked very hard to improve these draft plans (and I would agree that the latest ones have been better at least in terms of SOME of the route proposals (not the service cuts to the spans and frequency though)), but let's be clear here. They do hire what are essentially consultants to do some of these redesigns and then they move on. The chick that I met with on the Bronx Redesign initially has moved on to another consulting firm. I think it makes more sense to use people from within that are a bit more familiar with the routes (too many cooks in the kitchen and it becomes a mess).

For anyone wondering though, I was told back then that they aimed to make 30% of the borough's routes different and keep 70% as is, but that 30% is huge, since it seems that it usually means service cuts and/or route changes that the actual commuters don't like/want.

When she came up to my neighborhood for a Townhall Meeting, people were pissed. She clearly felt that she was qualified to come into communities and dictate changes that absolutely would've been a disaster and commuters were having none of it. Looked like they all wanted to crawl under a table. I just laughed, as I had warned them that people would be pissed. Some of these changes would absolutely force people either into longer commutes, or they will be forced to spend more money or drive. 

 

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Exactly why they don’t want to have in person meetings, but we can’t let them get away with this virtual shit where you can’t tell them how bad their plan is. 

Wouldn’t it make sense for them to ride the routes, observe ridership patterns and ask B/O and riders questions?

[BrooklynBus]

19 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

 

Wouldn’t it make sense for them to ride the routes, observe ridership patterns and ask B/O and riders questions?

That would make too much sense. When I headed the Brooklyn bus redesign in 1981 and 1982 which was called the Brooklyn Transit Sufficiency Study, we asked the bus drivers for their comments we received several hundred responses. While we couldn’t really use 98 percent of the responses because they were really dispatching or operational issues which we had no control over, rather than route issues which was what we were concentrating on, we did receive several lengthy responses from several bus operators that were useful.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

That would make too much sense. When I headed the Brooklyn bus redesign in 1981 and 1982 which was called the Brooklyn Transit Sufficiency Study, we asked the bus drivers for their comments we received several hundred responses. While we couldn’t really use 98 percent of the responses because they were really dispatching or operational issues which we had no control over, rather than route issues which was what we were concentrating on, we did receive several lengthy responses from several bus operators that were useful.

 

I heard from some Queens drivers that ATU-1056 attended some of the Queens Redesign workshops and got a separate presentation of the full plan. If that's true, then maybe something similar is planned with the Brooklyn Redesign.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

 

Wouldn’t it make sense for them to ride the routes, observe ridership patterns and ask B/O and riders questions?

Well they did have me come in for a small meeting for the Bronx Redesign Express Bus Plan. It was cute because we had a very large meeting a few months prior to that for all of the express lines, but that was more service related and about general questions we had with service. They had the then two Senior Planners there from NYCT and MTA Bus respectively and folks from the Customer Service Team with a book with the express lines and the plans. We went over each line and I explained the issues with some of their proposals, why it wouldn't work, specifically noting feedback I had as a commuter and more importantly, what other commuters had concerns about, and also asked questions about parts of the proposals that depended on DOT approval, which they admitted they hadn't even spoken with DOT about. lol This was a few days before there was an emergency Town hall Meeting in my neighborhood, where I told them that people would be pissed. When they arrived, they looked like they wanted to crawl under a table. LOL Hundreds of people there angry.

As for B/Os, they sadly don't ask them enough. Now they obviously gather demographic information and such, which is important, and I believe for the Queens and Brooklyn Redesign, they seem to have a commuter advocate that I work with at the  that is more hands-on with these proposals and they also attend the workshop sessions and other feedback meetings to try to listen and incorporate changes where possible, but that doesn't mean that these plans aren't laser-focused on cutting service, because they are. 

[BrooklynBus]

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well they did have me come in for a small meeting for the Bronx Redesign Express Bus Plan. It was cute because we had a very large meeting a few months prior to that for all of the express lines, but that was more service related and about general questions we had with service. They had the then two Senior Planners there from NYCT and MTA Bus respectively and folks from the Customer Service Team with a book with the express lines and the plans. We went over each line and I explained the issues with some of their proposals, why it wouldn't work, specifically noting feedback I had as a commuter and more importantly, what other commuters had concerns about, and also asked questions about parts of the proposals that depended on DOT approval, which they admitted they hadn't even spoken with DOT about. lol This was a few days before there was an emergency Town hall Meeting in my neighborhood, where I told them that people would be pissed. When they arrived, they looked like they wanted to crawl under a table. LOL Hundreds of people there angry.

As for B/Os, they sadly don't ask them enough. Now they obviously gather demographic information and such, which is important, and I believe for the Queens and Brooklyn Redesign, they seem to have a commuter advocate that I work with at the  that is more hands-on with these proposals and they also attend the workshop sessions and other feedback meetings to try to listen and incorporate changes where possible, but that doesn't mean that these plans aren't laser-focused on cutting service, because they are. 

So why are they now refusing to have in-person meetings for Brooklyn and Queens?

What good is gathering demographic information if you are going to ignore what you find? The Brooklyn Existing Conditions Report stated Brooklyn is growing demographically as well with jobs. Downtown Brooklyn is the fastest growing area. So instead of increasing service boroughwide, they are making service cuts, including Downtown Brooklyn, the fastest growing area. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

So why are they now refusing to have in-person meetings for Brooklyn and Queens?

What good is gathering demographic information if you are going to ignore what you find? The Brooklyn Existing Conditions Report stated Brooklyn is growing demographically as well with jobs. Downtown Brooklyn is the fastest growing area. So instead of increasing service boroughwide, they are making service cuts, including Downtown Brooklyn, the fastest growing area. 

I agree with you re: demographic information. Their report also claims that they are making more connections in Brooklyn, which is total BS, both on the local side and express side. I've already shared why I'm against the B49 change and the B2 I used often when I lived in Midwood. People in Marine Park especially are not happy with having the B100 be the lone bus. Those are just a few examples in Southern Brooklyn that don't make sense, but I could point to many more. The cuts to the spans and frequency on a number of lines is outrageous as well.

It's going to be important for Brooklyn elected officials to really pressure the  to have more meetings and agree to allocate funding to this re-design plan, something they agreed to eventually do in The Bronx after immense pressure. Queens has had similar requests. 

[BrooklynBus]

I have an article coming out tomorrow on the Brooklyn Redesign summarizing my problems with it so stay tuned.

[BrooklynBus]

It was delayed which is beyond my control.

[checkmatechamp13]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:25 AM, BrooklynBus said:

Exactly why they don’t want to have in person meetings, but we can’t let them get away with this virtual shit where you can’t tell them how bad their plan is. 

I don't have a problem with virtual meetings. If anything it makes it more accessible, since you can do it from the comfort of your own home. And there was decent dialogue at these meetings (there was back and forth on the merits of running the Q101 to Brooklyn vs Manhattan, etc)

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I don't have a problem with virtual meetings. If anything it makes it more accessible, since you can do it from the comfort of your own home. And there was decent dialogue at these meetings (there was back and forth on the merits of running the Q101 to Brooklyn vs Manhattan, etc)

You mean they actually answered questions and didn’t just ask you to submit them on remax or as a comment? The ones I attended, all they did was tell you what you could find out on line and didn’t answer any questions. Virtual is okay as an option but not as a substitute for on line. In virtual they don’t even have to recognize you if they don’t want to. In person, they can’t really ignore you. 

[checkmatechamp13]

3 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

You mean they actually answered questions and didn’t just ask you to submit them on remax or as a comment? The ones I attended, all they did was tell you what you could find out on line and didn’t answer any questions. Virtual is okay as an option but not as a substitute for on line. In virtual they don’t even have to recognize you if they don’t want to. In person, they can’t really ignore you. 

Yes, they actually engaged meaningfully at the virtual meetings. I agree they should also have some in-person events, but if the majority are online, I think that's perfectly fine.

[BrooklynBus]

10 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Yes, they actually engaged meaningfully at the virtual meetings. I agree they should also have some in-person events, but if the majority are online, I think that's perfectly fine.

They are all on-line. They are calling asking people questions and distributing flyers at subway stations “in-person.” Anything not to directly meet with the public. Remember how they used to make live presentations before community boards which they did before introducing new SBS routes? This is much more important and affects much more riders, yet no in-person meetings. Elected officials must make sure they happen or they should be voted out, 

[Lawrence St]

Why are they still moving ahead with redesigning the express buses even though they got so much opposition from the Bronx portion? 

[Cait Sith]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Why are they still moving ahead with redesigning the express buses even though they got so much opposition from the Bronx portion? 

Because The Bronx was a whole different case. That should've been easy to figure out. The folks in Co-Op City and Riverdale were the loudest.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

Because The Bronx was a whole different case. That should've been easy to figure out. The folks in Co-Op City and Riverdale were the loudest.

That is true, but people all over the Bronx were pretty vocal. Case in point, there was a petition sent around for the BxM4 which many people signed to keep that route, particularly along the Grand Concourse.