Bee Line Fleet Replacement

[Jova42R]

As many of BeeLine's buses are nearing the end of their lives, I thought that it would be a good idea to compile a list of (what I think) are the best replacements for these buses.

The current fleet is (soon to be retired in red, not retiring soon in blue😞

• 2004 OBI Orion V 05.505
• 2006 OBI Orion VII 07.501 OG HEV
• 2009 NABI 40-LFW HEV
• 2018-19 New Flyer XDE60
• 2003 Neoplan AN460
• 2005-6 Orion V 05.501 Transit
• 2008 Orion V 05.501 Suburban

Most of the fleet is soon to be retiring. Hence, here are the replacements (replacements in green):

• 2004 OBI Orion V 05.505
  • New Flyer XDE35 (1st choice)
  • Alexander Dennis Enviro200H 33 ft (2nd choice)
  • Gillig BRT HEV 35 ft (3rd choice)
• 2006 OBI Orion VII 07.501 OG HEV
  • New Flyer XDE40 (1st choice)
  • Nova Bus LFS TL40102A HEV or Nova Bus LFX TL40102A HEV (2nd choice)
  • Gillig BRT HEV 40 ft (3rd choice)
• 2009 NABI 40-LFW HEV
  • New Flyer XDE40 (1st choice)
  • Nova Bus LFS TL40102A HEV or Nova Bus LFX TL40102A HEV (2nd choice)
  • Gillig BRT HEV 40 ft (3rd choice)
• 2003 Neoplan AN460
  • 577 will be replaced by 322, an XDE60
• 2005-6 Orion V 05.501 Transit
  • New Flyer XDE40 (1st choice)
  • Nova Bus LFS TL40102A HEV or Nova Bus LFX TL40102A HEV (2nd choice)
  • Gillig BRT HEV 40 ft (3rd choice)
• 2008 Orion V 05.501 Suburban
  • MCI D4500CTH (1st choice)
  • Nova Bus LFS TL40102A HEV Suburban (2nd choice)

[Cait Sith]

3 hours ago, Jova42R said:

As many of BeeLine's buses are nearing the end of their lives, I thought that it would be a good idea to compile a list of (what I think) are the best replacements for these buses.

The current fleet is (soon to be retired in red, not retiring soon in blue😞

• 2004 OBI Orion V 05.505
• 2006 OBI Orion VII 07.501 OG HEV
• 2009 NABI 40-LFW HEV
• 2018-19 New Flyer XDE60
• 2003 Neoplan AN460
• 2005-6 Orion V 05.501 Transit
• 2008 Orion V 05.501 Suburban

Most of the fleet is soon to be retiring. Hence, here are the replacements (replacements in green😞

• 2004 OBI Orion V 05.505
  • New Flyer XDE35 (1st choice)
  • Alexander Dennis Enviro200H 33 ft (2nd choice)
  • Gillig BRT HEV 35 ft (3rd choice)
• 2006 OBI Orion VII 07.501 OG HEV
  • New Flyer XDE40 (1st choice)
  • Nova Bus LFS TL40102A HEV or Nova Bus LFX TL40102A HEV (2nd choice)
  • Gillig BRT HEV 40 ft (3rd choice)
• 2009 NABI 40-LFW HEV
  • New Flyer XDE40 (1st choice)
  • Nova Bus LFS TL40102A HEV or Nova Bus LFX TL40102A HEV (2nd choice)
  • Gillig BRT HEV 40 ft (3rd choice)
• 2003 Neoplan AN460
  • 577 will be replaced by 322, an XDE60
• 2005-6 Orion V 05.501 Transit
  • New Flyer XDE40 (1st choice)
  • Nova Bus LFS TL40102A HEV or Nova Bus LFX TL40102A HEV (2nd choice)
  • Gillig BRT HEV 40 ft (3rd choice)
• 2008 Orion V 05.501 Suburban
  • MCI D4500CTH (1st choice)
  • Nova Bus LFS TL40102A HEV Suburban (2nd choice)

Lord.....

1. They won't get MCIs. The BxM4C and their other Express Routes from White Plains don't even get the ridership that makes them need MCIs.
2. They won't get Enviro200Hs.
3. They won't get Novas.
4. They're getting New Flyers. There's a chance that they'd get the 29ft Gillig to replace the 30ft Orions, but I see XDE35s in their future for parts and fleet uniformity.

[B35 via Church]

29 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

They won't get MCIs. The BxM4C and their other Express Routes from White Plains don't even get the ridership that makes them need MCIs.

The fact that they even run those O5 suburbans on routes like the BL-34, 38, and 39 are enough.... All those little commuter shuttles (like the BL-64, 65, 70, and 71) should be running those baby buses (the 32 footers)....

AFAIC, there should be no direct/specific fleet replacement for the O5 suburbans; the BxMC4 shouldn't be a thing anyway.... If they can use the local fleet for the BL-3, they can use 'em for the BL-77...

[Mtatransit]

Bee Lines keep their buses in very pristine conditions. Those Orions are old, but they still am well maintained and very clean

[Jova42R]

20 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

1. They won't get MCIs. The BxM4C and their other Express Routes from White Plains don't even get the ridership that makes them need MCIs.

even the 4C? I thought that it did!

17 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The fact that they even run those O5 suburbans on routes like the BL-34, 38, and 39 are enough.... All those little commuter shuttles (like the BL-64, 65, 70, and 71) should be running those baby buses (the 32 footers)....

Yes, the XDE35s would replace all O5s except the BXM4C.

20 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

2. They won't get Enviro200Hs.
3. They won't get Novas.

Ok, yea I thought not.

20 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

4. They're getting New Flyers. There's a chance that they'd get the 29ft Gillig to replace the 30ft Orions, but I see XDE35s in their future for parts and fleet uniformity.

So their fleet will consist of entirely XDE buses (and whatever replaces the Orion 5s)?

[Cait Sith]

1 hour ago, Jova42R said:

even the 4C? I thought that it did!

Yes, the XDE35s would replace all O5s except the BXM4C.

Ok, yea I thought not.

So their fleet will consist of entirely XDE buses (and whatever replaces the Orion 5s)?

1. If it did, they wouldn't be using Orion Vs....this is why you check out the routes before judging.
2. They're getting XDE40s to replace the 40ft O5s. They could get 29ft Gilligs only because the White Plains loop routes go through areas with tight turns, but I see XDE35s in the future.

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, Jova42R said:

even the 4C? I thought that it did!

In terms of usage, the route is struggling to stay afloat....

 

2 hours ago, Jova42R said:

Yes, the XDE35s would replace all O5s except the BXM4C.

......

20 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

AFAIC, there should be no direct/specific fleet replacement for the O5 suburbans; the BxMC4 shouldn't be a thing anyway....

In other words, I would get rid of the BxMC4.

The XDE35's would be utilized for the commuter shuttles & the XDE40's would be utilized for routes like the BL-77 (and any other route they have utilizing the O5 suburbans).....

[Jova42R]

15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The XDE35's would be utilized for the commuter shuttles & the XDE40's would be utilized for routes like the BL-77 (and any other route they have utilizing the O5 suburbans).....

The W77 is technically an express route, just like the BXM4C. so maybe run suburban buses? In terms of New Flyer, could they build a suburban XDE40? or would it be a coach bus (a D4000CL or D4000CT maybe?)

[B35 via Church]

59 minutes ago, Jova42R said:

The W77 is technically an express route, just like the BXM4C. so maybe run suburban buses? In terms of New Flyer, could they build a suburban XDE40? or would it be a coach bus (a D4000CL or D4000CT maybe?)

Sure, so is the BL-3 - and they pretty much throw everything on that route (Yes, even artics), except the 32 footers & the O5 suburbans.... I can safely say that route carries more people than the BxMC4 & the BL-77 combined....

IDK, I suppose New Flyer *could* customize a 40 foot suburban for Bee-Line, but I'm telling you, purchasing MCI's for any Bee-Line route would be a waste.

 

[trainfan22]

The BXM4C used MCIs prior to the Orion V bring used on the line.

 

I think the MN Harlem line slowly killed off the BXM4C. Metro North is fairly young (didn't start until 1983) and from what I understand, the railroads that operated the HUD/Harlem/NH lines weren't as good as Metro North is today. Plus GCT was a dump until sometime in the 80s or early 90s. 

 

I think MN improving Harlem line service made the Harlem line more attractive and over the course of time BXM4C riders jumped ship in the masses.

 

 

Also there is transit agencies out there that already operate single door suburban XD40s, so it would be no problem for New Flyer to build single door XDE40s for Bee Line.

Edited June 27, 2020 by trainfan22

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:

The BXM4C used MCIs prior to the Orion V bring used on the line.

 

I think the MN Harlem line slowly killed off the BXM4C. Metro North is fairly young (didn't start until 1983) and from what I understand, the railroads that operated the HUD/Harlem/NH lines weren't as good as Metro North is today. Plus GCT was a dump until sometime in the 80s or early 90s. 

 

I think MN improving Harlem line service made the Harlem line more attractive and over the course of time BXM4C riders jumped ship in the masses.

 

 

Also there is transit agencies out there that already operate single door suburban XD40s, so it would be no problem for New Flyer to build single door XDE40s for Bee Line.

Yeah, the old MCI 102's....

Anyway, the route instantly became unattractive to a lot of riders with the fall 2010 changes.... There was nothing all that slow about it.... The riderbases that consisted of those that took the RR vs. those that decided to take the bus, was already well established...

It actually used to attract weekend riders (when it ran on weekends) & (more) off-peak riders than it garners now.... The BxMC4 used to be my primary means to get to/from White Plains during most of the late '90's & all of the '00's.... I clearly remember the weekend ridership spike from casuals taking it to/from the casino in the late 2000's, not too long after it opened up....

Edited June 28, 2020 by B35 via Church

[R10 2952]

5 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

I think the MN Harlem line slowly killed off the BXM4C. Metro North is fairly young (didn't start until 1983) and from what I understand, the railroads that operated the HUD/Harlem/NH lines weren't as good as Metro North is today. Plus GCT was a dump until sometime in the 80s or early 90s. 

 

I think MN improving Harlem line service made the Harlem line more attractive and over the course of time BXM4C riders jumped ship in the masses.

Could be; the mid '60s thru early '80s were as bad a time for the GCT commuter lines as they were for the subways.  The trains operated by New York Central, Penn Central, and then Conrail were abysmal.  And yeah, Grand Central itself really didn't improve until after 1995.

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, the old MCI 102's....

Anyway, the route instantly became unattractive to a lot of riders with the fall 2010 changes.... There was nothing all that slow about it.... The riderbases that consisted of those that took the RR vs. those that decided to take the bus, was already well established...

It actually used to attract weekend riders (when it ran on weekends) & (more) off-peak riders than it garners now.... The BxMC4 used to be my primary means to get to/from White Plains during most of the late '90's & all of the '00's.... I clearly remember the weekend ridership spike from casuals taking it to/from the casino in the late 2000's, not too long after it opened up....

I remember the one time I took the BxM4C back in 2011, there was just me and two other people getting off at White Plains.  And this was rush-hour...

 

[Mtatransit]

10 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Could be; the mid '60s thru early '80s were as bad a time for the GCT commuter lines as they were for the subways.  The trains operated by New York Central, Penn Central, and then Conrail were abysmal.  And yeah, Grand Central itself really didn't improve until after 1995.

I remember the one time I took the BxM4C back in 2011, there was just me and two other people getting off at White Plains.  And this was rush-hour...

I rode it back in 2015, from I remember, by the time the bus got to the midway point, there was just me and one other guy. The driver simply asked us where we are getting off.

This route came a long way from 2010, when it ran on weekends, to Wall St, and the fare was the same as MTA Express bus.

The 60s and 70s were a bad time for RR service in this country in general. The mail and express just came off the trains and most commuter and LD trains were hemorrhaging cash. In fact Conrail and Amtrak was created to save some of the passenger trains left in the country

 

[B35 via Church]

13 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

I remember the one time I took the BxM4C back in 2011, there was just me and two other people getting off at White Plains.  And this was rush-hour...

** image **

I'm buggin... When I saw this post last night, I'm like why did this guy choose this for a forum sig'

Anyway, yeah, I believe it.... While I felt some type of way when they cut service to the WP Transcenter, service to Wall st. was much too much for the thing.... I mean, the BxMC4 went from this (pre 2010) to this (current service)... I understand trimming waste, but damn.... I'm honestly surprised it's lasted this long, with as few people that use the thing now.

It could've been as popular as I-Bus or the TZx regional services, but the combination of the infamous [BL-20 → ] & [poor overall advertisement (although I will admit, when Empire City Casino opened, they did advertise it - but too little, too late)] stunted it....

[Cait Sith]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm buggin... When I saw this post last night, I'm like why did this guy choose this for a forum sig'

I thought the same thing for a good minute lmaooooo

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm buggin... When I saw this post last night, I'm like why did this guy choose this for a forum sig'

Anyway, yeah, I believe it.... While I felt some type of way when they cut service to the WP Transcenter, service to Wall st. was much too much for the thing.... I mean, the BxMC4 went from this (pre 2010) to this (current service)... I understand trimming waste, but damn.... I'm honestly surprised it's lasted this long, with as few people that use the thing now.

It could've been as popular as I-Bus or the TZx regional services, but the combination of the infamous [BL-20 → ] & [poor overall advertisement (although I will admit, when Empire City Casino opened, they did advertise it - but too little, too late)] stunted it....

The times that I've taken the BxM4C, especially the peak trips, 75% of the bus is full. It's a fast alternative way then the 20 to the , but the high fare and the horrible frequency is why it never will have the same ridership as it did before.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

The times that I've taken the BxM4C, especially the peak trips, 75% of the bus is full. It's a fast alternative way then the 20 to the , but the high fare and the horrible frequency is why it never will have the same ridership as it did before.

It's already been established in this discussion that the fall 2010 changes loomed largely detrimental to the route.... In regards to how popular the route could have been IMO, I was referring to the existence of the route during the time period before those changes, not just what's left of it now.... The BL-20 to the was/is far too commonplace a commuting method/habit for riders along Central Park av & the thing over the years was not marketed all that well..... Just waiting for the day when they'll completely cut off peak service & have it as nothing more than peak direction only service.... Only a matter of when.

 

[R10 2952]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The times that I've taken the BxM4C, especially the peak trips, 75% of the bus is full. It's a fast alternative way then the 20 to the , but the high fare and the horrible frequency is why it never will have the same ridership as it did before.

That's consistent from what I used to hear from people who lived around Central Park Avenue up there, more or less.  Hence the point I made earlier about only 4 people on my bus being a mystery LOL...

@B35 via Church@Cait Sith If I ever do get around to upgrading my sig, it most def ain't gonna be one from some '80s, quasi-detective, late-night TV roadkill 😆😆

[Nova Fly Guy]

On 6/26/2020 at 3:57 PM, Cait Sith said:

Lord.....

1. They won't get MCIs. The BxM4C and their other Express Routes from White Plains don't even get the ridership that makes them need MCIs.
2. They won't get Enviro200Hs.
3. They won't get Novas.
4. They're getting New Flyers. There's a chance that they'd get the 29ft Gillig to replace the 30ft Orions, but I see XDE35s in their future for parts and fleet uniformity.

New flyer has the MiDi which is 30ft

[Cait Sith]

1 minute ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

New flyer has the MiDi which is 30ft

They stopped making those roughly 3 years ago. 

[Nova Fly Guy]

2 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

They stopped making those roughly 3 years ago. 

You are correct forgot just Alexander Still make the MiDi(Enviro200)

[RTS 5124]

On 6/26/2020 at 6:58 PM, B35 via Church said:

first off. I would like to say hello transit buddies.

 

As far as Beeline goes.  They will eventually retire the 40 foot Orion V ISMs.  This will greatly sadden a lot of bus fans just like the retirement of the Neoplans because those buses had pure great diesel sound.  But unfortunately everyone is becoming more and more conscientious about the environment.  Bus agency after bus agency is ryryingvto go all electric.

Beeline needs to purchase the Proterra model.  Proterra has made a name for them selves and they have buses all throughout the U.S and Canada.

beeline needs to focus of going green like everyone else.

they don’t need to purchase more New flyers because New Flyer has gotten enough contracts and I feel that Beeline doesn’t need anymore Xcelsiors.  Proterra needs this opportunity very badly.  I love the Catalyst and BE40 models.

They can keep the NABI hybrids.  All they have to do is give them new shock absorbers and replace the passenger seat pads.  They replace one here and one there but a lot of them are completely worn down

i love the NABIs because of the instant torque

they can definitely keep the suburban Orion’s.  They still look like new

the 30 foot baby Orion’s can go because those seats are atrocious

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

17 hours ago, RTS 5124 said:

beeline needs to focus of going green like everyone else.

they don’t need to purchase more New flyers because New Flyer has gotten enough contracts and I feel that Beeline doesn’t need anymore Xcelsiors.  Proterra needs this opportunity very badly.  I love the Catalyst and BE40 models.

They can keep the NABI hybrids.  All they have to do is give them new shock absorbers and replace the passenger seat pads.  They replace one here and one there but a lot of them are completely worn down

i love the NABIs because of the instant torque

they can definitely keep the suburban Orion’s.  They still look like new

the 30 foot baby Orion’s can go because those seats are atrocious

I prefer New Flyers over Proterras (I personally think the latter look kinda ugly), but I'll put my bias aside for one second.

It isn't Bee Line's (nor any other transit operator's) responsibility to sustain bus manufacturers. I mean it doesn't even make sense in the real world. Why would I choose to go to some establishment I don't want to go to just because it's struggling to get new customers. There could be a variety of reasons why it's struggling on that basis, including a niche market or bad business practices. Not my fault, not my burden, I'm going to whichever one I feel is the most optimal option.

Between New Flyer and Proterra, if New Flyer makes a better deal, it's much more possible that they'll get a contract to build buses for Bee Line. Also if New Flyer can build them without issue, I don't see the issue with giving it to New Flyer. Conversely, if Proterra offers a better deal, it could potentially go to them as well. I'm pretty sure there's certain factors that Bee Line has to also consider, outside of cost, and if any manufacturer can't meet certain requirements or specifications, then they might not be able to get a contract. 

Who knows, perhaps both may be selected in the future. However, since the artics are already Xcelsiors, it would make sense from a maintenance standpoint to want to go with more Xcelsiors. But then again, there's other factors which need to be considered, and we don't know for sure what will happen.

Edited October 14, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

On 10/14/2020 at 2:02 AM, RTS 5124 said:

beeline needs to focus of going green like everyone else.

they don’t need to purchase more New flyers because New Flyer has gotten enough contracts and I feel that Beeline doesn’t need anymore Xcelsiors.  Proterra needs this opportunity very badly.  I love the Catalyst and BE40 models.

They can keep the NABI hybrids.  All they have to do is give them new shock absorbers and replace the passenger seat pads.  They replace one here and one there but a lot of them are completely worn down

i love the NABIs because of the instant torque

they can definitely keep the suburban Orion’s.  They still look like new

the 30 foot baby Orion’s can go because those seats are atrocious

First off, welcome to the forums.

I'm not sure if you're new to forums in general, but you gotta be more careful when you're quoting people... This were the contents of what I said in that post you quoted:

On 6/26/2020 at 6:58 PM, B35 via Church said:

The fact that they even run those O5 suburbans on routes like the BL-34, 38, and 39 are enough.... All those little commuter shuttles (like the BL-64, 65, 70, and 71) should be running those baby buses (the 32 footers)....

AFAIC, there should be no direct/specific fleet replacement for the O5 suburbans; the BxMC4 shouldn't be a thing anyway.... If they can use the local fleet for the BL-3, they can use 'em for the BL-77...

=============================

 

14 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I prefer New Flyers over Proterras (I personally think the latter look kinda ugly), but I'll put my bias aside for one second.

It isn't Bee Line's (nor any other transit operator's) responsibility to sustain bus manufacturers. I mean it doesn't even make sense in the real world. Why would I choose to go to some establishment I don't want to go to just because it's struggling to get new customers. There could be a variety of reasons why it's struggling on that basis, including a niche market or bad business practices. Not my fault, not my burden, I'm going to whichever one I feel is the most optimal option.

Between New Flyer and Proterra, if New Flyer makes a better deal, it's much more possible that they'll get a contract to build buses for Bee Line. Also if New Flyer can build them without issue, I don't see the issue with giving it to New Flyer. Conversely, if Proterra offers a better deal, it could potentially go to them as well. I'm pretty sure there's certain factors that Bee Line has to also consider, outside of cost, and if any manufacturer can't meet certain requirements or specifications, then they might not be able to get a contract. 

Who knows, perhaps both may be selected in the future. However, since the artics are already Xcelsiors, it would make sense from a maintenance standpoint to want to go with more Xcelsiors. But then again, there's other factors which need to be considered, and we don't know for sure what will happen.

Unless you're not in bed (figuratively speaking... but literally would fit also) with any particular business/owner, common sense says that you should always support your interest for the possible/further success of your business.... Nepotism/Cronyism/Favoritism runs rampant in the business world & AFAIC, is a significant reason a lot of businesses (at their core) end up either stagnating or outright failing.....

Not to say that you should always "bet on black" (so to speak), but quite frankly, I have grown pretty sick & tired of this "underdog" worship (or otherwise automatic gravitation towards the underdog) that the realm of sports has fostered back in the early 2000's or so.... There's usually reasons (plural) why faltering or stagnant businesses are as such.... Risk taking has large benefits when you succeed, but they also have grave consequences when you fail....

For Bee Line to entertain Proterra over New Flyer for that frivolous reason AFAIC would be foolish.

Edited October 15, 2020 by B35 via Church

[R10 2952]

Exactly- anyone expecting Bee-Line to get Proterras would be like people expecting the MTA to get Gilligs.  I don't see it happening. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by R10 2952