B35 via Church Posted June 11, 2011 Share #126 Posted June 11, 2011 But all attrition is is just not replacing the drivers who retire. The existing drivers would still receive their current levels of pay, but the company just wouldn't hire as many new drivers to replace the ones that left. You keep placing emphasis on just the ones who would retire... I'm referring to ANY driver that would end up losing his job... But not being hired is better than being hired, thinking you have some job security, and then being fired a few years later because of budget reductions. Plus, this is a moot point, because if the whole point of hiring a private company is to run the same service for less money, then that would mean that there is no point in reducing the number of drivers. You goin really sit on this forum & tell me that not working is better than working... b/c when you work, you have a false sense of job security & you never know when (and for what reason) you're gonna be fired.... Are you kiddin me w/ that BS Checkmate?? You sound like a street dude right now w/ that garbage.... It isn't a moot point, for the simple fact that if I'm running a private company... Guess what champ, I don't have to take ANY of the former drivers from the company w/ which those laidoff drivers came from... Regardless of the process with which it happens, and any benefits they recieve after the fact.... (The MTA) saving money by lowering it's operating costs (by having the private op running the buses), isn't the only way they'd save money.... But the private company is supposed to be trying to keep its costs low so it can make money and still pass the savings onto the taxpayers. The point of running any buisiness is to make money, not provide jobs. In any case, the moot point that I was referring to was the fact that any reductions in staff (though layoffs or attrition) would be unnecessary, since there would already (most likely) be savings by the private company running the buses. Yes, the goal of any business is to make a profit - but that isn't the ONLY goal.... The bigger your business is, the more workers you will need to increase your chances at being profitable... One person holds one position & excels at it.... The practice a lot of companies are going about right now, is having multiple workers take on multiple positions to try to cut costs... You'll find those companies aren't doing near as well.... And that 2nd paragraph is still not quite correct.... The question is not of one being necessary.... The MTA (especially) aren't gonna keep extra drivers just sitting around.... No company is gonna keep people around when they don't have work to assign to them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted June 11, 2011 Share #127 Posted June 11, 2011 That company is already fairly large. As far as reducing the workforce goes, you have to consider that, if the county isn't providing enough subsidies, the private company will have to reduce the workforce. Sure, it is beneficial to everybody overall to have more people employed, but it isn't benefitting the company to hire more people. In any case, the original discussion that we were having is about privatizing express buses in NYC, in order to save money. In that case, as I said before, there would be no need for attrition (unless they really wanted to reduce the budget, which they would have to do even if the MTA ran the express buses) because the same number of drivers would be needed. For the love of god.... This isn't about the private company needing to reduce it's workforce... why the hell would they have to get rid of their workers if the MTA's seeking the private company's resources.... again, the private company doesn't have to take any MTA drivers.... You want MY services, I use MY staff.... ..and you brought up attrition, which had nothin to do w/ anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted June 11, 2011 Share #128 Posted June 11, 2011 The MTA does have competition out east, with Hampton Jitney. Despite being more expensive HJ is kicking the MTA's ass, especially on the north fork. The MTA hasn't done a single thing to woo people back to the train. Perhaps HJ could add more service if it got the subsidy money currently going to the MTA? There was an idea to form a Peconic Bay Transportation Authority to run the Greenport line and I really wish that would be revisited. If those people want to endure a long(er) bus ride over the LIRR into Manhattan, that's on those riders (north/south fork).... They have that choice... I wouldn't exactly call that competition... Hampton Jitney is a blip on the radar to the MTA... I would be shocked if the MTA took over Suffolk Transit, especially with the MTA leaving Nassau. Kind of pointless!I doubt Suffolk would ever allow the MTA to takeover, from what I've been told there is great resistance, even among the riders. It is possible that a new transit authority be formed to run buses in Nassau and Suffolk (LITA, NSTA). Why would the MTA want Suffolk's routes which have much lower ridership than Nassau's, some of which actually make money. Have the MTA take over SCT's routes, and provide full weekend service... have them scheduled to meet up w/ trains (wherever possible)... have them run later in the day... they could attempt to boost that lower ridership.... But despite what I just mentioned, I still think the MTA doesn't need to venture out to Suffolk to run it's routes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortline Bus Posted June 11, 2011 Share #129 Posted June 11, 2011 Not at all suprised. D'amato is playing a huge role in this, lets not forget MTA board member Nancy Shevell has contributed large amounts of money to D'amato as well.Mangano claims he will be able to keep the current service levels and fares till the end of 2012, but the math doesn't add up. And there's many ethics issues, too. And if Metrocard isn't accepted it will hurt ridership levels. In order to suceed it must follow the example of Westchester's Bee-Line, but Westchester pays good money for its bus system. The County Legislature and NIFA should not rubber stamp this contract, especially when the details are still not known. Great point Pine Power. I am on the 'fence' on this issue but Mangano could have at least hired an 'indepedent committee' to make this decision & thus avoid certain charges of conflict of interests in the bidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak7 Posted June 11, 2011 Share #130 Posted June 11, 2011 If those people want to endure a long(er) bus ride over the LIRR into Manhattan, that's on those riders (north/south fork).... They have that choice... I wouldn't exactly call that competition... Remember: when it comes to public transportation over long distances, an increase in frequency garners more passengers over a decrease in travel time, unless the frequency is already pretty good or the travel time is absolutely horrendous. LIRR's Greenport Branch doesn't exceed 45 east of KO, and because it only runs "milk run" service, most people take the Jitney. However, on the Hamptons/Montauk, with more frequent 60 MPH service, I think the railroad and the bus have pretty good competition. The reason SCT has low ridership is terrible frequency, too many mid-route diversions, and as you said, lack of coordination with the LIRR. Many exurban/rural bus systems like mid-route diversions, but because the through customer very easily realizes that they're going in to the mall only to go back out, the perception of time lost is much greater than actual time lost. Better-than-hourly headways are not really sustainable on many SCT routes due to ridership patterns. Sunday service and weekday evening (up till 9) service is really needed, however. The hub-and-spoke idea with rail stations, malls, and employment centers is not going to work if there is no coordination to the trains or even between routes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted June 11, 2011 Share #131 Posted June 11, 2011 You keep placing emphasis on just the ones who would retire... I'm referring to ANY driver that would end up losing his job... You goin really sit on this forum & tell me that not working is better than working... b/c when you work, you have a false sense of job security & you never know when (and for what reason) you're gonna be fired.... Are you kiddin me w/ that BS Checkmate?? You sound like a street dude right now w/ that garbage.... It isn't a moot point, for the simple fact that if I'm running a private company... Guess what champ, I don't have to take ANY of the former drivers from the company w/ which those laidoff drivers came from... Regardless of the process with which it happens, and any benefits they recieve after the fact.... (The MTA) saving money by lowering it's operating costs (by having the private op running the buses), isn't the only way they'd save money.... Yes, the goal of any business is to make a profit - but that isn't the ONLY goal.... The bigger your business is, the more workers you will need to increase your chances at being profitable... One person holds one position & excels at it.... The practice a lot of companies are going about right now, is having multiple workers take on multiple positions to try to cut costs... You'll find those companies aren't doing near as well.... And that 2nd paragraph is still not quite correct.... The question is not of one being necessary.... The MTA (especially) aren't gonna keep extra drivers just sitting around.... No company is gonna keep people around when they don't have work to assign to them.... But what if the MTA pays them extra to use former MTA workers, wouldn't they still be saving money while keeping the drivers employed? For the love of god.... This isn't about the private company needing to reduce it's workforce... why the hell would they have to get rid of their workers if the MTA's seeking the private company's resources.... again, the private company doesn't have to take any MTA drivers.... You want MY services, I use MY staff.... ..and you brought up attrition, which had nothin to do w/ anything.... I brought up attrition because it is related to reducing the workforce. Here is a definition: A gradual, natural reduction in membership or personnel, as through retirement, resignation, or death. If those people want to endure a long(er) bus ride over the LIRR into Manhattan, that's on those riders (north/south fork).... They have that choice... I wouldn't exactly call that competition... Hampton Jitney is a blip on the radar to the MTA... Have the MTA take over SCT's routes, and provide full weekend service... have them scheduled to meet up w/ trains (wherever possible)... have them run later in the day... they could attempt to boost that lower ridership.... But despite what I just mentioned, I still think the MTA doesn't need to venture out to Suffolk to run it's routes.... Couldn't SCT try doing that themselves, though (later service, weekend service, and better coordination with trains)? Remember: when it comes to public transportation over long distances, an increase in frequency garners more passengers over a decrease in travel time, unless the frequency is already pretty good or the travel time is absolutely horrendous. LIRR's Greenport Branch doesn't exceed 45 east of KO, and because it only runs "milk run" service, most people take the Jitney. However, on the Hamptons/Montauk, with more frequent 60 MPH service, I think the railroad and the bus have pretty good competition. The reason SCT has low ridership is terrible frequency, too many mid-route diversions, and as you said, lack of coordination with the LIRR. Many exurban/rural bus systems like mid-route diversions, but because the through customer very easily realizes that they're going in to the mall only to go back out, the perception of time lost is much greater than actual time lost. Better-than-hourly headways are not really sustainable on many SCT routes due to ridership patterns. Sunday service and weekday evening (up till 9) service is really needed, however. The hub-and-spoke idea with rail stations, malls, and employment centers is not going to work if there is no coordination to the trains or even between routes. You're right that all of those diversions probably drives some riders away. There are some routes that are literally nothing but diversions, such as the 3C and 8A. It's amazing how long some of these diversions are (milage-wise) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted June 11, 2011 Share #132 Posted June 11, 2011 Remember: when it comes to public transportation over long distances, an increase in frequency garners more passengers over a decrease in travel time, unless the frequency is already pretty good or the travel time is absolutely horrendous. LIRR's Greenport Branch doesn't exceed 45 east of KO, and because it only runs "milk run" service, most people take the Jitney. However, on the Hamptons/Montauk, with more frequent 60 MPH service, I think the railroad and the bus have pretty good competition. The reason SCT has low ridership is terrible frequency, too many mid-route diversions, and as you said, lack of coordination with the LIRR. Many exurban/rural bus systems like mid-route diversions, but because the through customer very easily realizes that they're going in to the mall only to go back out, the perception of time lost is much greater than actual time lost. Better-than-hourly headways are not really sustainable on many SCT routes due to ridership patterns. Sunday service and weekday evening (up till 9) service is really needed, however. The hub-and-spoke idea with rail stations, malls, and employment centers is not going to work if there is no coordination to the trains or even between routes. You do raise a point in that 1st paragraph, but iono, I still don't really see HJ as competition to the MTA... I mean, sure, the MTA could do more to try to facilitate those riders that do take the bus... But I really do think the riders that opt to take HJ are simply more comfortable with the bus, b/c (how can I say) it gives them a more personalized experience/commute... Not sure if I'm conveying that right; hope you get what I'm tryna say there.... Even if you speed up the trains east of KO (Ronkonkoma, for those that are like huhh ??) & drastically increase service to the Hamptons (which is nothin short of an embarrassment), you may get a good chunk of people ridding themselves of having to take the bus... but I don't think it would be a considerable amount of folk to where it would make HJ panic.... As for Suffolk's buses, although it works out there, that's the one thing that always annoyed me w/ SCT... the fact that they use malls as bus hubs, and county officees as major transfer points.... The mid route diversions is another annoyance.... As with most suburban routes (IMO anyway), connectivity mid-route, flat out sucks... that's why I try to catch a route at a terminal whenever possible.... The fact that SCT's have a tendency to link up to RR stations the same exact time as the train's about to leave (that's happened to me at least a handful of times w/ the S57 @ KO, comin back from Smith haven... where I had to run onto a train, pay the penalty for not having a ticket b/c there was no time to go to a TVM).... or pulling up to a RR station and seeing the back of a train going 3 mph.... almost like it's teasing you... ha ha sucker.... Staten Islanders know that situation with it's buses & the ferry all too well... same isht in Suffolk with the RR..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted June 11, 2011 Share #133 Posted June 11, 2011 But what if the MTA pays them extra to use former MTA workers, wouldn't they still be saving money while keeping the drivers employed? I brought up attrition because it is related to reducing the workforce. Here is a definition: A gradual, natural reduction in membership or personnel, as through retirement, resignation, or death. Couldn't SCT try doing that themselves, though (later service, weekend service, and better coordination with trains)? 1) That's not up to the MTA to make that decision.... But for discussion's sake, yes the MTA would be saving money, b/c operating costs of buses (plural) >> multiple workers salaries.... In most cases anyway.... 2) I know what attrition is... I don't see it as being anymore special than simply laying off workers & handing them severance b/c they've gotten laid off through no fault of their own.... You're making attrition out to be something overly positive... at the end of the day, it's nothin more than a process. 3) SCT don't have the buses, or the drivers to take on all of what I mentioned in that reply of mine... and let's face it, MTA's buses are less prone to breaking down (MDBF) than SCT's .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak7 Posted June 11, 2011 Share #134 Posted June 11, 2011 Staten Islanders know that situation with it's buses & the ferry all too well... same isht in Suffolk with the RR..... If you miss the SI Ferry, you're probably waiting 30 minutes, not an hour or even 2-3 hours. Many summer Hamptons/Montauk trains overcrowded, in fact, the MTA sent this service alert yesterday: For customers unable to board the 6:16 PM train from Jamaica to Montauk due to overcrowding, the 6:27 PM train from Penn (due Jamaica at 6:49 PM), will accommodate customers to Babylon, where they will connect to the 7:27 PM train from Babylon to Speonk. At Speonk, customers will be provided with bus service to Montauk. I don't mind malls as bus hubs, but using county offices is NOT a good idea. SCT's offices are in Yaphank, just north of the station, surrounded by farms. And the only bus that goes there is the S71, which doesn't have that much service. If the headquarters have so little service, what do you expect? :tdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted June 11, 2011 Share #135 Posted June 11, 2011 1) That's not up to the MTA to make that decision.... But for discussion's sake, yes the MTA would be saving money, b/c operating costs of buses (plural) >> multiple workers salaries.... In most cases anyway.... 2) I know what attrition is... I don't see it as being anymore special than simply laying off workers & handing them severance b/c they've gotten laid off through no fault of their own.... You're making attrition out to be something overly positive... at the end of the day, it's nothin more than a process. 3) SCT don't have the buses, or the drivers to take on all of what I mentioned in that reply of mine... and let's face it, MTA's buses are less prone to breaking down (MDBF) than SCT's .... Could SCT try to purchase buses from the same manufacturers that the MTA buys the buses from? If you miss the SI Ferry, you're probably waiting 30 minutes, not an hour or even 2-3 hours. Many summer Hamptons/Montauk trains overcrowded, in fact, the MTA sent this service alert yesterday: I don't mind malls as bus hubs, but using county offices is NOT a good idea. SCT's offices are in Yaphank, just north of the station, surrounded by farms. And the only bus that goes there is the S71, which doesn't have that much service. If the headquarters have so little service, what do you expect? :tdown: At night, the ferry runs every hour. Plus, even when the ferry runs every 30 minutes, the bus that missed the ferry is probably more crowded than the SCT bus that missed the train (not saying that, for the riders that do miss their trains, it is any better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted June 11, 2011 Share #136 Posted June 11, 2011 To Amtrak: 1) it was a little comparison... I know the waits per person (on average) per connection missed, are more severe in suffolk... 2) Riverhead (especially) & the one out in Hauppauge are also used... agree w/ the general point though.... To Checkmate: Yes, I realize that we're talking about the express buses.... by multiple buses, I'm referring to multiple express buses (as this discussion pertains to)..... ...and SCT's purchase options/preferences, that part of it I don't know... Maybe PinePower or mac5689 (if he's still a member here) can answer that for ya.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamousNYLover Posted June 11, 2011 Share #137 Posted June 11, 2011 I sent email to Veoila regardding MetroCard question and I got quick response. Thank you for your 2 very good questions, Yuki. I will be the CEO of Long Island Bus starting January 1, but I want to hear from customers before then. We were just selected yesterday and have much to do between now and the end of the year, so here’s the best I can do today to answer your questions today:· For the rest of this year, nothing will change as far as your MetroCard is concerned. · In 2012, we hope to have an agreement with that will allow you to use your MetroCard (or something that works like it) on both Long Island Bus and MTA’s service, but we must have an agreement with first and we have not yet had our first meeting with them. · Schedule information will be readily available on buses and many other media. I really appreciate hearing from you because we need to know what is important to our customers. Thank you. See you on the bus. Michael H. Setzer Vice President-Veolia Transportation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak7 Posted June 11, 2011 Share #138 Posted June 11, 2011 I sent email to Veoila regardding MetroCard question and I got quick response. Whoa!!! If the (future) administration of LIB is that responsive to customers, then I think they're going to start off well... What page did you use to email them? Here's 2 questions for Michael Setzer (better get used to that name!): Even though you promised not to cut routes in 2012, will there still be minor route truncations or schedule reductions? Will there be any changes to the policy that states that no local passengers shall be carried in Queens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamousNYLover Posted June 11, 2011 Share #139 Posted June 11, 2011 I didn't email page. I was so curious about MetroCard, I just asked. I asked your question to Veoila with link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinePower Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share #140 Posted June 12, 2011 Well what if nassau got the mainstream riders added to the private LIB operation then what was impossible will become possible. I see some kind of restructuring. If they can restructure LIB to woo the mainstream public to start using the buses then who knows you just never know I want to see this succeed even with the steep odds. It is possible the county is looking at new sources of revenue, such as bus wraps, and having LCD screens on buses displaying advertizing. Maybe vending machines at bus stops too. All great ideas the MTA hasn't really used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinePower Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share #141 Posted June 12, 2011 I sent email to Veoila regardding MetroCard question and I got quick response. That is quite impressive. I do like the customer approach. I think its extremely important Metrocards are kept, and the MTA said they would "help" LI Bus transition to a private operator, so hopefully they wont give too much trouble continuing the use of Metrocard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted June 12, 2011 Share #142 Posted June 12, 2011 It is possible the county is looking at new sources of revenue, such as bus wraps, and having LCD screens on buses displaying advertizing. Maybe vending machines at bus stops too. All great ideas the MTA hasn't really used. If vieola is this good I hope they make service better maybe mangando isnt such an idiot afterall. I hope this privitization is very sucessful and maybe it could become a good thing. If the new operator can be more customer focused than MTA I hope they take over SCT too and form LITA. They need to reroute N46 to gain mainstream ridership. I will send em a copy of a revision proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted June 12, 2011 Share #143 Posted June 12, 2011 Let's see if they're that prompt w/ their responses, come 2012...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted June 12, 2011 Share #144 Posted June 12, 2011 If vieola is this good I hope they make service better maybe mangando isnt such an idiot afterall. I hope this privitization is very sucessful and maybe it could become a good thing. If the new operator can be more customer focused than MTA I hope they take over SCT too and form LITA. They need to reroute N46 to gain mainstream ridership. I will send em a copy of a revision proposal. Nah, Mangano is still a moron. Chances are if he wasn't in office then we really wouldn't be in this mess today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q43LTD Posted June 12, 2011 Share #145 Posted June 12, 2011 If vieola is this good I hope they make service better maybe mangando isnt such an idiot afterall. I hope this privitization is very sucessful and maybe it could become a good thing. If the new operator can be more customer focused than MTA I hope they take over SCT too and form LITA. They need to reroute N46 to gain mainstream ridership. I will send em a copy of a revision proposal. I would leave the N46 alone. SCT too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted June 12, 2011 Share #146 Posted June 12, 2011 Nah, Mangano is still a moron. Chances are if he wasn't in office then we really wouldn't be in this mess today. you have a point he needs to go bye bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted June 12, 2011 Share #147 Posted June 12, 2011 Let's see if they're that prompt w/ their responses, come 2012...... I hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted June 12, 2011 Share #148 Posted June 12, 2011 No it isn't a moot point. If you're employed for a few years you have the chance to build up savings so that if you are fired you can live off of those savings or look for another job in the meantime, as opposed to having no job at all. An employer is much more inclined to hire someone who has a job than someone who isn't. Having to explain a gap in your work history is always annoying. Aside from that one less company hiring means fewer jobs for those folks looking for work. Whether you realize it or not attrition is not as peachy of a picture as you're trying to paint it. I probably should've rephrased my point better: It is better if a company flat out says: "We aren't hiring" if it is possible for you to take a different job. A lot of workers intend on staying on a job for a long period of time to collect pension benefits, and it might be better for them to immediately try for another job if they don't think that the job with the bus company would last the 10+ (or whatever the requirement may be) years that you need on the job in order to get a pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamousNYLover Posted June 12, 2011 Share #149 Posted June 12, 2011 Here's another response regardding Amtrak7's Question. Yuki, I wish I could answer your questions but we need to have an agreement with Nassau County first and then we need to do our own route and schedule study to be able to provide good information to you. I believe in being transparent and providing information to customers in convenient ways, but It is just too early in the process right now. I hope you will be patient. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted June 12, 2011 Share #150 Posted June 12, 2011 I wonder if Veolia will have buses that can take dollar bills? They did in Miami when I took the bus there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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