Queens Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Delete 

Edited September 5, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Have you even looked at the link I posted? The lowest point the route is on College Point Blvd under that plan is at 15th Avenue.

I saw the routing and I think IAlam's is better for the reasons I mentioned earlier.  I don't see your routing garnering enough ridership to keep the route afloat long term.  This isn't a local bus. If it was I would say ok fine, provide service for the area for coverage purposes.  This is an express bus and if it doesn't have enough people riding it will get the axe, so unless there are TONS of people using it along College Point Blvd in the areas discussed, good luck.  My other question how many different segments of College Point could this express bus draw riders from?

 

IAlam's routing draws ridership from the expensive parts of College Point, then goes past Malba (a second point for ridership), then goes through Mitchell Gardens (a third area for ridership because of the co-ops).  Are there any co-ops along your routing in College Point?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I saw the routing and I think IAlam's is better for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I don't see your routing garnering enough ridership to keep the route afloat long term. This isn't a local bus. If it was I would say ok fine, provide service for the area for coverage purposes. This is an express bus and if it doesn't have enough people riding it will get the axe, so unless there are TONS of people using it along College Point Blvd in the areas discussed, good luck. My other question how many different segments of College Point could this express bus draw riders from?

 

IAlam's routing draws ridership from the expensive parts of College Point, then goes past Malba (a second point for ridership), then goes through Mitchell Gardens (a third area for ridership because of the co-ops). Are there any co-ops along your routing in College Point?

Co-Op's don't define what make ridership, the point is that you have people willing to take the bus, whether from Co-Op's, or whatever. The QM24 doesn't run through any Co-Op's, yet the route does pretty well, much better than the QM20 and QM6, which indeed do serve apartments of Co-Op's (or both). The X63 doesn't serve Co-Op's either, nor do some of the Bronx Express, like the BxM8.

 

Besides the difference in routing with my modified rendition in the North, and the segment once it hits the Whitestone, it's almost the same thing, and serves the same thing.

Edited September 5, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Co-Op's don't define what make ridership, the point is that you have people willing to take the bus, whether from Co-Op's, or whatever. The QM24 doesn't run through any Co-Op's, yet the route does pretty well, much better than the QM20 and QM6, which indeed do serve apartments of Co-Op's (or both). The X63 doesn't serve Co-Op's either, nor do some of the Bronx Express, like the BxM8.

 

Besides the difference in routing with my modified rendition in the North, and the segment once it hits the Whitestone, it's almost the same thing, and serves the same thing.

Of course they don't but the BxM8 goes through dense areas where there's enough of a base to use the bus.  That's the point I'm making.

[B35 via Church]

The ambition in this discussion has gone too far....

 

Trying to siphon riders from Malba IMO is not only foolish, but a lost cause.... Ever since their little shuttle got the axe (a.k.a. the old Q44b), they've rejected a Q14 extension up to 3rd av (from 7th/clintonville) & tried to get a Q44 stop removed (that first SB stop after it comes off the Whitestone bridge)....

 

The Malba part of the 2 ideas presented just reeks of desperation.... To include that neighborhood is probably a good indication that a College Point express route won't do so hot.....

[IAlam]

The way I see it is lets add some 3rd ave variants of the QM20 cause the QM20 does get people considering it gets more Super Express departures compared to it QM2 counterpart. Then we can use the college point buses (going to 6th ave) to kinda replace those 3rd ave buses. This way if people in college point aren't too fond of their new service, it has a backup source of ridership. I do know for a fact that QM20's during rush hour can get pretty full by the time they get to parsons blvd, so it could take some load off that route and allow room for more service. Also what we all need to understand is they don't need to have a lot of service if the MTA wants, they could make it so it only has 3 departures like the QM3. If they want all they could make it so that there is one AM and one PM bus only nothing is stopping them.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The ambition in this discussion has gone too far....

 

Trying to siphon riders from Malba IMO is not only foolish, but a lost cause.... Ever since their little shuttle got the axe (a.k.a. the old Q44b), they've rejected a Q14 extension up to 3rd av (from 7th/clintonville) & tried to get a Q44 stop removed (that first SB stop after it comes off the Whitestone bridge)....

 

The Malba part of the 2 ideas presented just reeks of desperation.... To include that neighborhood is probably a good indication that a College Point express route won't do so hot.....

Well, then it doesn't have to go to Malba, it can continue straight on 14 Avenue. I still think such a route could garner ridership. You'll have buses garner ridership anyways from the QM2 stops at 14 Ave, 20 Avenue and Linden Place (which the QM2 would not serve when this route is running, running via Parsons, and then run express from Parsons/20). The real reason I have the route running is for the northern portion of College Point. My "target" was always more the northern section of College Point of the route (the original version of mine had it serve more of the north than the south (which was for the most part just straight).

 

Now that we're on the QM2 on Parsons, isn't it a better idea to have alternative QM2's serve Parsons (up to 20 Avenue) during the midday? It wouldn't affect many people. So basically, Parsons gets a bus every hour during middays on weekdays, and it could garner extra ridership. All the evening buses to and from Bay Terrace would go via Parsons/20.

Edited September 6, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The ambition in this discussion has gone too far....

 

Trying to siphon riders from Malba IMO is not only foolish, but a lost cause.... Ever since their little shuttle got the axe (a.k.a. the old Q44b), they've rejected a Q14 extension up to 3rd av (from 7th/clintonville) & tried to get a Q44 stop removed (that first SB stop after it comes off the Whitestone bridge)....

 

The Malba part of the 2 ideas presented just reeks of desperation.... To include that neighborhood is probably a good indication that a College Point express route won't do so hot.....

I agree with you, but since IAlam, BM5 and New Flyer seem convinced that there is enough ridership to garner such a route in College Point, I'm playing devil's advocate and saying fine, show me where the ridership will come from, which I'm still not seeing.  Within a route, you should be able to clearly say where the ridership comes from.  For example, Riverdale express buses have ridership from several areas. I can state with clarity where the BxM1 ridership comes from:

 

BxM1: Some ridership from North Riverdale (private houses and co-ops), some ridership from Fieldston (private houses and co-ops), chunk of ridership from Central Riverdale (private houses, lots of co-ops and some condos), chunk of ridership from Spuyten Duyvil (lots of co-ops), some from Kingsbridge (private houses and some apartment buildings) and then Inwood (NewYork-Presbyterian hospital workers and Inwood residents west of Broadway).

 

So all I keep hearing is there's ridership there, but nothing specific and I'm still not buying the idea that all of those people that currently use the subway would suddenly switch to the express bus.  Most commuters usually stick to one service. In Riverdale, you have your bus to subway riders, your Metro-North riders and your express bus riders.  Not too many people switch between two of them let alone three. 

 

All I'm saying is if they believe there's ridership, then tell me specifically where it will come from?  Private households? If so from where and why?  If it is private households, then there needs to be a significant amount of them willing to switch to the express bus.

 

I strongly believe that any College Point bus would have to steal riders from the adjacent areas of Whitestone and Malba and other areas served by the QM2 and QM20 in order to have a chance.  I just don't see enough ridership from College Point alone given the areas that could use the new service that currently use the QM2.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Now that we're on the QM2 on Parsons, isn't it a better idea to have alternative QM2's serve Parsons (up to 20 Avenue) during the midday? It wouldn't affect many people. So basically, Parsons gets a bus every hour during middays on weekdays, and it could garner extra ridership. All the evening buses to and from Bay Terrace would go via Parsons/20.

And what would be the point of that?  It already runs on Parsons on weekends with next to no one boarding.  I get on along Parsons and out all of the times that I've boarded and got off there's only been one time that someone has boarded with me at 20th Avenue.  Down at 14th Avenue and Parsons I've never seen anyone board or get off there.  Sure it can serve a more residential part of Whitestone, but don't expect much ridership from it.

[IAlam]

I agree with you, but since IAlam, BM5 and New Flyer seem convinced that there is enough ridership to garner such a route in College Point, I'm playing devil's advocate and saying fine, show me where the ridership will come from, which I'm still not seeing.  Within a route, you should be able to clearly say where the ridership comes from.  For example, Riverdale express buses have ridership from several areas. I can state with clarity where the BxM1 ridership comes from:

 

BxM1: Some ridership from North Riverdale (private houses and co-ops), some ridership from Fieldston (private houses and co-ops), chunk of ridership from Central Riverdale (private houses, lots of co-ops and some condos), chunk of ridership from Spuyten Duyvil (lots of co-ops), some from Kingsbridge (private houses and some apartment buildings) and then Inwood (NewYork-Presbyterian hospital workers and Inwood residents west of Broadway).

 

So all I keep hearing is there's ridership there, but nothing specific and I'm still not buying the idea that all of those people that currently use the subway would suddenly switch to the express bus.  Most commuters usually stick to one service. In Riverdale, you have your bus to subway riders, your Metro-North riders and your express bus riders.  Not too many people switch between two of them let alone three. 

 

All I'm saying is if they believe there's ridership, then tell me specifically where it will come from?  Private households? If so from where and why?  If it is private households, then there needs to be a significant amount of them willing to switch to the express bus.

 

I strongly believe that any College Point bus would have to steal riders from the adjacent areas of Whitestone and Malba and other areas served by the QM2 and QM20 in order to have a chance.  I just don't see enough ridership from College Point alone given the areas that could use the new service that currently use the QM2.

You do have a a good point but it's hard to tell who will use the bus until the actual bus starts running look at the NYCT routes in queens the only one that LOOKS like a good route is the x68 yet routes like the x63 have long service hours and re x64 is still doing fine. Getting on these NYCT routes I always notice the same thing unlike other Express bus routes, these routes have a much more mixed ridership. Pretty much it's one of they very few times where white peple are a minority. These buses go through mostly lower middle class and working class neighborhoods were money is a lot more tight. However if you ride theses lines the people getting off is pretty spread out for the most part. last Romeo rode the x68 a bunch of people got off at 165th, while no one did at 169th. (entrance to Jamaica hills) Which is the opposite of what I expected. You really can't predict with 100% certainty whether or not it will be successful until the route runs itself. Also if the MTA really wanted to save money they should have any buses to Manhattan after 12 and no buses to queens until 2. If you've ever been on those buses you'll see that they make no profit from those runs.

[Armandito]

Chances are, the MTA isn't restoring Q74 and Q75 bus service despite community pressure...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You do have a a good point but it's hard to tell who will use the bus until the actual bus starts running look at the NYCT routes in queens the only one that LOOKS like a good route is the x68 yet routes like the x63 have long service hours and re x64 is still doing fine. Getting on these NYCT routes I always notice the same thing unlike other Express bus routes, these routes have a much more mixed ridership. Pretty much it's one of they very few times where white peple are a minority. These buses go through mostly lower middle class and working class neighborhoods were money is a lot more tight. However if you ride theses lines the people getting off is pretty spread out for the most part. last Romeo rode the x68 a bunch of people got off at 165th, while no one did at 169th. (entrance to Jamaica hills) Which is the opposite of what I expected. You really can't predict with 100% certainty whether or not it will be successful until the route runs itself. Also if the MTA really wanted to save money they should have any buses to Manhattan after 12 and no buses to queens until 2. If you've ever been on those buses you'll see that they make no profit from those runs.

It's not that hard at all.  Just because an area is affluent doesn't mean people will use it.  We can use Fieldston as an example.  The folks in Fieldston that use the express bus are not going to be coming from the estate area because they drive for the most part, so that means the people using it will be coming from the doorman buildings and co-ops along Henry Hudson Parkway West.  That's why I keep asking who your ridership base will be because yes, College Point does have some affluent areas by the water, but those are mainly homeowners, and they are not always inclined to use public transportation, including express buses.  The areas that do well tend to be not only affluent but also folks that live in co-ops, condos, etc. 

 

Now you brought up the X63, X64 and X68.  None of them have exactly stellar ridership and they go through areas that are quite susceptible to the economic climate, which is why all except one has seen ridership drop.  Those are lines that go through areas that are working middle class at best.  I continue to monitor ridership on our Riverdale express buses, and we often times pass right through Kingsbridge which is working class and less likely to be able to afford the premium fare.  Do we get ridership from there? Of course, but it sure as hell wouldn't be consistent enough to have its own service.  It is Riverdale that provides the bulk of the usage.

 

As for your comments about cutting midday service that's completely foolish.  Ridership on ALL routes (local and express) during midday tends to be lower than during peak periods, which only makes sense.  I've been off since Thursday and have been using the express buses during midday.  Ridership was light but still quite good.  Queens has a much different ridership base in terms of the express buses.  Riverdale is a bedroom community so we travel to and from Manhattan MUCH more frequently.  Queens on the other hand is different.  They go to the city for work and play but trips to the city aren't as frequent.  Same deal with me.  When I was living on Staten Island, I made trips to the city but nearly as often as I do now live in Riverdale.  There are days when I make two trips to and from the city because it's easy to do.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[NewFlyer 230]

I agree with you, but since IAlam, BM5 and New Flyer seem convinced that there is enough ridership to garner such a route in College Point, I'm playing devil's advocate and saying fine, show me where the ridership will come from, which I'm still not seeing. Within a route, you should be able to clearly say where the ridership comes from. For example, Riverdale express buses have ridership from several areas. I can state with clarity where the BxM1 ridership comes from:

 

BxM1: Some ridership from North Riverdale (private houses and co-ops), some ridership from Fieldston (private houses and co-ops), chunk of ridership from Central Riverdale (private houses, lots of co-ops and some condos), chunk of ridership from Spuyten Duyvil (lots of co-ops), some from Kingsbridge (private houses and some apartment buildings) and then Inwood (NewYork-Presbyterian hospital workers and Inwood residents west of Broadway).

 

So all I keep hearing is there's ridership there, but nothing specific and I'm still not buying the idea that all of those people that currently use the subway would suddenly switch to the express bus. Most commuters usually stick to one service. In Riverdale, you have your bus to subway riders, your Metro-North riders and your express bus riders. Not too many people switch between two of them let alone three.

 

All I'm saying is if they believe there's ridership, then tell me specifically where it will come from? Private households? If so from where and why? If it is private households, then there needs to be a significant amount of them willing to switch to the express bus.

 

I strongly believe that any College Point bus would have to steal riders from the adjacent areas of Whitestone and Malba and other areas served by the QM2 and QM20 in order to have a chance. I just don't see enough ridership from College Point alone given the areas that could use the new service that currently use the QM2.

Hey relax man I'm not upset if you don't think my proposal was good or not. I just presented an idea and I wanted to know how some of you all thought about it. So I have came up with the conclusion that half of us want to see a College Point express the other half such as yourself believe that College Point is good without one. I understand where you are coming from. College Point never had a express route so people might not support the idea of a express route in CP. You feel that people in the area can't afford express bus service and I think it may just be a matter of not wanting to pay for it since they never had to pay a lot for bus service.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Hey relax man I'm not upset if you don't think my proposal was good or not. I just presented an idea and I wanted to know how some of you all thought about it. So I have came up with the conclusion that half of us want to see a College Point express the other half such as yourself believe that College Point is good without one. I understand where you are coming from. College Point never had a express route so people might not support the idea of a express route in CP. You feel that people in the area can't afford express bus service and I think it may just be a matter of not wanting to pay for it since they never had to pay a lot for bus service.

lol... I'm certainly not upset believe me.  I'm just playing Devil's advocate.  I do believe there are express bus riders in College Point, just not enough of them to sustain a express bus route of its own.

[B35 via Church]

 

 

 

Well, then it doesn't have to go to Malba, it can continue straight on 14 Avenue. I still think such a route could garner ridership. You'll have buses garner ridership anyways from the QM2 stops at 14 Ave, 20 Avenue and Linden Place (which the QM2 would not serve when this route is running, running via Parsons, and then run express from Parsons/20). The real reason I have the route running is for the northern portion of College Point. My "target" was always more the northern section of College Point of the route (the original version of mine had it serve more of the north than the south (which was for the most part just straight).

 

Now that we're on the QM2 on Parsons, isn't it a better idea to have alternative QM2's serve Parsons (up to 20 Avenue) during the midday? It wouldn't affect many people. So basically, Parsons gets a bus every hour during middays on weekdays, and it could garner extra ridership. All the evening buses to and from Bay Terrace would go via Parsons/20.

Yeah, but how much ridership is the question..... Give me a current express route which would resemble how much ridership you believe a college point exp. route would get (in the peak direction)..... In particular, (potential) ridership above 14th av - which is basically your target.....  I mean, if you think/thought a college point express could garner enough ridership, then there would be no reason in the world to deviate it to serve a] Malba & b] have to steal Qm2/20 ridership from Mitchell Gardens.....

 

At one point & time, I also thought there should be a College point express route....

But to be frank with you, they have an abundance of local service (BPH, to the subway) - and I don't see those patrons sacrificing that for an express route..... No way would the MTA provide them w/ express bus service & the amount of total BPH from every route that serves College Point running to Flushing-Main subway.... Their commute to the subway isn't that long, and AFAIK, they're not very vocal when it comes to public transit (not to say they don't want it obviously, but more, a sign of contentedness).... Now if those patrons were to / actually are fed up that much with the , then you may have a case.... Somewhat....

 

 

I agree with you, but since IAlam, BM5 and New Flyer seem convinced that there is enough ridership to garner such a route in College Point, I'm playing devil's advocate and saying fine, show me where the ridership will come from, which I'm still not seeing.  Within a route, you should be able to clearly say where the ridership comes from.  For example, Riverdale express buses have ridership from several areas. I can state with clarity where the BxM1 ridership comes from:

 

BxM1: Some ridership from North Riverdale (private houses and co-ops), some ridership from Fieldston (private houses and co-ops), chunk of ridership from Central Riverdale (private houses, lots of co-ops and some condos), chunk of ridership from Spuyten Duyvil (lots of co-ops), some from Kingsbridge (private houses and some apartment buildings) and then Inwood (NewYork-Presbyterian hospital workers and Inwood residents west of Broadway).

 

So all I keep hearing is there's ridership there, but nothing specific and I'm still not buying the idea that all of those people that currently use the subway would suddenly switch to the express bus.  Most commuters usually stick to one service. In Riverdale, you have your bus to subway riders, your Metro-North riders and your express bus riders.  Not too many people switch between two of them let alone three. 

 

All I'm saying is if they believe there's ridership, then tell me specifically where it will come from?  Private households? If so from where and why?  If it is private households, then there needs to be a significant amount of them willing to switch to the express bus.

 

I strongly believe that any College Point bus would have to steal riders from the adjacent areas of Whitestone and Malba and other areas served by the QM2 and QM20 in order to have a chance.  I just don't see enough ridership from College Point alone given the areas that could use the new service that currently use the QM2.

Oh, you didn't have to explain yourself, I got your position.... See, I've been following along (lurking) in this discussion & have been rather quiet up until this point.... When I started hearing talks about serving Malba (from the pro-college point express guys), I'm like whoa, y'all going overboard with this now.... Either in ignorance of not knowing how/what Malba really is (far more snotty than Riverdalians, I'll tell you that much), or as I said earlier, in total desperation of garnering ridership....

 

As for your comparison/example.... Simply put, College Point isn't near the residential community (density-wise) Riverdale is.... You're not going to get a breakdown (a potent one anyway) like what you just did for the BxM1, with a College Point exp. route.... One more thing - another problem I see with giving College point an express, is just how industrial it is, in juxtaposition with how residential it is..... This is one of the main reasons I gave up on the whole express bus to College point being a good idea bit..... BM5 mentions the more northern part of College Point, which is fine to try to target/aim for - except there's a lot of SFR's up there (hell, college pt. in general is like that).... Now compare that to Riverdale, Bay Terrace, Forest Hills, etc....

 

College point (the neighborhood) is not large enough to garner enough ridership from serving a bunch of SFR's.....

You would have to have a route like the x23/24 (south shore, which is SFR haven/heaven) to even come close....

 

* SFR - single family residences....

 

You do have a a good point but it's hard to tell who will use the bus until the actual bus starts running look at the NYCT routes in queens the only one that LOOKS like a good route is the x68 yet routes like the x63 have long service hours and re x64 is still doing fine. Getting on these NYCT routes I always notice the same thing unlike other Express bus routes, these routes have a much more mixed ridership. Pretty much it's one of they very few times where white peple are a minority. These buses go through mostly lower middle class and working class neighborhoods were money is a lot more tight. However if you ride theses lines the people getting off is pretty spread out for the most part. last Romeo rode the x68 a bunch of people got off at 165th, while no one did at 169th. (entrance to Jamaica hills) Which is the opposite of what I expected. You really can't predict with 100% certainty whether or not it will be successful until the route runs itself. Also if the MTA really wanted to save money they should have any buses to Manhattan after 12 and no buses to queens until 2. If you've ever been on those buses you'll see that they make no profit from those runs.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the x63/64/68, as it relates to the discussion about providing College point with an express bus.... It's almost as if you're implicating that since the QV express bus routes are doing fine & the x68 in particular looks like a good route & all that, then maybe just maybe a College point express will pan out...... If that's infact the case, I'm simply going to say that the commutes to Manhattan for a College point resident to that of a SE Queens resident are not similar at all..... a SE Queens resident would gladly take the commute of a college point resident; taking the Q25/65 to the over *insert a Jamaica - SE Queens feeder* to the , , or lines.....

 

As far as the x64 doing fine, nah..... Out of the 3 QV express routes, the x64 is doing the worst - and has been so for years now....

I mean neither of the 3 are anything to write home about looking at the grand scheme of things, but the usage on the x63 & x68 significantly trumps the usage on the x64.....

.

....and who's "Romeo".... lol....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Yeah, but how much ridership is the question..... Give me a current express route which would resemble how much ridership you believe a college point exp. route would get (in the peak direction)..... In particular, (potential) ridership above 14th av - which is basically your target.....  I mean, if you think/thought a college point express could garner enough ridership, then there would be no reason in the world to deviate it to serve a] Malba & b] have to steal Qm2/20 ridership from Mitchell Gardens.....

 

At one point & time, I also thought there should be a College point express route....

But to be frank with you, they have an abundance of local service (BPH, to the subway) - and I don't see those patrons sacrificing that for an express route..... No way would the MTA provide them w/ express bus service & the amount of total BPH from every route that serves College Point running to Flushing-Main subway.... Their commute to the subway isn't that long, and AFAIK, they're not very vocal when it comes to public transit (not to say they don't want it obviously, but more, a sign of contentedness).... Now if those patrons were to / actually are fed up that much with the , then you may have a case.... Somewhat....

As for a current bus route that its ridership would resemble, I would say the QM21. While it seems little, keep in mind that this route would run for a less span than the QM21 does, more noticeable in the PM. I never agreed to iAlam's routing in Mitchell Gardens (my revised routing stayed on the Whitestone, citing that the 20 is enough there). The QM20 would just run on the Whitestone, and this would displace QM2's (6 Avenue buses) to Parsons and Whitestone Expressway Main Road, with this College Point bus making all the stops along the service road from 14 Avenue to Linden Place. This way, QM2's operate like super expresses anyways from Parsons and 20th to Manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yeah, but how much ridership is the question..... Give me a current express route which would resemble how much ridership you believe a college point exp. route would get (in the peak direction)..... In particular, (potential) ridership above 14th av - which is basically your target.....  I mean, if you think/thought a college point express could garner enough ridership, then there would be no reason in the world to deviate it to serve a] Malba & b] have to steal Qm2/20 ridership from Mitchell Gardens.....

 

At one point & time, I also thought there should be a College point express route....

But to be frank with you, they have an abundance of local service (BPH, to the subway) - and I don't see those patrons sacrificing that for an express route..... No way would the MTA provide them w/ express bus service & the amount of total BPH from every route that serves College Point running to Flushing-Main subway.... Their commute to the subway isn't that long, and AFAIK, they're not very vocal when it comes to public transit (not to say they don't want it obviously, but more, a sign of contentedness).... Now if those patrons were to / actually are fed up that much with the , then you may have a case.... Somewhat....

 

 

Oh, you didn't have to explain yourself, I got your position.... See, I've been following along (lurking) in this discussion & have been rather quiet up until this point.... When I started hearing talks about serving Malba (from the pro-college point express guys), I'm like whoa, y'all going overboard with this now.... Either in ignorance of not knowing how/what Malba really is (far more snotty than Riverdalians, I'll tell you that much), or as I said earlier, in total desperation of garnering ridership....

 

As for your comparison/example.... Simply put, College Point isn't near the residential community (density-wise) Riverdale is.... You're not going to get a breakdown (a potent one anyway) like what you just did for the BxM1, with a College Point exp. route.... One more thing - another problem I see with giving College point an express, is just how industrial it is, in juxtaposition with how residential it is..... This is one of the main reasons I gave up on the whole express bus to College point being a good idea bit..... BM5 mentions the more northern part of College Point, which is fine to try to target/aim for - except there's a lot of SFR's up there (hell, college pt. in general is like that).... Now compare that to Riverdale, Bay Terrace, Forest Hills, etc....

 

College point (the neighborhood) is not large enough to garner enough ridership from serving a bunch of SFR's.....

You would have to have a route like the x23/24 (south shore, which is SFR haven/heaven) to even come close....

 

* SFR - single family residences....

I'm glad you were thinking what I was thinking because everything that you said is exactly what I've observed when taking the QM2 and being over near College Point.  And yes Malba residents are quite snobby and to say that they're snobbier than Riverdalians is saying something given the snobs on the BxM1, BxM2 and BxM18.  Each line has a level of snobbery with the BxM1 being the snobbiest by far, but the QM2 is quite snobby too.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[NewFlyer 230]

As for a current bus route that its ridership would resemble, I would say the QM21. While it seems little, keep in mind that this route would run for a less span than the QM21 does, more noticeable in the PM. I never agreed to iAlam's routing in Mitchell Gardens (my revised routing stayed on the Whitestone, citing that the 20 is enough there). The QM20 would just run on the Whitestone, and this would displace QM2's (6 Avenue buses) to Parsons and Whitestone Expressway Main Road, with this College Point bus making all the stops along the service road from 14 Avenue to Linden Place. This way, QM2's operate like super expresses anyways from Parsons and 20th to Manhattan.

I wasn't a fan of iAlams proposal to serve Mitchell Gardens and Malba. The route will steal from the QM20 and that will just give the MTA an excuse to cut service on the QM20 and even the QM2. I don't want the bus to go into or near Malba because they got rid of their route I think it was the Q44B or Q71 a while back. So they probably don't want buses running up and down through there. I don't think running it on 14th Ave is any good either because the Q20B is the lightest used College Point route beside the Q76. That is why the express bus would be good on the Q25 and Q65 side of College Point. I can see it getting more used over there then in Malba or Mitchell Gardens. Like some said the usage may not even justify a route at all since residents are fine paying $2.75

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I wasn't a fan of iAlams proposal to serve Mitchell Gardens and Malba. The route will steal from the QM20 and that will just give the MTA an excuse to cut service on the QM20 and even the QM2. I don't want the bus to go into or near Malba because they got rid of their route I think it was the Q44B or Q71 a while back. So they probably don't want buses running up and down through there. I don't think running it on 14th Ave is any good either because the Q20B is the lightest used College Point route beside the Q76. That is why the express bus would be good on the Q25 and Q65 side of College Point. I can see it getting more used over there then in Malba or Mitchell Gardens. Like some said the usage may not even justify a route at all since residents are fine paying $2.75

The Q20B being the lightest utilized College Point bus route (while true) should not be an indicator of where the bus should run. The area around Poppuhusen Park is the most populated, followed by the section between 14 and 20 Ave between College Point Blvd and the Whitepoint shopping center. That is also where the income is higher too. South of 20 Avenue, there's (IMO) no need for express service. It already runs on the Q25 and Q65 side north of 15 Avenue, so I don't really see a problem.

Running along 14 Avenue would also let the QM2 serve more areas of Whitestone and provide a faster ride for those residents, and the rest of the line during the rush.

[IAlam]

....and who's "Romeo".... lol....

Autocorrect, I missed it completely

 

 

I'm glad you were thinking what I was thinking because everything that you said is exactly what I've observed when taking the QM2 and being over near College Point.  And yes Malba residents are quite snobby and to say that they're snobbier than Riverdalians is saying something given the snobs on the BxM1, BxM2 and BxM18.  Each line has a level of snobbery with the BxM1 being the snobbiest by far, but the QM2 is quite snobby too.

The QM2 is like the snobbiest of queens in my opinion. The Qm2 riders at 34th/6th ave just hate the QM20 and their riders, idk why. I remember the last time I tried to ride the super express I didn't care if it was the QM2 or QM20 cause I was going to the Q25 but the QM2 riders insisted (screamed in my face really) that I do not get on the QM20 super express. They kept talking about how horrible those people were, and how horrible the driver was and, how horrible everything about the QM20 was, no joke.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The QM2 is like the snobbiest of queens in my opinion. The Qm2 riders at 34th/6th ave just hate the QM20 and their riders, idk why. I remember the last time I tried to ride the super express I didn't care if it was the QM2 or QM20 cause I was going to the Q25 but the QM2 riders insisted (screamed in my face really) that I do not get on the QM20 super express. They kept talking about how horrible those people were, and how horrible the driver was and, how horrible everything about the QM20 was, no joke.

The QM2 serves the more affluent areas of Northeast Queens (Whitestone (including Malba), Beechhurst is quite affluent, and then Bay Terrace.  The QM20 on the other hand serves areas that aren't as affluent, so those QM2 riders down on the QM20 riders.

 

A similar thing happens when blacks get on at 230th and Broadway down in Marble Hill (doesn't happen very often but they get on here and there).  You can feel the tension on the bus, especially the BxM1 (Upper East Side snobby types). lol  When I moved to Riverdale my realtor told me that there is always drama on the Riverdale express buses and boy was he right. One of the first nights I got the BxM18 home, there was a confrontation between a black lady who I suspect lived up in Yonkers and a white lady (Riverdalian).  Apparently the white lady was pissed about her sitting in "her seat".  For a while I heard that there was "assigned seats" going back to the Liberty days.  It's become less snobbier to some extent, but still plenty of them riding, but yes I think the QM2 is up there. I can't recall any of the Staten Island express buses being that snobby and the closest snobby express bus in Brooklyn is perhaps the X27.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

As for a current bus route that its ridership would resemble, I would say the QM21. While it seems little, keep in mind that this route would run for a less span than the QM21 does, more noticeable in the PM.

 

I never agreed to iAlam's routing in Mitchell Gardens (my revised routing stayed on the Whitestone, citing that the 20 is enough there). The QM20 would just run on the Whitestone, and this would displace QM2's (6 Avenue buses) to Parsons and Whitestone Expressway Main Road, with this College Point bus making all the stops along the service road from 14 Avenue to Linden Place. This way, QM2's operate like super expresses anyways from Parsons and 20th to Manhattan.

- What you're essentially saying is that you think this college pt. route would minimally resemble a similar amt. of avg. pax that the QM21 gets..... The lesser/narrower span than the QM21 part means nothing if you don't state how many trips the college. point route would have within that span.... In other words, would there be the same amt. of trips that the QM21 has within that narrower span? more trips? less trips?

 

- I saw both of your routings..... I never said your route runs in Mitchell Gardens (like iAlam's did)....

My exact quote was:

I mean, if you think/thought a college point express could garner enough ridership, then there would be no reason in the world to deviate it to serve a] Malba & b] have to steal Qm2/20 ridership from Mitchell Gardens.....

.....From Mitchell Gardens.

The route doesn't have to run in Mitchell Gardens (like the QM20 does) to get pax from Mitchell Gardens (the QM2 does this!).....

 

What I was getting at with that comment, was the notion of even running a college point express route along the Whitestone expwy. service road all the way up to 14th, to get to your target area of northern college point.... That looks to me like the both of you are trying to steal ridership from off the QM2/20.....

 

See, when I was first thinking up a college point route, I had New Flyer's train of thought (instead of having such a route backdoor its way into the northern part of the neighborhood via 14th)... I wanted to try to serve those patrons around college pt blvd b/w 23rd & 28th, as well as northern college point... There's no feasible way to do that w/o bumping into too much industry (or tight residential streets), and there's no way in hell running an express bus clear up college pt. blvd. to 14th > then 127th > 7th > rest of Q25 routing would be favorable, due to how narrow (and worse, commercial) college pt. blvd is in "central" college point (the neighborhood).... Basically the area b/w 14th & 23rd along college pt. blvd..... Bad enough the Q65 has to contend with that..... Ever seen the Q20[a] make that turn from 20th to coll. pt... Some adventure... lol....

 

As far as shifting the QM2 to Parsons to have the college pt. exp. route make those stops along the whitestone expwy (service rd.) the Qm2 does, I think that's actually a disservice to the QM2.... Parsons would add more time to the QM2.... You could accomplish the same thing by simply removing QM2 stops along the whitestone expwy & having the college pt. route make those stops instead.... In other words, both the college pt. route & the QM2 would utilize the service rd, but the QM2 wouldn't make stops along it (nonstop along the service rd.).....

 

I'm glad you were thinking what I was thinking because everything that you said is exactly what I've observed when taking the QM2 and being over near College Point.  And yes Malba residents are quite snobby and to say that they're snobbier than Riverdalians is saying something given the snobs on the BxM1, BxM2 and BxM18.  Each line has a level of snobbery with the BxM1 being the snobbiest by far, but the QM2 is quite snobby too.

AFAIC, the snobbery that exists on the QM2 is really only of pax that utilize it in Beechhurst (powell's cove, lehavre apts riders).... The Bay Terrace crowd I don't find to be snobbish.... Most of those folks are older anyway, like 50-60+ (not that old people can't be snobs, but more that they're too old to care to exude the attitude... lol)..... The Beechhurst crowd that uses the QM2 is closer to our age (30-40).... Anyway, the rest of the route west of Beechhurst b/w [C.I.P./154 (inbound) || C.I.P./Francis Lewis (outbound)] & [linden pl], there's no snob factor (from those that use it w/i that stretch).....

 

What I never understood when fanning the riverdale expresses is how much more uppity the riders are on the BxM1, compared to the BxM2 (the BxM18 is somewhere in the middle b/w the 1 & 2; not nearly as bad as the 1, but moreso than the 2 - basically, it's noticable).... Anyway, that is something I immediately picked up on after fanning both routes a couple of times (BxM1/2), and it continued to remain apparent years afterwards..... Is it the whole east side - west side (manhattan) factor, or is it something else? To be honest, I never stopped to think why that was (well, is).....

 

I wasn't a fan of iAlams proposal to serve Mitchell Gardens and Malba. The route will steal from the QM20 and that will just give the MTA an excuse to cut service on the QM20 and even the QM2. I don't want the bus to go into or near Malba because they got rid of their route I think it was the Q44B or Q71 a while back. So they probably don't want buses running up and down through there. I don't think running it on 14th Ave is any good either because the Q20B is the lightest used College Point route beside the Q76. That is why the express bus would be good on the Q25 and Q65 side of College Point. I can see it getting more used over there then in Malba or Mitchell Gardens. Like some said the usage may not even justify a route at all since residents are fine paying $2.75

The Q20B being the lightest utilized College Point bus route (while true) should not be an indicator of where the bus should run. The area around Poppuhusen Park is the most populated, followed by the section between 14 and 20 Ave between College Point Blvd and the Whitepoint shopping center. That is also where the income is higher too. South of 20 Avenue, there's (IMO) no need for express service. It already runs on the Q25 and Q65 side north of 15 Avenue, so I don't really see a problem.

Running along 14 Avenue would also let the QM2 serve more areas of Whitestone and provide a faster ride for those residents, and the rest of the line during the rush.

As I said earlier in this post, I sided w/ New Flyer's train of thought.... Didn't like the idea of such a route "backdooring" its way into the neighborhood either.... To boot, it's not really a college point route at that point.... But I do concur w/ BM5's point about not putting a route on 14th av, due to how poorly used the local route that runs along it, is.... Yes, SI is a special case w/ no subways & all, but I'm still going to make the point that, if we followed that logic, the entire south shore wouldn't have express bus service

 

FTR, I'm not arguing how much usage an express bus could get along 14th av.... My gripe is more the backdooring into college point.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

AFAIC, the snobbery that exists on the QM2 is really only of pax that utilize it in Beechhurst (powell's cove, lehavre apts riders).... The Bay Terrace crowd I don't find to be snobbish.... Most of those folks are older anyway, like 50-60+ (not that old people can't be snobs, but more that they're too old to care to exude the attitude... lol)..... The Beechhurst crowd that uses the QM2 is closer to our age (30-40).... Anyway, the rest of the route west of Beechhurst b/w [C.I.P./154 (inbound) || C.I.P./Francis Lewis (outbound)] & [linden pl], there's no snob factor (from those that use it w/i that stretch).....

 

What I never understood when fanning the riverdale expresses is how much more uppity the riders are on the BxM1, compared to the BxM2 (the BxM18 is somewhere in the middle b/w the 1 & 2; not nearly as bad as the 1, but moreso than the 2 - basically, it's noticable).... Anyway, that is something I immediately picked up on after fanning both routes a couple of times (BxM1/2), and it continued to remain apparent years afterwards..... Is it the whole east side - west side (manhattan) factor, or is it something else? To be honest, I never stopped to think why that was (well, is).....

That makes sense in terms of the Beechhurst folks... That area is quite well-to-do and also rather isolated... Usually the more isolated and well off the area, the more snobby. lol

 

As for the BxM1 snobbery, I think it has a lot to do with a lot of those people either working or being former residents of the Upper East Side, which can be quite snobby and conservative in its own right.  I have met some former Upper West Side residents that ride the BxM2 and they can be a bit more down-to-earth than the BxM1 types that I chat with.  I also find that the BxM1 tends to have more regulars that will switch to the BxM2. The BxM2 has an array of folks, some from Mount Sinai (RNs, doctors, etc.), and those folks tend to be down to earth.  Most of the white collar types here in Riverdale work on the East Side, and East Midtown (as someone who has worked in the area for years) has a level of snobbery far higher than West Midtown, which is another reason as well (just think Park, 5th, Madison Avenue types).  The BxM18 has its own Downtown snobs and there's definitely an undertone between us Midtown riders and the Downtown riders.  It has dissipated a bit now that I've been using the line for years, but it still exists.

[IAlam]

The QM2 serves the more affluent areas of Northeast Queens (Whitestone (including Malba), Beechhurst is quite affluent, and then Bay Terrace.  The QM20 on the other hand serves areas that aren't as affluent, so those QM2 riders down on the QM20 riders.

 

A similar thing happens when blacks get on at 230th and Broadway down in Marble Hill (doesn't happen very often but they get on here and there).  You can feel the tension on the bus, especially the BxM1 (Upper East Side snobby types). lol  When I moved to Riverdale my realtor told me that there is always drama on the Riverdale express buses and boy was he right. One of the first nights I got the BxM18 home, there was a confrontation between a black lady who I suspect lived up in Yonkers and a white lady (Riverdalian).  Apparently the white lady was pissed about her sitting in "her seat".  For a while I heard that there was "assigned seats" going back to the Liberty days.  It's become less snobbier to some extent, but still plenty of them riding, but yes I think the QM2 is up there. I can't recall any of the Staten Island express buses being that snobby and the closest snobby express bus in Brooklyn is perhaps the X27.

The MTA doesn't have assigned seat today so if someone told me to get off a seat excluding for disabled passengers, I would tell them I paid for my seat and I came here first. If they still complain I'd tell them to F*** off and just blast my music on my phone. I couldn't care less for snobby riders tbh especially if they annoy me. However if I'm asked nicely I wouldn't mind moving as long as I don't have the shotgun seat. If I have the shotgun seat I say the exact same thing tbh.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The MTA doesn't have assigned seat today so if someone told me to get off a seat excluding for disabled passengers, I would tell them I paid for my seat and I came here first. If they still complain I'd tell them to F*** off and just blast my music on my phone. I couldn't care less for snobby riders tbh especially if they annoy me. However if I'm asked nicely I wouldn't mind moving as long as I don't have the shotgun seat. If I have the shotgun seat I say the exact same thing tbh.

I have my seat and I don't like sitting next to anybody. In fact it hasn't happened in years.  Even on Staten Island, if the bus was SRO I could care less. They can stand on the damn roof for all I care.  You either say the magic words, or you stand.