Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Shortline Bus]

Now let's see if it actually does improve air conditions on the site.

 

 

We shall see.

[Brighton Express]

Ok, I see we have a lot of stuff down here.

 

I know we have already gone over this, but tell me what do you think will be the final track amount for the 2 Av Subway? I think that it will be 2T, and when the joins, there will be a 3T. The will run downtown Express on the 3T for the first half of the day, and it will run in the other direction the second half. Late nights, it will either run Local or go to 57 St.

[Mysterious2train]

The line is supposed to be 2 tracked the whole way from 125th St to Hanover Square. 72nd St station was supposed to have three tracks but is now going to be two tracks as well. (See here) Opinion is divided over whether or not the lack of express tracks will screw over the line in the future. (I definitely think so. Lines like the Flushing and Pelham lines today, could definitely benefit from being four-tracked and having bidirectional express service, but at least the isn't leaving out express tracks because they don't see the value of them.)

 

Irrelevant, but the "Tracks of the NYC Subway" book actually has a track map of the Second Ave subway as planned (from Lex-125th to Hanover Square) in all of its two-tracked glory. I'd scan it, but I lost it and have no doubt it's in a landfill somewhere... The online track maps don't have this little 'sneak peak'.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Mysterious2train

[Brighton Express]

I know all about it being 2T all the way, to 125 St, but I still think that we need some Express when the joins.

 

Something just hit me. Imagine if the 3 Av EL tracks were still here. A Bronx extension may have been coming sooner than we thought. Surely, those 3 Av EL tracks could have come in handy.

[Roadcruiser1]

I know all about it being 2T all the way, to 125 St, but I still think that we need some Express when the joins.

 

Something just hit me. Imagine if the 3 Av EL tracks were still here. A Bronx extension may have been coming sooner than we thought. Surely, those 3 Av EL tracks could have come in handy.

 

 

There are no provisions for express tracks. We did be lucky to even see the Second Avenue Subway at this rate. I might sound cruel but with the neighborhood up in arms and the the way it is I am seriously concerned. Also the Third Avenue Elevated was IRT not BMT/IND. It wouldn't have been able handle the BMT/IND trains. Not just that the Third Avenue Elevated wasn't built to be able to carry the weight of the current full length trains. It can be seen at the end of it's life only carrying three redbird cars per train. Retrofitting it would have been too expensive. The better idea would have been to save the Third Avenue Elevated completely, but people prevented that from happening. There is still the MNRR ROW, but there is no room for it. Also again with the Second Avenue Subway the way it is I doubt the the will ever see the Bronx. Most of the problems now will be solved when the Webster Avenue SBS comes online. That would be in 2 years from now.

[Wallyhorse]

Exactly:

 

The 3rd Avenue El would have had to undergo a complete rebuild by the 1970s and probably to handle BMT/IND sized cars and 600' trains, quite possibly as a four-tracked, double-decked line.(express on upper level, local on lower level) with some stations in lower Manhattan on the South Ferry branch (if the line had remained down there) relocated to accommodate the larger cars (and in a rebuild, South Ferry becoming the express branch with stations on the upper level), while the Park Row branch (which would likely have become the local branch on the lower level) would probably have in a rebuild also been extended to first the World Trade Center (probably terminating on Church Street between Liberty Place and Vesey) and as it was built, Battery Park City. A number of stations from the original 3rd Avenue El would probably have been eliminated in a total rebuild since the trains would have been considerably longer from their former counterparts (similar to what I wrote about in the past when I wrote my ideas for a rebuild), and if the line headed to the Bronx probably would have (as a BMT/IND line) probably been relocated to Concourse Yard.

 

That said, if THAT had been done, then we could have had a Bronx branch of the SAS that also would have been served by a Bronx branch of the 3rd Avenue El (with the Park Row/Battery Park City branch after 125th turning west and on new tracks running to Broadway-12th Avenue). Of course, the Park Row/Battery Park City branch would have had to have been rebuilt after 9/11 since there likely was no way those tracks would have survived the attacks.

 

Just my thoughts.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Wallyhorse

[Eric B]

If the 3rd Ave. el had been converted to BMT/IND like that, they probably would have used the opportunity to convert the Dual Contact lines (Jerome, Pelham), by connecting them, so they would use those yards.

[Roadcruiser1]

We should have had preserved our elevated system though. I am certain if it still existed today it would be a popular tourist attraction like the El in Chicago.

[VWM]

No express service is just going to screw the . At least there could be some <T> trains, express from 72 under (peak only)

As I said before, We need a 61 St station for Tram transfer instead of SRO M15+SBS+

[Brighton Express]

No express service is just going to screw the . At least there could be some <T> trains, express from 72 under (peak only)

As I said before, We need a 61 St station for Tram transfer instead of SRO M15+SBS+

 

 

YES. Finally someone agrees with me. You guys have no idea how crowded it gets on the at 125 St, or even 86 St if you know what I'm sayin. Local service only is not going to pull it off.

[S78 via Hylan]

Let's be glad if this project is ever completed before thinking about express service.

[Brighton Express]

We should have had preserved our elevated system though. I am certain if it still existed today it would be a popular tourist attraction like the El in Chicago.

 

 

Do you know the reason why they broke down the ELs in Manhattan? ELs take up a lot of space. Manhattan is currently over-populated with buildings in the city. An EL is just taking up space for buildings to be put in. Look at this valuable space being taken up. A hunk of EL gone makes quite some buildings. Plus, the MTA has pretty much all of the underground to build, as long as it doesn't hit pipes, or stuff like that.

 

 

 

Let's be glad if this project is ever completed before thinking about express service.

 

 

Amen. I hope it gets completed up to 125 St in our lifetime.

[Roadcruiser1]

No express service is just going to screw the . At least there could be some <T> trains, express from 72 under (peak only)

As I said before, We need a 61 St station for Tram transfer instead of SRO M15+SBS+

 

YES. Finally someone agrees with me. You guys have no idea how crowded it gets on the at 125 St, or even 86 St if you know what I'm sayin. Local service only is not going to pull it off.

 

Do you know the reason why they broke down the ELs in Manhattan? ELs take up a lot of space. Manhattan is currently over-populated with buildings in the city. An EL is just taking up space for buildings to be put in. Look at this valuable space being taken up. A hunk of EL gone makes quite some buildings. Plus, the MTA has pretty much all of the underground to build, as long as it doesn't hit pipes, or stuff like that.

 

 

 

The Second Avenue Subway will never need express service. The chances that it will run outside of Manhattan is slim since we are facing problems constructing it, and the second thing is the spacing. The Second Avenue Subway will have no local stops. It's spacing is similar to lines on the Washington Metro and Philadelphia's SEPTA. The neighboring Lexington Avenue Line also makes it redundant. The reason why the Canarsie Line is overcrowded is because it has no neighboring lines to take the loads off, but the Second Avenue Subway is different. The Lexington Avenue Line is nearby. Notice also there is no St. Mark's Place, or a 28th Street Station. These stations would exist on a normal four track line, but to save costs the Second Avenue Subway is two tracked, and doesn't have these stations. Therefore no express service will ever be needed.

 

The map will show the spacing.

 

 

Also elevated lines doesn't even run onto buildings. They only run on the street. Their pillars are on the street. They don't run into buildings. They don't even interfere with buildings. They are completely on the street. They might lower real estate values, but that is it. Elevated lines run above streets not houses so you are wrong. Tearing down an elevated line has nothing to do with allowing more houses to be built. They don't run anywhere on the city block. You are wrong. I also see you live in Virginia so I doubt you know what elevated line is like. I live near the West End Elevated. I know what they are like. You are wrong.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Roadcruiser1

[VWM]

so more or less the 2nd Avenue is a faster alternative tho the

[Threxx]

Also elevated lines doesn't even run onto buildings. They only run on the street. Their pillars are on the street. They don't run into buildings. They don't even interfere with buildings. They are completely on the street. They might lower real estate values, but that is it. Elevated lines run above streets not houses so you are wrong. Tearing down an elevated line has nothing to do with allowing more houses to be built. They don't run anywhere on the city block. You are wrong. I also see you live in Virginia so I doubt you know what elevated line is like. I live near the West End Elevated. I know what they are like. You are wrong.

 

 

You see, it's this kind of condescending language that gets you in trouble. You don't need to keep putting him down in this rant. Plus, the current HighLine goes through buildings, and it was once an el, what do you have to say for yourself?

 

I'm sorry, but every single person on this forum is tired of your constant, condescending opposition to others' ideas. Don't apologize. Don't do it, and we'll accept that as an apology.

Edited May 23, 2012 by ThrexxBus

[B3 Via Av U]

so more or less the 2nd Avenue is a faster alternative tho the

 

Essentialy, yes.

[Threxx]

The Second Avenue Subway will never need express service. The chances that it will run outside of Manhattan is slim since we are facing problems constructing it, and the second thing is the spacing. The Second Avenue Subway will have no local stops. It's spacing is similar to lines on the Washington Metro and Philadelphia's SEPTA. The neighboring Lexington Avenue Line also makes it redundant. The reason why the Canarsie Line is overcrowded is because it has no neighboring lines to take the loads off, but the Second Avenue Subway is different. The Lexington Avenue Line is nearby. Notice also there is no St. Mark's Place, or a 28th Street Station. These stations would exist on a normal four track line, but to save costs the Second Avenue Subway is two tracked, and doesn't have these stations. Therefore no express service will ever be needed.

 

 

Excuse me, do you even realize why the SAS is being built? It's to take the load off of the SAS. This super express isn't going to cut it. At the least, Phase 3 needs to be a four-tracked line with St. Marks Avenue & 28th Street stations. The current plan just isn't good enough to do much to take the load off of the Lex Avenue Line. The could be connected with the at 2nd Avenue and could run to Avenue X. That right there, would be a better plan than what is currently being proposed.

[B3 Via Av U]

Excuse me, do you even realize why the SAS is being built? It's to take the load off of the SAS. This super express isn't going to cut it. At the least, Phase 3 needs to be a four-tracked line with St. Marks Avenue & 28th Street stations. The current plan just isn't good enough to do much to take the load off of the Lex Avenue Line. The could be connected with the at 2nd Avenue and could run to Avenue X. That right there, would be a better plan than what is currently being proposed.

 

Nice going, Threxx. Roadcruiser, like, seriously?!? We are just trying to discuss the logical possibilities and ideas. Not being a moderator. Carry on.

You see, it's this kind of condescending language that gets you in trouble. You don't need to keep putting him down in this rant. Plus, the current HighLine goes through buildings, and it was once an el, what do you have to say for yourself?

 

I'm sorry, but every single person on this forum is tired of your constant, condescending opposition to others' ideas. Don't apologize. Don't do it, and we'll accept that as an apology.

 

EXACTLY. THANK YOU THREXX.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Brightonkid7

[VWM]

dont forget 61 St...

[B3 Via Av U]

dont forget 61 St...

 

I say add a station at 60th Street and provide a transfer to the so riders won't have to transfer to the and the to access the Lower East Side.

[Brighton Express]

It needs a middle track of some form to get form 72 St to 125 St. Add one stop in the middle, I could care less. It needs an Express in some form past 72 St. The will be relieved a bit, but there is still gonna be lots of traffic on this new subway, as people will want to use it as an alternative to the Lexington. Express would work.

[B3 Via Av U]

It needs a middle track of some form to get form 72 St to 125 St. Add one stop in the middle, I could care less. It needs an Express in some form past 72 St. The will be relieved a bit, but there is still gonna be lots of traffic on this new subway, as people will want to use it as an alternative to the Lexington. Express would work.

 

Rush hour peak direction express. During the AM rush goes express towards Hanover, PM rush goes express to 125.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Brightonkid7

[VWM]

I say add a station at 60th Street and provide a transfer to the so riders won't have to transfer to the and the to access the Lower East Side.

 

 

Subway Stations are fairly long, so it doesn't matter what you call it as long as it's in that area.

[Threxx]

It needs a middle track of some form to get form 72 St to 125 St. Add one stop in the middle, I could care less. It needs an Express in some form past 72 St. The will be relieved a bit, but there is still gonna be lots of traffic on this new subway, as people will want to use it as an alternative to the Lexington. Express would work.

 

 

Here's my plan:

 

Two lines would run on the SAS. A new & a .

 

The would run from Avenue X to 125th Street via local, with provisions for future expansion into the Bronx.

The would run from Hannover Sq to the Rockaways if the RoW gets reactivated, otherwise to 179th Street via local in Queens.

 

The following stations would be added:

 

St. Marks Pl

28th Street

48 Street (optional)

63 Street, transfer to at Lex Avenue-63rd Street.

 

Since Phase 1 is under construction, no center track would be added, but Phase 3 would be a 4 track trunk. The would run express and the would run local. In addition, the would run express in Brooklyn on Culver. Since a connection to 63rd is planned, all that would have to be built is the connection to Rutgers. The & would have direct access to a yard, which the currently does not have, and the cars needed are available. All that would increase are construction costs for Phase 3.

 

In my current idea, the express stops would be Houston St, 23rd Street, 42 Street-UN and 55th Street.

 

Some possible additions:

 

A new line, Euclid Avenue-Manhattan or the Bronx via Jay Street.

Edited May 23, 2012 by ThrexxBus

[Roadcruiser1]

I say add a station at 60th Street and provide a transfer to the so riders won't have to transfer to the and the to access the Lower East Side.

 

 

The switch to the 63rd Street Tunnel prevents that from happening. Along with the transfer to the idea.

 

I am not being mean here I am telling the truth. The can barely afford to complete this subway line, the neighborhood is up in arms, and the construction time is extremely long even for a 2 tracked line. Do you really think there would be express service here? I don't think it will happen. We will never live to see the Second Avenue Subway in the Bronx. Maybe Queens since it is hooked to the 63rd Street Tunnel, and maybe if it could be connected to the Rutgers Street Tunnel then we will see Brooklyn, but there is no way we will see the Second Avenue Subway in the Bronx because that would require new infrastructure. It would take a long time as well. I highly doubt the Second Avenue Subway will carry four tracks. Even if it's completed I have full doubt. They don't have the money and they don't have the room. Also the Second Avenue Subway doesn't need express tracks. The London Metro does well with 2 tracked lines, the Tokyo Metro does well with 2 tracked lines. Most of the new metro systems in China are 2 tracked. It doesn't make them inferior. New Yorkers are just used to a four track system because it was built like that. Nowhere else in the world will you find a 4 track or 6 track subway system except in NYC.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Roadcruiser1