Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[subwaykid256]

I have an Idea why not send the and to second Av and Have the and serve astoria

[CenSin]

I have an Idea why not send the and to second Av

 

You'd have to do some digging north of 57 Street–7 Avenue to connect the local tracks to the express tracks after the 59 Street spur goes underground.

 

and Have the and serve astoria

 

Looking at the layout of the tunnels and stations, it might prove quite difficult to connect the to the Astoria line from north of Court Square. You might have better luck branching the line from south of Court Square though.

[pjbr40]

there no way to get the to astoria. The is underground while the is above ground. Since both stop are in short distance how you gonna build the connection to get the up there while the 59street bridge is right next to it. Also include the El trains there as well.

[Brighton Express]

The only trains that have the ability to get to Astoria from their terminals are the I believe.

[Far Rock Depot]

You'd have to do some digging north of 57 Street–7 Avenue to connect the local tracks to the express tracks after the 59 Street spur goes underground.

 

 

No digging needed, Use the switch just outside of times square and have it skip 49th st.

 

and yes, the one section of already built tunnel in lower manhattan will not be used. Its under the foot of the MannyB. the original 1970s track plan had the SAS placed "scraping the walls" at Grand street providing an "across the platform" transfer. According to reports from early 2000s, that particular tunnel was not kept up. the current two proposals are:

 

Forsythe St (a new tunnel about 100 feet east, aboe the Jamaica-crystie cut)

Deep Chrystie (a new tunnel below the existing B/D tunnel)

[CenSin]

No digging needed, Use the switch just outside of times square and have it skip 49th st.

The issue is with all the switching. By not installing a switch north of 57 Street–7 Avenue, you essentially add a level junction to the line that ties up each and every express and local service.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

That's why I suggest running all Broadway Express trains to 2nd Avenue and running all Broadway Local trains to the 60th St Tunnel. By running both the N and the Q to 2nd Ave, you eliminate the time-consuming switching that is currently done in two locations on the Broadway Line (Prince and 34th) and you can run more trains per hour per line. Just resurrect the W and have it serve the Astoria Line once 2nd Ave opens.

[Eric B]

They're apparently looking into building a switch from local to express north of 57th, creating a flying junction. (Would be easy northbound, require more work southbound).

I sure hope they do.

[Grand Concourse]

That's why I suggest running all Broadway Express trains to 2nd Avenue and running all Broadway Local trains to the 60th St Tunnel. By running both the N and the Q to 2nd Ave, you eliminate the time-consuming switching that is currently done in two locations on the Broadway Line (Prince and 34th) and you can run more trains per hour per line. Just resurrect the W and have it serve the Astoria Line once 2nd Ave opens.

 

I don't think phase 1 on the SAS requires both expresses to up to 96th. What they could do is build tracks on the slope on the 'local' portion section b/w just north of the 57th/7th stop and just before the curve onto 63rd. That way both local and express trains can be split b/w Queens and Manhattan.

 

My idea would be:

96th/2nd-CI via Broadway express

Ditmars-CI via Broadway express*

71st/Continental-Whitehall via Broadway local

96th/2nd-95th/Bay Ridge via Broadway local

 

Because I still think the is more frequent/consistent than the is by itself. service (being a local) might not be as frequent/consistent and works better with the .

Edited April 23, 2012 by Grand Concourse

[Shortline Bus]

Replies in Red.

 

I don't think phase 1 on the SAS requires both expresses to up to 96th. What they could do is build tracks on the slope on the 'local' portion section b/w just north of the 57th/7th stop and just before the curve onto 63rd. That way both local and express trains can be split b/w Queens and Manhattan.

 

My idea would be:

96th/2nd-CI via Broadway express

Ditmars-CI via Broadway express*

71st/Continental-Whitehall via Broadway local

96th/2nd-95th/Bay Ridge via Broadway local

 

Because I still think the is more frequent/consistent than the is by itself. service (being a local) might not be as frequent/consistent and works better with the .

 

 

Not a bad idea. Issue Concourse why it's not likely to happen is fact a tons of riders including riders in the so called "Brooklyn Chinatown" use the to transfer to the Flushing Line. How do you address that Concourse?

 

That the reason back in the 1980's the and switched Queens terminals. What yards does the 96th & 2nd-Bay Ridge serve? It makes it diffcult for a direct service without backtracking.

 

®Ideally it should be shortned. The only way this works is for instance create a new Bay Ridge-Chambers Street line that runs 24/7 as the proposal does not work.

 

Just my takes Concourse.

[Far Rock Depot]

Shortline hit it right on the nose. Theres no yard for the W if that plan went into effect.

 

The flying junction, although i dont see it happening, is possible and logical. currently 2 tunnels(exp) extend north to serve 63rd st, but the local tunnels do currently extend north as part of some of the original BMT plans of the early 20th century. It would take less planning and digging, and time than the 63rd st/QBL connector. also, not much of an above ground impact assuming most of the work will be under the park before the tunnel turns east.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Riders from "Chinatown, Brooklyn" can't transfer from the N to the 7 at Times Square like so many other riders do? Yes it's a huge station with a lot of stairs and passageways. But it's not like they have to go on a long odyssey to make that transfer. And plenty of N riders from Brooklyn already change for the 7 at Times Sq.

 

If they do decide to put in switches north of 57th to allow Broadway Local trains access to 2nd Ave, then I'd be ok with sending the W up that way. It would be similar to the A/D and B/C merges at Columbus Circle.

Edited April 23, 2012 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Grand Concourse]

Exactly, it can be served by a split of local and express instead of sending both express trains up to 96th. Sure it's the UES, but it's still 3 stops, not really in need of that much service. imo.

 

Not a bad idea. Issue Concourse why it's not likely to happen is fact a tons of riders including riders in the so called "Brooklyn Chinatown" use the to transfer to the Flushing Line. How do you address that Concourse?

 

That the reason back in the 1980's the and switched Queens terminals. What yards does the 96th & 2nd-Bay Ridge serve? It makes it diffcult for a direct service without backtracking.

 

®Ideally it should be shortned. The only way this works is for instance create a new Bay Ridge-Chambers Street line that runs 24/7 as the proposal does not work.

 

Just my takes Concourse.

 

I don't see how swapping the would be that terrible. If riders stays on till QBP for the , then they can transfer at 42nd for the and get a seat much sooner.

 

The last version of the didn't exactly have a yard either as it still had to go thru the to get to CIY. The yard problem is not such a big deal as long as they still have some trains stored at City Hall and maybe enough space north of 96th for storing a couple of trains. If it bothers people that much, then fine, the can be a Manhattan only line and the stays as it was to Bay Ridge.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Grand Concourse

[Brighton Express]

If riders stays on till QBP for the , then they can transfer at 42nd for the and get a seat much sooner.

 

That ain't a short walk. And talk about the timing down at the .

[Grand Concourse]

is more frequent than the . If riders have to stay on the , avoiding taking the , then 42nd St is there for the direct transfer. It's one thing if the had better service, but since it doesn't, I still say the is a much better line to handle Astoria alone. Plus I don't see Astoria riders being happy with just the serving them up to Whitehall as those trains were empty by the time it got to Canal-City Hall.

 

It's also no accident people have called the : .ever .arely.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Grand Concourse

[Brighton Express]

is more frequent than the . If riders have to stay on the , avoiding taking the , then 42nd St is there for the direct transfer. It's one thing if the had better service, but since it doesn't, I still say the is a much better line to handle Astoria alone. Plus I don't see Astoria riders being happy with just the serving them up to Whitehall as those trains were empty by the time it got to Canal-City Hall.

 

It's also no accident people have called the : .ever .arely.

 

 

KAY CHIEF

[Grand Concourse]

KAY CHIEF

 

What's the point of this post? You wait a whole day just to post that, wtf? Edited April 25, 2012 by Grand Concourse

[CenSin]

then they can transfer at 42nd for the and get a seat much sooner.

I generally take the train all the way to Queensboro Plaza before transferring. I don't want the seat, but I know that:

1. The Broadway line gets to Queensboro Plaza faster by about a minute or two.

2. The transfer at Times Square is such a long walk that I would have missed 1~3 trains by the time I got to the platform. One of those missed trains will be an express train.

 

[Brighton Express]

I generally take the train all the way to Queensboro Plaza before transferring. I don't want the seat, but I know that:

1. The Broadway line gets to Queensboro Plaza faster by about a minute or two.

2. The transfer at Times Square is such a long walk that I would have missed 1~3 trains by the time I got to the platform. One of those missed trains will be an express train

 

 

Both of these things that you mentioned are very true. I wonder why I didn't think of Queensboro Plaza though.

[VWM]

The will have no stops between 72nd street and 55th in the 's plan for phase III

I think the needs to build a 61st street station in Phase III, and the can connect to the RI tram.

BTW the tram has extremely good ridership, even on weekends. They are ALWAYS packed.

Edited May 3, 2012 by VWM

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Exactly, it can be served by a split of local and express instead of sending both express trains up to 96th. Sure it's the UES, but it's still 3 stops, not really in need of that much service. imo.

I don't see how swapping the would be that terrible. If riders stays on till QBP for the , then they can transfer at 42nd for the and get a seat much sooner.

 

The last version of the didn't exactly have a yard either as it still had to go thru the to get to CIY. The yard problem is not such a big deal as long as they still have some trains stored at City Hall and maybe enough space north of 96th for storing a couple of trains. If it bothers people that much, then fine, the can be a Manhattan only line and the stays as it was to Bay Ridge.

 

Well if you realizied, the first and last Three Trains on the line start/end on Sea Beach Line when the operated. IIRC some turned into on an operators last run of the day, meaning for easier access to CI Yard. If anything, make it run to Bay Parkway via the

[Mysterious2train]

The will have no stops between 72nd street and 55th in the 's plan for phase III

I think the needs to build a 61st street station in Phase III, and the can connect to the RI tram.

BTW the tram has extremely good ridership, even on weekends. They are ALWAYS packed.

 

 

With only two tracks, the Second Avenue line is supposed to be a sort of "semi-express" - Notice how there's no stop between 72nd St and 86th St either.

[Grand Concourse]

Well if you realizied, the first and last Three Trains on the line start/end on Sea Beach Line when the operated. IIRC some turned into on an operators last run of the day, meaning for easier access to CI Yard. If anything, make it run to Bay Parkway via the

 

But that is just 3 trains. The rest, while at the end of the day could all be turned into trains, are still cut off from the yard. If trains are needed from the yard, the Bay Ridge line is not that far from CIY and there are some rush hour 's that runs thru Sea Beach from CIY. My whole point was to split the and make it a shorter and hopefully more reliable route while making the more than just a intra-Manhattan line.

 

Also I did point out in my final line that if people are so bothered by the southern terminal swap, then I would leave them alone.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Grand Concourse

[Brighton Express]

With only two tracks, the Second Avenue line is supposed to be a sort of "semi-express" - Notice how there's no stop between 72nd St and 86th St either.

 

 

If they were to add in more stops, they would surely need an Express. If anywhere, probably when the joins. There are no modern 3T Peak-Direction projects that have happened recently, all of them have either been 2T or 4T. A 4T where the joins could enable the to run Express north, and the Local.

 

If they decided however to keep the stops that the concept map shows, a 3T would do the job. I am not sure if they are making a yard for the subway, but a third track could come in handy for not only this, but all times peak direction Express, being in the morning, the comes on the Express towards Midtown, and in the afternoon/evening, it goes out of Midtown. It will be the 4th 3T in manhattan, the , , and holding the other 3.

[Wallyhorse]

®Ideally it should be shortned. The only way this works is for instance create a new Bay Ridge-Chambers Street line that runs 24/7 as the proposal does not work.

 

My plan for the to come back assumes two things:

 

1. The SAS is in full operation to at least 96th/2nd by then.

2. The LIRR Rockaway Branch is re-activated because the convention center will be built at Aqueduct.

 

In mine, the does go back to Astoria (and 24/7), but is also swapped with the on the Brooklyn end with the taking over the West End and the going to 95th Street. This gives the Coney Island Yard while the still has Concourse Yard.

 

The still goes to Astoria weekdays from 5:30 AM-10:00 PM and at other times goes to 96th-2nd Avenue with the .

 

The replaces the as the Broadway Local, running from Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park via QB and the LIRR connector.

 

The goes back to 71st-Continental at all times while the is also at least a 19/7 train there. To avoid rush-hour congestion, during those times and as needed otherwise, the and also are extended to 179th while the is express there during those times and the also goes back to being a 24/7 Express.

 

That is how I bring back the , but it again hinges on what happens with the Convention Center and possible re-activation of the LIRR branch.