Manhattan Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Cait Sith]

M22 extention to South ferry?

Smh.

The last thing the M22 needs is an extension. It had its service reduced on doomsday and it's never been reliable ever since.

 

 

That alone just had me facepalming....

 

What the M22 needs is some restructuring around the Lower Manhattan areas.

[Far Rock Depot]

That alone just had me facepalming....

 

What the M22 needs is some restructuring around the Lower Manhattan areas.

 

That route has been tweaked so many times over the years. And the current chambers st road work isn't helping either.

The service cuts made it worse.

One thing I would do is take it off of West St. In and out of battery Park City via Chambers.

[B35 via Church]

How the !*@# would extending the M22 to South ferry even work, if it has to serve battery park city & L.E.S......

[Astoria Line]

Who suggested that the M22 go to S Ferry? That's a fail. In any case, it would follow M20 route S. of chambers I guess, but then what is the point of the whole idea? It is so redundant

[engineerboy6561]

How about extending and beefing up the M98? I'd like to suggest extending it a bit on the south end down to Astor Pl/Cooper Union, making the Fort Washington service a rush-hour-only branch, and sending the main line up Broadway to 242 St? The new service would run 5AM-midnight on weekdays and 6AM-10PM on Saturdays, supplementing the M101 and providing a much faster ride between points on the East Side and Fort George.

 

The line would look like this: https://maps.google....266e1ebc6&msa=0

 

and it would stop at

 

Broadway/242 St

Broadway/238 St

Broadway/231 St

Broadway/225 St

Broadway/218 St

Broadway/Isham St

Broadway/Dyckman St

Broadway/Nagle Av

Broadway/187 St

Broadway/178 St SB (179 St/Broadway NB)

178 St/ Amsterdam Av SB (179 St/Amsterdam Av NB)

 

Then all current and former M98 stops to 34 St, then:

 

Park Av S/23 St

Broadway/14 St (4 Av/14 St NB)

8 St/Broadway (SB only)

8 St/Bowery (last stop SB, at M101/M102 stop), then looping around Cooper Union and laying over on 4 Av with the first stop on 4 Av/8 St SE corner.

 

During rush hours, bidirectional service would be provided to/from Ft Washington via the old M98 route.

 

The new routing would also make it feasible to discontinue weekday BxM1 service through Inwood, as folks there who desire East Side service would be able to get a comparably quick ride on the M98 at greater frequencies at less than half the fare.

Edited July 30, 2012 by engineerboy6561

[Threxx]

^I can see it...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

How about extending and beefing up the M98? I'd like to suggest extending it a bit on the south end down to Astor Pl/Cooper Union, making the Fort Washington service a rush-hour-only branch, and sending the main line up Broadway to 242 St? The new service would run 5AM-midnight on weekdays and 6AM-10PM on Saturdays, supplementing the M101 and providing a much faster ride between points on the East Side and Fort George.

 

The line would look like this: https://maps.google....266e1ebc6&msa=0

 

and it would stop at

 

Broadway/242 St

Broadway/238 St

Broadway/231 St

Broadway/225 St

Broadway/218 St

Broadway/Isham St

Broadway/Dyckman St

Broadway/Nagle Av

Broadway/187 St

Broadway/178 St SB (179 St/Broadway NB)

178 St/ Amsterdam Av SB (179 St/Amsterdam Av NB)

 

Then all current and former M98 stops to 34 St, then:

 

Park Av S/23 St

Broadway/14 St (4 Av/14 St NB)

8 St/Broadway (SB only)

8 St/Bowery (last stop SB, at M101/M102 stop), then looping around Cooper Union and laying over on 4 Av with the first stop on 4 Av/8 St SE corner.

 

During rush hours, bidirectional service would be provided to/from Ft Washington via the old M98 route.

 

The new routing would also make it feasible to discontinue weekday BxM1 service through Inwood, as folks there who desire East Side service would be able to get a comparably quick ride on the M98 at greater frequencies at less than half the fare.

 

How about not extending it into the Bronx, and terminate it at the current M100 terminal. And the M98 streamlined with the M101/102. I'm okay with the idea but would service alternate rush hours or all go to Fort Tyron

The M98 should IMO operate weekdays only but until 10 PM only in both directions.

[engineerboy6561]

How about not extending it into the Bronx, and terminate it at the current M100 terminal. And the M98 streamlined with the M101/102. I'm okay with the idea but would service alternate rush hours or all go to Fort Tyron

The M98 should IMO operate weekdays only but until 10 PM only in both directions.

 

 

The problem with using the M100 terminal for the M98 is that I rarely if ever see anyone use it; if it goes into the Bronx you now have a second direct connection between Washington Heights/Inwood and the shops around Target (as well as a brand new connection to the new BJ's that's supposed to go up on 238 St where Stella D'oro used to be) as well as a one-seat ride to Manhattan College, a direct connection to the Bx10 (and therefore a one-fare ride from all of Riverdale, some of Bedford Park, and most of Norwood), and a direct connection to Bee-Line buses. I'd like to see six days a week to start rather than five as well, especially since Saturday is a big shopping day.

 

As for rush hours, I'd run 5-7 minute headways on Lexington/3 Avs with buses alternating between Fort Washington and Inwood/Riverdale.

[Gorgor]

How about extending and beefing up the M98? I'd like to suggest extending it a bit on the south end down to Astor Pl/Cooper Union, making the Fort Washington service a rush-hour-only branch, and sending the main line up Broadway to 242 St? The new service would run 5AM-midnight on weekdays and 6AM-10PM on Saturdays, supplementing the M101 and providing a much faster ride between points on the East Side and Fort George.

 

The line would look like this: https://maps.google....266e1ebc6&msa=0

 

and it would stop at

 

Broadway/242 St

Broadway/238 St

Broadway/231 St

Broadway/225 St

Broadway/218 St

Broadway/Isham St

Broadway/Dyckman St

Broadway/Nagle Av

Broadway/187 St

Broadway/178 St SB (179 St/Broadway NB)

178 St/ Amsterdam Av SB (179 St/Amsterdam Av NB)

 

Then all current and former M98 stops to 34 St, then:

 

Park Av S/23 St

Broadway/14 St (4 Av/14 St NB)

8 St/Broadway (SB only)

8 St/Bowery (last stop SB, at M101/M102 stop), then looping around Cooper Union and laying over on 4 Av with the first stop on 4 Av/8 St SE corner.

 

During rush hours, bidirectional service would be provided to/from Ft Washington via the old M98 route.

 

The new routing would also make it feasible to discontinue weekday BxM1 service through Inwood, as folks there who desire East Side service would be able to get a comparably quick ride on the M98 at greater frequencies at less than half the fare.

 

 

The entire route you mentioned is served by the BxM1 in Inwood and the BxM3 in the Bronx.

[Threxx]

The entire route you mentioned is served by the BxM1 in Inwood and the BxM3 in the Bronx.

 

 

The point was to cut the BxM1 in Inwood....

[Gorgor]

The point was to cut the BxM1 in Inwood....

 

 

Oh sorry, I skimmed that post fast because I was in a rush.

 

Yes, I would be in favor of extending it up in Inwood, perhaps to the M100 terminal, but keep the bus in Manhattan. Riders along Broadway in the Bronx already have the BxM3 which provides much faster service.

 

Oh and there definitely needs to be an M98 extension on the southern end, at least back to its previous terminal by 34th Street.

[Threxx]

Oh sorry, I skimmed that post fast because I was in a rush.

 

Yes, I would be in favor of extending it up in Inwood, perhaps to the M100 terminal, but keep the bus in Manhattan. Riders along Broadway in the Bronx already have the BxM3 which provides much faster service.

 

Oh and there definitely needs to be an M98 extension on the southern end, at least back to its previous terminal by 34th Street.

 

 

He extended it to 14th Street....

[Gorgor]

He extended it to 14th Street....

 

 

He extended it to Astor Place, but I'm saying that the current M98 terminal at 68th Street is ridiculous. It should be extended further downtown, at least to 34th Street. Maybe even further south.

[engineerboy6561]

Oh sorry, I skimmed that post fast because I was in a rush.

 

Yes, I would be in favor of extending it up in Inwood, perhaps to the M100 terminal, but keep the bus in Manhattan. Riders along Broadway in the Bronx already have the BxM3 which provides much faster service.

 

Oh and there definitely needs to be an M98 extension on the southern end, at least back to its previous terminal by 34th Street.

 

 

Not exactly; the BxM3 makes no stops on Broadway south of 244 St; after that it makes one stop on Van Cortlandt Park S and Bailey Av and then runs on Sedgwick Av for the remainder of the Bronx portion; the M98 is basically covering the part of Broadway the BxM3 doesn't serve. I picked the routing I did in lower Manhattan to provide north-south service to Union Sq, to arrange for a common terminal between all the Lexington Av services, and to avoid hitting traffic on Bowery south of 23 St.

 

For you I have the new and improved BxM18 Current routing south of 57 St, then across on 57 St, up First (or down Second) with open-door stops at 57 St, 66 St, 72 St, 79 St, and 86 St. After 86 St, continue nonstop on First and Second to the Willis Av Bridge (northbound; take the Triboro to 2 Av headed southbound), and then current routing to 263 St (next stop is 230 St and Broadway.

 

Thus, the BxM18 serves people traveling between Riverdale and downtown Manhattan, people traveling between the UES/Yorkville and downtown Manhattan, and people traveling between Riverdale and the UES/Yorkville. Considering that the BxM18 is usually pretty dead, this should be a way of restoring UES express bus service that costs little to nothing (slight increase in travel time, maybe two or three new late-morning trips and a 7:45PM trip) but combines the ridership of both routes and brings in increased revenue.

Edited July 30, 2012 by engineerboy6561

[checkmatechamp13]

For you I have the new and improved BxM18 Current routing south of 57 St, then across on 57 St, up First (or down Second) with open-door stops at 57 St, 66 St, 72 St, 79 St, and 86 St. After 86 St, continue nonstop on First and Second to the Willis Av Bridge (northbound; take the Triboro to 2 Av headed southbound), and then current routing to 263 St (next stop is 230 St and Broadway.

 

Thus, the BxM18 serves people traveling between Riverdale and downtown Manhattan, people traveling between the UES/Yorkville and downtown Manhattan, and people traveling between Riverdale and the UES/Yorkville. Considering that the BxM18 is usually pretty dead, this should be a way of restoring UES express bus service that costs little to nothing (slight increase in travel time, maybe two or three new late-morning trips and a 7:45PM trip) but combines the ridership of both routes and brings in increased revenue.

 

 

I think a certain Bronxite will be very upset that you're messing with his precious BxM18.

 

In any case, I think there might be the risk of having some standees between the UES & East Midtown, even if it's only for a few stops. Aside from that, the BxM18 doesn't serve the WFC the way the X90 did (unless you were to reroute it via the FDR Drive south of 23rd Street and have it take up a route Gorgor proposed a while back). But even then, it's taking an indirect route for UES riders (going to 5th Avenue and back), so I think you'd just be better off somehow bringing back the X90, either through basing it out of a Brooklyn depot & interlining it (which I still don't see how that wouldn't work), or reducing the headways or both.

[Threxx]

You can start some M15 SBS trips from 92nd/York, which can help to replace some X90 service... that won't be a all fix, but until money can be allocated to have a dedicated X90, this could work...

[engineerboy6561]

I think a certain Bronxite will be very upset that you're messing with his precious BxM18.

 

In any case, I think there might be the risk of having some standees between the UES & East Midtown, even if it's only for a few stops. Aside from that, the BxM18 doesn't serve the WFC the way the X90 did (unless you were to reroute it via the FDR Drive south of 23rd Street and have it take up a route Gorgor proposed a while back). But even then, it's taking an indirect route for UES riders (going to 5th Avenue and back), so I think you'd just be better off somehow bringing back the X90, either through basing it out of a Brooklyn depot & interlining it (which I still don't see how that wouldn't work), or reducing the headways or both.

 

 

Bringing it back straight or reducing the headways is an option; the problem with interlining the X90 as I see it is this:

 

If the X90 ran middays instead of rush hours that would be fine, because buses would come into the city in the morning, do a few trips on the X90 during the day, and then head back out in revenue service; as things stand I'm not sure how interlining would work because we already need all buses on deck during rush. The other problem is that the only express bus lines that could be interlined to serve Yorkville are Bronx buses, which are all out of Bus (at least if you want efficiency). The Brooklyn, Queens, and SI buses all enter Manhattan south of the UES, so during the AM you'd be running full buses from the outer boroughs to lower Manhattan, then sending them practically empty up to Yorkville as X90s, then back down again mostly full, and then empty from the financial district to the outer boroughs. It would be the same way during the PM rush, only in reverse.

 

I chose the BxM18 because it runs in the right direction (southbound buses run Bronx->UES->downtown rather than (other borough)->downtown->UES) and because it's mostly empty anyway, so even if it gets significant ridership from Yorkville you won't be crowding out Riverdale riders.

Edited July 30, 2012 by engineerboy6561

[Cait Sith]

You can start some M15 SBS trips from 92nd/York, which can help to replace some X90 service... that won't be a all fix, but until money can be allocated to have a dedicated X90, this could work...

 

 

You forget there are no off-board payment machines along 92nd and/or York. Making M15 SBSs start from there wont work. There are some M15 SBSs that start and end at 96th.

[Threxx]

You forget there are no off-board payment machines along 92nd and/or York. Making M15 SBSs start from there wont work. There are some M15 SBSs that start and end at 96th.

 

 

True. The X90 could probably interline with the M86, but that could wear down crosstown service.

[Cait Sith]

True. The X90 could probably interline with the M86, but that could wear down crosstown service.

 

 

Another problem, two different depots those two routes are based out of. You can't interline an express route with a local. It's express>express or local/limited>local/limited.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Cait Sith

[Threxx]

The X90 currently dosen't exist, so it has no depot, so that first argument can't be made. Secondly, interlining with a interboro route isn't feasible, and it can't go to a local only depot...

[Cait Sith]

The X90 currently dosen't exist, so it has no depot, so that first argument can't be made. Secondly, interlining with a interboro route isn't feasible, and it can't go to a local only depot...

 

 

The argument can be made because if that route were to come back, it'd go RIGHT BACK to Quill depot because of their maintenance! And since its a Manhattan based Express route, it'll go right back to where it started. The x90 technically doesn't interline but there are runs where operators switch buses to go to local runs. You keep thinking about this as a simple thing but it's not.....

 

Secondary, the x90 was only a rush-hour route. The only reason it doesn't interline with any other route is simple. It's start/end points are at the World Financial Center and Yorkville. However, there are runs from the x90 the operators are on that also puts them back on local routes so its not a total loss...

 

There are no other express routes that goes to Yorkville. 100th Street is pretty much packed to the brim to a certain degree and Manhattanville....forget it.

 

Third and foremost, if you send that x90 to a depot that doesn't involve Manhattan and has to interline with other routes within the city, those Yorkville folks will eat you alive. They wanted their own buses and superb maintenance hence why MQ operated the x90 for so long.

 

You really have to stop thinking about the simplistic stuff and start thinking realistically. Don't play games with routes you are not well-versed with....I'm just sayin'!

Edited July 30, 2012 by Cait Sith

[Gorgor]

You could easily interline the X90 with any of the express buses that terminate on East 57th Street. In the AM, after a Manhattan bound express bus from Staten Island or a BM1-BM5 terminates along East 57th Street, continue along, left onto 1st Avenue, right onto 92nd Street and make the first pick up stop at York. In the PM, start a new bus as an X90 from the World Financial Center, then after it makes its last stop on 91st Street and York, send it around 1st Avenue to 92nd Street, back down York, right onto 57th Street and start it as a Staten Island or BM1-5 express bus.

 

I don't get what the issue is here. This is almost exactly like how they interlined the X29/X25. The northern terminal for the X90 and the SI and BM1-5 express buses are only two miles apart, which should take no longer than 10-15 minutes to go between.

 

If anything's unclear then tell me and I'll be more than happy to create a map for what I'm saying.

[Cait Sith]

You could easily interline the X90 with any of the express buses that terminate on East 57th Street. In the AM, after a Manhattan bound express bus from Staten Island or a BM1-BM5 terminates along East 57th Street, continue along, left onto 1st Avenue, right onto 92nd Street and make the first pick up stop at York. In the PM, start a new bus as an X90 from the World Financial Center, then after it makes its last stop on 91st Street and York, send it around 1st Avenue to 92nd Street, back down York, right onto 57th Street and start it as a Staten Island or BM1-5 express bus.

 

I don't get what the issue is here. This is almost exactly like how they interlined the X29/X25. The northern terminal for the X90 and the SI and BM1-5 express buses are only two miles apart, which should take no longer than 10-15 minutes to go between.

 

If anything's unclear then tell me and I'll be more than happy to create a map for what I'm saying.

 

 

The thing is, the x25 and the x29 were based out of Ulmer Park so they were able to interline. The x90 was based out of Michael J. Quill and had no other interlining routes for it unless an operator had runs from EXP to LCL. If the x90 was based out of a Staten Island or a Brooklyn Depot, it'd be able to interline with said routes.

[Gorgor]

The thing is, the x25 and the x29 were based out of Ulmer Park so they were able to interline. The x90 was based out of Michael J. Quill and had no other interlining routes for it unless an operator had runs from EXP to LCL. If the x90 was based out of a Staten Island or a Brooklyn Depot, it'd be able to interline with said routes.

 

 

...

 

So then base it out of a Staten Island or Brooklyn depot. What's the problem?