Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[Around the Horn]

I consider the b32 worth extending to Astoria via 21st street or Vernon Blvd. The Long Island City-Court Square and Astoria areas are growing and service around those areas need to be changed in someway to address that.

That sounds nice but isn't really needed. The Q103 already covers Vernon Blvd and the Q69 and Q100 already serve 21 Street.

 

 

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[Future ENY OP]

That sounds nice but isn't really needed. The Q103 already covers Vernon Blvd and the Q69 and Q100 already serve 21 Street.

 

 

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Can we leave the B32 as is please. The service is meant for the purposes of Williamsburg waterfront and Greenpoint. There isn't a need to have the B32 to shadow the Q103, Q69 or any of the forementioned buses that are in Long Island City. LIC is a growing community which the needs to explore more with expanding service on the Q103 or perhaps the Q104 which serves a good chunk of LIC.

[Q43LTD]

The 103 has weekend service. What can be done to the 104?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The 103 has weekend service. What can be done to the 104?

Perhaps improve the evening frequencies. I'd rather discuss this in the Queens thread though, in order to not completely derail the topic (I believe it's an interesting route, and also would like to hear other proposals, if any).

Edited July 20, 2016 by BM5 via WOODHAVEN BL

[Future ENY OP]

Now that you have the B46 SBS, I would say yes. I would consider extending the B46 SBS to Woodhull Hospital and also terminate the B46 Local at DeKalb at all times (the B47 covers Broadway between Reid/Malcolm X and Woodhull). The B32 would then cover the B46 route between Washington Plaza and Woodhull, with headways increased to every 15 minutes. (This is also in conjunction with earlier proposals I have made to give the B32 its own unique market in Queens separate from the B62.) The B46 SBS would have two stops added: Myrtle Avenue and Woodhull. Late nights when the B32 doesn't run, the B47 would be extended to Washington Plaza.

- NO for B47 extension to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. It was tried out in the beginning when the B78 got trounced out. However, if you want the 47 to go Bridge Plaza. B78 MUST be back in the picture to work the southern end of the route.

 

- NO B46SBS extension to Bridge Plaza, WoodHull. Too much traffic on Broadway. Plus not enough terminal space on Marcus Garvey // WoodHull for the 46 to terminate.

[Q43LTD]

Perhaps improve the evening frequencies. I'd rather discuss this in the Queens thread though, in order to not completely derail the topic (I believe it's an interesting route, and also would like to hear other proposals, if any).

True. I'd like to know the number of customers that are travelling between Astoria and Williamsburg where a new route or an extension of a current route is warranted

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Can we leave the B32 as is please. The service is meant for the purposes of Williamsburg waterfront and Greenpoint. There isn't a need to have the B32 to shadow the Q103, Q69 or any of the forementioned buses that are in Long Island City. LIC is a growing community which the needs to explore more with expanding service on the Q103 or perhaps the Q104 which serves a good chunk of LIC.

 

Don't worry, the B32 will probably be scrapped once the BQX is built.

[B35 via Church]

The 103 has weekend service. What can be done to the 104?

Perhaps improve the evening frequencies. I'd rather discuss this in the Queens thread though, in order to not completely derail the topic (I believe it's an interesting route, and also would like to hear other proposals, if any).

True. I'd like to know the number of customers that are travelling between Astoria and Williamsburg where a new route or an extension of a current route is warranted

An extension to Roosevelt Island.

 

The Q102 is a sorely antiquated route (worse than the B24 IMO, and that's saying a lot), and the Q104 terminates in the middle of nothing.... Matter fact, buses don't even end on 11th & 34th - Soon as buses make that left off Vernon & onto 34th, buses end right there... Some b/o's even end along Vernon itself (before the turn onto 34th)....

[Jdog14]

Don't worry, the B32 will probably be scrapped once the BQX is built.

 

There will still need to be some iteration of it in bus form when there is heavy snowfall. 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

There will still need to be some iteration of it in bus form when there is heavy snowfall. 

 

If there's a heavy snowfall and the BQX is suspended, there would be bus shuttles along the whole length. Otherwise, keeping a bus just in case of a snowflake sounds silly.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Gotham Bus Co.

[Q43LTD]

An extension to Roosevelt Island.

 

The Q102 is a sorely antiquated route (worse than the B24 IMO, and that's saying a lot), and the Q104 terminates in the middle of nothing.... Matter fact, buses don't even end on 11th & 34th - Soon as buses make that left off Vernon & onto 34th, buses end right there... Some b/o's even end along Vernon itself (before the turn onto 34th)....

I'd have to say that it's better than sending it up to Astoria PJ's where the Q18/19/102/103 terminate. (I don't think there's room for a fifth route) Now I'm inclined to remove the 102 from RI and end it at QBP

[darrianQ60]

 

I was thinking of terminating the current b24 route and have it run from bed stuy wodhull hospital to laguardia airport. The starting point would be at flushing and broadway

NORTHBOUND

. Make a right turn on flushing ave

. Left turn on bushwick ave eventually turns in woodpoint rd

.left turn on front st

.right turn on graham ave

.right turn on meeker ave

.left turn on mcguniess blvd

.right turn on greenpoint ave eventually turns into roosevelt ave

.left turn on 61 st

.right turn on broadway

.left turn onto the brooklyn queens expressway to grand central

SOUTHBOUND

.enter grandcentral to brooklyn queens expressway

.get off at broadway

.left turn on 61 st

.right turn on roosevelt which eventually turns into greenpoint ave

.left on mcguniess blvd which eventually turns into humboldt st

.right turn on broadway

 

I didnt work out the limited stop yet but its just a thought i dont know if its good idea but just my thoughts

[Q43LTD]

How about no?

[Future ENY OP]

How about no?

That's the same thing I say.

[darrianQ60]

Whats wrong with having a brooklyn bus to laguardia airport the b15 goes to jfk and it takes nearly 2 hours this would take less time than 2 hours and there would finally have a bus that runs on bushwick ave and mcguniess blvd there is no bus that runs on neither ave i dont see whats so bad it can be limited unlike the b15

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Whats wrong with having a brooklyn bus to laguardia airport the b15 goes to jfk and it takes nearly 2 hours this would take less time than 2 hours and there would finally have a bus that runs on bushwick ave and mcguniess blvd there is no bus that runs on neither ave i dont see whats so bad it can be limited unlike the b15

There isn't a strong demand in the first place. Second, this route would be prone to intense delays.

[darrianQ60]

There was no big demand for the b32 and i see delay happening with this route but alot of routes have delays there is no prefect route the b15 is long as ever and takes long and it still makes alot of money the q60 has delays still make money and those route are nearly 2 hours theres alot of route with delays and still make good ridership

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

There was no big demand for the b32 and i see delay happening with this route but alot of routes have delays there is no prefect route the b15 is long as ever and takes long and it still makes alot of money the q60 has delays still make money and those route are nearly 2 hours theres alot of route with delays and still make good ridership

 

The B32 is pretty reliable itself, the only time it really gets screwed up is when they have to open up the Pulaski Bridge (which happens from time to time). As for its ridership, well, it's not stellar, so I'll give you that (but it is growing so maybe something may happen, or not). However, just because the MTA created such a route, doesn't mean that it is okay to make (even longer) routes that will get little ridership; that would be extremely wasteful. There's no heavily demand for any service on those areas. McGuiness is only three blocks from Manhattan at most, where one has the B43 and the B62, to transfer to the B57. McGuiness is also filled more with gas station and auto repair stores, which bus riders are most likely not trying to get to. Neighborhood routes to the airport tend to not, each for different reasons. Look at ridership on the Q48 and the Q72 in LGA. The B15 and Q10 have a lot of airport workers who use the route. 

 

Second, the B15 gets a lot of ridership, but that doesn't mean it makes a lot of money. There's a lot of people transferring from other routes and the subway, so you don't make money from that, because they don't pay an extra fare. Additionally, most routes in the system do not cover 100% of their costs (the B15 included). There's only a select few routes which cover their fares completely. 

 

Third, just because a route is long, does not always mean more ridership. You're increasing the catchment area, but not necessarily the ridership. This is especially true as a good portion of the route is on the highway on this route. Nobody gets on, so whatever you have before you get on the highway is what you get until you get off the expressway. Such route cost more to operate. Look at the B37. While ridership is decent, you do not see buses crushloaded. You may see it with the nearby B63 though, because it serves more locations that people want (and also more people at the same time). The average weekday ridership on the B37 is 2,208, whereas the B74 (which is the shortest route from one end to another) has more than double the ridership, at 4,436 riders. Total ridership is higher as well, with the B37 getting about 667-668K riders a year, while the B74 gets more than 1.3 million riders. Population density and dependence on public transit also plays a crucial role in determining what routes will get more ridership than others. 

Edited September 21, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[Around the Horn]

The B63 is also more frequent. I'm willing to wait 10 minutes for a 63. I'm not willing to wait 20-30 minutes for a 37.

[darrianQ60]

I can agree with you in some points i was just trying to see if something can done about b24 the route just doesnt make much sesne any ideas

[Future ENY OP]

I can agree with you in some points i was just trying to see if something can done about b24 the route just doesnt make much sesne any ideas

The B24 is simply a short route. Why turn a short route to an longer route plaguing it with extreme delays. Clear reminder this is Grand Avenue. When the B24 was at Fresh Pond the performance wasn't stellar. However, it did the job. I'm not too sure how it's doing at Grand Avenue. But one must say that the B24 should only be an Greenpoint-Williamsburg-Long Island City route only.

 

Not enough demand to have it extend to Astoria and LGA.

You have the Q100, Q101, Q102, Q103, Q104 to take care of those loads. Those 5 routes I've mentioned can do WAY better than a B24 which the route is about less than 10 miles long to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza.

[B35 via Church]

Whats wrong with having a brooklyn bus to laguardia airport the b15 goes to jfk and it takes nearly 2 hours this would take less time than 2 hours and there would finally have a bus that runs on bushwick ave and mcguniess blvd there is no bus that runs on neither ave i dont see whats so bad it can be limited unlike the b15

There was no big demand for the b32 and i see delay happening with this route but alot of routes have delays there is no prefect route the b15 is long as ever and takes long and it still makes alot of money the q60 has delays still make money and those route are nearly 2 hours theres alot of route with delays and still make good ridership

None of this means that a Brooklyn-LGA route would flourish.....

 

By this logic, I can suggest a Tottenville - Wakefield local bus route & paint this picture that it's plausible.... Forgot to mention, it can be limited, unlike the B15!

 

You know, because there is no perfect route...

You know, because a lot of routes have delays....

You know, because there are routes that are delayed that still have good ridership...

 

Totally ignoring WHY those routes HAVE good ridership in the first place.....

 

* The B15 serves a very dense part of Brooklyn - It would still get good ridership, even if if didn't serve JFK....

Guaranteed that the B15 short turns would still rank higher (in terms of overall usage) than the vast majority of routes in our system, let alone just the borough of Brooklyn....You are not going to have anyone believe that a Brooklyn-LGA route would rake in similar usage levels as the B15 shorties.... No way, no how...

 

* The Q60 is (or at least should be) more self-explanatory; it's not even funny how many elderly people live along/around the route, simply refusing to take the subway because *it's faster & it's there*... Not to mention how HIGHLY commercial QB itself is (which of course, younger folks utilize the route for as well).... What's funny about the Q60 is, for all the ridership it garners, turnover isn't really all that high on that route - esp. regarding bus-to-bus commutes.... This means that folks are generally boarding along the route & are taking the route to a specific destination along (or a short walk to/from) the route (this includes the Manhattan usage btw; Q60 to M15 usage is low).... Note all the high rise residences in the Forest Hills, Rego Park, and Woodside.... A Brooklyn-LGA route will NOT come close to mirroring the usage levels of the Q60....

 

You chose two of the worst routes in the system to try to make a comparative talking point out of..... Too easy.

 

And another thing... For whatever reason, you're conflating the revenue a route brings in, to the ridership it pulls in.... Sorry man, but you are fooling yourself if you believe that a route going:

 

From Woodhull, to Flushing (av), right turn on flushing ave, Left turn on bushwick ave (eventually turns in woodpoint rd), left turn on front st, right turn on graham ave, right turn on meeker ave, left turn on mcguniess blvd, right turn on greenpoint ave (eventually turns into roosevelt ave), left turn on 61 st, right turn on broadway, left turn onto the brooklyn queens expressway to grand central

 

...is going to be this revenue generator/self-starter.... You may as well tell us that the Q47 garners a lot of revenue out of LGA !!!

I honestly don't see much of anyone taking this route to/from anywhere b/w 61st/Broadway & Woodhull on the route...

 

Lastly, in one of your points, you mention the B32.... Yeah, there wasn't a big demand for it, but to bring that up in conjunction with a Brooklyn-LGA route is NOT helping your argument/cause either.... You bring it up as if the B32 is warranted in the system.... You're comparing a route that would serve an airport, to a route like the B32???? What?

[B35 via Church]

The B32 is pretty reliable itself, the only time it really gets screwed up is when they have to open up the Pulaski Bridge (which happens from time to time). As for its ridership, well, it's not stellar, so I'll give you that (but it is growing so maybe something may happen, or not). However, just because the MTA created such a route, doesn't mean that it is okay to make (even longer) routes that will get little ridership; that would be extremely wasteful. There's no heavily demand for any service on those areas. McGuiness is only three blocks from Manhattan at most, where one has the B43 and the B62, to transfer to the B57. McGuiness is also filled more with gas station and auto repair stores, which bus riders are most likely not trying to get to. Neighborhood routes to the airport tend to not, each for different reasons. Look at ridership on the Q48 and the Q72 in LGA. The B15 and Q10 have a lot of airport workers who use the route. 

 

Second, the B15 gets a lot of ridership, but that doesn't mean it makes a lot of money. There's a lot of people transferring from other routes and the subway, so you don't make money from that, because they don't pay an extra fare. Additionally, most routes in the system do not cover 100% of their costs (the B15 included). There's only a select few routes which cover their fares completely. 

 

Third, just because a route is long, does not always mean more ridership. You're increasing the catchment area, but not necessarily the ridership. This is especially true as a good portion of the route is on the highway on this route. Nobody gets on, so whatever you have before you get on the highway is what you get until you get off the expressway. Such route cost more to operate. Look at the B37. While ridership is decent, you do not see buses crushloaded. You may see it with the nearby B63 though, because it serves more locations that people want (and also more people at the same time). The average weekday ridership on the B37 is 2,208, whereas the B74 (which is the shortest route from one end to another) has more than double the ridership, at 4,436 riders. Total ridership is higher as well, with the B37 getting about 667-668K riders a year, while the B74 gets more than 1.3 million riders. Population density and dependence on public transit also plays a crucial role in determining what routes will get more ridership than others. 

His point is that, because a route like the B32 exists, so should a Brooklyn-LGA route - to debunk the point regarding demand....

 

As for your point about the B32, I have to disagree with one facet of it.... Although it does contribute to delays, the opening of the Pulaski is rare, compared to another section of the route that commonly contributes to (the increase of) waiting times (aside from the 1/2 hour headway the route has, to boot) - and that is the Kent/Wythe section of the route.... And it is only going to get worse as that part of Brooklyn develops.... Taxi's & delivery vans plague that part of the route (it's not as bad as the route I'm about to mention, but what goes on is comparable to it, and that's the M8).... Forgot to mention those movie trucks that park along Wythe, moreso than Kent.... Lot of small scale films are shot around the riverfront section of Williamsburg - I was even asked to be IN one, back around July, as I got off the SB B32 @ Grand a couple mos. ago.....

 

I can agree with you in some points i was just trying to see if something can done about b24 the route just doesnt make much sesne any ideas

Yeah, split the thing & have another route serve the other spur....

 

My suggestion to this has long been to have the B24 only serve the Greenpoint av stretch & to have (at least 1/2 the trips of) the B48 extended to Sunnyside....

 

This part is separate from the B24, but seeing how the B48 is these days, I wouldn't have every B48 starting from Prospect Park either... The demand is for the B43 over the B48 over there & it didn't help that the MTA cut ALL trips back to Fulton/Franklin a couple yrs ago, affecting the amt. of usage the B48 once had out of Lefferts Gdns....

 

The B24 is simply a short route. Why turn a short route to an longer route plaguing it with extreme delays. Clear reminder this is Grand Avenue. When the B24 was at Fresh Pond the performance wasn't stellar. However, it did the job. I'm not too sure how it's doing at Grand Avenue. But one must say that the B24 should only be an Greenpoint-Williamsburg-Long Island City route only.

 

Not enough demand to have it extend to Astoria and LGA.

You have the Q100, Q101, Q102, Q103, Q104 to take care of those loads. Those 5 routes I've mentioned can do WAY better than a B24 which the route is about less than 10 miles long to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza.

You mean Sunnyside; the B24 never serves LIC... Anyway, I'd say the current B24 is actually doing better at Grand av; seems to run like clockwork... I think the route should be split up, instead of extending both ends of the Greenpoint av spur....

 

As for his suggestion, he's not having it serve Astoria..... He has the route running between Woodhull & Woodside, then going straight to LGA via the BQE & the GCP like the Q70 does.... What I find hilarious is the comparison to the B15 - as if East Williamsburg; Bushwick av area is as live/populous as any area that the B15 travels through before getting to JFK.....

 

In any event, here's his suggestion mapped on google....

DarrianQ60's B24 Woodhull - LGA suggestion

[DaTransitMan4608]

I'm gonna drop my 2 cents in. His (Darrian's) B24 could actually work because the ridership could come from an unlikely source if advertised properly. The yuppies.

 

Think about it, how many of those transplants living in Williamsburg and Greenpoint are gonna want to take the subway -> Q70 to get to LGA when they wanna return home? It may not see B15 or Q10 type ridership but it could do well enough.

 

 

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[B35 via Church]

I'm gonna drop my 2 cents in. His (Darrian's) B24 could actually work because the ridership could come from an unlikely source if advertised properly. The yuppies.

 

Think about it, how many of those transplants living in Williamsburg and Greenpoint are gonna want to take the subway -> Q70 to get to LGA when they wanna return home? It may not see B15 or Q10 type ridership but it could do well enough.

What yuppies are you even referring to?

 

On the Brooklyn end, Williamsburg & East Williamsburg are riddled with hipsters... On the Queens end, Sunnyside is Woodside light - both of which are heavily diverse, working class areas..... We're not talking about Park Slope or UES/UWS with any of those 4 areas that said B24 would travel through.....

 

If you meant hipsters, well consider that these are the same hipster transplants that are contributing to declining bus ridership in this city.....