Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[bobtehpanda]

I'm gonna drop my 2 cents in. His (Darrian's) B24 could actually work because the ridership could come from an unlikely source if advertised properly. The yuppies.

 

Think about it, how many of those transplants living in Williamsburg and Greenpoint are gonna want to take the subway -> Q70 to get to LGA when they wanna return home? It may not see B15 or Q10 type ridership but it could do well enough.

 

 

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How many of them take a bus instead of an Uber? No one wants to do any kind of mass transit trip with luggage, it's a PITA.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Just wondering do you guys think there is enough ridership for the BM routes to have a sunday schedule?

[IAlam]

Just wondering do you guys think there is enough ridership for the BM routes to have a sunday schedule?

The saturday schedule is already generous and they don't even make that many trips. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Just wondering do you guys think there is enough ridership for the BM routes to have a sunday schedule?

 

 

The saturday schedule is already generous and they don't even make that many trips. 

 

Exactly.

 

Before, I used to think that there should be some sunday service, perhaps having the BM1 make all stops on hourly headways. Now, I would have to rethink that. Ridership on the BM1, BM2, and BM3 are just not the same as the old Command days, and overall ridership on all routes have steadily declined over the years. 

 

Quite Frankly, I think that there should be other methods to speed up the trip for riders, specifically rush hours, since they are extremely slow. In some areas, taking the subway is faster than taking the express bus.

 

============================================================================================================

 

Now, it has been mentioned before to move the BM's to Beverely, but many times taking multiple BM's, there's been a few riders getting off Cortelyou, and more often than not heading to points south of Cortelyou Road. However, traffic wise, it would help, as Cortelyou Road is closer to the train station.

 

I've mentioned it before, but there should be some real SX buses in the AM and PM . The BM1 and BM3 have the higher ridership levels of the three Ocean Avenue routes, and are the longest as well. The BM1 is frequent enough to have a reduction in service levels and still be "attractive" enough to ride. Essentially, the BM1 would run express from Ocean Avenue and Avenue K (after coming from Mill Basin), to either Downtown, or Midtown. I guess the designations can be broken down into individual numbers. So the BM11 would be the Midtown Super Express, and the BM21 would be the Downtown Super Express. Below would be a sample schedule of what I'm talking about:

 

 

 

 

BM11: Midtown Super Express

From Avenue K/Ocean Avenue (AM): 6:33, 6:53, 7:13, 7:33, 7:53, 8:13, 8:33 (2 less buses than traditional AM)

From 57 Street (PM): 3:30 PM, 4:00 PM, 4:25 PM, 4:50 PM, 5:10 PM, 5:30 PM, 5:55 PM, 6:20 PM (2 less than traditional PM)

 

BM21: Downtown Super Express

From Avenue K/Ocean Avenue (AM): 6:23, 6:43, 7:03, 7:23, 7:43, 8:03, 8:23 (1 less bus than traditional AM)

From Downtown (PM): 4:10 PM, 4:40 PM, 5:00 PM, 5:20 PM, 5:40 PM, 6:10 PM, 6:40 PM (2 less buses than traditional PM)

 

 

 

 

The routing would take Ocean Parkway between Avenue K and the Prospect Entrance (NB). Southbound buses would stop at Avenue J and Ocean Avenue, since you cannot turn from Ocean Parkway to Avenue K going south (only at Avenue J). That would also mean that no PM bus gets off at 10 Avenue, and rather stays on Ocean Parkway.

 

While there is a decrease compared to the old schedule, the riders along Avenue K that will now only take the BM11/BM21 will rise (instead of using either BM1 or BM4). However the decrease in interchangeable riders (basically riders north of Avenue K) is far greater.

 

Now, I've only previously mentioned that the BM1 should do this, but now I feel that the BM3 should also do this, because it is also a pretty lengthy route, and it would make the commutes faster for riders who rely on it south of Avenue K. It's less frequent than the BM1 but I think it can be done. Below is a sample schedule of what I'm talking about

 

 

 

 

BM13 Midtown Super Express

From Avenue K/Ocean Avenue (AM): 7:06, 7:26, 7:46, 8:06, 8:26, 8:46 (no change)

From 57 Street (PM): 3:45, 4:13, 4:38, 5:00, 5:20, 5:43, 6:07 (no change)

 

BM23 Downtown Super Express

From Avenue K/Ocean Avenue (AM): 7:13, 7:43, 8:13, 8:43 (no change)

From Downtown (PM): 4:30 PM, 5:00 PM, 5:25 PM, 5:55 PM, 6:25 PM (no change)

 

 

 

 

 

So what does that mean for Ocean Avenue?

 

Well, the BM4 would be the only bus serving Ocean Avenue during those times. As a result, it would receive a slight boost to accomodate the extra riders. Below is a sample schedule for the BM4 bus:

 

 

 

 

BM4 Midtown Only Service

From Ocean Avenue/Avenue K: 6:53 AM, 7:08 AM, 7:23 AM, 7:38 AM, 7:53 AM, 8:08 AM (2 more buses compared to traditional AM)

From 57 Street: 3:40 PM, 4:00 PM, 4:20 PM, 4:40 PM, 5:00 PM, 5:20 PM, 5:40 PM, 6:01 PM (2 more buses compared to traditional PM)

 

BM4 Downtown Only Service

From Ocean Avenue/Avenue K: 6:58 AM, 7:18 AM, 7:38 AM, 7:58 AM, 8:25 AM (1 more bus compared to traditional AM)

From Downtown: 4:08 PM, 4:28 PM, 4:48 PM, 5:08 PM, 5:28 PM, 5:48 PM, 6:08 PM (2 more buses compared to traditional PM)

 

 

[Eric B]

Beverley has a train station as well.

 

I don't think they would allow buses to go that far on Ocean Parkway. Beverley is just one black, and I hope they wouldn't rule that out. (They're on the parkway Ave. X and beyond, but that area seems different, like with the hospital and the highrises. I don't think they want them between Church and X. But the one block to Beverley shouldn't be a problem. But having to get off way back at 10th Av and navigate down McDonald and the zigzag across Church, then to Cortelyou, and then what they did with the BM 1 and 2 going the other way, is just ridiculous. Just use Beverley straight across, both ways).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just wondering do you guys think there is enough ridership for the BM routes to have a sunday schedule?

I use the BM3 on weekends, along with the BM1 and BM4 at times and as much as I would like Sunday service, the ridership isn't there. The reduction in ridership is due to changing demographics. The main riders on Saturdays on the BM3 are the elderly and people shopping. The BM1 would be a candidate but even there you have changing demographics along with the very expensive areas like Bergen Beach and Mill Basin being more car centric, so those folks are mainly using the BM1 during the week. The BM3 in particular has seen many of the people that would use it move away. Those folks remember when the subway was horrible. Gentrification in a lot of Brooklyn will continue to lead to lower bus ridership (both local and express). The X27 and X28 will hold on for now. Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights are still old school where many native New Yorkers remain and they are expensive, so those people will use the express bus. Similar demographics that you find on Staten Island....

 

I always thought that the BM3 could get riders from Manhattan Beach since it is quite affluent in parts with million+ dollar homes like Mill Basin, but those folks are also too affluent to be seen on any public transit. The focus down there is driving expensive European cars (Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Maserati and Audi are the usual cars riding down Emmons Avenue coming from Manhattan Beach.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Around the Horn]

Now, it has been mentioned before to move the BM's to Beverely, but many times taking multiple BM's, there's been a few riders getting off Cortelyou, and more often than not heading to points south of Cortelyou Road. However, traffic wise, it would help, as Cortelyou Road is closer to the train station.

 

I've mentioned it before, but there should be some real SX buses in the AM and PM . The BM1 and BM3 have the higher ridership levels of the three Ocean Avenue routes, and are the longest as well. The BM1 is frequent enough to have a reduction in service levels and still be "attractive" enough to ride. Essentially, the BM1 would run express from Ocean Avenue and Avenue K (after coming from Mill Basin), to either Downtown, or Midtown. I guess the designations can be broken down into individual numbers. So the BM11 would be the Midtown Super Express, and the BM21 would be the Downtown Super Express. Below would be a sample schedule of what I'm talking about:

 

 

 

 

BM11: Midtown Super Express

From Avenue K/Ocean Avenue (AM): 6:33, 6:53, 7:13, 7:33, 7:53, 8:13, 8:33 (2 less buses than traditional AM)

From 57 Street (PM): 3:30 PM, 4:00 PM, 4:25 PM, 4:50 PM, 5:10 PM, 5:30 PM, 5:55 PM, 6:20 PM (2 less than traditional PM)

 

BM21: Downtown Super Express

From Avenue K/Ocean Avenue (AM): 6:23, 6:43, 7:03, 7:23, 7:43, 8:03, 8:23 (1 less bus than traditional AM)

From Downtown (PM): 4:10 PM, 4:40 PM, 5:00 PM, 5:20 PM, 5:40 PM, 6:10 PM, 6:40 PM (2 less buses than traditional PM)

 

 

 

 

The routing would take Ocean Parkway between Avenue K and the Prospect Entrance (NB). Southbound buses would stop at Avenue J and Ocean Avenue, since you cannot turn from Ocean Parkway to Avenue K going south (only at Avenue J). That would also mean that no PM bus gets off at 10 Avenue, and rather stays on Ocean Parkway.

 

While there is a decrease compared to the old schedule, the riders along Avenue K that will now only take the BM11/BM21 will rise (instead of using either BM1 or BM4). However the decrease in interchangeable riders (basically riders north of Avenue K) is far greater.

 

Now, I've only previously mentioned that the BM1 should do this, but now I feel that the BM3 should also do this, because it is also a pretty lengthy route, and it would make the commutes faster for riders who rely on it south of Avenue K. It's less frequent than the BM1 but I think it can be done. Below is a sample schedule of what I'm talking about

 

 

 

 

BM13 Midtown Super Express

From Avenue K/Ocean Avenue (AM): 7:06, 7:26, 7:46, 8:06, 8:26, 8:46 (no change)

From 57 Street (PM): 3:45, 4:13, 4:38, 5:00, 5:20, 5:43, 6:07 (no change)

 

BM23 Downtown Super Express

From Avenue K/Ocean Avenue (AM): 7:13, 7:43, 8:13, 8:43 (no change)

From Downtown (PM): 4:30 PM, 5:00 PM, 5:25 PM, 5:55 PM, 6:25 PM (no change)

 

 

 

 

 

So you want to run the BM11/21 and BM13/23 during rush hours and the BM1 and BM3 during non rush hours?

 

(In other words, BM1 and BM3 won't operate in the peak direction rush hours?)

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

So you want to run the BM11/21 and BM13/23 during rush hours and the BM1 and BM3 during non rush hours?

 

(In other words, BM1 and BM3 won't operate in the peak direction rush hours?)

Yes.

 

The schedule itself also makes it more attractive to take a bus from those points to Midtown, as it's relatively frequent (every 10-15 minutes) during the height of the rush. Some BM4 riders may actually switch to the BM3 (those who live around the area of Batchelder St).

Beverley has a train station as well.

 

I don't think they would allow buses to go that far on Ocean Parkway. Beverley is just one black, and I hope they wouldn't rule that out. (They're on the parkway Ave. X and beyond, but that area seems different, like with the hospital and the highrises. I don't think they want them between Church and X. But the one block to Beverley shouldn't be a problem. But having to get off way back at 10th Av and navigate down McDonald and the zigzag across Church, then to Cortelyou, and then what they did with the BM 1 and 2 going the other way, is just ridiculous. Just use Beverley straight across, both ways).

Beverely Road has a train station, but the area around it isn't as commercial as Cortelyou Road.

 

The B9 uses Ocean Parkway (although for a block). I don't see why they can't make a provision for buses to use Ocean Parkway in it's entirety if they aren't allowed to).

[Around the Horn]

The B9 uses Ocean Parkway (although for a block). I don't see why they can't make a provision for buses to use Ocean Parkway in it's entirety if they aren't allowed to).

 

Technically the B9 uses the Ocean Parkway service road. Not sure if that makes much of a difference...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Technically the B9 uses the Ocean Parkway service road. Not sure if that makes much of a difference...

Well, the buses turning from Avenue K would use the service road. However, now that I see that they it wouldn't be able to merge onto the Prospect ever (there's no merge from the "service road" to the main road). I would change the northbound routing to be the same as the Southbound routing. BM11/BM13/BM21/BM23 buses would make a stop at Avenue J/Ocean Avenue (at the current B6/B11 stop), and would make the Avenue K/Ocean Avenue stop on Ocean Avenue/Avenue K instead (like the BM1 & BM3).

 

EDIT: So now there is another problem, which is the Brighton Line. The only crossings are at Avenue K and Avenue J before hitting Foster, but the clearances are 10' 8'' and 10' 10'' respectively, while the MCI's are over 11'. Avenue L has a 12' 6'' clearance, but it's not worth to back-track buses (even though it's one block) in order to do that routing. So I guess, NB buses can go on Ocean, then make a left on Beverely, and then get on Ocean Parkway at Beverely Road (they would go non-stop north of Avenue J on Ocean Avenue). SB buses would get off Ocean Parkway at Beverely Road, then make a right on Ocean, and make no stops north of Avenue J).

Edited October 1, 2016 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[Eric B]

Beverely Road has a train station, but the area around it isn't as commercial as Cortelyou Road.

 

The B9 uses Ocean Parkway (although for a block). I don't see why they can't make a provision for buses to use Ocean Parkway in it's entirety if they aren't allowed to).

I don't understand why the area has to be commercial. That's precisely what makes it so slow to travel through in the first place (and the street, for its busy-ness seeming to be even narrower than Beverley).

 

Generally, they don't want big commercial vehicles on parkways. While a "parkway" usually refers to the semi-controlled access roads with the lower underpasses, it seems both Ocean and Eastern Parkways are treated the same. They are basically scenic, and they don't want them clogged with big trucks and buses and other commercial traffic. So they allow some buses on south of Ave. X (and I'm trying to remember if they stay on mostly the service lane. I think at least one of them may switch over to the main road, for the purpose of making the left turn, either direction).

 

So again, it's just a matter of them opening up another allowance for that first block to the north. But I doubt they'll ever allow the whole length of it.

[B35 via Church]

Sunday service? I'd worry more about it's declining weekday service - regardless of what roads the BM's travel along.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Sunday service? I'd worry more about it's declining weekday service - regardless of what roads the BM's travel along.....

Agreed... The service levels during the week are alarming.  I take the BM3 during the week here and there... The last time I got a 09:20 out of Sheepshead Bay (morning trip)... The bus wasn't crowded at all... 

[Armandito]

Brooklyn could use a second bus route to JFK. It would start in Bay Ridge and travel via Fort Hamilton Parkway, Church Avenue, Linden Boulevard, and Conduit Avenue, replacing the B35 Limited east of McDonald Avenue (the B35 would become a local-only route along its entire length from Sunset Park to Brownsville). It would make only the following stops:

 

On 4th Avenue:

Shore Road

 

On Fort Hamilton Parkway:

95th Street

86th Street

Bay Ridge Parkway

Bay Ridge Avenue

62nd Street

60th Street

New Utrecht Avenue

49th/50th Streets

39th Street

 

On 39th Street:

12th Avenue

 

On Church Avenue/Hegeman Avenue:

All current B35 Limited stops

 

On New Lots Avenue:

Van Sinderen Avenue (westbound)

 

On Linden Boulevard:

Van Sinderen Avenue (eastbound)

Pennsylvania Avenue

Fountain Avenue

Eldert Lane

 

On Lefferts Boulevard:

Lefferts Boulevard AirTrain station

 

Then all stops within JFK Airport

 

Link to map: http://mapq.st/2dmOr5A

Edited October 19, 2016 by lara8710

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Brooklyn could use a second bus route to JFK. It would start in Bay Ridge and travel via Fort Hamilton Parkway, Church Avenue, Linden Boulevard, and Conduit Avenue, replacing the B35 Limited east of McDonald Avenue (the B35 would become a local-only route along its entire length from Sunset Park to Brownsville). It would make only the following stops:

 

On 4th Avenue:

Shore Road

 

On Fort Hamilton Parkway:

95th Street

86th Street

Bay Ridge Parkway

Bay Ridge Avenue

62nd Street

60th Street

New Utrecht Avenue

49th/50th Streets

39th Street

 

On 39th Street:

12th Avenue

 

On Church Avenue/Hegeman Avenue:

All current B35 Limited stops

 

On New Lots Avenue:

Van Sinderen Avenue (westbound)

 

On Linden Boulevard:

Van Sinderen Avenue (eastbound)

Pennsylvania Avenue

Fountain Avenue

Eldert Lane

 

On Lefferts Boulevard:

Lefferts Boulevard AirTrain station

 

Then all stops within JFK Airport

 

Link to map: http://mapq.st/2dmOr5A

I don't understand the reasoning of it starting in Bay Ridge??? 

[Fresh Pond]

I don't understand the reasoning of it starting in Bay Ridge???

Pretty sure he posted this a while back lol

[Fresh Pond]

I don't understand the reasoning of it starting in Bay Ridge???

Pretty sure he posted this a while back lol

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Pretty sure he posted this a while back lol

News to me, but even so, he should explain how he came up with such a routing.  

[Around the Horn]

I don't understand the reasoning of it starting in Bay Ridge??? 

 

Southern Brooklyn has some of the longest travel times in the borough to JFK. Starting in Bay Ridge would allow people taking the B1, B16, B70, S53, S79 and S93 to access a direct bus to the airport.

 

I think a similar route has been in the planning stages at the DOT, for several years now.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Southern Brooklyn has some of the longest travel times in the borough to JFK. Starting in Bay Ridge would allow people taking the B1, B16, B70, S53, S79 and S93 to access a direct bus to the airport.

 

I think a similar route has been in the planning stages at the DOT, for several years now.

But for that you can just cab it.  From most of South Brooklyn it's roughly $20-30 dollars.  That's what I did when traveling to and from JFK and flying to Europe.  I mean seriously if you can't afford a taxi to JFK and you're flying with all of those bags, there's a problem.  But in any event, I do agree that there needs to be an East-West style SBS or limited, though I wouldn't have it starting on Shore Road of all places. lol Seriously, those folks are driving or taking the express bus.  Very few using the local buses like that.  Most of Shore Road has always been expensive.  I know since I considered moving back there myself from Staten Island years ago.  I would start it on 4th and 86th so it connects with the B1, and the S53 and S79 and run it along 86th street making limited stops and using artics.  A JFK route would have to make fewer stops in order to be attractive.  No one will want to sit on a bus making that many stops.  

Edited October 19, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Around the Horn]

 But in any event, I do agree that there needs to be an East-West style SBS or limited, though I wouldn't have it starting on Shore Road of all places. lol Seriously, those folks are driving or taking the express bus.  Very few using the local buses like that.  Most of Shore Road has always been expensive.  I know since I considered moving back there myself from Staten Island years ago.  I would start it on 4th and 86th so it connects with the B1, and the S53 and S79 and run it along 86th street making limited stops and using artics.  A JFK route would have to make fewer stops in order to be attractive.  No one will want to sit on a bus making that many stops.  

 

I dont agree with starting it at Shore Road either. It should, as you say, start at 4th and 86th and it also shouldn't be making so many stops on Fort Hamilton Pkwy either.

Brooklyn could use a second bus route to JFK. It would start in Bay Ridge and travel via Fort Hamilton Parkway, Church Avenue, Linden Boulevard, and Conduit Avenue, replacing the B35 Limited east of McDonald Avenue (the B35 would become a local-only route along its entire length from Sunset Park to Brownsville). It would make only the following stops:

 

On 4th Avenue:

Shore Road

 

On Fort Hamilton Parkway:

95th Street

86th Street

Bay Ridge Parkway

Bay Ridge Avenue

62nd Street

60th Street

New Utrecht Avenue

49th/50th Streets

39th Street

 

On 39th Street:

12th Avenue

 

On Church Avenue/Hegeman Avenue:

All current B35 Limited stops

 

On New Lots Avenue:

Van Sinderen Avenue (westbound)

 

On Linden Boulevard:

Van Sinderen Avenue (eastbound)

Pennsylvania Avenue

Fountain Avenue

Eldert Lane

 

On Lefferts Boulevard:

Lefferts Boulevard AirTrain station

 

Then all stops within JFK Airport

 

Link to map: http://mapq.st/2dmOr5A

 

I'd put this route almost entirely on Linden Blvd and avoid Church altogether if possible. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I dont agree with starting it at Shore Road either. It should, as you say, start at 4th and 86th and it also shouldn't be making so many stops on Fort Hamilton Pkwy either.

 

I'd put this route almost entirely on Linden Blvd and avoid Church altogether if possible. 

Fort Hamilton Parkway is like the worst place to run it.  It's mainly residential and won't attract as much ridership.  86th street is more centrally located with more transportation connections.

[Around the Horn]

Fort Hamilton Parkway is like the worst place to run it.  It's mainly residential and won't attract as much ridership.  86th street is more centrally located with more transportation connections.

 

You virtually have to take Fort Hamilton Parkway to get to Caton Av and Linden Blvd.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You virtually have to take Fort Hamilton Parkway to get to Caton Av and Linden Blvd.

We're likely talking about two different things at this point.  I haven't given a JFK route much thought in terms of the routing aside from starting it at 4th and 86th.  I think I was referring to the idea of having a East-West SBS or limited stop bus along 86th street, which is a separate need of South Brooklyn, as the B1 is far too slow.  A JFK route would either have to be some sort of SBS with very few stops similar to the Q70SBS service.

[Around the Horn]

We're likely talking about two different things at this point.  I haven't given a JFK route much thought in terms of the routing aside from starting it at 4th and 86th.  I think I was referring to the idea of having a East-West SBS or limited stop bus along 86th street, which is a separate need of South Brooklyn, as the B1 is far too slow.  A JFK route would either have to be some sort of SBS with very few stops similar to the Q70SBS service.

 

AH okay. I would make that a separate route from the JFK one.

 

As for the Bay Ridge-JFK route, Ft Hamilton Parkway to Caton Av to Linden Blvd is the most straightforward routing because Linden Blvd on the eastern end connects with Conduit Av and the B15. Then you would follow that into JFK.