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alekr

"Lessons Learned" After The DeKalb Fire

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Yesterday it was pure chaos for those poor straphangers in downtown Brooklyn. Here is some lessons that the MTA need to learn:

 

-Announce to the riders what is actually happening

 

-Give alternative routes not telling them using the affected lines should be posted on the site. Example "Customers are adviced to use 2/3/4/5 lines to/from Manhattan.

 

-Post realtime status on the site

 

-Posting clear messages not like trains are terminating at 57th,34th street, and Canal seems confusing to me

 

Hope it will not be like yesterday when the MTA messed up with the communication

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with the 57 street, 34 street, canal and whitehall seem confusing but it was the only way to make the turnaround easier for them to spread out all 3 lines.

 

Dont forget it was a last minute diversion, so the (MTA) did their best they could on turn around but i noticed by reading where train terminate need to be more specific in direction wise to get around the cripple area.

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The MTA needs to learn to make riders more aware. What about huge fonts and red letters.

 

And what about a clear plan, The (R) on Culver and that stuff. You can't have (R) train terminating at multiple places.

 

The MTA can't use mumbo-jumbo Wallyhorse ideas...

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Sometimes announcing to riders causes more problems...AND delays because:

A) most people don't pay attention

B) most people want tailored reroute instructions. Everyone wants to go up to a c/r asking about their stop right after someone asked about the same stop, ornaments stop next to it. In other words, everyone wants to be lead by hand

C) its rush hour. Not just any rush hour, but a new york rush hour. Rerouting hundreds of trains requires a lot of work during the busiest part of the day.

 

Everyone wants to complain that passengers aren't informed enough. Any MTA employee here can tell you, THEY themselves sometimes aren't told what's going on, just what to do. If they get a call on the radio to discharge early, that's their job. Everything basically becomes a need to know basis.

 

And when your trying to reroute the biggest underground railroad during the biggest rush hour on the planet the "wallyhorse" ideas are all you got.

Edited by Harry
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My replies in teal blue:

Yesterday it was pure chaos for those poor straphangers in downtown Brooklyn. Here is some lessons that the MTA need to learn:

 

-Announce to the riders what is actually happening

The problem is that many stations don't have public address systems. I expect that the MTA did make announcements in stations that do have them; I've experienced that several times (during other incidents).

 

-Give alternative routes not telling them using the affected lines should be posted on the site. Example "Customers are adviced to use 2/3/4/5 lines to/from Manhattan.

That's true, but I think it's pretty obvious that people should use other nearby subway lines when they hear that the (B)(D)(N)(Q)(R) is messed up. Yes, the MTA should've done a better job with this, but I don't think that this inconvenienced people very much.

 

-Post realtime status on the site

I thought they did that. The problem was that their service alert was full of typos and errors, not that there wasn't one.

 

-Posting clear messages not like trains are terminating at 57th,34th street, and Canal seems confusing to me

Well, trains were terminating at 57th, 34th, and Canal Sts. They couldn't have terminated every (N), (Q), and (R) train at a single station because it can't handle the capacity. I don't really see what else they could've said.

Hope it will not be like yesterday when the MTA messed up with the communication

 

I think the real problem is that, as I said, the online service alert was full of typos and slight errors (see the "Unplanned Service Changes" thread and you'll know what I mean). Edited by TheSubwayStation
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It was really dumb of the (MTA) to rerouted the (F) via the (G) between Queens Plaza and Bergen Street with no stopping, transfer, and connection at Jay Street-MetroTech. The only thing that was supposed to be suspended are the lines that stop or pass by DeKalb Avenue ((B)(D)(N)(Q)(R)). Don't even know where in the blue hell did the (MTA) come from with the (F) reroute, considering that it won't even stop at Jay Street-MetroTech because that's where the (G) doesn't serve of course....lol

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Guest Lance

Brooklyn-bound F trains were running via the G line because the D trains were running via the F line, as per this post. It had less to do with helping customers and more with limiting the amount of trains running down 6th Avenue.

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We need more independent tunnels to southern and southeastern Brooklyn. We have the Culver line running separately from the BMT lines to Coney Island, but the IRT Brooklyn lines don't extend south enough ((2) and (5) to Sheepshead Bay to partially compensate for the (B) and (Q)), and the only lines that can reach Coney Island have to pass through Dekalb Avenue and/or come from 6 Avenue.

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Sometimes announcing to riders causes more problems...AND delays because:

A) most people don't pay attention

 

That's a major problem right there. People can't listen to instructions from personel or comprehend with a subway system they are obligated to have knowledge on as New Yorkers. Do don't have to be a hardcore enthusiast to read up on transit issues once in a while instead of being led blind like lemmings over a cliff like some psuedo-sosphicated people we encounter every day against New Yorkers with actual transit sense who are just trying to get home from work, school, a date, etc..

Edited by realizm
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We must understand that these are not planned service changes, so the reroutes are not planned in advance! It's not as easy as just plugging in reroutes because it is unplanned and happening during rush hour instead of the weekend. Even under the best of circumstances it would take a little bit of time to find alternate routes/plans for the lines affected.

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That's exactly what contingency plans are for.

 

For example, the MTA should have a plan in advance for what happens if West 4 St is closed. Or Herald Sq. Or Dekalb Av. Not necessarily extremely detailed, but it shouldn't be improvised.

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Times like these makes me enjoy the "What if" thread. It's a good example of what dispatchers have to go thru on the fly especially during rush hour. They're incharge of keeping trains moving. customer service is in charge of informing the passengers. The chain of communication cannot keep up with the fast pace of NYC especially commuting. Even in a not-as-frequent section of the system. Perfect example: a train gets stalled at B44 still due to mechanical issues. I'll get the email right when that train corrects its issues and continue on its way. (actually happened a few times in the last few months). It may seem quick and easy to just blame the MTA and say they need to step their game up, but in the last few years they have. They just can't have real time info throughout the system until all of it gets upgraded, which is going to take decades.

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Times like these makes me enjoy the "What if" thread. It's a good example of what dispatchers have to go thru on the fly especially during rush hour. They're incharge of keeping trains moving. customer service is in charge of informing the passengers. The chain of communication cannot keep up with the fast pace of NYC especially commuting. Even in a not-as-frequent section of the system. Perfect example: a train gets stalled at B44 still due to mechanical issues. I'll get the email right when that train corrects its issues and continue on its way. (actually happened a few times in the last few months). It may seem quick and easy to just blame the MTA and say they need to step their game up, but in the last few years they have. They just can't have real time info throughout the system until all of it gets upgraded, which is going to take decades.

 

 

Here you go bruther.

 

(B) 2 Av to Bedford Park Blvd (6 Av/CPW/Grand CC Local)

(D) 34 St to 205 St (6 Av/CPW/Grand CC Express)

(D) Pacific St to Coney Island (4 Av Express/West End Local)

(F) NORMAL SERVICE

(M) Metro Av to Chambers St/Broad St (Nassau St Local)

(N) Whitehall St to Astoria Ditmars (Broadway/Astoria Local)

(N) Pacific St to Coney Island (4 Av/Sea Beach Local)

(Q) 34 St to Astoria Ditmars (Broadway Express/Astoria Local)

(Q) Atlantic Av to Coney Island (Brighton Local)

(R) 71 Av to Whitehall St (Queens Blvd/Broadway Local)

(R) 36 St to 95 St (4 Av Local)

 

NOTE

(B) [sOUTHBOUND SELECT] Bedford Park Blvd to Lefferts Blvd (Grand CC/CPW/8 Av/Fulton St/Rockaway Local)

(D) [sOUTHBOUND SELECT] 205 St to Av X/Coney Island (Grand CC/CPW/Viaduct/PS/Culver Express/6 Av Local)

(F) [sOUTHBOUND SELECT] 179 St to Kings Highway/Coney Island (Queens Blvd Express/Crosstown/Viaduct/PS/Culver Local)

(Q) [sOUTHBOUND SELECT] Astoria Ditmars to Canal St (Astoria Local/Broadway Express)

Edited by Brighton Express
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I was stuck on the R train in the tunnel by 57th st/7th Ave stop when this happened. Funny was that the conductor didn't realize he still had the announcement button keyed and we all heard the radio traffic from the rail control center from his radio for a good 20 mins. He was told to proceed to Whitehall on all clear signals and wait at the station for further instructions. I knew what was going on. I guest he was new on the job because twice he accidently turned off the lights on the train. Reminded me of the redbirds when going through switches...

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Here you go bruther.

 

(B) 2 Av to Bedford Park Blvd (6 Av/CPW/Grand CC Local)

(D) 34 St to 205 St (6 Av/CPW/Grand CC Express)

(D) Pacific St to Coney Island (4 Av Express/West End Local)

(F) NORMAL SERVICE

(M) Metro Av to Chambers St/Broad St (Nassau St Local)

(N) Whitehall St to Astoria Ditmars (Broadway/Astoria Local)

(N) Pacific St to Coney Island (4 Av/Sea Beach Local)

(Q) 34 St to Astoria Ditmars (Broadway/Astoria Local)

(Q) Atlantic Av to Coney Island (Brighton Local)

(R) 71 Av to Whitehall St (Queens Blvd/Broadway Local)

(R) 36 St to 95 St (4 Av Local)

 

NOTE

(B) [sOUTHBOUND SELECT] Bedford Park Blvd to Lefferts Blvd (Grand CC/CPW/8 Av/Fulton St/Rockaway Local)

(D) [sOUTHBOUND SELECT] 205 St to Av X/Coney Island (Grand CC/CPW/Viaduct/PS/Culver Express/6 Av Local)

(F) [sOUTHBOUND SELECT] 179 St to Kings Highway/Coney Island (Queens Blvd Express/Crosstown/Viaduct/PS/Culver Local)

(Q) [sOUTHBOUND SELECT] Astoria Ditmars to Canal St (Astoria Local/Broadway Express)

 

 

 

All of the first things you posted happened thats how they did it With the exception of the Mikeys 99.9% of us went through..

Edited by RTOMan
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We need more independent tunnels to southern and southeastern Brooklyn. We have the Culver line running separately from the BMT lines to Coney Island, but the IRT Brooklyn lines don't extend south enough ( (2) and (5) to Sheepshead Bay to partially compensate for the (B) and (Q)), and the only lines that can reach Coney Island have to pass through Dekalb Avenue and/or come from 6 Avenue.

 

 

A little O/T, but there will be a B44 SBS for that and I have good reasons to believe it has potential, although not as much as a Nostrand Ave subway extension

 

It would be an awful lot less convenient for people who live west of Bedford Ave south of Brooklyn College than a Nostrand Ave subway extension, but if an emergency situation such as that on Tuesday happens again, the 44 SBS will be a much more viable alternative than the 44 LT

 

Also a little O/T, but I think the Nostrand Ave subway should actually use Flatbush south of Junction instead of Nostrand since that part of Flatbush is further from the Brighton than Nostrand, Nostrand is going to have the 44 SBS, and I personally would not want to see an el over a narrow, residential block such as Nostrand. Flatbush is wider and more commercial, so far fewer residents would have to deal with the noise and the trains running right in front of their apartment windows

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Thread renamed to "Lessons Learned" After the Dekalb Fire.

 

Because we are no position to determine what lessons were learned at the (MTA) as the result of this fire.

 

I think we should leave the emergency planning for the professionals at the agency.

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Thread renamed to "Lessons Learned" After the Dekalb Fire.

 

Because we are no position to determine what lessons were learned at the (MTA) as the result of this fire.

 

I think we should leave the emergency planning for the professionals at the agency.

 

 

Now wheres the fun in that Harry? Some of the responses are most amusing! ;)

Edited by RTOMan

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The main thing I would have done:

 

Cut the (Q) to 300' trains and have it run from Coney Island-Botanic Garden (S) station in Brooklyn (terminating on the Prospect Park-bound track) while the regular (S) ran a single train from Botanic Garden-Franklin Avenue on the Franklin Avenue-Bound track. That would have allowed Brighton riders who normally transfer from the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Atlantic Avenue to instead make that transfer at Franklin Avenue and have from there a one-seat ride on the Brighton line instead of two. I believe Botanic Garden is a 300'+ station and that could be done for something like this.

Edited by Wallyhorse

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All of the first things you posted happened thats how they did it With the exception of the Mikeys 99.9% of us went through..

 

Ey and the (B) to Lefferts Blvd too. I don't think we will see that for a while, but it would have made sense to send some (B) trains over 8 Av Local.

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Ey and the (B) to Lefferts Blvd too. I don't think we will see that for a while, but it would have made sense to send some (B) trains over 8 Av Local.

 

And then? How would additional 8 Av local service help customers get to the BMT South Division lines? (Hint: the (S) would not be able to carry all those passengers).

 

The main thing I would have done:

 

Cut the (Q) to 300' trains and have it run from Coney Island-Botanic Garden (S) station in Brooklyn (terminating on the Prospect Park-bound track) while the regular (S) ran a single train from Botanic Garden-Franklin Avenue on the Franklin Avenue-Bound track. That would have allowed Brighton riders who normally transfer from the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Atlantic Avenue to instead make that transfer at Franklin Avenue and have from there a one-seat ride on the Brighton line instead of two. I believe Botanic Garden is a 300'+ station and that could be done for something like this.

 

NO.

 

Botanic Garden is a 150' station and cutting the trains would have taken more time than actually having them run in service.

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The main thing I would have done:

 

Cut the (Q) to 300' trains and have it run from Coney Island-Botanic Garden (S) station in Brooklyn (terminating on the Prospect Park-bound track) while the regular (S) ran a single train from Botanic Garden-Franklin Avenue on the Franklin Avenue-Bound track. That would have allowed Brighton riders who normally transfer from the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Atlantic Avenue to instead make that transfer at Franklin Avenue and have from there a one-seat ride on the Brighton line instead of two. I believe Botanic Garden is a 300'+ station and that could be done for something like this.

 

Brilliantly inefficient.

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The main thing I would have done:

 

Cut the (Q) to 300' trains and have it run from Coney Island-Botanic Garden (S) station in Brooklyn (terminating on the Prospect Park-bound track) while the regular (S) ran a single train from Botanic Garden-Franklin Avenue on the Franklin Avenue-Bound track. That would have allowed Brighton riders who normally transfer from the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Atlantic Avenue to instead make that transfer at Franklin Avenue and have from there a one-seat ride on the Brighton line instead of two. I believe Botanic Garden is a 300'+ station and that could be done for something like this.

 

ahhhhhhh.gif

The MTA didn't have time to split the trains. Why can't you ever try to make service as SIMPLE and LOGICAL as possible, so that passengers won't get confused?

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