How to alleviate overcrowding on the Lex lines with enhanced bus service

[Threxx]

While this isn't the current plan, let's go back a few decades to the ideas of the IND Second System and see how it would have worked:

 

The SAS would have had lines coming from Brooklyn and Queens, going through the Houston Street tunnel to 2nd Avenue. The Utica Avenue line would have taken the pressure off of the B46 and the train at Utica by providing another connection to the West Side.

 

That's one example right there. People will use the , and it will be more than anyone can imagine.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While this isn't the current plan, let's go back a few decades to the ideas of the IND Second System and see how it would have worked:

 

The SAS would have had lines coming from Brooklyn and Queens, going through the Houston Street tunnel to 2nd Avenue. The Utica Avenue line would have taken the pressure off of the B46 and the train at Utica by providing another connection to the West Side.

 

That's one example right there. People will use the , and it will be more than anyone can imagine.

 

 

Well that's the main thing... The won't be completely finished... It will alleviate some crowding but not for those who truly need the Lex. Ave lines.

[Gorgor]

I find it hilarious that you guys actually believe that the will become a reality in our lifetime. The to 96th should be completed by the end of this year had the MTA stuck to their schedule, but it's been constantly delayed and probably won't be finished by 2020.

 

The to 96th will alleviate congestion on the enough so that people actually have personal space while standing, as there are tons of riders coming to/from the Upper East Side. 77th Street is the #1 most used station only serviced by one line, and you should see how bad the line for an eastbound M79 and M86 is at Lex. The will connect those going from the Upper East Side to Central and West Midtown.

 

You people need to realize that giving the M101 SBS won't magically clear the traffic for the bus. Midtown gridlock alone will render it useless; just look at how badly buses bunch up already.

[AndrewJC]

Aside from buses being significantly slower than the subway, they also have much lower capacity. Attracting hundreds of subway riders to the bus wouldn't even make a measurable dent in subway loading, but it would increase bus operating costs significantly.

[realizm]

The to 96th will alleviate congestion on the enough so that people actually have personal space while standing, as there are tons of riders coming to/from the Upper East Side. 77th Street is the #1 most used station only serviced by one line, and you should see how bad the line for an eastbound M79 and M86 is at Lex. The will connect those going from the Upper East Side to Central and West Midtown.

 

 

 

While I agree with you on that, I'm skeptical about how much of an improvement the new line will bring as far as relief from overcrowding on the 4 and 5 lex Ave express routes particularly as there is no thru-boro extensions into the Bronx and Brooklyn as yet, if ever.

 

When the 63rd St connector was built and opened for revenue service it was envisioned that it will drastically improve overcrowding on the 53rd St corridor as well as the QBL itself in places such as Roosevelt Avenue. Well that nevehappened. That's why I'm wondering. (It did seem to work well to reduce overcrowding at Queens Plaza)

 

Yes I realize this must be an apple and oranges comparison, I know, and feel free to correct me on the facts if I came off wrong in my post, but IHMO I don't think the 2nd Ave line phase 1 and 2 will bring dramatic results as much as the MTA (and us NY'ers) would have hoped in the long run, unless that Bronx extension at least is finally built as planned.

 

Anyway my thoughts on this as a side point to supplement bus service to support subway service on Lexington Ave. Personally I think this proposal is a good idea on paper. But in reality with current traffic conditions on street level, that may be a tough plan to enact with efficiency not to mention the legal disputes that may ensue with businesses and other entities.

[Gorgor]

While I agree with you on that, I'm skeptical about how much of an improvement the new line will bring as far as relief from overcrowding on the 4 and 5 lex Ave express routes particularly as there is no thru-boro extensions into the Bronx and Brooklyn as yet, if ever.

 

When the 63rd St connector was built and opened for revenue service it was envisioned that it will drastically improve overcrowding on the 53rd St corridor as well as the QBL itself in places such as Roosevelt Avenue. Well that nevehappened. That's why I'm wondering. (It did seem to work well to reduce overcrowding at Queens Plaza)

 

Yes I realize this must be an apple and oranges comparison, I know, and feel free to correct me on the facts if I came off wrong in my post, but IHMO I don't think the 2nd Ave line phase 1 and 2 will bring dramatic results as much as the MTA (and us NY'ers) would have hoped in the long run, unless that Bronx extension at least is finally built as planned.

 

Anyway my thoughts on this as a side point to supplement bus service to support subway service on Lexington Ave. Personally I think this proposal is a good idea on paper. But in reality with current traffic conditions on street level, that may be a tough plan to enact with efficiency not to mention the legal disputes that may ensue with businesses and other entities.

 

 

Well if phase one gets completed then I'll be using the new every day. to Times Square then a downtown .

 

But I agree. At 86th Street any downtown train is crush loaded already. The new will reduce the amount of riders getting on by a decent size, whereas any bus service wouldn't even make a noticeable dent.

[Quill Depot]

Exactly, I wish there was a loop at 125th, so local trains can short-turn there and pick up peeps on the packed platforms.

[Far Rock Depot]

IMO, no bus is ever gonna attract riders off the Lex enough to make an impact. Unless you make lex bus only ( never happening). The problem is, it's not just putter Boro riders thatbpack the Lex, it's UES riders too. There will have to be some great incentives for East side riders other than SBS to get them off the Lex. Until phase 1 opens and cbtc is implemented on the Lex, it's gonna be crush load. no bus, short of making express routes a local fare, is gonna help.

[qjtransitmaster]

You can't just completely dismiss the possibility of bus service though...

 

If no one used those three routes we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

really huh I just saw M20 at 14th at 8th ave guess how many people were on it? a)1 B)12 or c)NONE

 

Correct answer later guess what bus service in manhattan is an afterthought. Understand that you will NEVER get people to use a bus instead of a subway. If utica ave subway existed B46 would not have anywhere near the Amt of passengers it has now.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Aside from buses being significantly slower than the subway, they also have much lower capacity. Attracting hundreds of subway riders to the bus wouldn't even make a measurable dent in subway loading, but it would increase bus operating costs significantly.

 

So in other words, we shouldn't bother to try to improve bus service since bus service compliments the subway right?

[Shortline Bus]

So in other words, we shouldn't bother to try to improve bus service since bus service compliments the subway right?

 

 

if you at least read my comments most of us VG8 is saying your idea for M101 SBS is not a bad idea. Just making point the primary purpose should be intra-manhattan riders who say live on Upper East Side and going to work/school in East Midtown. Almost no one boarding from the Bronx or 125th/East Harlem lines is getting off to transfer for M101 SBS and then transfer again. That at least my point.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

if you at least read my comments most of us VG8 is saying your idea for M101 SBS is not a bad idea. Just making point the primary purpose should be intra-manhattan riders who say live on Upper East Side and going to work/school in East Midtown. Almost no one boarding from the Bronx or 125th/East Harlem lines is getting off to transfer for M101 SBS and then transfer again. That at least my point.

 

Well of course not... I mean most of the crowding is in Manhattan anyway so no I wouldn't expect folks from the outerboroughs to get off and transfer to the M101SBS. That would be absurd. The idea would be to attract folks who perhaps just take the subway for short distances for example. I don't think that the M101 on its own would completely help alleviate overcrowding on the Lex line. The point is that you need a number of combinations in place to help with the problem and the SAS isn't going to help all that much since as others have said it doesn't connect with the outerboroughs #1 and #2 you still don't address the folks who need, Lex, 3rd, Madison & Park Aves.

[Gorgor]

Well of course not... I mean most of the crowding is in Manhattan anyway so no I wouldn't expect folks from the outerboroughs to get off and transfer to the M101SBS. That would be absurd. The idea would be to attract folks who perhaps just take the subway for short distances for example. I don't think that the M101 on its own would completely help alleviate overcrowding on the Lex line. The point is that you need a number of combinations in place to help with the problem and the SAS isn't going to help all that much since as others have said it doesn't connect with the outerboroughs #1 and #2 you still don't address the folks who need, Lex, 3rd, Madison & Park Aves.

 

 

No. If I was on 79th Street and had to go to 57th Street, I'd rather walk 2 blocks to 77th, take the to 59th, and then walk 2 more blocks to 57th rather than take an M101SBS. Traffic on Lexington Avenue due to double parked cars is horrific.

 

Your logic makes sense, but I witness the traffic on Lexington Avenue every day and it's pretty bad no matter when I go. Only on weekend mornings do I notice barely any traffic, but the aren't packed weekend mornings.

 

People want to get where they need to go fast. They'd rather take the subway than risk getting stuck in traffic on a bus. Plus, most of the Upper East Side riders are seeking Downtown, and the M101 doesn't go there. Bus lanes won't help either because even if everything is perfect, cars legally making right turns will delay buses because of the mass amount of pedestrians crossing the streets in Midtown.

 

M15 SBS is successful because it doesn't run close to the . Many riders who previously would have to walk to Lexington Avenue and then walk back east after they got off now benefit because the bus stops closer to where they live and/or their work place. If SBS were to be added to any east side route, it would have to be a Madison/5th Avenue route as to have the same affect as the M15 SBS.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No. If I was on 79th Street and had to go to 57th Street, I'd rather walk 2 blocks to 77th, take the to 59th, and then walk 2 more blocks to 57th rather than take an M101SBS. Traffic on Lexington Avenue due to double parked cars is horrific.

 

Your logic makes sense, but I witness the traffic on Lexington Avenue every day and it's pretty bad no matter when I go. Only on weekend mornings do I notice barely any traffic, but the aren't packed weekend mornings.

 

People want to get where they need to go fast. They'd rather take the subway than risk getting stuck in traffic on a bus. Plus, most of the Upper East Side riders are seeking Downtown, and the M101 doesn't go there. Bus lanes won't help either because even if everything is perfect, cars legally making right turns will delay buses because of the mass amount of pedestrians crossing the streets in Midtown.

 

M15 SBS is successful because it doesn't run close to the . Many riders who previously would have to walk to Lexington Avenue and then walk back east after they got off now benefit because the bus stops closer to where they live and/or their work place. If SBS were to be added to any east side route, it would have to be a Madison/5th Avenue route as to have the same affect as the M15 SBS.

 

 

I use Lex and 5th & Madison Aves regularly and I know where you're coming from. I also stated in an earlier post that one of the main things that must happen in order for SBS to be successful is to tackle the double parking that occurs on Lex and to enforce the bus lane since one would be needed. I would also encourage businesses to have their deliveries come at night as I see some businesses do here in Midtown. That would also help with some of the congestion. In short there are multiple things that would need to be done in order to for SBS to be successful along Lex. Also, I know you think SBS would be great on 5th Avenue perhaps because 5th is wider, but 5th can be just as bad as Lex even with the wider lanes.

[Gorgor]

I use Lex and 5th & Madison Aves regularly and I know where you're coming from. I also stated in an earlier post that one of the main things that must happen in order for SBS to be successful is to tackle the double parking that occurs on Lex and to enforce the bus lane since one would be needed. I would also encourage businesses to have their deliveries come at night as I see some businesses do here in Midtown. That would also help with some of the congestion. In short there are multiple things that would need to be done in order to for SBS to be successful along Lex. Also, I know you think SBS would be great on 5th Avenue perhaps because 5th is wider, but 5th can be just as bad as Lex even with the wider lanes.

 

I don't think there should be SBS on either; I just think that SBS would be much more successful on 5th than Lex.

 

And even if you can combat the problem of double parked cars, cars legally making right turns will get in the way. There's no way around that, and banning right turns is out of the question.

 

Improved SBS on the M15 could also help relieve congestion by adding in a super express. I've rarely used the downtown M15SBS on 2nd Avenue, but on 1st Avenue the 25th, 29th, 43rd, and 50th Street stops don't receive that much ridership. When the UN is in session an the M15 SBS runs nonstop between 34th and 57th via the tunnel it saves at least 5 minutes. A super express that makes all stops south of and including 14th, 34th, and all stops north of and including 57th could definitely reduce overcrowding on the .

 

Another option is simply increasing M15SBS frequencies because a bus every 5-6 minutes during the PM rush is simply ridiculous, and sometimes uptown at 14th Street people can't even get on.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't think there should be SBS on either; I just think that SBS would be much more successful on 5th than Lex.

 

And even if you can combat the problem of double parked cars, cars legally making right turns will get in the way. There's no way around that, and banning right turns is out of the question.

 

Improved SBS on the M15 could also help relieve congestion by adding in a super express. I've rarely used the downtown M15SBS on 2nd Avenue, but on 1st Avenue the 25th, 29th, 43rd, and 50th Street stops don't receive that much ridership. When the UN is in session an the M15 SBS runs nonstop between 34th and 57th via the tunnel it saves at least 5 minutes. A super express that makes all stops south of and including 14th, 34th, and all stops north of and including 57th could definitely reduce overcrowding on the .

 

Another option is simply increasing M15SBS frequencies because a bus every 5-6 minutes during the PM rush is simply ridiculous, and sometimes uptown at 14th Street people can't even get on.

 

Yeah but your argument doesn't quite hold water because one reason that the M15SBS has been so successful is due to the enforcement of the bus lane. That is something that the has touted and it certainly has helped with the buses bunching overall. I use the M15SBS regularly and just used it tonight and the bus showed up right on time. The one thing that has certainly improved is the bunching issue, which is a huge issue with the M101, M102 and M103. Me personally I only use the Lex subway when I have to and would prefer to use the M101 where I can but as you said when I use the subway when I am in a rush. The problem is IMO that something has to be done in the here and now besides the SAS because I feel that the line has been more problematic of late and is simply under too much stress. It needs some sort of relief and I still feel that you need multiple answers to address the problem. Perhaps as you said adding more M15SBS super express service could help. Having SBS service along 5th and Lex could help as well in addition to the SAS project.

[Gorgor]

Yeah but your argument doesn't quite hold water because one reason that the M15SBS has been so successful is due to the enforcement of the bus lane. That is something that the has touted and it certainly has helped with the buses bunching overall. I use the M15SBS regularly and just used it tonight and the bus showed up right on time. The one thing that has certainly improved is the bunching issue, which is a huge issue with the M101, M102 and M103. Me personally I only use the Lex subway when I have to and would prefer to use the M101 where I can but as you said when I use the subway when I am in a rush. The problem is IMO that something has to be done in the here and now besides the SAS because I feel that the line has been more problematic of late and is simply under too much stress. It needs some sort of relief and I still feel that you need multiple answers to address the problem. Perhaps as you said adding more M15SBS super express service could help. Having SBS service along 5th and Lex could help as well in addition to the SAS project.

 

The thing is that the M15 SBS didn't take that many passengers off of the to notice any difference. It has surely helped many Upper East Side and East Harlem residents as well as others traveling to the east side, but I would never even consider taking it downtown in the morning. I was just thinking, an alternative for reducing congestion may not have to be through the MTA. Cab share at 79th/York and Wall Street vans at 85th/York get fairly decent usage for transporting residents downtown in only 10-15 minutes, although I'm not sure if other neighborhoods would be willing to spend $6 each way for $250+ a month on transportation.

[checkmatechamp13]

The thing is that the M15 SBS didn't take that many passengers off of the to notice any difference. It has surely helped many Upper East Side and East Harlem residents as well as others traveling to the east side, but I would never even consider taking it downtown in the morning. I was just thinking, an alternative for reducing congestion may not have to be through the MTA. Cab share at 79th/York and Wall Street vans at 85th/York get fairly decent usage for transporting residents downtown in only 10-15 minutes, although I'm not sure if other neighborhoods would be willing to spend $6 each way for $250+ a month on transportation.

 

BTW, does JAzumah still have his replacement for the X90 (I think it would have like 4 trips each way, running every 30 minutes, or something like that)?

[Threxx]

really huh I just saw M20 at 14th at 8th ave guess how many people were on it? a)1 B)12 or c)NONE

 

Correct answer later guess what bus service in manhattan is an afterthought. Understand that you will NEVER get people to use a bus instead of a subway. If utica ave subway existed B46 would not have anywhere near the Amt of passengers it has now.

 

 

Really huh? I was just ON an M20 at 14th & 8th and it had 15 people on it.

[Shortline Bus]

Really huh? I was just ON an M20 at 14th & 8th and it had 15 people on it.

 

 

Being fair to QJ maybe it was a Sunday afternoon/evening with little riders. However sometimes QJ does create some wild stories lol.

[Threxx]

Being fair to QJ maybe it was a Sunday afternoon/evening with little riders. However sometimes QJ does create some wild stories lol.

 

 

Me, it was a Saturday evening...

[Gorgor]

BTW, does JAzumah still have his replacement for the X90 (I think it would have like 4 trips each way, running every 30 minutes, or something like that)?

 

 

That got taken down by the city only days after the June 2010 budget cuts.

[Vistausss]

I think the M103 would the best candidate for SBS (making stops at 125th, 96th, 86th, 59th, 42nd etc...) being that it terminates on 125th and won't have to deal with that crosstown nightmare.

 

 

Indeed. Plus at 125th you have more choice. More subway lines, even MNRR (yes, more expensive but at least you have the option at 125th).

[Shortline Bus]

Indeed. Plus at 125th you have more choice. More subway lines, even MNRR (yes, more expensive but at least you have the option at 125th).

 

 

Little secret lol. On most Trains heading to Grand Central boarding at 125th, most MNRR conductors dont bother collecting fares.

[qjtransitmaster]

So in other words, we shouldn't bother to try to improve bus service since bus service compliments the subway right?

 

nope cause no one would use it!!! want an example M20 NOBODY USES IT!!! Look at the weekend you will see how empty it is the only reason M101/102/103 get use is cause many old middle age folk and many points of interest along 3rd ave. Plus M101&102 north of lex serve other places. Very few ppl in manhatran care about buses other than crosstowns. Unless they are old why you think in terms or reliability noone cares. If you want to improve buses in manhattan start by improving LES service and serving places with no subway or bus like WSH and improving express bus path.