How to alleviate overcrowding on the Lex lines with enhanced bus service

[Quill Depot]

No, the average commuter used the M101/2/3

[qjtransitmaster]

 

 

Really huh? I was just ON an M20 at 14th & 8th and it had 15 people on it.

 

It was a sunday the answer is NONE.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

nope cause no one would use it!!! want an example M20 NOBODY USES IT!!! Look at the weekend you will see how empty it is the only reason M101/102/103 get use is cause many old middle age folk and many points of interest along 3rd ave. Plus M101&102 north of lex serve other places. Very few ppl in manhatran care about buses other than crosstowns. Unless they are old why you think in terms or reliability noone cares. If you want to improve buses in manhattan start by improving LES service and serving places with no subway or bus like WSH and improving express bus path.

 

Just calm down with your anti-bus rhetoric. I use the M101 and I am not elderly in the slightest. Plenty of people use buses over the subways. It comes down to preference.

[checkmatechamp13]

That got taken down by the city only days after the June 2010 budget cuts.

 

 

That was his original plan. Then he said he found a loophole where he would use buses that were coming in from NJ and have them go around Manhattan.

[qjtransitmaster]

Just calm down with your anti-bus rhetoric. I use the M101 and I am not elderly in the slightest. Plenty of people use buses over the subways. It comes down to preference.

 

That preference doesn't exist in manhattan buddy just saying that before you waste time with duplicate buses try improving buses that need it first like west side hwy and some buses that travel diagonally and go direct to the point. Try improving and refining buses in the LES and 5th ave madison where improvements are needed. Especially in the crosstowns. An HOV on harlem river to speed up BXM1 and allow express service north of 92nd street is a much higher priority than a futile effort to get people to use buses over trains not gonna happen. Now come back to reality please.

 

Improving buses like M31 and creating a bus via side roads from battery park city to maybe 34th pier would be money put to better use. Extension of M21 may be a better idea.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

That preference doesn't exist in manhattan buddy just saying that before you waste time with duplicate buses try improving buses that need it first like west side hwy and some buses that travel diagonally and go direct to the point. Try improving and refining buses in the LES and 5th ave madison where improvements are needed. Especially in the crosstowns. An HOV on harlem river to speed up BXM1 and allow express service north of 92nd street is a much higher priority than a futile effort to get people to use buses over trains not gonna happen. Now come back to reality please.

 

bold- what does this have to do with the discussion

Italics- Speak for yourself

[qjtransitmaster]

bold- what does this have to do with the discussion

Italics- Speak for yourself

 

Improving bus speeds in manhattan in general.

 

Reality nobody is going to use a bus over a subway if they both go the same way unless they are under conditions that force em to or they are tired.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That preference doesn't exist in manhattan buddy just saying that before you waste time with duplicate buses try improving buses that need it first like west side hwy and some buses that travel diagonally and go direct to the point. Try improving and refining buses in the LES and 5th ave madison where improvements are needed. Especially in the crosstowns. An HOV on harlem river to speed up BXM1 and allow express service north of 92nd street is a much higher priority than a futile effort to get people to use buses over trains not gonna happen. Now come back to reality please.

 

Improving buses like M31 and creating a bus via side roads from battery park city to maybe 34th pier would be money put to better use. Extension of M21 may be a better idea.

 

LOL... First off what does the BxM1 have to do with this and second, the BxM1 already makes express bus stops NORTH of 92nd street.

[qjtransitmaster]

LOL... First off what does the BxM1 have to do with this and second, the BxM1 already makes express bus stops NORTH of 92nd street.

 

That 92nd part has nothing to do with BXM1 actually and involves potential for another line

[Grand Concourse]

Little secret lol. On most Trains heading to Grand Central boarding at 125th, most MNRR conductors dont bother collecting fares.

 

Still a bad idea to give people the false feeling that all c/rs do it. What happens if you end up being that 1/10 person that gets asked for a ticket? Just buy a ticket and if they don't take it, use it for another time.

[Shortline Bus]

Still a bad idea to give people the false feeling that all c/rs do it. What happens if you end up being that 1/10 person that gets asked for a ticket? Just buy a ticket and if they don't take it, use it for another time.

 

 

Not saying it a "great idea" about trying to ride for "free" GCT-Bound MNRR from 125th. Just stating a very strong fact.

[Far Rock Depot]

nope cause no one would use it!!! want an example M20 NOBODY USES IT!!! Look at the weekend you will see how empty it is the only reason M101/102/103 get use is cause many old middle age folk and many points of interest along 3rd ave. Plus M101&102 north of lex serve other places. Very few ppl in manhatran care about buses other than crosstowns. Unless they are old why you think in terms or reliability noone cares. If you want to improve buses in manhattan start by improving LES service and serving places with no subway or bus like WSH and improving express bus path.

 

It was a sunday the answer is NONE.

 

Now I worked on christopher and 7th for 2 yrs until this summer and let me tell you, 6 days a week, there's riders on the M20(I was off on Wednesdays. To say no one uses it is honestly, ignorant. If you're going to base an argument on ridership, use published numbers reports instead of "once I saw" observations that can easily be disputed by daily observers alone. There's a reason that bus still runs-ridership. It's there.

[Shortline Bus]

Now I worked on christopher and 7th for 2 yrs until this summer and let me tell you, 6 days a week, there's riders on the M20(I was off on Wednesdays. To say no one uses it is honestly, ignorant. If you're going to base an argument on ridership, use published numbers reports instead of "once I saw" observations that can easily be disputed by daily observers alone. There's a reason that bus still runs-ridership. It's there.

 

 

Well said. While i dont have data from couple of times i been on "M20" (since it was created from split of old "M10")it get ridership but of course not as much as say the "m5' or the east side north-south routes.

 

Most of the ridership rides the M20 say between 1)Battery Park City and 23(I have not been on it since it extension to South Ferry) 2)66th and the Penn Station area. In a nutshell, there enough riders for full time 7 day a week "M20" service. Biggest problem on that line is bus bunching caused by traffic jams from both the areas around both Times Sq.& the Holland Tunnel especially weekdays.

[Far Rock Depot]

Of course compared to other routes, well put btw, it may not be crush load, but even if it's just some segments, the farebox warrants its existence. Some need to realize a route does not need to be heavily used from end to end for it to exist. If that was the case, the old M10(which I remember) would have been shortened and not split.

[qjtransitmaster]

Now I worked on christopher and 7th for 2 yrs until this summer and let me tell you, 6 days a week, there's riders on the M20(I was off on Wednesdays. To say no one uses it is honestly, ignorant. If you're going to base an argument on ridership, use published numbers reports instead of "once I saw" observations that can easily be disputed by daily observers alone. There's a reason that bus still runs-ridership. It's there.

 

Yeah you are right on that one hehe. The numbers don't lie.

[Shortline Bus]

Yeah you are right on that one hehe. The numbers don't lie.

 

 

If you argument is that the M20 should end at around 10-11pm on Sunday Nights(instead of currently at around Midnight)then that a 'fair' argument. Rest of week it should be left alone(other than maybe down the road IMO extending it to 72nd/Bway)to help out the M5.

[qjtransitmaster]

If you argument is that the M20 should end at around 10-11pm on Sunday Nights(instead of currently at around Midnight)then that a 'fair' argument. Rest of week it should be left alone(other than maybe down the road IMO extending it to 72nd/Bway)to help out the M5.

 

It won't help M5 as it's empty around that area not refuting your post though.

[Far Rock Depot]

Dude, you have a drive to help improve service. Although some ideas may be out there at times, it's just a start. You show passion. That passion, combined with experience over the years to come, will be something riders need. If anything, think of ways to increase ridership.

 

Now personally, to get crowds off the Lex onto buses, as I stated earlier, will not be a doable task. The MTA will need to give incentives tonriders to do that which, IMO, they will never consider. Neither will the DOT. It will take more than SBS, enforced bus lanes, and even making Lex a buses-only corridor, to do it. I feel SBS has become the "answer all" here in the forums to everything. And that's not reality. The Lex has been in operation for a century. And that, IMHO, is a huge problem. CBTC will help it live on as basically the planets busiest subway line and also reliable and faster than the last century. But even that, isn't the fix. It's now, and has been, at over capacity longer than any of us has been alive. There's no "quick fix". There's never a quick fix.

[qjtransitmaster]

Dude, you have a drive to help improve service. Although some ideas may be out there at times, it's just a start. You show passion. That passion, combined with experience over the years to come, will be something riders need. If anything, think of ways to increase ridership.

 

Now personally, to get crowds off the Lex onto buses, as I stated earlier, will not be a doable task. The MTA will need to give incentives tonriders to do that which, IMO, they will never consider. Neither will the DOT. It will take more than SBS, enforced bus lanes, and even making Lex a buses-only corridor, to do it. I feel SBS has become the "answer all" here in the forums to everything. And that's not reality. The Lex has been in operation for a century. And that, IMHO, is a huge problem. CBTC will help it live on as basically the planets busiest subway line and also reliable and faster than the last century. But even that, isn't the fix. It's now, and has been, at over capacity longer than any of us has been alive. There's no "quick fix". There's never a quick fix.

 

Then forget about the buses and fix the problems on the Lex via capacity upgrades instead of running away from the problem with buses. Buses have their place but buses are here to complement the rail network NOT copy it. OK you got my attention.

[Vistausss]

Little secret lol. On most Trains heading to Grand Central boarding at 125th, most MNRR conductors dont bother collecting fares.

 

 

Lol, that makes it even better to send the M103 to 125th!

[Far Rock Depot]

Exactly QJ. Look at it like this too, when the MTA wants to make cuts,one type of bus route they look to cut routes that follow subway routes like the B25(although that route still exists).

Now let's look at our upcoming future on the east side: SAS will open in a few years adding 3 stops. For debate sake, let's say that reduces passenger usage on the Lex between 96th and 68th by say, 10%. That means out of every 100 riders, 10 will use SAS. Now if they implement cbtc on the Lex after that, tph and/or average speeds increase. This alone will take years to see the benefits. I personally, won't see SAS till I'm around 39-40. And in my middle 40s to 50 for Lex Ave cbtc unless they start installation real soon.

 

Enhanced bus service will work in areas where a subway isn't present(like the M15sbs, eastern queens, South East Brooklyn,etc. It will also work for short distance travel(traffic permitting of course) for trips, for instance like from say 103 to 86th st. There's no benefit for riders to board buses after taking a subway when the subway too, goes there, it's time consuming-especially in Manhattan. We're a city of speed. "nothing faster than a New York minute". To board a train in the Bronx, to transfer to a bus at 125th to go to midtown would have the average commuter think "by the time I board this bus, my train would probably be at 86th still by then.

[AndrewJC]

So in other words, we shouldn't bother to try to improve bus service since bus service compliments the subway right?

 

No, we should improve bus service on its own terms. Running more (slow and relatively low-capacity) buses in a quest to decongest the (relatively fast and high-capacity) subway is an excellent way to spend a lot of money not decongesting anything at all. Remember, the guideline load of an IRT train is 1,100 people. That's a lot of people on each train, and losing a few busloads per hour wouldn't even be noticeable.

 

The 6, while crowded, is much less crowded than the 4 and 5. Any 4 or 5 rider who is willing to give up a few minutes in exchange for comfort can ride the 6, which is still much faster and much more reliable than any bus could possibly be. Per rider, it's also a lot cheaper to operate.

 

Still a bad idea to give people the false feeling that all c/rs do it. What happens if you end up being that 1/10 person that gets asked for a ticket? Just buy a ticket and if they don't take it, use it for another time.

 

Metro-North tickets are only valid for 60 days, and since the refund processing fee is $10, a ticket from Harlem to Grand Central is effectively not refundable.

 

Metro-North isn't a POP system. It's perfectly legal to ride without a ticket, although on-board fares are higher than fares paid at machines or ticket windows ($11 or $13 from Harlem to Grand Central). If you want to take the risk, just be prepared to pay $11 or $13 if you're asked for a ticket.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No, we should improve bus service on its own terms. Running more (slow and relatively low-capacity) buses in a quest to decongest the (relatively fast and high-capacity) subway is an excellent way to spend a lot of money not decongesting anything at all. Remember, the guideline load of an IRT train is 1,100 people. That's a lot of people on each train, and losing a few busloads per hour wouldn't even be noticeable.

 

The 6, while crowded, is much less crowded than the 4 and 5. Any 4 or 5 rider who is willing to give up a few minutes in exchange for comfort can ride the 6, which is still much faster and much more reliable than any bus could possibly be. Per rider, it's also a lot cheaper to operate.

 

Depending on how far you have to walk to the versus the bus that may not necessarily be true since the Lex. lines don't run on Lex the entire time.

[qjtransitmaster]

Depending on how far you have to walk to the versus the bus that may not necessarily be true since the Lex. lines don't run on Lex the entire time.

Will you please use a shred of sanity and give it a rest!!!!!!! Just stop your point makes no sense and is completely invalid what point of noone cares about duplicate buses do you not understand? You must be on some really strong stuff to even fathom that anyone will choose a bus over the subway when both go the same direction. It will Never happen ever Total BS the bus will NEVER be comparable to the in speed . Seriously here you go with zero logic. If you think buses will decongest the & then you are on drugs stronger than anything I knew existed. Your argument fails miserably and is a waste of money you lost now stop and get over it. This is simply running away from the problem. B25 SBS is similar to your idea that's how bad your idea is. Improved SBS on lex= WASTE OF MONEY. That money is better invested into improving corridors NOT served by the subway. Under your logic Q32 needs SBS plz it's called the .

[Grand Concourse]

The point is, you can only jam so many trains in the same tunnel and expect it to function normally as opposed to basically a train 'bumper to bumper'. You need something above to handle the excess. So to a degree, he has a point. No one is saying a bus is a replacement for anything. The bus would be a compliment to provide some additional capacity for the riders heading in the same direction. Basically take the bus if you are going a short distance and the subways for longer distances. Plus there's no elevators on some of the Lexington av stops, so another reason why a bus would be more useful.

 

SBS does not take away that much money from a potential service expansion anywhere as the main expenses would be the MVMs, repainted lanes and traffic cameras. So why are you getting all riled up? It's not that far fetched.