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YankeesPwnMets

Adding SBS to the M14A/D

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The MTA should add SBS to the 14A/D. If you take the bus down Union Sq, I see them lined up next to the Walgreens with enormous lines of passengers just waiting to swipe their card through. This is common THROUGHOUT the route. I took the 14A from Union down to Lower East Side and we probably averaged around 4mph throughout the entire route... it is incredibly slow at times, not to mention the traffic that is on at 14th st. Imagine the time that could be saved if all these passengers had already paid with the machines outside

 

Why doesn't the MTA add SBS machines to these extremely busy Crosstown routes? I remember reading the Straphanger's report a few years ago and basically all of the slowest routes listed there were Crosstown routes.

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The MTA should add SBS to the 14A/D. If you take the bus down Union Sq, I see them lined up next to the Walgreens with enormous lines of passengers just waiting to swipe their card through. This is common THROUGHOUT the route. I took the 14A from Union down to Lower East Side and we probably averaged around 4mph throughout the entire route... it is incredibly slow at times, not to mention the traffic that is on at 14th st. Imagine the time that could be saved if all these passengers had already paid with the machines outside

 

Why doesn't the MTA add SBS machines to these extremely busy Crosstown routes? I remember reading the Straphanger's report a few years ago and basically all of the slowest routes listed there were Crosstown routes.

 

The thing is, you can't really add SBS to those lines. And there's no way a ride would average 4MPH throughout the entire way. 4MPH, you'd be at 14th in over 30 minutes. SBS wouldnt help because you can't really skip stops along the lines because every stop is very crucial and does pick up passengers. There's not much one can do about the traffic.

 

I wouldn't believe two shits about the Straphangers reports because its the same bloody thing every year. They always say that the Crosstowns are slow but I still believe they don't do as much research as they say in the outerboroughs.....they are slow but NOT THAT slow......

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It might cost quite a bit to put those machines on the M14A/D unless it's done just along 14th Street. The M14A/D makes more stops and is longer than other crosstowns. What I find silly is that M14A/D is much busier than the M34/34A yet 34th Street has the full treatment and 14th Street has plain jane crosstown service.

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It might cost quite a bit to put those machines on the M14A/D unless it's done just along 14th Street. The M14A/D makes more stops and is longer than other crosstowns. What I find silly is that M14A/D is much busier than the M34/34A yet 34th Street has the full treatment and 14th Street has plain jane crosstown service.

It's not really much busier than the M34/M34A, but its busy. M14D service has more service than the M14A because it also absorbed what the M14C originally was along with the fact that there is more demand for service on that side of the line.

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The MTA should add SBS to the 14A/D. If you take the bus down Union Sq, I see them lined up next to the Walgreens with enormous lines of passengers just waiting to swipe their card through. This is common THROUGHOUT the route. I took the 14A from Union down to Lower East Side and we probably averaged around 4mph throughout the entire route... it is incredibly slow at times, not to mention the traffic that is on at 14th st. Imagine the time that could be saved if all these passengers had already paid with the machines outside

 

Why doesn't the MTA add SBS machines to these extremely busy Crosstown routes? I remember reading the Straphanger's report a few years ago and basically all of the slowest routes listed there were Crosstown routes.

want SBS on 14th street simple go underground and use the (L) that is your SBS right there ;) .

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want SBS on 14th street simple go underground and use the (L) that is your SBS right there ;) .

Um, that's not exactly helpful you know, but you do have a bit of a point.

Edited by Cait Sith
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Create an (L) exit to Avenue A at the First Avenue stop. It is possible. Have people board there. Much easier. 14th Street passed Avenue A is a lot less crowded.

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Create an (L) exit to Avenue A at the First Avenue stop. It is possible. Have people board there. Much easier. 14th Street passed Avenue A is a lot less crowded.

 

 

You know how long of a passage that is????

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want SBS on 14th street simple go underground and use the (L) that is your SBS right there ;) .

The (L) is already overcrowded as it is and not everyone can jump on the subway hence why they take the bus.

 

Um, that's not exactly helpful you know, but you do have a bit of a point.

Well me personally I happen to agree with you and YankeesPwnMets.  I think all crosstown routes should have some of the SBS features where riders pay before they board, this way at least boarding is sped up because I ride the M14 as well and have for years since I used to work in Chelsea near Union Square and often times you can have 4 M14s all backed up along 14th street.  Granted, some may be Ds and some may be As but bunching is bunching.  The other issue is you constantly have people running to get on which then holds the bus up further.  Finally they need to get all low floor buses on that line to help boarding be quicker as well, esp. with the elderly folks, etc.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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I think that those who don't like the M14 and it's crowding (on a weekday) can take a short walk down to the M8 and take that instead...

Now I don't fully agree with the fact that there should be SBS on the M14 routes I do however think they should add weekend service to the M8 to relieve crowding on the M14 (if possible)

The M14 Has crowds at many of its bus stops and runs along the (L) (1st Avenue-14th/8th) most also so that is one reason why I see them never having SBS for the M14.

Edited by RFC

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I think that those who don't like the M14 and it's crowding (on a weekday) can take a short walk down to the M8 and take that instead...

Now I don't fully agree with the fact that there should be SBS on the M14 routes I do however think they should add weekend service to the M8 to relieve crowding on the M14 (if possible)

The M14 Has crowds at many of its bus stops and runs along the (L) (1st Avenue-14th/8th) most also so that is one reason why I see them never having SBS for the M14.

People don't want 8th street... They want 14th street... When I'm on 8th street I don't even think about the M8.  I rarely see one and so I just walk from the West Side to the East Side, which for some reason doesn't seem all that far to me anyway as opposed to 14th street.  Could be all of the crowds along 14th street forcing you to zigzag around like crazy.

 

In all of the years that I've been down in the village I can think of only one time I used the M8 crosstown and I was going to the West Village and either was very tired and/or saw that an M8 was due soon or was nearby, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.  In short, I don't see adding M8 weekend service doing anything to help out the M14 especially since a lot of people have bags and such from shopping on 14th street.  No one wants to schlepp down to the M8 which has far less service than the M14 does.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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People don't want 8th street... They want 14th street... When I'm on 8th street I don't even think about the M8.  I rarely see one and so I just walk from the West Side to the East Side, which for some reason doesn't seem all that far to me anyway as opposed to the 14th street.  Could be all of the crowds along 14th street forcing you to zigzag around like crazy.

 

In all of the years that I've been down in the village I can think of only one time I used the M8 crosstown and I was going to the West Village and either was very tired and/or saw that an M8 was due soon or was nearby, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.  In short, I don't see adding M8 weekend service doing anything to help out the M14 especially since a lot of people have bags and such from shopping on 14th street.  No one wants to schlepp down to the M8 which has far less service than the M14 does.

 

Agreed. Whenever I see an M8 I initially assume it is an OOS bus because it is so infrequent and usually empty.

 

The M14's I see are usually packed, but I think that installing the SBS equipment would be tough because you have all of those sketchy sidewalk vendors all across 14th St, plus I see a lot of, ummm, questionable behavior go down there and I suspect the machines would get broken pretty often. Which is too bad, because I do think that route could use SBS, especially since it already has artics. 

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I think that those who don't like the M14 and it's crowding (on a weekday) can take a short walk down to the M8 and take that instead...

Now I don't fully agree with the fact that there should be SBS on the M14 routes I do however think they should add weekend service to the M8 to relieve crowding on the M14 (if possible)

The M14 Has crowds at many of its bus stops and runs along the (L) (1st Avenue-14th/8th) most also so that is one reason why I see them never having SBS for the M14.

 

 

two or three yards?

 

it goes First ave-> ave A-> ave B-> ave C-> ave D-> FDR drive

The problem with the M8 (when it runs) is the fact that with most M14 riders, The M8 does not serve their destinations. A's have a lot of riders using Grand St and D's have lots of riders who need Ave D and Delancey(mostly projects. Multiple projects). Now i was gonna give an explanation as to why SBS wont fly on 14th st but Cait Sith beat me to it (as always! LOL). Both of us were residents of LES and know the M14 route and traffic conditions. 

 

As far as the Ave A entrance for the First Ave station on the L, Two or three yards????? someone doesnt go there much huh?  The block of 14th between Ave A and First is pretty long. And with a train length of 480', the block itself almost doubles that, and wont rell do much good since well, see the beginning of my post above. 

 

People, SBS and/or any of its features arent always the answer. The M34's didnt get SBS due to speed but passenger volume in a very popular area among tourists, commuters and shoppers, and is part of a more grand master plan to make it a Transitway in the future. These routes that get chosen for SBS have more factors than just volume and traffic. If anything, traffic can be something that can eliminate a route  from getting chosen. 

Vending machines wont really speed up boarding on 14th st and IMHO, would increase fare evasion. And with the majority of its buses being low floor already, having it 100% low floor wont help it either. It may actually hurt it since LF buses have less seats than their HF equivalents. You wanna speed up the M14's, reduce traffic, which is out of the MTA's control.  

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Agreed. Whenever I see an M8 I initially assume it is an OOS bus because it is so infrequent and usually empty.

 

The M14's I see are usually packed, but I think that installing the SBS equipment would be tough because you have all of those sketchy sidewalk vendors all across 14th St, plus I see a lot of, ummm, questionable behavior go down there and I suspect the machines would get broken pretty often. Which is too bad, because I do think that route could use SBS, especially since it already has artics. 

lol@M8... Takes me back to when I was going to NYU one morning to take a tour of the campus... I didn't even think about the M8.  I said to myself, let's just stroll down here... Picked up a coffee from one of my Belgian spots and made my way over.

 

As for the M14, they're already using artics, so technically they already have dedicated space for the machines and the stops.  I do agree that there is a ton of foot traffic along 14th street, but quite frankly they have them in the Bronx for crying out loud on the Bx12SBS, so I don't see why it would that much more terrible here in the city.

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People, SBS and/or any of its features arent always the answer. The M34's didnt get SBS due to speed but passenger volume in a very popular area among tourists, commuters and shoppers, and is part of a more grand master plan to make it a Transitway in the future. These routes that get chosen for SBS have more factors than just volume and traffic. If anything, traffic can be something that can eliminate a route  from getting chosen. 

Vending machines wont really speed up boarding on 14th st and IMHO, would increase fare evasion. And with the majority of its buses being low floor already, having it 100% low floor wont help it either. It may actually hurt it since LF buses have less seats than their HF equivalents. You wanna speed up the M14's, reduce traffic, which is out of the MTA's control.  

I disagree... I don't see how having folks pay beforehand wouldn't help at least at the stops. Also I see plenty of elderly folks struggling to get up those stairs and all of the kneeling and waiting and waiting could be reduced with more low floor buses, even if they have fewer seats.  Most stops have high turnover anyway so it isn't like people are going to die if they have to stand for a few stops. Now other than that I wouldn't mess with the M14 but that feature alone should be considered or some sort of feature that helps to speed up boarding.  Furthermore, most crosstown buses are usually folks transferring from the bus or subway anyway so I'm not sure how much fare evasion would be a problem unless we're talking about on the far ends of the route like by the projects.  In that case that could be a problem.  Now I've never lived on the LES, but I use the M14 enough from West Side and East Side to have a pretty good idea about the route and how it functions.

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The M14 needs SBS. As much as people beg to differ, bus lanes do help on the M34/A, the route is faster than it used to be. 

 

The M14 also has a high passenger volume, as it is unique in the fact that it also serves a more residential area (Alphabet City) as well as a popular tourist destination (Union Square Park).

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The M14 needs SBS. As much as people beg to differ, bus lanes do help on the M34/A, the route is faster than it used to be. 

 

The M14 also has a high passenger volume, as it is unique in the fact that it also serves a more residential area (Alphabet City) as well as a popular tourist destination (Union Square Park).

I do agree however that I don't see any stops that can really be taken away but that's not that big of a deal. It's almost as if the argument is that traffic is the sole reason why the M14 bunches so much, when in reality it has already been stated that traffic isn't always a problem there and I agree with that.  I do however find the large crowds at most stops to be a problem that slows down the route.

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lol@M8... Takes me back to when I was going to NYU one morning to take a tour of the campus... I didn't even think about the M8.  I said to myself, let's just stroll down here... Picked up a coffee from one of my Belgian spots and made my way over.

 

As for the M14, they're already using artics, so technically they already have dedicated space for the machines and the stops.  I do agree that there is a ton of foot traffic along 14th street, but quite frankly they have them in the Bronx for crying out loud on the Bx12SBS, so I don't see why it would that much more terrible here in the city.

Because the Bx12+SBS+ was the launch route for the low-floor artics along with the fact that it was the first SBS route. The only difference between their artics and the M14's is that the M14's have much more room in them.

 

I disagree... I don't see how having folks pay beforehand wouldn't help at least at the stops. Also I see plenty of elderly folks struggling to get up those stairs and all of the kneeling and waiting and waiting could be reduced with more low floor buses, even if they have fewer seats.  Most stops have high turnover anyway so it isn't like people are going to die if they have to stand for a few stops. Now other than that I wouldn't mess with the M14 but that feature alone should be considered or some sort of feature that helps to speed up boarding.  Furthermore, most crosstown buses are usually folks transferring from the bus or subway anyway so I'm not sure how much fare evasion would be a problem unless we're talking about on the far ends of the route like by the projects.  In that case that could be a problem.  Now I've never lived on the LES, but I use the M14 enough from West Side and East Side to have a pretty good idea about the route and how it functions.

 

The M14 needs SBS. As much as people beg to differ, bus lanes do help on the M34/A, the route is faster than it used to be. 

 

The M14 also has a high passenger volume, as it is unique in the fact that it also serves a more residential area (Alphabet City) as well as a popular tourist destination (Union Square Park).

 

 

Here's the problem with everyone's(Except Far Rock Depot) case.

 

1. Where would you remove stops? The problem is you CAN'T remove stops along either one of the lines because they all generate a decent amount of ridership.

 

2. People are assuming that SBS would reduce bunching, what a joke. It appears that ya'll havent been around the M15 or Bx12 Select enough. The only one that really doesn't bunch is the M34!

 

14th Street pretty much warrants the bunching, wanna know why? There is always an extra few passengers waiting to board a bus after one leaves ESPECIALLY at Irving Place and THATS the only stop where boarding takes forever....

 

3. Bus lanes? Forget about it. Folks over at Chelsea and the LES fight hard for their parking spots and that whole corridor is not bus lane friendly.

 

4. Fare machines? And who's gonna check to make sure that folks actually pay? Adding fare machines would make farebeating a plague along the M14. It really wouldn't speed up the boarding process. Hell, the eagle team is barely on the freaking M15 for christ sake!

 

5. One can point out about the many famed tourist spots the M14 goes along, the high volume of passengers along the lines and the traffic, but by that logic, the damn M2, M5 and M42 should have SBS because they all hit many famed tourist spots, get slammed in traffic and gets a high amount of passengers per trip.

 

6. The M14A/D ONLY gets packed during the midday & rush hours....after 7/8PM, the lines, the traffic and the amount of people pretty much dwindles down. The M15 & Bx12 Local and Limited at the time got packed well into the 11PM hour along with the fact that LIMITED service ended around 10PM....that's one of the big reasons as to why the M15 & Bx12 GOT SBS......

 

All SBS really is is just a temporary fix to something that can't be repaired fully. Look at the M15 Select for example. Granted it provides a somewhat faster trip, but the gotdamned local comes more often than the select in most cases and the select bunches more than the damn 5th avenue routes. On it's first year, it was running nicely, 2011 and now? It's running like shit! The line has more problems now than it ever did with the Limited.

 

Adding SBS to a line where its problematic conditions only occur during the rush hour is not really helpful.

 

Traffic is a problem in Manhattan and forever will be, I don't understand why people are bitching about it to begin with.

Edited by Cait Sith
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The argument to made here is that SBS would speed up boarding times, and that probably is the case. But every other element of SBS (bus lanes, traffic priority, etc.) just wouldn't really work. Not to mention, farebeating is already bad on the 14, add in machines and it'd get worse...

 

As for the M8, it's not that bad. I take that bus all the time, always have. That bus has low ridership because it has poor service, not poor service because of the low ridership. Take it during the times when service is good (early morning) and it's absolutely packed, and it used to be much more full in previous years with better service.

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Because the Bx12+SBS+ was the launch route for the low-floor artics along with the fact that it was the first SBS route. The only difference between their artics and the M14's is that the M14's have much more room in them.

 

 

 

 

Here's the problem with everyone's(Except Far Rock Depot) case.

 

1. Where would you remove stops? The problem is you CAN'T remove stops along either one of the lines because they all generate a decent amount of ridership.

 

2. People are assuming that SBS would reduce bunching, what a joke. It appears that ya'll havent been around the M15 or Bx12 Select enough. The only one that really doesn't bunch is the M34!

 

14th Street pretty much warrants the bunching, wanna know why? There is always an extra few passengers waiting to board a bus after one leaves ESPECIALLY at Irving Place and THATS the only stop where boarding takes forever....

 

3. Bus lanes? Forget about it. Folks over at Chelsea and the LES fight hard for their parking spots and that whole corridor is not bus lane friendly.

 

4. Fare machines? And who's gonna check to make sure that folks actually pay? Adding fare machines would make farebeating a plague along the M14. It really wouldn't speed up the boarding process. Hell, the eagle team is barely on the freaking M15 for christ sake!

 

5. One can point out about the many famed tourist spots the M14 goes along, the high volume of passengers along the lines and the traffic, but by that logic, the damn M2, M5 and M42 should have SBS because they all hit many famed tourist spots, get slammed in traffic and gets a high amount of passengers per trip.

 

6. The M14A/D ONLY gets packed during the midday & rush hours....after 7/8PM, the lines, the traffic and the amount of people pretty much dwindles down. The M15 & Bx12 Local and Limited at the time got packed well into the 11PM hour along with the fact that LIMITED service ended around 10PM....that's one of the big reasons as to why the M15 & Bx12 GOT SBS......

 

All SBS really is is just a temporary fix to something that can't be repaired fully. Look at the M15 Select for example. Granted it provides a somewhat faster trip, but the gotdamned local comes more often than the select in most cases and the select bunches more than the damn 5th avenue routes. On it's first year, it was running nicely, 2011 and now? It's running like shit! The line has more problems now than it ever did with the Limited.

 

Adding SBS to a line where its problematic conditions only occur during the rush hour is not really helpful.

 

Traffic is a problem in Manhattan and forever will be, I don't understand why people are bitching about it to begin with.

Actually I didn't propose removing any stops.  The only thing I stated was that I think that boarding could be sped up. The other issues that the M14 suffers from are another animal, but there are times when 14th street isn't that terrible as you said.

 

As for the whole farebeating argument, the real question is how many people on the M14 are actual paying customers or people just transferring? Studies in the past have shown that most crosstown buses contain passengers that are generally transferring from other buses.  I still find it hard to believe that farebeating is such an issue on the M14 but I'll take you and MVH's word because the times that I ride I don't see people not paying or coming in through the back door, be it on the West Side or the East Side.

 

As for the whole traffic argument, I think it would be wise to continue to find ways to improve bus service so these sorts of discussions should be had.  We can't just have everyone cramming on the subway, esp. seeing how even the subways are becoming slower and less reliable with more and more people riding, so we have a system that overall is becoming less and less efficient.

 

As far as farebeating goes, the question is simply a lack of enforcement, be it for a SBS route or a regular local route.

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Why is everyone assuming you'd have to remove stops to make the route SBS? As far as I know, they didn't remove stops on the M34/A.

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Why is everyone assuming you'd have to remove stops to make the route SBS? As far as I know, they didn't remove stops on the M34/A.

They removed at least one stop between 5th & Madison that I recall, but I agree... I see no need to remove any stops on the M14... Just allow folks to board quicker and that would certainly help.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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