Daniel The Cool Posted April 8, 2015 Share #26 Posted April 8, 2015 Well this set up will remain for years to come. I don't see any major infrastructure improvements coming for the so the 18th century methods shall continue. 18th Century was the 1700s. How is this the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted April 8, 2015 Share #27 Posted April 8, 2015 18th Century was the 1700s. How is this the case? Very good... Well it seems like you're good at math. You figure it out... 21st century (today).... 18th century.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3F Posted April 8, 2015 Share #28 Posted April 8, 2015 If it's supposed to be "better" to have trains underground, it would make sense to have at least some yards underground, but I don't think any of them are. That's a lot of money and manpower wasted just to move trains around. On the IRT, 137th Street Yard and Lenox Yard are underground. On the BMT/IND, 174th Street Yard, 179th Street Yard, Church Avenue Yard, and Pitkin Yard are underground. Certainly not the majority, but definitely part of the yards are underground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted April 8, 2015 Share #29 Posted April 8, 2015 No it was the hills in Riverdale. They can park elsewhere for Yonkers Depot and have. If it's supposed to be "better" to have trains underground, it would make sense to have at least some yards underground, but I don't think any of them are. That's a lot of money and manpower wasted just to move trains around. $$$. Have you seen how big the yards are? That would be prohibitively expensive. They're also all fairly old yards, and once a yard is there, there's not much you can do about it. Just capping Hudson Yards cost the Related Companies $1B, and quite frankly it's the only yard that even remotely merits that kind of money being dumped into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted April 9, 2015 Share #30 Posted April 9, 2015 On the IRT, 137th Street Yard and Lenox Yard are underground. On the BMT/IND, 174th Street Yard, 179th Street Yard, Church Avenue Yard, and Pitkin Yard are underground. Certainly not the majority, but definitely part of the yards are underground. Lenox is at sea level (not street level), they just decked it over Pitkin Yard was also decked over, along with Mosholu. Both 179 & Church are not yards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3F Posted April 9, 2015 Share #31 Posted April 9, 2015 Lenox is at sea level (not street level), they just decked it over Pitkin Yard was also decked over, along with Mosholu. Both 179 & Church are not yards The context was that those yards and/or train storage facilities are not affected by snow and cold conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted April 9, 2015 Share #32 Posted April 9, 2015 Walking to catch your express bus in the snow and ice is a lot different than walking along the tracks in the snow and ice to retrieve your train... Thank you Fresh Pond. I think someone is trolling us by even suggesting that. How many sidewalks in the snow-prone Northeast have 600+ volt electrical conduits running adjacent to them? I have rigged and ridden scaffolds 6 stories high in the air but I can honestly say that I, personally, have never encountered anything more dangerous than a train yard covered in ice and/or snow. Even the underground yard at 137th St on the line has had ice on the roadbed from time to time. One false step in a train/rail yard under these conditions could be deadly. While a sidewalk may not be entirely flat under the snow and ice it's 1000x better than trying to walk on frozen ballast covered with snow..It doesn't matter how physically fit or agile you think you are. Snowblock, Subway Guy, or RTOman can attest to what I'm saying. It's no joking matter. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel The Cool Posted April 9, 2015 Share #33 Posted April 9, 2015 Very good... Well it seems like you're good at math. You figure it out... 21st century (today).... 18th century.... Thats not the point though I've been noticing everytime someone (MTA Staff on here in most cases) tries to correct you since they know more and have alot of experience on why certain stuff you said won't work, you still try to make an excuse on why they need to do it and to the point people are tired of trying to explain stuff to you because you don't listen. What I find funny though is you say you used the Express Bus Way more than the subway but yet you complain on why the subway isn't doing this or just after very little experience on a line or area, it's Automatically bad because you didn't like it. Well honestly try experiencing stuff more and not just a few times and then complain .The World isn't perfect either. Just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted April 9, 2015 Share #34 Posted April 9, 2015 Why are some of you even trying with this guy is beyond me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted April 9, 2015 Share #35 Posted April 9, 2015 Thank you Fresh Pond. I think someone is trolling us by even suggesting that. How many sidewalks in the snow-prone Northeast have 600+ volt electrical conduits running adjacent to them? I have rigged and ridden scaffolds 6 stories high in the air but I can honestly say that I, personally, have never encountered anything more dangerous than a train yard covered in ice and/or snow. Even the underground yard at 137th St on the line has had ice on the roadbed from time to time. One false step in a train/rail yard under these conditions could be deadly. While a sidewalk may not be entirely flat under the snow and ice it's 1000x better than trying to walk on frozen ballast covered with snow..It doesn't matter how physically fit or agile you think you are. Snowblock, Subway Guy, or RTOman can attest to what I'm saying. It's no joking matter. Carry on. Until folks do what we do when it comes to the elements "Arm Chair RTO folks" comments such as that go,in one ear and out the other TrainMaster .. I don't even bother wasting my time with them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted April 9, 2015 Share #36 Posted April 9, 2015 $$$. Have you seen how big the yards are? That would be prohibitively expensive. They're also all fairly old yards, and once a yard is there, there's not much you can do about it. Just capping Hudson Yards cost the Related Companies $1B, and quite frankly it's the only yard that even remotely merits that kind of money being dumped into it. You think I pay attention to that stuff? That's what this place is for... Most of my commuting consists of boarding an express bus, dipping my card and relaxing. Thank you Fresh Pond. I think someone is trolling us by even suggesting that. How many sidewalks in the snow-prone Northeast have 600+ volt electrical conduits running adjacent to them? I have rigged and ridden scaffolds 6 stories high in the air but I can honestly say that I, personally, have never encountered anything more dangerous than a train yard covered in ice and/or snow. Even the underground yard at 137th St on the line has had ice on the roadbed from time to time. One false step in a train/rail yard under these conditions could be deadly. While a sidewalk may not be entirely flat under the snow and ice it's 1000x better than trying to walk on frozen ballast covered with snow..It doesn't matter how physically fit or agile you think you are. Snowblock, Subway Guy, or RTOman can attest to what I'm saying. It's no joking matter. Carry on. Trolling what? What I'm trying to understand is if this cold weather plan is so effective, why did they built the yards outside to begin with if they need to store trains underground during "cold weather"? Thats not the point though I've been noticing everytime someone (MTA Staff on here in most cases) tries to correct you since they know more and have alot of experience on why certain stuff you said won't work, you still try to make an excuse on why they need to do it and to the point people are tired of trying to explain stuff to you because you don't listen. What I find funny though is you say you used the Express Bus Way more than the subway but yet you complain on why the subway isn't doing this or just after very little experience on a line or area, it's Automatically bad because you didn't like it. Well honestly try experiencing stuff more and not just a few times and then complain .The World isn't perfect either. Just saying What is there to correct me on? I'm asking questions that should have logical answers. For the record, I've been using the subway longer than you've been around. You're talking as a fan of the subway. I'm looking at things from a commuter's perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted April 9, 2015 Share #37 Posted April 9, 2015 The context was that those yards and/or train storage facilities are not affected by snow and cold conditions. Good point.... So then surely they could do something with the current yards to protect them from the elements. It seems absurd to me to have to move so many cars and end service early just to do so on some lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowblock Posted April 9, 2015 Share #38 Posted April 9, 2015 Do you want your express bus fare to go up to $10 a ride? Where do you expect NYCT to get the $$$ to put overbuilds on their yards? It only happened at Mosholu and Pitkin because a real estate company paid for the rights to build on top of it. And there's a story floating around about 207 Yard being the next one. Sorry that your damn train has to make local stops in Manhattan (ooooh, a 4 stop difference!) so that our workers don't have to risk our lives or safety to provide service during snowstorms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted April 9, 2015 Share #39 Posted April 9, 2015 Do you want your express bus fare to go up to $10 a ride? Where do you expect NYCT to get the $$$ to put overbuilds on their yards? It only happened at Mosholu and Pitkin because a real estate company paid for the rights to build on top of it. And there's a story floating around about 207 Yard being the next one. Sorry that your damn train has to make local stops in Manhattan (ooooh, a 4 stop difference!) so that our workers don't have to risk our lives or safety to provide service during snowstorms. I pay $11.50 when I take Metro-North and Hudson Rail Link bus one way, so $10.00 for the express bus isn't bad at all seeing that I get the weekly pass for $57.25 (still cheap in comparison to driving in). In any event, that's not my problem. It just seems as if this whole "cold weather" plan would've been thought about many moons ago. When did they start storing trains underground anyway? Recently or some years ago? It just seems strange that we've had cold weather since the beginning of time, and yet these scenarios weren't thought about (i.e. storing trains underground to avoid the elements)? Besides, with the inflated salaries and overtime, if they don't cut down costs, it may not matter. That's part of the reason we had the latest fare hike and another one coming in 2017... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted April 9, 2015 Share #40 Posted April 9, 2015 Union Pacific, Santa Fe, Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard,B&O, New Haven, New York Central, Pennsylvania RR/LIRR, BRT, IRT, PATH. Railroads, commuter railroads, transit systems. Freight, Passenger, trolley, what have you. Google, Wikipedia, checked each of those transportation companies. NOT ONE COVERED YARD. None, nada, zilch. The NYC subway system practices were originally based on railroad principles and still follow those ideas to a large extent.The closest match would be trolley barns. The problem there would be the conditions outside. If the streets were snow covered after a blizzard the horse-drawn and later electric trolley cars were still pretty much useless after they left the covered barns.The cold weather plan(s) used in NYCT today are based upon plans the private IRT ,BRT/BMT companies used back in the early 1920's. I guess those companies just used their existing infrastructure from the elevateds and trolley car days for car storage during bad weather. If you really think about it it wasn't until the expansion of the subway system in the Dual Contract era that there was any large scale space available underground for electric train storage. Of course there is a rather obvious way to avoid cold weather plans entirely. Short of building covered yards. We could always run maximum service 24/7 while paying out maximum inflated salaries and overtime, right? That way we wouldn't have to worry about trains making extra stops delaying the riders while waiting for Mother Nature to melt the snow and ice in the yards. A lot of what I've mentioned about the cold weather plans is documented but I am only speculating on why the private NYC companies never considered underground or covered storage. The city-owned IND never built covered subway yards either. It probably took the blizzard of '47 to make the Board of Transportation see the problem yet neither they nor the newer NYCTA never really considered covered train yards as far as I can tell. Of course if the governor or mayor ban most travel during snow storms the whole argument is moot because there won't be riders or employees to operate the trains any way. Just my opinion though. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel The Cool Posted April 9, 2015 Share #41 Posted April 9, 2015 You think I pay attention to that stuff? That's what this place is for... Most of my commuting consists of boarding an express bus, dipping my card and relaxing. Trolling what? What I'm trying to understand is if this cold weather plan is so effective, why did they built the yards outside to begin with if they need to store trains underground during "cold weather"? What is there to correct me on? I'm asking questions that should have logical answers. For the record, I've been using the subway longer than you've been around. You're talking as a fan of the subway. I'm looking at things from a commuter's perspective. Well how do you I don't commute? I don't always fan when I take the train Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTOMan Posted April 10, 2015 Share #42 Posted April 10, 2015 Union Pacific, Santa Fe, Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard,B&O, New Haven, New York Central, Pennsylvania RR/LIRR, BRT, IRT, PATH. Railroads, commuter railroads, transit systems. Freight, Passenger, trolley, what have you. Google, Wikipedia, checked each of those transportation companies. NOT ONE COVERED YARD. None, nada, zilch. The NYC subway system practices were originally based on railroad principles and still follow those ideas to a large extent.The closest match would be trolley barns. The problem there would be the conditions outside. If the streets were snow covered after a blizzard the horse-drawn and later electric trolley cars were still pretty much useless after they left the covered barns.The cold weather plan(s) used in NYCT today are based upon plans the private IRT ,BRT/BMT companies used back in the early 1920's. I guess those companies just used their existing infrastructure from the elevateds and trolley car days for car storage during bad weather. If you really think about it it wasn't until the expansion of the subway system in the Dual Contract era that there was any large scale space available underground for electric train storage. Of course there is a rather obvious way to avoid cold weather plans entirely. Short of building covered yards. We could always run maximum service 24/7 while paying out maximum inflated salaries and overtime, right? That way we wouldn't have to worry about trains making extra stops delaying the riders while waiting for Mother Nature to melt the snow and ice in the yards. A lot of what I've mentioned about the cold weather plans is documented but I am only speculating on why the private NYC companies never considered underground or covered storage. The city-owned IND never built covered subway yards either. It probably took the blizzard of '47 to make the Board of Transportation see the problem yet neither they nor the newer NYCTA never really considered covered train yards as far as I can tell. Of course if the governor or mayor ban most travel during snow storms the whole argument is moot because there won't be riders or employees to operate the trains any way. Just my opinion though. Carry on. Great post again from someone who knows what he's talking about..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted April 10, 2015 Share #43 Posted April 10, 2015 Union Pacific, Santa Fe, Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard,B&O, New Haven, New York Central, Pennsylvania RR/LIRR, BRT, IRT, PATH. Railroads, commuter railroads, transit systems. Freight, Passenger, trolley, what have you. Google, Wikipedia, checked each of those transportation companies. NOT ONE COVERED YARD. None, nada, zilch. The NYC subway system practices were originally based on railroad principles and still follow those ideas to a large extent.The closest match would be trolley barns. The problem there would be the conditions outside. If the streets were snow covered after a blizzard the horse-drawn and later electric trolley cars were still pretty much useless after they left the covered barns.The cold weather plan(s) used in NYCT today are based upon plans the private IRT ,BRT/BMT companies used back in the early 1920's. I guess those companies just used their existing infrastructure from the elevateds and trolley car days for car storage during bad weather. If you really think about it it wasn't until the expansion of the subway system in the Dual Contract era that there was any large scale space available underground for electric train storage. Of course there is a rather obvious way to avoid cold weather plans entirely. Short of building covered yards. We could always run maximum service 24/7 while paying out maximum inflated salaries and overtime, right? That way we wouldn't have to worry about trains making extra stops delaying the riders while waiting for Mother Nature to melt the snow and ice in the yards. A lot of what I've mentioned about the cold weather plans is documented but I am only speculating on why the private NYC companies never considered underground or covered storage. The city-owned IND never built covered subway yards either. It probably took the blizzard of '47 to make the Board of Transportation see the problem yet neither they nor the newer NYCTA never really considered covered train yards as far as I can tell. Of course if the governor or mayor ban most travel during snow storms the whole argument is moot because there won't be riders or employees to operate the trains any way. Just my opinion though. Carry on. So you're saying that MNRR, LIRR also has "cold weather" plans? If so I haven't ever heard of them curtailing service in the same way that NYCT does. In other words, aside from major storms, I don't hear of MNRR or the LIRR pulling trains. Why is that? Meanwhile, it only takes "cold weather" to pull say train service early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted April 10, 2015 Share #44 Posted April 10, 2015 So you're saying that MNRR, LIRR also has "cold weather" plans? If so I haven't ever heard of them curtailing service in the same way that NYCT does. In other words, aside from major storms, I don't hear of MNRR or the LIRR pulling trains. Why is that? Meanwhile, it only takes "cold weather" to pull say train service early. The is more or less a supplement route to other routes, and in the case of cold weather plans or a service disruption its the first to go. Name one stop the has on its own without any other line stopping there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3F Posted April 10, 2015 Share #45 Posted April 10, 2015 The is there for convenience; to let the run express, to provide more local service on CPW, to provide more express service on 6th Avenue, and to take passengers off of the crowded . It's not necessary but it provides immense relief to other lines, which is why it's not preferable to end it during rush hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted April 10, 2015 Share #46 Posted April 10, 2015 The is there for convenience; to let the run express, to provide more local service on CPW, to provide more express service on 6th Avenue, and to take passengers off of the crowded . It's not necessary but it provides immense relief to other lines, which is why it's not preferable to end it during rush hour. Actually it is necessary. I'm still of the belief that the should run on weekends too, and many at a town hall meeting I went to in Sheepshead Bay a few years ago said the same thing. I can attest to VERY long waits along 6th Avenue on weekends for the and with other lines that the helps out on, hence why I avoid the 6th Avenue line as much as possible on weekends. I have also heard from people in the Bronx that they would like express service on weekends on the as it CRAWLS to Manhattan. It is certainly something that should be looked at. The did expand the to run later during the week, which was long overdue. The is more or less a supplement route to other routes, and in the case of cold weather plans or a service disruption its the first to go. Name one stop the has on its own without any other line stopping there... That's not the point. The runs like crap along Central Park West, hence why the shouldn't be ended early. They don't beef up the when they stop running the early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollOver Posted April 10, 2015 Share #47 Posted April 10, 2015 That's not the point. The runs like crap along Central Park West, hence why the shouldn't be ended early. They don't beef up the when they stop running the early. Where do you think these extra trains and crews would come from exactly? Do you also think that they would spend alot of money just to beef up service on the entire line just for 3 more hours (until 11 pm)? All for Central Park West whenever they end the early? Yeah right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted April 10, 2015 Share #48 Posted April 10, 2015 So you're saying that MNRR, LIRR also has "cold weather" plans? If so I haven't ever heard of them curtailing service in the same way that NYCT does. In other words, aside from major storms, I don't hear of MNRR or the LIRR pulling trains. Why is that? Meanwhile, it only takes "cold weather" to pull say train service early. That short term memory loss thing is kicking in again, isn't it? You seem to forget there aren't many tunnels for underground storage on the LIRR and Metro-North. So, you tell me, what would be the benefit of storing trains on outdoor tracks that are prone to snow and/or ice when they could simply leave them in the yards and get the same results? The B ends early during CWPs because as everyone else has said, it's a supplemental line. After the PM rush hour, trains not needed for service are stored on the express tracks, including those on the 6th Ave and 8th Ave lines. Rather than have four lines on the local track creating one hell of a bottleneck, it makes more sense to suspend the B and keep service moving as swiftly as possible. When the V and W ran, they were treated the same way. Finally, since I'm sure you're not sitting on several billion dollars to cover the many outdoor yards, it would do really well to not pitch moronic ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted April 10, 2015 Share #49 Posted April 10, 2015 So you're saying that MNRR, LIRR also has "cold weather" plans? If so I haven't ever heard of them curtailing service in the same way that NYCT does. In other words, aside from major storms, I don't hear of MNRR or the LIRR pulling trains. Why is that? Meanwhile, it only takes "cold weather" to pull say train service early. I never said the railroads (MNRR,LIRR) had cold weather plans. I said the railroads across the US didn't have covered railyards in the past and the mass transit systems followed that practice. I also pointed out that the subway cold weather plans used today were variants of the plans the IRT and BRT/BMT used in the past. I speculated on how those plans came about. Is that clear enough for you? Thank you Lance. I see that you and a few others understood what I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3216068E Posted April 10, 2015 Share #50 Posted April 10, 2015 Actually it is necessary. I'm still of the belief that the should run on weekends too, and many at a town hall meeting I went to in Sheepshead Bay a few years ago said the same thing. I can attest to VERY long waits along 6th Avenue on weekends for the and with other lines that the helps out on, hence why I avoid the 6th Avenue line as much as possible on weekends. I have also heard from people in the Bronx that they would like express service on weekends on the as it CRAWLS to Manhattan. It is certainly something that should be looked at. The did expand the to run later during the week, which was long overdue. That's not the point. The runs like crap along Central Park West, hence why the shouldn't be ended early. They don't beef up the when they stop running the early. the doesn't run like crap along central park west (it does breakdown alot but it doesn't run like crap) the just needs extra trains that's all and IMO it's good that and train service ends when it does that way the R32s can get some rest and the wouldn't be congestion between the in CPW along with the timers then they would all be really crawling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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