R211 Discussion Thread

[NBTA]

18 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

Yes!! Thank you for sharing this!! 

The reason why there was a car shortage in 2010 was because the MTA was too focused on what was happening at that time, instead on focusing on the future.

Ridership is still low, but it is higher than it was last summer and ridership will continue to increase.

The r68's are currently in much better shape than the r46's, but will it stay that way in 2028, when all r68's hit 40 years??

We can talk about that in 2027. But the way they looking, if the 62/As can do it (they pushing 40 right now), then the 68/As can do it as well (in my opinion).

[Storm]

The  will probably get the money from the goverment.

There WILL NOT be enough r211's to replace all of the r68's, because the whole order just barely replaces all r46's.

The A division will be 100% tech by the end of the 2020 decade, The r68's will be replaced next decade.

The  can only get CBTC when the r262's come out, and thats not until 2027-2030.

The upcoming CBTC plans are: 

Queens Blvd (  )

8th Avenue (  )

Archer Avenue (  )

Crosstown (  )

Astoria (  )

Lexington (  )

63rd street (  )

which means that the  will get r68's as being the only line that isnt planned for CBTC

Credits go to Wikipedia

[R32 3838]

12 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

I'm pretty sure Kawasaki does not have the space nor personnel to produce all these extra R211s. They were already considered pretty much out of the running for the R262 contract...

I can see Alstom Grabbing the R262 and next B division Orders.

[Storm]

18 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

I can see Alstom Grabbing the R262 and next B division Orders.

I remember back in 2010, Alstom was running 3 months late on the R160 delivery order. If the  does let alstom take the R262 and/or the R268 order, they'd have to trust that Alstom doesnt run late in the next orders. Back to the R211's, I can see the  exercising the order, getting funds from the 2020-2024 capital program. The reason why I put which lines will get CBTC is because those lines would have to be 100% tech. (I forgot broadway ) 

fastforward.mta.info

 

[subwaycommuter1983]

4 hours ago, Stormxx said:

I remember back in 2010, Alstom was running 3 months late on the R160 delivery order. If the  does let alstom take the R262 and/or the R268 order, they'd have to trust that Alstom doesnt run late in the next orders. Back to the R211's, I can see the  exercising the order, getting funds from the 2020-2024 capital program. The reason why I put which lines will get CBTC is because those lines would have to be 100% tech. (I forgot broadway ) 

fastforward.mta.info

 

They better get the money. The MTA cannot continue to make the same mistakes that they made in 2010, which lead to huge car shortage and the r32's and r42's running way past their retirement time.

Yes, with good maintenance, the r62s and r68's can run past their retirement. However, there is a big sense of urgency on behalf of riders to have CBTC installed in the entire system. Having CBTC installed in the entire system will require the whole subway fleet to be 100% NTT.

In terms of ridership, I really doubt that it will take years for ridership to be back to pre pandemic levels. People are tired of staying home. The trains are more crowded now than they were last summer and it will only take months before everyone who needs to be vaccinated gets the vaccine. I would not be surprised if by the end of the year, ridership is back to pre pandemic levels.

That's why the MTA needs to purchase all +1,500 r211's and speed things up with CBTC. It would be great if the whole system is CBTC ready by 2030 (3 years later than Byford's deadline).

[R32 3838]

1 hour ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

They better get the money. The MTA cannot continue to make the same mistakes that they made in 2010, which lead to huge car shortage and the r32's and r42's running way past their retirement time.

Yes, with good maintenance, the r62s and r68's can run past their retirement. However, there is a big sense of urgency on behalf of riders to have CBTC installed in the entire system. Having CBTC installed in the entire system will require the whole subway fleet to be 100% NTT.

In terms of ridership, I really doubt that it will take years for ridership to be back to pre pandemic levels. People are tired of staying home. The trains are more crowded now than they were last summer and it will only take months before everyone who needs to be vaccinated gets the vaccine. I would not be surprised if by the end of the year, ridership is back to pre pandemic levels.

That's why the MTA needs to purchase all +1,500 r211's and speed things up with CBTC. It would be great if the whole system is CBTC ready by 2030 (3 years later than Byford's deadline).

I would say by spring to fall 2022 ridership would go back to near pre pandemic levels, too many druggies and bums in the system making people have 2nd thoughts. plus a good portion of office jobs are staying remote as it saves their business lots of money, so I would say give it about a year and a half.

 

 

 

 

[R68ACTrain]

On 1/19/2021 at 3:18 PM, R32 3838 said:

This Was said by that's why the B end of the cars are configured the way they are. Just look at how they there no seats and a hump on both sides.

 

A good chunk of those r160's are going back. And it wouldn't be a waste of time, CBTC Training isn't a waste of time. by the time the option order cars come in, it'll be time to swap those r160's back to ether CI or somewhere else.

 

From the way it looks like, Pitkin, Jamaica and Coney Island will get these cars ENY will get the 8 car units for the

 

5001-5480 is open as well, I could see them use 5001-5480 as well

they can use 5481-5664 once all the r46's are completely gone

 

I keep telling you guys, Jamaica will get a piece of this order.

 

open gangways is the obvious reason, are two lines that they're focused on getting those cars to. this is why I think Jamaica would get the r211T while the r211A's would be split between pitkin and coney (Base order) The could see the open gangway cars as well.

 

Also it's smart to make the 100% tech first vs. the CI lines because of upcoming CBTC plus if anything goes down on 8th ave, they can use 53rd st, (currently they can't now since its CBTC active now)

Wait hold up, why would 5001-5200 be open? I feel that the R211s would use R32-R42 numbers only. And be aware that only 20 R211T's would be made, and that's only 4 5-car sets, I see comments about them running on the , now I see this one about the now. They mine as well make the R211Ts maybe like 400 cars or sum like that. But the R211s aren't even designated to replace the R68/As so 5001-5200 is not open. If anything, they could use the NYCT R44 numbers.

[Around the Horn]

In my personal opinion I see 3400-4886 for the R211s when all is said and done with the R262s using 5201-6300 and then the 1000s vacated by the R62s they would be replacing. I could then see a R68/A replacement contract using the 2000s.

[bulk88]

On 1/25/2021 at 7:21 AM, Railfanner Mario said:

Most of the BMT/IND system either has Transponders/antennas on the Tracks and wall to get ready for the NTT to start CBTC testing to get things done more quickly 

Track transponders in non-CBTC zones are used for announcements supposedly ATM. Possibly one day (nope, this is the MTA) they will be used for PSRs (GT removal)/vital. 95/86 street had antennas near the ceiling with coax. They didn't look like Transit Wireless ones, but the CBTC ones. Perhaps the MTA is planning to make 95/86 terminal a CBTC zone for interlocking/headway management, or R211s need "wifi" at their terminals for FIND/audio annoucements updates. I know the MTA has over the decades pretended they will make a system wide "red phone" PA in station and on-board between stations. Pointy haired boss demands a "red phone" for since the mask and bag PSAs dont play enough and his protege's job is to manually give a NYPD bag warning every 5 minutes since the PSAs only play every 10 minutes just in case. R211 spec demands in-car cameras but says the connection to outside world is TBA. Sounds like union rules that only an journeyman electrician can replay a CCTV video for law enforcement with a cable, in the yard, ONLY, not a desk jockey from a desktop over a wireless network. I know the TransitWireless system does NOT always have wifi at elevated stations, and the beacons are bluetooth low energy, not capable of multimedia, so smells like possibly an LTE modem will be required in R211s. Some of the Arrival screens are ethernet only, no wifi.

Whatever happened to the UWB 7/L system? All rolling stock are radio relay nodes head car to last car, all tunnel nodes are wireless repeaters (no wired backhaul). Somewhere there is a wired connection to a zone controller, but all the nodes need is 120v, not 120v+fiber.

[R32 3838]

5 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

Wait hold up, why would 5001-5200 be open? I feel that the R211s would use R32-R42 numbers only. And be aware that only 20 R211T's would be made, and that's only 4 5-car sets, I see comments about them running on the , now I see this one about the now. They mine as well make the R211Ts maybe like 400 cars or sum like that. But the R211s aren't even designated to replace the R68/As so 5001-5200 is not open. If anything, they could use the NYCT R44 numbers.

read a few posts back, I corrected my mistake. I ment 5201 and up.

 

5 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

In my personal opinion I see 3400-4886 for the R211s when all is said and done with the R262s using 5201-6300 and then the 1000s vacated by the R62s they would be replacing. I could then see a R68/A replacement contract using the 2000s.

 

I don't think they'll use any of the r32 numbers since they're still on property and even if they leave the property by next year or whenever, it might be too soon. It depends on when they will leave the property.

I could see them Using 5201-5667. But if they do use the r32 numbers it'll be option order 2 (If the r32's are off the property by then) which would start from 3330 to 4059 (Available Numbers)

[Around the Horn]

2 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

I don't think they'll use any of the r32 numbers since they're still on property and even if they leave the property by next year or whenever, it might be too soon. It depends on when they will leave the property.

I could see them Using 5201-5667. But if they do use the r32 numbers it'll be option order 2 (If the r32's are off the property by then) which would start from 3330 to 4059 (Available Numbers)

3400-4039 is exactly the same amount of cars as option 1 which is why I think they'll use it. Any R32s on the property by then can just get a 1 in front of the number like the Redbirds did when the R160 option orders came in since they would most likely only see use as work trains.

[R32 3838]

2 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

3400-4039 is exactly the same amount of cars as option 1 which is why I think they'll use it. Any R32s on the property by then can just get a 1 in front of the number like the Redbirds did when the R160 option orders came in since they would most likely only see use as work trains.

option 1 is likely to be 4500-4999, 5201-5340 (These Numbers are open)

Also the open gangway cars could be different numbers all together.

[TheNewYorkElevated]

My prediction for the B Division fleet once the R211s hit the property: 

-The Base Order will be reserved for the , , , ,  and  lines to retire the R46s for good. The ,  and  will also use some of the 211s as well alongside the R160s they have on hand at Jamaica, making them completely NTT lines. There could be a chance that the  and  might get the R211s to retire some R68s if the  wants to have the B Division fully modernized by the end of this decade, although the 68s will likely by retired by a new train car contract. The R32s currently on reserve are completely done for good. The , , ,  and  will receive the open gangway sets due to these lines having high ridership. 

-If the Option order is exercised, the ,  and even  lines will receive the four car sets. 

-R160s will be bumped out to service on the  and  trains more often. 

-R179s will more or less stay as is. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by TheNewYorkElevated

[R68ACTrain]

I just need everyone to be aware that the R211T's will only be 20 cars, because the Kawasaki website only says 20, and that is that. It just make sense for both trainsets to be assigned to one yard, for one line. And imo, that should be assigned to the Jamaica Yard. The  is the IND's most busiest line, and is on the top 4 busiest lines systemwide. It would be conveinent to put the R211T's on the busiest line of the system. But we never know, they might assign to Pitkin, 207, Coney Island, or maybe even Concourse. 

[R68ACTrain]

28 minutes ago, TheNewYorkElevated said:

My prediction for the B Division fleet once the R211s hit the property: 

-The Base Order will be reserved for the , , , ,  and  lines to retire the R46s for good. The ,  and  will also use some of the 211s as well alongside the R160s they have on hand at Jamaica, making them completely NTT lines. There could be a chance that the  and  might get the R211s to retire some R68s if the  wants to have the B Division fully modernized by the end of this decade, although the 68s will likely by retired by a new train car contract. The R32s currently on reserve are completely done for good. The , , ,  and  will receive the open gangway sets due to these lines having high ridership. 

-If the Option order is exercised, the ,  and even  lines will receive the four car sets. 

-R160s will be bumped out to service on the  and  trains more often. 

-R179s will more or less stay as is. 

As I said above, the R211T's will only be 20 cars. They mine as well run on different lines on different days because it's either that, or there's gonna be alot of fleet swaps when the R211s come in. No matter what, the R211s will have to be configured into 4 car sets.  What I think should happen is lists as follows:

The first 535 cars should go to Coney Island because the R46s over there are not doing as well as the R46s at 207th and Pitkin. Pretty much every line over there is gonna use them.

Though the  and  need them because they operate R46s. After those R46s are gone, the next lines to receive the R211s are the  and Rockaway . After CBTC is completely installed on QBL, or when all R46s are retired, then the  and those few 's stored there. Jamaica is not a priority for the R211s because all 3 lines are full NTT. 

And when the 4-car 211s start to arrive, if the  doesn't operate 600ft trains, then that, the  and  could use the 4-car 211s, depending on how many are being built. But, again ENY is not a priority because no R32s are there, and they have all R160A-1s which is 372 cars. Plus 200 R143s, AND 100  R179s. ENY's fleet in total is 672 cars. Then again, depending on how many extra's are available is the  still operates 480ft's, then the rest can go to ENY. 

Regarding your R160 comment for the  and , I disagree with that because why give them more trains when the old ones are being phased out, and new ones are coming in. But I'm pretty sure the R211s, and R179's would be fine by themselves, or transfer all R179's to 207, and the 4-car R211s could all go ENY.

 

 

 

[R68ACTrain]

5 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

option 1 is likely to be 4500-4999, 5201-5340 (These Numbers are open)

Also the open gangway cars could be different numbers all together.

Again, only 20 cars.

[Storm]

50 minutes ago, TheNewYorkElevated said:

My prediction for the B Division fleet once the R211s hit the property: 

-The Base Order will be reserved for the , , , ,  and  lines to retire the R46s for good. The ,  and  will also use some of the 211s as well alongside the R160s they have on hand at Jamaica, making them completely NTT lines. There could be a chance that the  and  might get the R211s to retire some R68s if the  wants to have the B Division fully modernized by the end of this decade, although the 68s will likely by retired by a new train car contract. The R32s currently on reserve are completely done for good. The , , ,  and  will receive the open gangway sets due to these lines having high ridership. 

-If the Option order is exercised, the ,  and even  lines will receive the four car sets. 

-R160s will be bumped out to service on the  and  trains more often. 

-R179s will more or less stay as is. 

Not all R160's will stay at Jamaica because of the R211T's. They'd swap out about 600 of the R160's in Jamaica for 700 R211T's. These cars would go on service on the . Probably all of the R160B's (Alstom and Siemens) will be swapped out. Now for the lines with the R46's and QBL. The  will be 85% R211 and 15% R179. The  will be 90% R160 siemens and 10% R179. The  will be 75% R211's and 25% R160. The  would be 95% R160A-1 and 5% R211. The  would be 60% R211, 30% R160B and 10% R68. The  would be 90% R211 and 10% R160. Those are my predictions.

[R68ACTrain]

16 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

In my personal opinion I see 3400-4886 for the R211s when all is said and done with the R262s using 5201-6300 and then the 1000s vacated by the R62s they would be replacing. I could then see a R68/A replacement contract using the 2000s.

They might do the same thing with how they did the R62 order, R62 >> R262, R62A >> R262A, with few differences train system wise 🤷‍♂️. But the R211s should use the R32, R38, R40A/S/M, R42, and R44 numbers. 3348-4949. That is 1,501 cars. Which is close to the number of R211s if all options are exercised, just by 111 cars. But also in my opinion the R262s should use 1251-2495. The R62/A order combined was a total of 1,150, and the total for my 262 numbers, are 1,245 cars, which is the entire R62/A fleet, plus 75 extra cars.

[TheNewYorkElevated]

48 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

Regarding your R160 comment for the  and , I disagree with that because why give them more trains when the old ones are being phased out, and new ones are coming in. But I'm pretty sure the R211s, and R179's would be fine by themselves, or transfer all R179's to 207, and the 4-car R211s could all go ENY.

The reason why I said that more R160s will be bumped out to the  and  is because the  has been recently struggling with service with the R46s it is using currently that is shared with the , not to mention the R46 fleet itself is struggling in terms of serving four time lines right now. With the R211s and R179s, full service can be provided more properly on both lines. It's a possibility that the R179s could end up being an  and  train only subway car like the R44s (the ones that started this whole fleet shortage crisis when they were retired due to severe frame rot issues 10 and a half years ago), although that could change if 179s end up having CBTC equipment installed. 

[R68ACTrain]

On 1/21/2021 at 11:30 AM, Stormxx said:

well, I mean, maybe. The the R160b's from Coney could go onto the  for service, while retiring the SMEE's on the . Any base order cars would be split between Pitkin and C.I, because the primary goal of the r211 order is to replace all remaining r46's. I agree with you that only 260 cars from Jamaica are enough to run the , so if we were to take that into consideration, i think 39% of the Siemens should go to service on the , and the remaining siemens should go to C.I for service on the . Any base order cars coming to coney should go directly to the , because the whole fleet is r46. Now, Jamaica should keep about 80% of its alstoms, and the other 20% should go to Coney. So, in total, the  would have 440 siemens and 200 alstom to run on the , plus some r68/a's. Now for the . If this were to happen, they would have let go about 60% of their r160s.  I think they should get all of option order 1, and a little of option 2. Any additional 4 car units or 5 car units, could go to ENY for the  or concourse for the . This is a prediction, not the truth.

Retiring the R46's, off the  R68's are doing really good right now, and they can stay another decade. Maybe 2. The R68's are just gonna be displaced off to another line.

[subwaycommuter1983]

5 hours ago, TheNewYorkElevated said:

My prediction for the B Division fleet once the R211s hit the property: 

-The Base Order will be reserved for the , , , ,  and  lines to retire the R46s for good. The ,  and  will also use some of the 211s as well alongside the R160s they have on hand at Jamaica, making them completely NTT lines. There could be a chance that the  and  might get the R211s to retire some R68s if the  wants to have the B Division fully modernized by the end of this decade, although the 68s will likely by retired by a new train car contract. The R32s currently on reserve are completely done for good. The , , ,  and  will receive the open gangway sets due to these lines having high ridership. 

-If the Option order is exercised, the ,  and even  lines will receive the four car sets. 

-R160s will be bumped out to service on the  and  trains more often. 

-R179s will more or less stay as is. 

It's a good prediction.

I just hope that the MTA doesn't use this pandemic as an excuse to scale back on the number of r211's.

Riders don't want a 2010 2.0

Check out this article that came out today.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2021/01/27/mta-suspends-bulk-of--51b-capital-construction-plan-due-to-financial-troubles

[R32 3838]

You guys to fail to realize, The priority is to make the 100% tech. Yes I predicted that the Base order to Pitkin and Coney island, But It would make sense to give pitkin the whole base order (If they get open gangway cars in the future, then half of those standard cars could be transferred)  . 8th Ave is the next to get CBTC (Might be getting delayed) But 53rd st has its signals disabled (If they do a reroute).

the R179's are supposed to be equipped with CBTC next year.

Coney Island isn't a priority for new cars (They would get some Obviously because of politics and the ) But CI doesn't need no more than 300 cars.

 

and one question why do you people want the R160's to be bumped to the so damn bad, Screw Coney, the should be number 1 priority for new trains period.

The only thing that would make sense is to send the siemens R160's to 207th for the . 260 cars is enough for full length trains and spares plus 2-3 sets could run on the as put ins.

 

let Pitkin be R179's and R211's

5 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

I just need everyone to be aware that the R211T's will only be 20 cars, because the Kawasaki website only says 20, and that is that. It just make sense for both trainsets to be assigned to one yard, for one line. And imo, that should be assigned to the Jamaica Yard. The  is the IND's most busiest line, and is on the top 4 busiest lines systemwide. It would be conveinent to put the R211T's on the busiest line of the system. But we never know, they might assign to Pitkin, 207, Coney Island, or maybe even Concourse. 

the Open Gangway cars could be in the option order ( has to decide after the 20 R211T's test the whole system including in passenger service testing and feedback) before they decide to make the option order R211T's. so it's not just 20 cars. it's 20 for the base order and if they pass, they'll order more.

 

[LGA Link N Train]

25 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

You guys to fail to realize, The priority is to make the 100% tech. Yes I predicted that the Base order to Pitkin and Coney island, But It would make sense to give pitkin the whole base order (If they get open gangway cars in the future, then half of those standard cars could be transferred)  . 8th Ave is the next to get CBTC (Might be getting delayed) But 53rd st has its signals disabled (If they do a reroute).

the R179's are supposed to be equipped with CBTC next year.

Coney Island isn't a priority for new cars (They would get some Obviously because of politics and the ) But CI doesn't need no more than 300 cars.

 

and one question why do you people want the R160's to be bumped to the so damn bad, Screw Coney, the should be number 1 priority for new trains period.

The only thing that would make sense is to send the siemens R160's to 207th for the . 260 cars is enough for full length trains and spares plus 2-3 sets could run on the as put ins.

 

let Pitkin be R179's and R211's

This is what I’ve been thinking of the entire time. Like you said, from a practical sense, it makes sense to end the entire base order of R211’s (apart from the ones going to Staten Island Of Course) leaving about 460 cars going to 207th. In my opinion, this might be enough cars to displace all of the 8 car R179’s to either East New York or Coney Island for the , permanently making the Train full length. (Now the 8 car  debate is a whole debate in of itself). That should retire all of the R46’s from 207th/Pitkin, and assuming that the  could ever get 8 car trains, that’d leave about enough 68’s to run on the  and . I’m not going to account for the Option orders and the possibility of the 211T’s being successful as that’s all up in the air at this current moment.

[R32 3838]

2 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This is what I’ve been thinking of the entire time. Like you said, from a practical sense, it makes sense to end the entire base order of R211’s (apart from the ones going to Staten Island Of Course) leaving about 460 cars going to 207th. In my opinion, this might be enough cars to displace all of the 8 car R179’s to either East New York or Coney Island for the , permanently making the Train full length. (Now the 8 car  debate is a whole debate in of itself). That should retire all of the R46’s from 207th/Pitkin, and assuming that the  could ever get 8 car trains, that’d leave about enough 68’s to run on the  and . I’m not going to account for the Option orders and the possibility of the 211T’s being successful as that’s all up in the air at this current moment.

440 cars

the 20 R211T's would be based out of Jamaica

[LGA Link N Train]

Just now, R32 3838 said:

440 cars

the 20 R211T's would be based out of Jamaica

440 “normal” cars, correct? Cause I lumped in the 211A and 211T’s together, but given QBL’s service levels, I’d guess it’d make more sense to put them on QBL. Finally, (hopefully) another thing worth fanning on my home line.