R211 Discussion Thread

[R32 3838]

1 minute ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

440 “normal” cars, correct? Cause I lumped in the 211A and 211T’s together, but given QBL’s service levels, I’d guess it’d make more sense to put them on QBL. Finally, (hopefully) another thing worth fanning on my home line. 

yea 440 normal cars, 20 R211T cars and 75 R211S cars

This is why I think the Majority of the open gangway cars (If they go through with ordering them in the option order) would go to Jamaica. it would make sense, no one is looking at the size of the doors and the open gangway as a big factor on these cars being for the

[Storm]

32 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This is what I’ve been thinking of the entire time. Like you said, from a practical sense, it makes sense to end the entire base order of R211’s (apart from the ones going to Staten Island Of Course) leaving about 460 cars going to 207th. In my opinion, this might be enough cars to displace all of the 8 car R179’s to either East New York or Coney Island for the , permanently making the Train full length. (Now the 8 car  debate is a whole debate in of itself). That should retire all of the R46’s from 207th/Pitkin, and assuming that the  could ever get 8 car trains, that’d leave about enough 68’s to run on the  and . I’m not going to account for the Option orders and the possibility of the 211T’s being successful as that’s all up in the air at this current moment.

Yes. If they only order the base order then the  will be 100% tech and the  wont. Almost every line except the  and  is planned to get CBTC, so the  have to be 100% NTT. 

[rbrome]

On 1/25/2021 at 1:54 AM, Vulturious said:

I'm hoping they improve on that train from the R211's such as the displays for example, like having them as LCD displays instead of LED displays. The LED displays are a disappointment on the R211's with the route bullet just looking too small which could've been bigger, the destination display on the front in general is too small as well (the mockup was bigger than that) the side displays also being LED's didn't need to be a thing. I'm mainly just disappointed with displays honestly, I do like the FIND being LCD and how it's on every door which is convenient. I guess the storm door window could've been wider, I don't know why it's narrow as hell. I also just realized there wasn't a leaked photo about the overhead displays in the interior of the train, I'm assuming it's also LED which is going to be a disappointment. If it's LCD, that would be very surprising.

LCDs are appropriate for interior displays that are viewed from a short distance, such as the "FIND" displays. You don't need a ton of brightness in that setting, and the high resolution of LCDs allow you to display all kinds of various information with clarity, density, and total flexibility. 

But LCDs are simply not appropriate for exterior displays. They lack the brightness and contrast necessary to be seen well in sunlight. And you don't need high resolution for fine graphics when you're only displaying a route bullet or destination, etc., which is all you can/should display on a sign designed to be read from a distance and in motion. LEDs are much more appropriate for any exterior application.

LED matrix panels come in nearly infinite shapes, sizes, densities, and brightness levels these days. So it might be fair to say the exterior LED displays should be brighter, larger, or higher-resolution. But LED is the correct technology choice for the exterior displays.

[R68ACTrain]

On 1/24/2021 at 2:28 PM, R32 3838 said:

we getting a total of 1,612 cars, with 1,537 of them being for the subway.

 

I do agree that we need to replace just about everything. No one understands the mental gymnastics that has to go through with car assignments to keep older subway cars off CBTC active areas. with them wanting to make Astoria CBTC with it ending at 57th/7th is only gonna make things more complicated.

 

this means the will be the only lines that would have to keep R68's (since 6th ave CBTC is put on hold) while the as well as the has to be 100% tech trains. and even then if something goes down on 6th ave, the is screwed or it has to go up broadway to 96th st now.

 

right now I think the priority is to to make the 100% tech. The 53rd st tube has its signals covered up. So if anything happens now, the or can't use 53rd st since their cars aren't cbtc active on top of using R46's.

 

 

I've always wondered, what happens if a SMEE goes on a CBTC activated signal?

[Storm]

 It was a bad option to retire the R32's so early, because they REALLY need the 4 car sets on the  instead of the  FOR NOW. The R46's are being overworked in Coney, it has gotten a little messy. The R211's are the time for when the  seals this Car shortage on the B division once and for all. , please don't screw up the R211 order like you did on the R160 order. We can all agree that the T's will go to Jamaica.

My guess for the numbers given back to Coney (R160)

9233-9592 (360)

8973-9102 (130)

9103-9232 (130)

Guesses for The R211's (numbers, and im also using R32 numbers as well)

R211A base order- 4060-4499 (440)

R211T base order- 3350-3370 (20)

R211S- 670-745 (75)

R211 option order #1 (T or A)  3370-4010 (640)

R211 option order #2 (T or A) 4011-4059 (48) and 4500-4889 (389)

 

50 minutes ago, R68ACTrain said:

I've always wondered, what happens if a SMEE goes on a CBTC activated signal?

 It would mess up the CBTC because they wouldnt know a train was even there.

[VIP]

I just want to independently add... where is anyone getting that “R160’s are getting transferred back to Coney Island from Jamaica”... what may sound “logical” or a “good idea” may not be exactly what it is. As far as I know, we spent money transferring the R160’s from Coney Island to Jamaica and retrofitting them to a specific CBTC package. Why spend unnecessary money to transfer cars back because newer cars are coming in? The “wider doors” reason is still not enough to justify where the R160’s will go or not because ridership is way down anyway (and probably won’t rise until the pandemic is written in history books). Wherever the R46’s are is where the R211’s will go to directly replace them. The open gangway (R211T - 20 cars) will likely be just that; a test train. They’ll test those cars for months at a time and be based out of various B division yards. Not just for the  or just for the  and not just for the . 

[subwaycommuter1983]

7 hours ago, R68ACTrain said:

I've always wondered, what happens if a SMEE goes on a CBTC activated signal?

I wonder about that too.

Is there a way that the r62s and r68's can be equipped with CBTC?

Can CBTC be temporarily disabled after it's been activated?

In the meantime, the MTA suspended a bulk of it's current capital program, which unfortunately will impact CBTC. SMH!!! Hopefully, it doesn't impact the r211's.

[R32 3838]

3 hours ago, VIP said:

I just want to independently add... where is anyone getting that “R160’s are getting transferred back to Coney Island from Jamaica”... what may sound “logical” or a “good idea” may not be exactly what it is. As far as I know, we spent money transferring the R160’s from Coney Island to Jamaica and retrofitting them to a specific CBTC package. Why spend unnecessary money to transfer cars back because newer cars are coming in? The “wider doors” reason is still not enough to justify where the R160’s will go or not because ridership is way down anyway (and probably won’t rise until the pandemic is written in history books). Wherever the R46’s are is where the R211’s will go to directly replace them. The open gangway (R211T - 20 cars) will likely be just that; a test train. They’ll test those cars for months at a time and be based out of various B division yards. Not just for the  or just for the  and not just for the . 

 

By the time Jamaica would get these cars, it'll be in 2024-25 if they get option orders. It isn't a waste of money, Jamaica isn't keeping all of those r160's in 4-6 years from now. isn't that stupid. the ridership is still high on the . i ride it everyday, 20 R211T's isn't gonna be a waste of money when you look at the 2 busiest lines in the B Division. they'll test them everywhere but I bet once they finish and they go forward with ordering more of these cars. i bet they'll be on the .

 

By your logic the should have gotten r160's in 2008-2010 since they had cars that needed to be replaced.

 

It's funny that everytime we get new cars we assume that 100% of them would go to yards that have the cars that needed to be replaced which isn't 100% True. The is a prime example of that (before the r179's) . pitkin and 207th got Jamaica leftovers instead of new cars, (50% of those r32's were former pitkin cars but jamaica beat them to shit).

R211's have CBTC built into them straight from the factory, If that weren't the case jamaica wouldn't get these cars.

 

 

 

 

[VIP]

3 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

 

By the time Jamaica would get these cars, it'll be in 2024-25 if they get option orders. It isn't a waste of money, Jamaica isn't keeping all of those r160's in 4-6 years from now. isn't that stupid. the ridership is still high on the . i ride it everyday, 20 R211T's isn't gonna be a waste of money when you look at the 2 busiest lines in the B Division. they'll test them everywhere but I bet once they finish and they go forward with ordering more of these cars. i bet they'll be on the .

 

By your logic the should have gotten r160's in 2008-2010 since they had cars that needed to be replaced.

 

It's funny that everytime we get new cars we assume that 100% of them would go to yards that have the cars that needed to be replaced which isn't 100% True. The is a prime example of that (before the r179's) . pitkin and 207th got Jamaica leftovers instead of new cars, (50% of those r32's were former pitkin cars but jamaica beat them to shit).

R211's have CBTC built into them straight from the factory, If that weren't the case jamaica wouldn't get these cars.

 

 

 

 

That’s a very good observation and I agree that the R211T has to be assigned to lines with the heavier ridership. But knowing Car equipment, they’re thinking financially and not typically “ridership” or which yards have what, unfortunately. 

[R32 3838]

Just now, VIP said:

That’s a very good observation and I agree that the R211T has to be assigned to lines with the heavier ridership. But knowing Car equipment, they’re thinking financially and not typically “ridership” or which yards have what, unfortunately. 

 

the siemens at jamaica for example, are a different breed. Those I know will be leaving Jamaica since they have a different propulsion system. the r211's are all gonna be Alstom propulsion (A newer one, not the ONIX one). having the siemens in one yard like 207th st would isolate those cars to 1 barn which would not only make sense but would save money since all of those propulsion parts would be at one barn and if the is full length, 260 cars is more than enough since the would use 180 cars out of 260.

 

IMO Coney shouldn't get a piece of this order but we know they are, the ridership before the pandemic was very high so it would make sense for that group of 211's to go to the

has to test the r211T's before they make a Decision on the option order. so they only have about a year in a half to make that decision.

 

I don't think it'll cost them because by the time they have to re swap cars, it'll be 3 to 5 years from now.

[Maxwell179]

does anyone have an pictures of the R211 ?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 1/27/2021 at 3:37 PM, rbrome said:

LCDs are appropriate for interior displays that are viewed from a short distance, such as the "FIND" displays. You don't need a ton of brightness in that setting, and the high resolution of LCDs allow you to display all kinds of various information with clarity, density, and total flexibility. 

But LCDs are simply not appropriate for exterior displays. They lack the brightness and contrast necessary to be seen well in sunlight. And you don't need high resolution for fine graphics when you're only displaying a route bullet or destination, etc., which is all you can/should display on a sign designed to be read from a distance and in motion. LEDs are much more appropriate for any exterior application.

LED matrix panels come in nearly infinite shapes, sizes, densities, and brightness levels these days. So it might be fair to say the exterior LED displays should be brighter, larger, or higher-resolution. But LED is the correct technology choice for the exterior displays.

 

I wonder if that means we’re at a point where LED matrix panels can approximate the look of the side destination roll signs on the R44s and R46s pre-GOH. Has LED technology advanced to the point where it can look something like this?

Or this?

I feel like the answer is yes, but given how the bean counters’ wishes always seem to prevail at the MTA, they probably thought nicer LED panels were too expensive and opted for what we saw a few pages back. 

4 hours ago, VIP said:

I just want to independently add... where is anyone getting that “R160’s are getting transferred back to Coney Island from Jamaica”... what may sound “logical” or a “good idea” may not be exactly what it is. As far as I know, we spent money transferring the R160’s from Coney Island to Jamaica and retrofitting them to a specific CBTC package. Why spend unnecessary money to transfer cars back because newer cars are coming in? The “wider doors” reason is still not enough to justify where the R160’s will go or not because ridership is way down anyway (and probably won’t rise until the pandemic is written in history books). Wherever the R46’s are is where the R211’s will go to directly replace them. The open gangway (R211T - 20 cars) will likely be just that; a test train. They’ll test those cars for months at a time and be based out of various B division yards. Not just for the  or just for the  and not just for the . 

I’m inclined to agree with you. Wider doors + closed ended cars = LESS space, not more. The wider doors, together with the open ends will yield more space. It’s THOSE cars - the R211T cars that should be assigned to the  and . The wide doors are already going to take away seating space and force more people to stand. But if there are bulkheads at the ends of each car, then we’re going to have MORE crush loading, not less. And, speaking of the pandemic, it will still be fresh in people’s minds even after majority of people get vaccinated. And people might still not want to be jammed up against their fellow riders like they were pre-pandemic. So maybe it’s better to wait till the production R211T cars are delivered and put THOSE R211s on the  and . And put the standard, closed-ended R211A cars on the  and  lines and put the CI R46s out to pasture first. 

4 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I wonder about that too.

Is there a way that the r62s and r68's can be equipped with CBTC?

Can CBTC be temporarily disabled after it's been activated?

In the meantime, the MTA suspended a bulk of it's current capital program, which unfortunately will impact CBTC. SMH!!! Hopefully, it doesn't impact the r211's.

Somehow, I feel like the answer to this is yes. I mean, it’s certainly possible to equip low-tech trains with cab signaling. Here’s a photo of a cab signal console in a CTA L train cab. Though their system is cab-signaled, but doesn’t have ATO, unlike the  and , I think. Our CBTC systems are designed to work in tandem with ATO and the MTA deemed it costly to equip the low-tech R62As on the  (transferred there from the  and , so they could retire the rusting R36 cars with their poorly working A/C, previously on the  since 1964). With technology advancing, the MTA didn’t want to invest in an older ATO/CBTC system, like on PATCO between Philadelphia and NJ. I think it was possible, but it was more cost-effective to equip the already new-tech R142As then on the  with more-advanced CBTC/ATO equipment.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/CTA_Cab-signal-display.jpg

48 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

By your logic the should have gotten r160's in 2008-2010 since they had cars that needed to be replaced.

They might have gotten R160s in 2008-10 if it hadn’t been for the power problems between Howard Beach and the Rockaways. Thankfully, that’s no longer the case now. 
 

Edited January 29, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Eric B]

Look at the new big LED sign by the cafe in the Moynihan station, The pixels are now small enough that they could pretty much approximate that sign!

[R68ACTrain]

14 hours ago, Maxwell179 said:

does anyone have an pictures of the R211 ?

They aren't allowed on this website, I had to change my pfp because I had a R211  as it. 

[Bill from Maspeth]

15 hours ago, Maxwell179 said:

does anyone have an pictures of the R211 ?

None on this site.  You'll have to search the railfan sites on Facebook.

[rbrome]

12 hours ago, Eric B said:

Look at the new big LED sign by the cafe in the Moynihan station, The pixels are now small enough that they could pretty much approximate that sign!

Yep! The best LED panels now available have pixels less than 2mm apart. For something viewed from a distance, that's very hi-res, more than enough to do clean circles, fancy fonts, etc. 

[bobtehpanda]

13 hours ago, Eric B said:

Look at the new big LED sign by the cafe in the Moynihan station, The pixels are now small enough that they could pretty much approximate that sign!

What I'm curious about is what conditions that kind of LED is rated for.

The subway, and attached to a vehicle is much harsher conditions than your general freestanding sign.

[Storm]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

What I'm curious about is what conditions that kind of LED is rated for.

The subway, and attached to a vehicle is much harsher conditions than your general freestanding sign.

When I get the chance to see the new Moynihan Hall station, I definitely will!

Now, you may disagree with me, but I think the LED's which showed 2 trains at a time looked better (in my unbiased opinion)

For the new R211's I think the side LED's look ugly (my opinion once again). The R160's side LED looks 100% better. 

The front LED's on the R211's look better than the R160's, because you can see which line the coming train is on and where it goes to as opposed the R160's, you can only tell when the train is a few feet away.

The doors LED is what I am most interested about. I wonder if it'll work 100% of the time. Most of the time, I don't know which side the train is opening on, so these new green and red ID's will help a lot.

[bobtehpanda]

On 1/29/2021 at 11:44 AM, Stormxx said:

When I get the chance to see the new Moynihan Hall station, I definitely will!

Now, you may disagree with me, but I think the LED's which showed 2 trains at a time looked better (in my unbiased opinion)

For the new R211's I think the side LED's look ugly (my opinion once again). The R160's side LED looks 100% better. 

The front LED's on the R211's look better than the R160's, because you can see which line the coming train is on and where it goes to as opposed the R160's, you can only tell when the train is a few feet away.

The doors LED is what I am most interested about. I wonder if it'll work 100% of the time. Most of the time, I don't know which side the train is opening on, so these new green and red ID's will help a lot.

Thanks for replying to a question I didn't ask.

[Storm]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Thanks for replying to a question I didn't ask.

No problem. 

 

On 1/29/2021 at 1:14 PM, bobtehpanda said:

What I'm curious about is what conditions that kind of LED is rated for.

The subway, and attached to a vehicle is much harsher conditions than your general freestanding sign.

To be honest, I have no idea.

[elantra06]

On 1/29/2021 at 10:08 AM, R68ACTrain said:

They aren't allowed on this website, I had to change my pfp because I had a R211  as it. 

That's odd because the most recent photos are on page 68 of this thread.....

[Bill from Maspeth]

1 hour ago, elantra06 said:

That's odd because the most recent photos are on page 68 of this thread.....

I guess you didn't see 2 posts made by "Deucey" on page 71 of this thread......

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Bill from Maspeth

[LGA Link N Train]

This may seem like an odd speculation but given that the R211’s are CBTC equipped, and QBL is set to get CBTC upgrades within this year (or the next) what if the  sent all 460 R211’s to Jamaica, which should boot a majority of 160’s to 207th/Pitkin given that 8th Avenue CBTC is slated to be after QBL (and Culver since that’s a Work In Progress). Basically:

Jamaica Yard   - R211’s. Most likely, some 160s would be left over. Wouldn’t surprise me if they operated solely on the . 

207th/Pitkin   - Gets the 160‘s left over from Jamaica in addition to keeping its 179’s. This should be enough to boot whatever 8 car trains are at these 2 yards over to East New York. Coming to think of it, it would’ve been nice if the 179’s came CBTC equipped, but alas that’s not the case. 

IF we get to the option orders:

- Whatever CBTC equipped R211’s that happen to be 4 car sets should go to the  Line. I would also say to put them on the  but given that the Canarsie Line’s CBTC equipment is different (and outdated?) I don’t think R211’s could run there, at least not yet. 

- The rest of the 5 car R211’s should (obviously) replace the remaining number of 46’s, that would fill up the  and  fleets. But then there’s the argument that they could go to the  and  lines first in anticipation of 8th Avenue, Crosstown and Culver CBTC. But given how well Concourse takes care of their R68 fleet, I doubt that they‘ll touch the  line, (with the  its a bit more debatable given that its based out of Coney and a part time line). So here’s what I got:

 - Mix of leftover 46’s, 160’s and 179’s (211 base order only)

 - R68’s and R68A’s

 - Mix of 160’s (if any space is left) and the entirety of the R211 base order. 

  - R68’s. (Assuming that the Option orders of the 211’s are supposed to create a fleet expansion, I wouldn’t be surprised if it got any 4 car sets or if it gets anything out of East New York)

 - R143’s, R60’s and R179’s. (If it gets a piece of the R211 option order, I wouldn’t be surprised if a few 160’s and 179’s got booted to CIY or some other Yard) 

 - R46’, R68’s and R68A’s (The option orders for the R211’s to replace the remainder of the R46’s) 

MInd you, I did not account for the Shuttles. 

[R32 3838]

6 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This may seem like an odd speculation but given that the R211’s are CBTC equipped, and QBL is set to get CBTC upgrades within this year (or the next) what if the  sent all 460 R211’s to Jamaica, which should boot a majority of 160’s to 207th/Pitkin given that 8th Avenue CBTC is slated to be after QBL (and Culver since that’s a Work In Progress). Basically:

Jamaica Yard   - R211’s. Most likely, some 160s would be left over. Wouldn’t surprise me if they operated solely on the . 

207th/Pitkin   - Gets the 160‘s left over from Jamaica in addition to keeping its 179’s. This should be enough to boot whatever 8 car trains are at these 2 yards over to East New York. Coming to think of it, it would’ve been nice if the 179’s came CBTC equipped, but alas that’s not the case. 

IF we get to the option orders:

- Whatever CBTC equipped R211’s that happen to be 4 car sets should go to the  Line. I would also say to put them on the  but given that the Canarsie Line’s CBTC equipment is different (and outdated?) I don’t think R211’s could run there, at least not yet. 

- The rest of the 5 car R211’s should (obviously) replace the remaining number of 46’s, that would fill up the  and  fleets. But then there’s the argument that they could go to the  and  lines first in anticipation of 8th Avenue, Crosstown and Culver CBTC. But given how well Concourse takes care of their R68 fleet, I doubt that they‘ll touch the  line, (with the  its a bit more debatable given that its based out of Coney and a part time line). So here’s what I got:

 - Mix of leftover 46’s, 160’s and 179’s (211 base order only)

 - R68’s and R68A’s

 - Mix of 160’s (if any space is left) and the entirety of the R211 base order. 

  - R68’s. (Assuming that the Option orders of the 211’s are supposed to create a fleet expansion, I wouldn’t be surprised if it got any 4 car sets or if it gets anything out of East New York)

 - R143’s, R60’s and R179’s. (If it gets a piece of the R211 option order, I wouldn’t be surprised if a few 160’s and 179’s got booted to CIY or some other Yard) 

 - R46’, R68’s and R68A’s (The option orders for the R211’s to replace the remainder of the R46’s) 

MInd you, I did not account for the Shuttles. 

 

I doubt the base order is going to Jamaica First. I would say pitkin would get em first or both Pitkin and coney would get the base order.

I rather them do the open gangway testing first, then if it passes, have the open gangway option order cars at Jamaica.

CI only need 250-300 R211's, they don't need anymore than that. Just throw them on the and the rest on the lines.

[rbrome]

18 hours ago, elantra06 said:

That's odd because the most recent photos are on page 68 of this thread.....

There were other photos, since removed, from a different source and showing... more.