Will we ever see those Select Bus Service facts?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What we need is more transparency. We need to know how much the enforcement costs?, how much is recovered through fines?, who receives that money?, is it the MTA?, how is that money spent,? Is fare evasion greater on SBS routes and how much greater or less? We pay taxes Andew deserve some transparency, not a bunch of BS and lies.

Very true... I also wonder how can they track farebeating on SBS since people can come and go as they please and are only checked when they fare checkers board.   I myself technically did it on the M15SBS.  I had an unlimited Express bus pass.  Went to get a ticket.  All of the machines were off.  This was at 1st and 25th street.  I had a bunch of stuff with me so I didn't bother to get one at the next stop for fear of the bus taking off with my stuff still on it, so I just kept riding to 42nd street and got off. 

[bobtehpanda]

To Via Garibaldi 8: Although you only had your ticket checked once the enforcement costs are substantial. I did not make that up. I don't know a specific number, but at the City Council hearing a year ago that I attended, Peter Cafiero, head of MTA Operations Planning stated that the most significant and substantial ongoing cost of SBS is the enforcement. That would mean it is greater than the maintenance cost for the fare machines.

 

Are you pro- or anti- offboard payment then? I remember you positively citing examples of a offboard payment machine that was in Flatbush Junction several decades ago.

[BrooklynBus]

Actually I was allying about Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway, not Flatbush Junction although I now know they were also available there.

 

In answer to your question, at heavily utilized locations such as the two mentioned, I would definitely be in favor of off-board fare payment. They cut boarding times in half when they were in use. Why the MTA could not do that today with no cash exchanged is beyond me. All they need us to station some personnel during key locations for several hours a day. It would be no different than having platform conductors.

 

The MTA may be planning this because I see decals being affixed to the rear door saying entry permitted only with permission as opposed to just saying no entry or no signs at all.

 

If off-board payment makes sense in certain places, why can it only be done in conjunction with SBS? That makes no sense. In fact, the only time passengers would save during off-peak hours with a Woodaven SBS, would be from the off-board fare payment, not from the bus lanes.

[Around the Horn]

In answer to your question, at heavily utilized locations such as the two mentioned, I would definitely be in favor of off-board fare payment.

 

The MTA may be planning this because I see decals being affixed to the rear door saying entry permitted only with permission as opposed to just saying no entry or no signs at all.

Hmmm,so that's why the Fort Hamilton school trippers open both doors now...

 

There aren't any machines at Shore/83rd but most of the kids will just end up paying on the bus or train they would have gotten a transfer for anyway.

[BrooklynBus]

Hmmm,so that's why the Fort Hamilton school trippers open both doors now...

 

There aren't any machines at Shore/83rd but most of the kids will just end up paying on the bus or train they would have gotten a transfer for anyway.

?

 

They need to so the same thing at Coney Island Avenue on the Brighton Line. I've noticed some drivers doing it unofficially because I see the back door opening although no one wants to get off and the kids start piling in. Sometimes he does this without even opening the front door.

 

The exact wording is No Entry (by use of a do not enter symbol) with the words "Unless Authorized" in small print beneath it.

[Trainmaster5]

Actually I was allying about Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway, not Flatbush Junction although I now know they were also available there.

 

In answer to your question, at heavily utilized locations such as the two mentioned, I would definitely be in favor of off-board fare payment. They cut boarding times in half when they were in use. Why the MTA could not do that today with no cash exchanged is beyond me. All they need us to station some personnel during key locations for several hours a day. It would be no different than having platform conductors.

 

The MTA may be planning this because I see decals being affixed to the rear door saying entry permitted only with permission as opposed to just saying no entry or no signs at all.

 

If off-board payment makes sense in certain places, why can it only be done in conjunction with SBS? That makes no sense. In fact, the only time passengers would save during off-peak hours with a Woodaven SBS, would be from the off-board fare payment, not from the bus lanes.

Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway, Utica Avenue and Church Avenue (AM rush), and Kings Highway on the Brighton Line (AM rush) come to mind back in the '60s. That bus/train pass I had back then came in handy, BrooklynBus. I've been a transit explorer for a long time it seems.

[BrooklynBus]

Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway, Utica Avenue and Church Avenue (AM rush), and Kings Highway on the Brighton Line (AM rush) come to mind back in the '60s. That bus/train pass I had back then came in handy, BrooklynBus. I've been a transit explorer for a long time it seems.

Now why can't they bring all those locations back? And then add some more? Everything doesn't have to be SBS. It seems like the MTA is ignoring every other opportunity by making it seem the only way to improve transit is by adding more SBS routes and that bothers me.

[Around the Horn]

Now why can't they bring all those locations back? And then add some more? Everything doesn't have to be SBS. It seems like the MTA is ignoring every other opportunity by making it seem the only way to improve transit is by adding more SBS routes and that bothers me.

That's exactly what they want...

[BrooklynBus]

That's exactly what they want...

What are you saying? I don't understand.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

To sum up what the local vs SBS ridership splits tell us:

- More people are using the B44 local than SBS. Something about SBS is not clicking with the riders along Nostrand and Rogers.

- Bx41 has fairly balanced usage between the local and SBS with high ridership overall. The truncation of the route and elimination of the Bx55 may have aided things more SBS though. 

- Bx12 Select usage dwarfs that of the local. This is very concerning because Local and Limited stop on the same corridor should not be seeing such a large imbalance. Local usage is decreasing over time while SBS usage is reaching levels where it alone would stand as one of the busiest routes in the city if not nation.

- The declines in Manhattan bus usage have not hit M15 SBS usage as hard as the overall ridership number would suggest. 

[bobtehpanda]

Actually I was allying about Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway, not Flatbush Junction although I now know they were also available there.

 

In answer to your question, at heavily utilized locations such as the two mentioned, I would definitely be in favor of off-board fare payment. They cut boarding times in half when they were in use. Why the MTA could not do that today with no cash exchanged is beyond me. All they need us to station some personnel during key locations for several hours a day. It would be no different than having platform conductors.

 

The MTA may be planning this because I see decals being affixed to the rear door saying entry permitted only with permission as opposed to just saying no entry or no signs at all.

 

If off-board payment makes sense in certain places, why can it only be done in conjunction with SBS? That makes no sense. In fact, the only time passengers would save during off-peak hours with a Woodaven SBS, would be from the off-board fare payment, not from the bus lanes.

 

The issue with off-board (or, at least all-door fare payment) currently is that the current fare technology is not very well suited for it at all. Metrocards are well beyond their useful life, and their functionality is so limited that to do all-door boarding we have to resort to a middleman (the SBS offboard payment machine) to provide a proof of payment. Plus, the MTA's way of implementation isn't too great; in Europe the fare inspectors show up at a similar rate to the ones here, but with several key differences:

 

• The inspectors do not hold up a moving vehicle
• The inspectors dress and act like everyday people and only start doing their job once the vehicle is in motion, so that people won't get off at the sight of a cop
• The fines are exorbitant compared to the fare: my monthly zone pass cost me 80EUR, and the fine was 1000EUR, so it made a lot more financial sense to just buy a monthly pass than to risk getting the ridiculous fine.

Even in the US, Muni in SF has done systemwide proof-of-payment and decreased systemwide dwell times by 38%, so doing it systemwide is possible. The main issue is the fare payment system and the fact that the MTA is perenially broke because there is no stable funding mechanism for the Capital Plan. Once we get the next-gen fare payment in the 2020s, it should be possible for the MTA to just put fare readers at every door like they do in Europe and manage boarding that way, and have fare inspectors check the next-gen fare payment for the tap history.

[BrooklynBus]

To sum up what the local vs SBS ridership splits tell us:

- More people are using the B44 local than SBS. Something about SBS is not clicking with the riders along Nostrand and Rogers.

- Bx41 has fairly balanced usage between the local and SBS with high ridership overall. The truncation of the route and elimination of the Bx55 may have aided things more SBS though. 

- Bx12 Select usage dwarfs that of the local. This is very concerning because Local and Limited stop on the same corridor should not be seeing such a large imbalance. Local usage is decreasing over time while SBS usage is reaching levels where it alone would stand as one of the busiest routes in the city if not nation.

- The declines in Manhattan bus usage have not hit M15 SBS usage as hard as the overall ridership number would suggest.

 

On the B44, what it probably means is that fare evasion is through the roof like at 30% or more.

[bobtehpanda]

To sum up what the local vs SBS ridership splits tell us:

- More people are using the B44 local than SBS. Something about SBS is not clicking with the riders along Nostrand and Rogers.

- Bx41 has fairly balanced usage between the local and SBS with high ridership overall. The truncation of the route and elimination of the Bx55 may have aided things more SBS though. 

- Bx12 Select usage dwarfs that of the local. This is very concerning because Local and Limited stop on the same corridor should not be seeing such a large imbalance. Local usage is decreasing over time while SBS usage is reaching levels where it alone would stand as one of the busiest routes in the city if not nation.

- The declines in Manhattan bus usage have not hit M15 SBS usage as hard as the overall ridership number would suggest. 

 

With the exception of the Q20/Q44, local and limited routes are not distinguished in ridership records, correct? So there is no public record of whatever the limited/local distribution was like before.

 

The Bx12 imbalance is probably because of the street design of Pelham Pkwy itself; there aren't many locations where you can safely, legally cross the entire width of the road, and where you can do so generally corresponds with the SBS stops, so riders might as well take that anyways.

[BrooklynBus]

With the exception of the Q20/Q44, local and limited routes are not distinguished in ridership records, correct? So there is no public record of whatever the limited/local distribution was like before.

I think it is pretty safe to assume that at least on the B44 the limited was more popular than the SBS with the great reduction of bus stops and the change of route which did not go over well because it does not serve Kings County/ Downstate for example, a major trip generator and only adds a service area in one direction already served by the B49. Also, consider that the Limited previously made all local stops south of Avenue U whereas the SBS only makes stops at Ave X, Ave Z, Emmons and Knapp St. The fact that buses are less crowded with the artics weren't even enough of an incentive to attract paid ridership. The MTA thought "everyone" from Sheepshead Bay Nostrand Area would now switch to the IRT from the BMT and planned service accordingly. Of course that never happened and the B44 carries only 6 passengers per bus south of Avenue X while the B36 remains jam packed. There is a reason why the MTA never issued any assessments for the route. They must have been abysmal and showed total failure that even the MTA couldn't put a positive spin on it.

[Around the Horn]

What are you saying? I don't understand.

they will only "improve" service by turning a route into an SBS.They want to keep the illusion that SBS is the cure all for bus problems.

They don't want to try something else, have it work and then have everyone in the city cry for it and they lose support for SBS citywide.

[BrooklynBus]

they will only "improve" service by turning a route into an SBS.They want to keep the illusion that SBS is the cure all for bus problems.

They don't want to try something else, have it work and then have everyone in the city cry for it and they lose support for SBS citywide.

Exactly.

 

I just found out from someone who supports bus lanes on Woodhaven that people in vehicles other than buses outnumber bus passengers by 4 or 5 to 1. I had been underestimating those not in buses. This person estimates between 100,000 and 150,000 daily persons in vehicles other than buses compared to the 30,000 bus passengers. Without an estimate of how many can or will shift from car to bus, it is unthinkable to reduce through lane traffic from 8 lanes to 4 which will be reduced further if the number of cars wanting a left turn exceeds the available queue space and spills into a through lane.

[B35 via Church]

To sum up what the local vs SBS ridership splits tell us:

 

- More people are using the B44 local than SBS. Something about SBS is not clicking with the riders along Nostrand and Rogers.

- Bx41 has fairly balanced usage between the local and SBS with high ridership overall. The truncation of the route and elimination of the Bx55 may have aided things more SBS though. 

- Bx12 Select usage dwarfs that of the local. This is very concerning because Local and Limited stop on the same corridor should not be seeing such a large imbalance. Local usage is decreasing over time while SBS usage is reaching levels where it alone would stand as one of the busiest routes in the city if not nation.

- The declines in Manhattan bus usage have not hit M15 SBS usage as hard as the overall ridership number would suggest. 

 

B44: For starters, the NB buses doesn't do much for East Flatbush.... The NB buses are great if you're traveling b/w the Junction (or even points south) & Fulton st (which is done more commonly than many might think)..... Nice little bypass (as I like to call it) for the most part b/w the same said stretch... Anyway, I honestly believe that the B44 is more patronized in this area than it is in Bed Stuy - as such, while the SB buses are utilized just like the SB LTD's were, the NB SBS' (in this area) simply aren't, compared to the NB LTD's.....

 

It's embarrassing that local service is seeing more usage than the SBS... Although your findings didn't mention direction of travel, I bet anything that's where the biggest discrepancy in usage is (NB SBS' vs NB locals), as to why the locals overall are actually being more utilized than the SBS overall...

 

I do not believe it's Nostrand as to why SBS isn't clicking, I strongly believe losses are happening w/ the NB buses in the middle of the B44 route in-particular..... Farebeating (as BrooklynBus states) is likely a factor in it also, but I believe having buses on Rogers makes SBS not as useful (around here).....

 

Bx41: Any positives that is or will be stated about the SBS I will NOT attribute to the fact that SBS is on this route.... They could have made the same changes (truncation) to the Bx41 LTD & had very similar successes... This is why I don't speak too much on the Bx41 SBS.....

 

Bx12: I'm not going to blame SBS when it comes to this route... I'll briefly explain:

For the longest, I had the sense that the MTA wanted to actually do the unthinkable & get rid of local service... I say that b/c even w/ LTD service, things were that way (as you describe w/ the SBS) on the route - just not to the same extent (the difference in usage w/ the SBS', compared to the locals are worse, I agree with that, just from what I see w/ my own two (eyes) - Not that I ride the Bx12 anymore, b/c it's one of a handful or so routes I refuse to embark on).... This is where I would agree w/ VG8's sentiments, regarding using SBS as a cheap alternative to building a subway (line)..... I can't think of any other route in the system where the local was/is treated like a distant stepchild to its LTD/SBS counterpart.... Not sure how else I can explain it....

 

side note: What's currently happening w/ what you're describing, will end up happening along Woodhaven... I was just thinking about this very thing on my way home today - How the MTA done indirectly forced the myriad of Woodhaven (blvd) riders to take LTD's & shun locals.... Once upon a time, the Q11 was "The" route out there... Now it's all about the 53/52 (which the 52 wasn't really needed, but I'll spare that rant for another time).....

 

M15: Of course not.... The route is a lone wolf on the far east side...

This will sound nefarious, but I want to see just how bad ridership will decrease on the M15 once the 2nd av subway makes its mark in this city.....

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

With the exception of the Q20/Q44, local and limited routes are not distinguished in ridership records, correct? So there is no public record of whatever the limited/local distribution was like before.

 

The Bx12 imbalance is probably because of the street design of Pelham Pkwy itself; there aren't many locations where you can safely, legally cross the entire width of the road, and where you can do so generally corresponds with the SBS stops, so riders might as well take that anyways.

While Local and Limited service on the same route is not separated in ridership data, a local/LTD vs local/SBS comparison taking SBS usage following implementation and LTD usage in that same month the year before did make it's way into the assessments for the Bx12, M15 and Bx41. The idea was to show that riders were gravitating towards the SBS (even off of locals). They had Bx12 usage around 19k per weekday for the local and LTD usage at 22k in 2007 (before SBS). In the same month in 2008 (with SBS in service) the local was now at 16k per weekday and the SBS at 30k. There may not a public record of local vs LTD ridership on routes with limited stop service but such records do get kept and will be released if the agency sees fit in releasing them. 

[Future ENY OP]

B44: For starters, the NB buses doesn't do much for East Flatbush.... The NB buses are great if you're traveling b/w the Junction (or even points south) & Fulton st (which is done more commonly than many might think)..... Nice little bypass (as I like to call it) for the most part b/w the same said stretch... Anyway, I honestly believe that the B44 is more patronized in this area than it is in Bed Stuy - as such, while the SB buses are utilized just like the SB LTD's were, the NB SBS' (in this area) simply aren't, compared to the NB LTD's.....

 

It's embarrassing that local service is seeing more usage than the SBS... Although your findings didn't mention direction of travel, I bet anything that's where the biggest discrepancy in usage is (NB SBS' vs NB locals), as to why the locals overall are actually being more utilized than the SBS overall...

 

I do not believe it's Nostrand as to why SBS isn't clicking, I strongly believe losses are happening w/ the NB buses in the middle of the B44 route in-particular..... Farebeating (as BrooklynBus states) is likely a factor in it also, but I believe having buses on Rogers makes SBS not as useful (around here).....

 

B44SBS+ should honestly be on New York Avenue.

In 2013 when FB had 5821-5843 from MJQ/West Side before acquiring the 53xx buses.

Those buses were able to turn right unto Farragut Road from Nostrand than veer left unto New York Avenue.

 

If the DOT were smart. You make New York Avenue from Avenue D to Lincoln Road 1 way traffic so that you give adequate space for the artics to drive down New York Avenue. Also, right now the B44 is losing tons of customers and veering off to the local. Rogers Avenue traffic is not really the best if were to ask me but it kinda gets the job done.

 

Too bad that there is NO B46SBS+ right now at the earliest mid-2016 to early 2017, and I've said this previously in the past. If you want the B46SBS to head to WBP. It has to technically turn off at from Myrtle Ave or DeKalb Avenue to Bedford Ave to WBP.

[NewFlyer 230]

Does anyone think the Q44 will see a decrease in ridership while the Q20 sees a gain?

[MysteriousBtrain]

Does anyone think the Q44 will see a decrease in ridership while the Q20 sees a gain?

What will likely happen is that there will be a lot of fare evasion on this line, not a decrease in ridership. In fact, it might be the Q20 that decreases in ridership.

[bobtehpanda]

What will likely happen is that there will be a lot of fare evasion on this line, not a decrease in ridership. In fact, it might be the Q20 that decreases in ridership.

 

This answer doesn't make sense. Ridership is counted by Metrocard swipes, so an increase in fare evasion would, all other things being equal, result in a decrease in recorded ridership.

 

While a lot is to be desired regarding queuing behavior and manners in Flushing and Jamaica, the rate of fare evasion is not as high as, say, on the B44 or B46.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What will likely happen is that there will be a lot of fare evasion on this line, not a decrease in ridership. In fact, it might be the Q20 that decreases in ridership.

The Q44 goes through some decent areas of Northeast Queens, and given the demographics that use the bus in Queens (high amount of Asians), they aren't known for farebeating like the poor areas that the B44 and B46 go through.  I see the Q44 in Whitestone when I use the QM2, which is a solid middle class area with pockets of upper middle to upper class residents in subsections of Whitestone (i.e. Malba and nearby Beechhurst), and all of those people pay, so I don't see fare evasion being a problem, save by a certain demographic of people in the Bronx or those going to the poor parts of the Bronx from Queens.

 

This answer doesn't make sense. Ridership is counted by Metrocard swipes, so an increase in fare evasion would, all other things being equal, result in a decrease in recorded ridership.

 

While a lot is to be desired regarding queuing behavior and manners in Flushing and Jamaica, the rate of fare evasion is not as high as, say, on the B44 or B46.

Agreed.

[MysteriousBtrain]

This answer doesn't make sense. Ridership is counted by Metrocard swipes, so an increase in fare evasion would, all other things being equal, result in a decrease in recorded ridership.

 

While a lot is to be desired regarding queuing behavior and manners in Flushing and Jamaica, the rate of fare evasion is not as high as, say, on the B44 or B46.

I'll buy the fact that fare evasion will be low. However, there will be a few people that will not bother with the machines.

The Q44 goes through some decent areas of Northeast Queens, and given the demographics that use the bus in Queens (high amount of Asians), they aren't known for farebeating like the poor areas that the B44 and B46 go through.  I see the Q44 in Whitestone when I use the QM2, which is a solid middle class area with pockets of upper middle to upper class residents in subsections of Whitestone (i.e. Malba and nearby Beechhurst), and all of those people pay, so I don't see fare evasion being a problem, save by a certain demographic of people in the Bronx or those going to the poor parts of the Bronx from Queens.

Ok yeah, the Flushing area will not really see fare evasion line that, but what about the other areas it goes through, like Jamaica and the Bronx?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'll buy the fact that fare evasion will be low. However, there will be a few people that will not bother with the machines.

Ok yeah, the Flushing area will not really see fare evasion line that, but what about the other areas it goes through, like Jamaica and the Bronx?

lol... I thought I talked about that already in that post??? Reading is fundamental...