L Train Service Between Brooklyn & Manhattan May Be Shut Down For Years

[LTA1992]

I think they're just confusing the tunnel shutdown with a shutdown of the entire line and reacting accordingly.

 

For the record, I'd support a through 6 Av-Canarsie service if there were enough cars for it. If the is truly having its frequency halved (which I doubt) the Through service, in conjunction with the truncated could theoretically provide the current service levels between Broadway Junction and Canarsie.

I know. I've had t correct at least 10 people on that face to face. Where people got that from is still a mystery to me.

 

On the topic of a combined Canarsie-6th Avenue service, you have to remember that that service needs to navigate the sharp curves at B'way Junction and compete with the and services for room. In order for that service to exist, service on the other lines it shares tracks with would need to be lessened to make space. It's also a perfect recipe for that service to experience delays for the same reasons the does.

[Around the Horn]

On the topic of a combined Canarsie-6th Avenue service, you have to remember that that service needs to navigate the sharp curves at B'way Junction and compete with the and services for room. In order for that service to exist, service on the other lines it shares tracks with would need to be lessened to make space. It's also a perfect recipe for that service to experience delays for the same reasons the does.

That's why I said theoretically. It sounds good on paper but may not actually work.

[Fresh Pond]

And it's full of riders who obviously don't know how to use their alternatives. Riders east of Broadway Junction have the and as alternatives. "There aren't enough shuttles". DUDE.

 

 

...I'm about to go on a rant. Stopping now.

When they say "not enough shuttles" I'm pretty sure they're referring to the weekend closures we've been dealing with almost every weekend on our end of the line for over a month (only break we get from it is when the has shuttle buses, they never shut both down lol). The shuttle buses are sparse, and many times you have to let more than one go by just to get on one. Broadway Junction itself becomes a madhouse (well n even bigger one) when the buses are running.

 

Many people on this end are on to the impending closure, and many support a total shutdown of the tubes, instead of just dragging the thing out.

 

...not everyone along the are whining and threatening to move off the line, just the north half of the line lol.

[Javier]

I honestly don't know why the complaining, the  needs to shut down these tunnels in order to fix them. If they don't, NY'ers are gonna bitch even more when a train derails in the Carnarsie tubes, saying "oooh the MTA should've the tunnel so that this wouldn't have happened."

 

Like honestly, shut the f*** up. No one cares if your gonna move, no one cares if you have to take more time to go to work. If you don't like the MTA, then use those legs mother nature gave you and WALK. Sheesh.

[Trainmaster5]

NY1 also had a story about riders on the Canarsie end of the line. Maybe cut THEM a break by offering them some kind of through-service to Midtown via Broadway Junction and the 6th Ave Local and onto Queens via the 53rd St Tunnel (at least on weekdays), especially because they're planning to run the on reduced frequency, even with both tubes shut down.

 

 

WHY? They can just transfer like half of them already do. Really. If anything, the residents east of B'way Junction have more convenient alternatives than those that live west of Myrtle Avenue. Running some kind of through service would reduce service on the more congested sections of the line even further.

 

People, what we need to do is stop over complicating things for people with alternatives. Easy ones at that. 

 

 

 

WHY? They can just transfer like half of them already do. Really. If anything, the residents east of B'way Junction have more convenient alternatives than those that live west of Myrtle Avenue. Running some kind of through service would reduce service on the more congested sections of the line even further.

 

People, what we need to do is stop over complicating things for people with alternatives. Easy ones at that. 

I'm sitting here laughing at the hysteria surrounding the tube shutdown and the options for those on the eastern end of the line. See that big flyover between the Atlantic Avenue station and the Eastern Parkway station ? A dinosaur like me can remember when that track, and the s/b one from the to the were used M-F for rush hour service between Canarsie and the Broadway-Brooklyn lines. Trains started at Rockaway Parkway or Atlantic Avenue back then so it's not an unheard of idea. Non-rush hours the staircase down to the   or the escalator/staircase down to the , or always was an option, too, Maybe my old schoolcar instructors from 30+ years ago were right. The average person is so dumbed down these days that part of the C/Rs job description in the future will be to walk the riders to their front door. Tell those riders on the western  end of the line to make their way to the at Myrtle-Wyckoff or the , stations along Broadway or the train period. Extra service will be provided and that's it. Don't like it ? Move elsewhere. Take it or leave it. That's the way I personally would present it. Carry on.

[CenSin]

I honestly don't know why the complaining, the  needs to shut down these tunnels in order to fix them. If they don't, NY'ers are gonna bitch even more when a train derails in the Carnarsie tubes, saying "oooh the MTA should've the tunnel so that this wouldn't have happened."

 

Like honestly, shut the f*** up. No one cares if your gonna move, no one cares if you have to take more time to go to work. If you don't like the MTA, then use those legs mother nature gave you and WALK. Sheesh.

I read the entire post in my head with the voice of two annoying college cheerleaders speaking in valley girl accent while rolling their eyes and making exaggerated hand gestures.

[Eric B]

I don't see that as happening. Not only does that require a bunch of unnecessary updates to every piece of signage in the system, it doesn't solve the issue of additional service on the for the 14th Street tunnel closure. In fact, by running additional service to Chambers St, you limit the number of trains running between Essex St and Myrtle Av, what with the and trains running local on that segment.

The signs are going to have to change temporarily anyway when the (M)is not running through to Metropolitan.

The whole point of more service was for the shutdown, but increased service wouldn't work on the Queens portion. That will limit how much it could be increased. They really needed 72/2 middle, but cut that out. So Chambers is the alternative, and it would still help out, to get from the area to Manhattan, where they can transfer (as many who take the do anyway).

 

IF they were to do this, then runnign the and local would be all the more unnecessary. There's still the other direction, but there does seem to be more capacity. This is replacing the , remember, which is much more frequent.

[Javier]

I read the entire post in my head with the voice of two annoying college cheerleaders speaking in valley girl accent while rolling their eyes and making exaggerated hand gestures.

Your right lol, but my point still stands! People didn't complain when Mounatngue was closed for a year.

[Fresh Pond]

Your right lol, but my point still stands! People didn't complain when Mounatngue was closed for a year.

Because Montague had several other ways to get around all within walking distance of the . That, and people said the south half of the line was a huge improvement over the full-length line.

[Kamen Rider]

Since Wally seems to be a glutton for punishment...

 

This, is as simple English as I can possibly use, is why the majority of us feel their should be no service to 96th and 2nd from the 6th avenue line and that everything should go to Queens;

 

We are trying to produce the largest amount of trains crossing under the river as possible. with the M, as much as I've complained about the current routing in the past, because it crosses the river twice in a single trip, it is worth two subway lines at once. We should be encouraging the most use out of the other tunnels as possible.

 

You keep mentioning CBTC work, but you are thinking rather closed minded on the subject. How do we know they won't put a hold on the work? How do we know they won't find a way around it? the M could drop out at Queens plaza and not interfere with anything, relaying via D5.

 

Court Square has a wide passageway with a reversible moving walkway between the two IND sections. foot traffic to the E and M would be sorted out from traffic using the 7 at the top of the stairs coming from the G. given the layout of the station and the New Yorker tendency to "prewalk", which I do every day, one could encourage this idea and put up signs saying "Front half of the train for the E and M. Back half of the train for the 7" and the two groups would not have a problem.

 

The L shutdown, no matter which way it goes, is going to be a rough ride, and by worrying about second avenue riders, you are essentially telling L riders "I know you've got it rough, but they are more important than you."

[Caelestor]

Your right lol, but my point still stands! People didn't complain when Mounatngue was closed for a year.

 

The carries more than 3x the number of riders that the done, so that's not a good comparison.

[Wallyhorse]

I think they're just confusing the tunnel shutdown with a shutdown of the entire line and reacting accordingly.

 

For the record, I'd support a through 6 Av-Canarsie service if there were enough cars for it. If the is truly having its frequency halved (which I doubt) the Through service, in conjunction with the truncated could theoretically provide the current service levels between Broadway Junction and Canarsie.

There was through service suggested elsewhere (originally not by me) that would have what would be in this case a "Brown " run from Canarsie to Broad Street via the to Atlantic Avenue and then via the flyover and then the the rest of the way.  That MIGHT have to be a compromise on that front if that can be done at say 4-5 TPH in addition to the additional service from Metropolitan.

[Wallyhorse]

Since Wally seems to be a glutton for punishment...

 

This, is as simple English as I can possibly use, is why the majority of us feel their should be no service to 96th and 2nd from the 6th avenue line and that everything should go to Queens;

 

We are trying to produce the largest amount of trains crossing under the river as possible. with the M, as much as I've complained about the current routing in the past, because it crosses the river twice in a single trip, it is worth two subway lines at once. We should be encouraging the most use out of the other tunnels as possible.

 

You keep mentioning CBTC work, but you are thinking rather closed minded on the subject. How do we know they won't put a hold on the work? How do we know they won't find a way around it? the M could drop out at Queens plaza and not interfere with anything, relaying via D5.

 

Court Square has a wide passageway with a reversible moving walkway between the two IND sections. foot traffic to the E and M would be sorted out from traffic using the 7 at the top of the stairs coming from the G. given the layout of the station and the New Yorker tendency to "prewalk", which I do every day, one could encourage this idea and put up signs saying "Front half of the train for the E and M. Back half of the train for the 7" and the two groups would not have a problem.

 

The L shutdown, no matter which way it goes, is going to be a rough ride, and by worrying about second avenue riders, you are essentially telling L riders "I know you've got it rough, but they are more important than you."

This is not the UES being more important (and yes, more trains) could be run, however, it just happens once the SAS officially opens that 96th/2nd is going to be the easiest place north of Essex to turn trains coming from 6th Avenue that isn't above 125th Street.

 

The big concern I have about Queens Plaza and turning there is that even ONE unruly passenger, even on a weekend and you potentially have a big problem blocking the .  CBTC is likely many weekends going to make it impossible for the to run past Queens Plaza there at that time and again was the reason I came up with 96th/2nd in the first place for the , and politics are why I then did the split, which is not a fantasy, but the reality that the UES does have major political clout as arguably the most densely populated area in the entire country that will only be even more so by the time the shutdown happens.

[Kamen Rider]

The big concern I have about Queens Plaza and turning there is that even ONE unruly passenger, even on a weekend and you potentially have a big problem blocking the .  CBTC is likely many weekends going to make it impossible for the to run past Queens Plaza there at that time and again was the reason I came up with 96th/2nd in the first place for the , and politics are why I then did the split, which is not a fantasy, but the reality that the UES does have major political clout as arguably the most densely populated area in the entire country that will only be even more so by the time the shutdown happens.

#1 the only thing that could block the E is if a train brakes down in the station, which, lets be honest, could happen any time anyway.

 

#2 Yes, it could prevent the M for going past Queens plaza, but that still doesn't mean it can't go TO Queens Plaza. the phase one project corridor is the express track from 50th/8th all the way out to Kew Gardens. You can't tell me they can't work out at that end, where the service demand would be less.

 

#3 as I keep reminding you, the clout of politicians has no effect in subway operations. The MTA is designed in such a way to prevent petty local politics from interfering in the greater good of public transportation. Politicians can make all the demands they want, the MTA doesn't have to listen to them.

[CenSin]

The big concern I have about Queens Plaza and turning there is that even ONE unruly passenger, even on a weekend and you potentially have a big problem blocking the .  CBTC is likely many weekends going to make it impossible for the to run past Queens Plaza there at that time and again was the reason I came up with 96th/2nd in the first place for the , and politics are why I then did the split, which is not a fantasy, but the reality that the UES does have major political clout as arguably the most densely populated area in the entire country that will only be even more so by the time the shutdown happens.

What if these unruly passengers were at Lexington Avenue/63 Street, or 72 Street, or 86 Street, or 96 Street? It could happen anywhere.

[Around the Horn]

I thought Trainmaster or one of our employee members said that Queens Plaza was off the table because that pocket train was reserved for some other use...

[Wallyhorse]

I thought Trainmaster or one of our employee members said that Queens Plaza was off the table because that pocket train was reserved for some other use...

During the week, but yes, it may be anyway.

 

That is also why I thought of 96/2 in the first place for the late nights and weekends.

[LTA1992]

When they say "not enough shuttles" I'm pretty sure they're referring to the weekend closures we've been dealing with almost every weekend on our end of the line for over a month (only break we get from it is when the has shuttle buses, they never shut both down lol). The shuttle buses are sparse, and many times you have to let more than one go by just to get on one. Broadway Junction itself becomes a madhouse (well n even bigger one) when the buses are running.

 

Many people on this end are on to the impending closure, and many support a total shutdown of the tubes, instead of just dragging the thing out.

 

...not everyone along the are whining and threatening to move off the line, just the north half of the line lol.

I know what they meant. But no matter how many buses you run, they can never meet the demands of a service like the . There will never be enough shuttle buses, end of story.

 

 

 

I'm sitting here laughing at the hysteria surrounding the tube shutdown and the options for those on the eastern end of the line. See that big flyover between the Atlantic Avenue station and the Eastern Parkway station ? A dinosaur like me can remember when that track, and the s/b one from the to the were used M-F for rush hour service between Canarsie and the Broadway-Brooklyn lines. Trains started at Rockaway Parkway or Atlantic Avenue back then so it's not an unheard of idea. Non-rush hours the staircase down to the   or the escalator/staircase down to the , or always was an option, too, Maybe my old schoolcar instructors from 30+ years ago were right. The average person is so dumbed down these days that part of the C/Rs job description in the future will be to walk the riders to their front door. Tell those riders on the western  end of the line to make their way to the at Myrtle-Wyckoff or the , stations along Broadway or the train period. Extra service will be provided and that's it. Don't like it ? Move elsewhere. Take it or leave it. That's the way I personally would present it. Carry on.

 

It's a shame, really. Maybe I should move forward with my idea and make a documentary series. One about the history of the system (so many ways to even bother doing that), and another about how to efficiently use the damn thing.

[Wallyhorse]

What if these unruly passengers were at Lexington Avenue/63 Street, or 72 Street, or 86 Street, or 96 Street? It could happen anywhere.

They can be anywhere of course, but a terminating station (in this case Queens Plaza) is the problem.

 

What could also be done on weekends is to send the to Queens Plaza (since there are fewer trains on the QB line anyway) because then if you had a similar problem on the you can still send the via 63rd to 36th and you would only have the on the QB track at QP.  That on weekends opens up the to those on the as an option.

[CenSin]

They can be anywhere of course, but a terminating station (in this case Queens Plaza) is the problem.

 

What could also be done on weekends is to send the to Queens Plaza (since there are fewer trains on the QB line anyway) because then if you had a similar problem on the you can still send the via 63rd to 36th and you would only have the on the QB track at QP.  That on weekends opens up the to those on the as an option.

You’d also have to cut the trains down from full-length to do that. Is it worth the connection to Queens Plaza? What does terminating at Queens Plaza grant passengers that is worth the cost of being at half capacity?

[Wallyhorse]

You’d also have to cut the trains down from full-length to do that. Is it worth the connection to Queens Plaza? What does terminating at Queens Plaza grant passengers that is worth the cost of being at half capacity?

Mainly allowing those on the to switch to the  (for Manhattan) there, or the / at Queensboro Plaza.   It was one of the reasons I was originally proposing having the and all go to 179.

[CenSin]

Mainly allowing those on the to switch to the  (for Manhattan) there, or the / at Queensboro Plaza.   It was one of the reasons I was originally proposing having the and all go to 179.

With the and , the is only a marginal improvement in terms of connectivity. The covers many of the lower Manhattan stations that the does, and the covers everything down to Prince Street. From Queens Plaza to Queensboro Plaza, the walk is comparable to the Court Square transfer passages. Let them get on the and transfer at 34 Street–Herald Square if nothing is an adequate substitute for Broadway service.

 

Boost service, sending it to Jamaica–179 Street and call it a day. No hodgepodge of extra routes and services that are unrelated to the mission of helping riders only.

[Wallyhorse]

With the and , the is only a marginal improvement in terms of connectivity. The covers many of the lower Manhattan stations that the does, and the covers everything down to Prince Street. From Queens Plaza to Queensboro Plaza, the walk is comparable to the Court Square transfer passages. Let them get on the and transfer at 34 Street–Herald Square if nothing is an adequate substitute for Broadway service.

 

Boost service, sending it to Jamaica–179 Street and call it a day. No hodgepodge of extra routes and services that are unrelated to the mission of helping riders only.

You would also need to send the to 179 if you do that to avoid fumigation issues, and I do think having both Queens Plaza and Court Square in use for displaced riders makes it easier because I think Court Square is going to otherwise be overwhelmed (plus, there can be an OOS transfer to the and at Queensboro Plaza).  There is also another issue with that, as the area around Vernon-Jackson Avenues on the has and will continue to be built up and trying to put riders on the is going to create major problems for riders there from what I have been reading.  

 

That's why I still think its better, provided enough cars are available to split the into M/T and have the and all go to 179.  You might have to keep all the R32s and R42s around with the R179s that are due by the time of the shutdown to accommodate this, but that at least would allow for some form of additional service on the levels I was looking at and allowing the to serve both Court Square AND Queens Plaza without interfering with the and other lines.  

[Fresh Pond]

What the heck does the have to do with the shutting Dow

[NYCTNostalgia]

Wallyhorse, your proposals are straight messy, you have to think practically! Not what service diversions would be fun for you to see happen.