L Train Service Between Brooklyn & Manhattan May Be Shut Down For Years

[Threxx]

What I do wonder is if / riders will complain about the loss of express service between Myrtle and Marcy...

[CenSin]

What I do wonder is if / riders will complain about the loss of express service between Myrtle and Marcy...

Well, service changes like these tend to pit one group against another. I’m not sure either have an overwhelming advantage in terms of representation.

[Wallyhorse]

Given this shutdown is expected to be right after the election for Governor of New York, you have to wonder if this closure is going to play into the Governor's race in two years, especially if a strong candidate is put up against Cuomo who for example vows to order the MTA to keep the Manhattan side of the L running during this shutdown.

 

Given the Manhattan Borough President continues to insist on having 1st-8th Avenue service running during the shutdown, my compromise:

 

Close both tunnels BUT before doing so, taking across 6-8 sets of four-car trains that can be used for a shuttle between 1st and 8th Avenue (actually only using three sets at any one time, the spares (that can be stored on the lay-up track between 6th and 8th Avenue Stations and on whichever track between 1st and 3rd Avenues would NOT be in passenger use given only one track can be in use at any one time between just west of 3rd Avenue and 1st Avenue anyway) there so there are enough of them to get through any 6-10 week period between inspections should trainsets break down.  All cars scheduled for use on this shuttle would be fully inspected just prior to being sent over.

 

One tunnel is completely shut down during this time at all times.  The other is worked on simultaneously, but in a way where every 6-10 weeks (usually during late night hours), it can be reopened so non-electric leads can come in and take the cars in Manhattan back for inspections and replace them with a new batch of cars that take over operations on the shuttles (again 6-8 sets so there always are three sets available for operation of the shuttle).  Once work on the completely shut down tunnel is complete enough so it can be used without any issues for transporting cars (during which time work on ADA access for 1st Avenue and the new Avenue A entrance is done), the tunnel that had been opened up every several weeks to switch out cars is completely shut down and work is completed on that tunnel while the other is only used to transport cars every few weeks until full signaling is restored and it is not longer necessary to run an absolute block through it.

 

Might take a bit longer this way, but it placates pols in Manhattan who I suspect will join the Manhattan Borough President in keeping 1st-8th Avenues running during the shutdown with the big concern being gridlock, not necessarily from extra buses that have to be run across 14th Street to accommodate those from the shutdown, but from those likely insisting on driving into Manhattan because the replacement options for the L are too inconvenient for them (and not necessarily on 14th Street itself either) and those in New Jersey who likely can't or won't give up their cars that won't necessarily go into 14th Street, but because of additional traffic there could create traffic problems elsewhere.

 

As for the rest, I would be looking a split M/T that serves the primary purpose of getting displaced L riders into Manhattan without:

 

The notorious conga line at 71-Continental: In a perfect world, you can have 13-15 trains per hour go to 71-Continental at all times, however, there is that small problem known as the conga line that will only get worse with additional M trains. Add to that the added potential for unruly passengers not wanting to get off at 71-Continental and the line could be even worse. 

 

Court Square handling the crush of displaced riders by itself: We all know for many riders, the at Lorimer to Court Square is going to be the preferred option since you can get the , and there. The problem is, those lines by the time you get to Court Square are likely jammed with those who take other lines normally and crowding will likely be a major issue there. 

 

These two factors were why I was looking at adding OOS transfers to the G at Broadway (for the J/M/Z) and at Fulton Street for the 2/3/4/5/B/D/N/Q/R at Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center, encouraging passengers to take the G to either of those locations OR taking the G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and switching there to the A/C (especially if looking for lower Manhattan). The two factors combined are also why I would be looking at having the G/M/R all go to 179 via QB local (except late nights when all three would go to 71-Continetal) while the is QB express all the way (except late nights) since G passengers then would have the option of transferring to the , or at Queens Plaza (with the R during the L shutdown being 24/7 to 71-Continental and extended to 179 outside of late nights if all three go there outside of then) or via a new OOS transfer the 7/N/W at Queensboro Plaza. Not ideal, but being able to split the G passengers up between Court Square and Queens Plaza (and to a lesser extent Queensboro Plaza) is worth sending the G/M/R all to 179 (except late nights when it would be to 71-Continental).

 

Weekend CBTC Work on Queens Boulevard: This is the BIG sticky point as I doubt the MTA can delay CBTC work on QB because of the shutdown because that could have a major ripple effect with future CBTC projects down the road. That likely means there will be times where on weekends only one track is available in one or both directions for the , and , meaning no room then for the that would have to be cut to Court Square or the that would need most likely a Manhattan terminal other than Essex to terminate.  My original idea was to have the terminate at 96th/2nd on weekends when QB was unavailable so displaced riders have direct 6th Avenue service at Myrtle-Wyckoff no matter what, but given what subsequently was said by others about Upper East Side riders demanding any weekend service to 96th/2nd becoming seven days a week for them (and the political clout they have), that's why I came up with the split M/T that has the at its current service levels to 71-Continental 19/5 and the supplementing the on weekdays (max of 5-7 TPH to 96th/2nd weekdays, even at peak hours) and the late nights (3-5 TPH, 4-6 TPH late Friday and Saturday) and weekends (7-9 TPH) being the line between Metropolitan and 96th/2nd, operating 24/7. 

 

No matter how you slice it, this will be ugly.

[Threxx]

Provided the work doesn't go overschedule (by MTA standards it probably will but let's hope otherwise), they will be done by mid-2020, which will probably be before they start CBTC work on Queens Boulevard.

Even if it did overlap considering the resources they'd have to dedicate to the it would probably get delayed anyway.

[LTA1992]

Provided the work doesn't go overschedule (by MTA standards it probably will but let's hope otherwise), they will be done by mid-2020, which will probably be before they start CBTC work on Queens Boulevard.

 

Even if it did overlap considering the resources they'd have to dedicate to the it would probably get delayed anyway.

Now now now, Montague was done ahead of schedule. The same could happen here.

 

People only seem to remember the bad. Never the good.

[bstar1]

Maybe they could use some R32(4 cars) sets as L Shuttle between 1 Av to 8 Av.

[RailRunRob]

Maybe they could use some R32(4 cars) sets as L Shuttle between 1 Av to 8 Av.

Don't understand why we need a 14th street shuttle? The MTA is already planning SBS service for both 23rd and 14th street. What's your ridership numbers to support the need?

[Wallyhorse]

Don't understand why we need a 14th street shuttle? The MTA is already planning SBS service for both 23rd and 14th street. What's your ridership numbers to support the need?

It's not the buses.  The concern some have (including as noted the Manhattan Borough President) in a likelihood is gridlock, particular because of those coming in from New Jersey who can't or won't give up their cars.  That's the problem.

[46Dover]

Don't understand why we need a 14th street shuttle? The MTA is already planning SBS service for both 23rd and 14th street. What's your ridership numbers to support the need?

No yard to service them over there either

[Javier]

 

Given this shutdown is expected to be right after the election for Governor of New York, you have to wonder if this closure is going to play into the Governor's race in two years, especially if a strong candidate is put up against Cuomo who for example vows to order the MTA to keep the Manhattan side of the L running during this shutdown.

 

Given the Manhattan Borough President continues to insist on having 1st-8th Avenue service running during the shutdown, my compromise:

 

Close both tunnels BUT before doing so, taking across 6-8 sets of four-car trains that can be used for a shuttle between 1st and 8th Avenue (actually only using three sets at any one time, the spares (that can be stored on the lay-up track between 6th and 8th Avenue Stations and on whichever track between 1st and 3rd Avenues would NOT be in passenger use given only one track can be in use at any one time between just west of 3rd Avenue and 1st Avenue anyway) there so there are enough of them to get through any 6-10 week period between inspections should trainsets break down. All cars scheduled for use on this shuttle would be fully inspected just prior to being sent over.

 

One tunnel is completely shut down during this time at all times. The other is worked on simultaneously, but in a way where every 6-10 weeks (usually during late night hours), it can be reopened so non-electric leads can come in and take the cars in Manhattan back for inspections and replace them with a new batch of cars that take over operations on the shuttles (again 6-8 sets so there always are three sets available for operation of the shuttle). Once work on the completely shut down tunnel is complete enough so it can be used without any issues for transporting cars (during which time work on ADA access for 1st Avenue and the new Avenue A entrance is done), the tunnel that had been opened up every several weeks to switch out cars is completely shut down and work is completed on that tunnel while the other is only used to transport cars every few weeks until full signaling is restored and it is not longer necessary to run an absolute block through it.

 

Might take a bit longer this way, but it placates pols in Manhattan who I suspect will join the Manhattan Borough President in keeping 1st-8th Avenues running during the shutdown with the big concern being gridlock, not necessarily from extra buses that have to be run across 14th Street to accommodate those from the shutdown, but from those likely insisting on driving into Manhattan because the replacement options for the L are too inconvenient for them (and not necessarily on 14th Street itself either) and those in New Jersey who likely can't or won't give up their cars that won't necessarily go into 14th Street, but because of additional traffic there could create traffic problems elsewhere.

 

As for the rest, I would be looking a split M/T that serves the primary purpose of getting displaced L riders into Manhattan without:

 

The notorious conga line at 71-Continental: In a perfect world, you can have 13-15 trains per hour go to 71-Continental at all times, however, there is that small problem known as the conga line that will only get worse with additional M trains. Add to that the added potential for unruly passengers not wanting to get off at 71-Continental and the line could be even worse.

 

Court Square handling the crush of displaced riders by itself: We all know for many riders, the at Lorimer to Court Square is going to be the preferred option since you can get the , and there. The problem is, those lines by the time you get to Court Square are likely jammed with those who take other lines normally and crowding will likely be a major issue there.

 

These two factors were why I was looking at adding OOS transfers to the G at Broadway (for the J/M/Z) and at Fulton Street for the 2/3/4/5/B/D/N/Q/R at Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center, encouraging passengers to take the G to either of those locations OR taking the G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and switching there to the A/C (especially if looking for lower Manhattan). The two factors combined are also why I would be looking at having the G/M/R all go to 179 via QB local (except late nights when all three would go to 71-Continetal) while the is QB express all the way (except late nights) since G passengers then would have the option of transferring to the , or at Queens Plaza (with the R during the L shutdown being 24/7 to 71-Continental and extended to 179 outside of late nights if all three go there outside of then) or via a new OOS transfer the 7/N/W at Queensboro Plaza. Not ideal, but being able to split the G passengers up between Court Square and Queens Plaza (and to a lesser extent Queensboro Plaza) is worth sending the G/M/R all to 179 (except late nights when it would be to 71-Continental).

 

Weekend CBTC Work on Queens Boulevard: This is the BIG sticky point as I doubt the MTA can delay CBTC work on QB because of the shutdown because that could have a major ripple effect with future CBTC projects down the road. That likely means there will be times where on weekends only one track is available in one or both directions for the , and , meaning no room then for the that would have to be cut to Court Square or the that would need most likely a Manhattan terminal other than Essex to terminate. My original idea was to have the terminate at 96th/2nd on weekends when QB was unavailable so displaced riders have direct 6th Avenue service at Myrtle-Wyckoff no matter what, but given what subsequently was said by others about Upper East Side riders demanding any weekend service to 96th/2nd becoming seven days a week for them (and the political clout they have), that's why I came up with the split M/T that has the at its current service levels to 71-Continental 19/5 and the supplementing the on weekdays (max of 5-7 TPH to 96th/2nd weekdays, even at peak hours) and the late nights (3-5 TPH, 4-6 TPH late Friday and Saturday) and weekends (7-9 TPH) being the line between Metropolitan and 96th/2nd, operating 24/7.

 

No matter how you slice it, this will be ugly.

MY HEAD!!!!

Anyway, why is the MTA shutting down 3rd Avenue in both options?

[RailRunRob]

It's not the buses.  The concern some have (including as noted the Manhattan Borough President) in a likelihood is gridlock, particular because of those coming in from New Jersey who can't or won't give up their cars.  That's the problem.

There is a something called the DOT...  There going to have to get off there bum and enforce. NJ and 14th street? Canal, Houston maybe plus it's a grid the traffic can be dispersed. What's your connection with 14th street and NJ? Im confused?!

[Threxx]

Now now now, Montague was done ahead of schedule. The same could happen here.

 

People only seem to remember the bad. Never the good.

I know there have been examples of MTA work being completed ahead of schedule (a lot of the FasTrack work) but there are examples of it going grossly behind schedule (SAS, extension, and the Culver Viaduct work).

 

Like I said, we'll have to wait and see. Considering how many people this is affecting I would hope they'd put more effort to get this done ASAP once it starts.

[RailRunRob]

No yard to service them over there either

Exactly.. 

[MTA Bus]

Maybe they could use some R32(4 cars) sets as L Shuttle between 1 Av to 8 Av.

I feel like the MTA would not do that because of CBTC.

[RailRunRob]

I feel like the MTA would not do that because of CBTC.

Reprogram the computer that's the easy part. There's a saying in engineering 100 things have go right at any given time for success but even if 1 part of 100 has a issue.. failure!! So just following this principle and rule of logic. Running trains with levels and levels of independently moving parts and operations. From signaling CBTC, Power distribution, traction power, HVAC, customer safety, scheduling and operation logistics.. And that's just 6 independent levels of maintenance there's at least 6 more things i'm missing. To think they should run trains for 18 months cut off from a yard.. and rest of the Railroad well that's kinda asking for trouble to say the least. I'm sure there's something in a FTA handbook that has that breaking some type of rules.

[Javier]

You can't just leave R143's/R160's cut off from the yard and the entire subway network for 18 months, that's just unacceptable.

[Lance]

I feel like the MTA would not do that because of CBTC.

And that feeling would be absolutely correct. There are no standard signals west of Broadway Junction. Any service would have to run on an absolute block.

 

@Wallyhorse: Posting a wall of text doesn't make your ideas any less nonsensical. How are you going to store multiple train sets, even four-car short sets on a line that has no tail tracks? Since your idea is to store them on one of the tracks at 8 Avenue and/or 1 Avenue, you're severely limiting the amount of trains you can run at any given point. Also, you're limited by whatever renovation work is being done at the time. And again, you're ignoring the issue of isolating the potential shuttle from the rest of the system. Sure, you've allotted a set time for trains to be moved, but what if something happens outside of that window? Something that requires the train be moved immediately, but there are no tracks because they've been removed to fix the structure? What now?

 

Another thing that's really gotten annoying as of late is your insistence that certain politicians will catch a hissy fit if things aren't exactly as they want them. Newsflash, this service change affects a lot of people on both sides of the river, not just a couple of people who fear gridlock above everything else. The Manhattan borough president can complain until the end of time, but the fact remains that most people would prefer a full closure to get this project completely faster over a bunch of half-assed stop and start methods. As I stated a couple of pages back, even with limited service, the shuttle buses would still be required to meet demand.

 

Finally, stop with the <X> to 96 Street proposals. They are completely pointless and do absolutely nothing to help the riders as you claim. Your latest idea of a 6th Ave between 96 Street and Metropolitan Av is completely useless as it mirrors the for two-thirds of the latter's route. Besides, the will definitely run between Manhattan and Metropolitan Av 19/7 as it has every time the is suspended between Manhattan and Brooklyn since 2010. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the ran 24/7 during the upcoming shutdown.

[GojiMet86]

He's told the same thing over at SubChat, too.

[CenSin]

Another thing that's really gotten annoying as of late is your insistence that certain politicians will catch a hissy fit if things aren't exactly as they want them. Newsflash, this service change affects a lot of people on both sides of the river, not just a couple of people who fear gridlock above everything else. The Manhattan borough president can complain until the end of time, but the fact remains that most people would prefer a full closure to get this project completely faster over a bunch of half-assed stop and start methods. As I stated a couple of pages back, even with limited service, the shuttle buses would still be required to meet demand.

In other news, Council of Ants protests death by shoes; but no shoe gave a damn.

Finally, stop with the <X> to 96 Street proposals. They are completely pointless and do absolutely nothing to help the riders as you claim. Your latest idea of a 6th Ave between 96 Street and Metropolitan Av is completely useless as it mirrors the for two-thirds of the latter's route. Besides, the will definitely run between Manhattan and Metropolitan Av 19/7 as it has every time the is suspended between Manhattan and Brooklyn since 2010. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the ran 24/7 during the upcoming shutdown.

The same idea has been pitched since January 15. After tons of feedback, it’s May 6 and the same idea is still being pitched.

It's not the buses.  The concern some have (including as noted the Manhattan Borough President) in a likelihood is gridlock, particular because of those coming in from New Jersey who can't or won't give up their cars.  That's the problem.

The unfounded concern…

[CenSin]

Given this shutdown is expected to be right after the election for Governor of New York, you have to wonder if this closure is going to play into the Governor's race in two years, especially if a strong candidate is put up against Cuomo who for example vows to order the MTA to keep the Manhattan side of the L running during this shutdown.

This will not be important to any politician except when it gets fixed in less than 2 years.

 

Given the Manhattan Borough President continues to insist on having 1st-8th Avenue service running during the shutdown, my compromise:

A borough president is like a nobody. Their demands do not need to be placated.

 

One tunnel is completely shut down during this time at all times.  The other is worked on simultaneously, but in a way where every 6-10 weeks (usually during late night hours), it can be reopened so non-electric leads can come in and take the cars in Manhattan back for inspections and replace them with a new batch of cars that take over operations on the shuttles (again 6-8 sets so there always are three sets available for operation of the shuttle).  Once work on the completely shut down tunnel is complete enough so it can be used without any issues for transporting cars (during which time work on ADA access for 1st Avenue and the new Avenue A entrance is done), the tunnel that had been opened up every several weeks to switch out cars is completely shut down and work is completed on that tunnel while the other is only used to transport cars every few weeks until full signaling is restored and it is not longer necessary to run an absolute block through it.

“But in a way” expands to some inconvenient facts:

• What if there are no tracks in either tunnel because of the nature of the work? Not having to install or maintain temporary tracks at regular intervals makes work faster.
• What if parts of the tunnel need to be used to store material for use? Ease of transportation and storage of materials factors into the time spent on tunnel work.

Might take a bit longer this way, but it placates pols in Manhattan who I suspect will join the Manhattan Borough President in keeping 1st-8th Avenues running during the shutdown with the big concern being gridlock, not necessarily from extra buses that have to be run across 14th Street to accommodate those from the shutdown, but from those likely insisting on driving into Manhattan because the replacement options for the L are too inconvenient for them (and not necessarily on 14th Street itself either) and those in New Jersey who likely can't or won't give up their cars that won't necessarily go into 14th Street, but because of additional traffic there could create traffic problems elsewhere.

The politicians do not need to be placated. This orgy of Manhattan pols will accomplish nothing other than infuriate Brooklynites who now have to wait over 3 years just so those in Manhattan can have a 20-minute-headway shuttle that will be (on average) slower than waiting for a bus.

[bstar1]

Are they shutting down the whole L line from Canarsie Brooklyn to Manhattan or Short-turns Bway Junction or Myrtle-Wyckoff or Lorimer?

[RailRunRob]

Are they shutting down the whole L line from Canarsie Brooklyn to Manhattan or Short-turns Bway Junction or Myrtle-Wyckoff or Lorimer?

Look's like Canarsie to Bedford Ave.. from the MTA's plan maps.

[Lance]

Are they shutting down the whole L line from Canarsie Brooklyn to Manhattan or Short-turns Bway Junction or Myrtle-Wyckoff or Lorimer?

 

Look's like Canarsie to Bedford Ave.. from the MTA's plan maps.

Under the full closure option, all service from Canarsie will terminate at Bedford Av, whereas under the partial closure option, there will be no service between Bedford Av and Lorimer St to facilitate the single-track operation between 8 Avenue and Bedford Av.

[RailRunRob]

 

 

 

Under the full closure option, all service from Canarsie will terminate at Bedford Av, whereas under the partial closure option, there will be no service between Bedford Av and Lorimer St to facilitate the single-track operation between 8 Avenue and Bedford Av.

 

Just noticed that.. That would the best case scenario if they decide to go with single track operation. The break in the line would discourage riders from points east from thinking they could somehow squeeze onto these shuttle trains heading into Manhattan. So now I only have to deal with ridership for six stations with no through traffic. With service maybe every 10-15 mins from(Bedford). Should be able to run 3 trains at a time max. with the main bottleneck from 3rd to Bedford with one 1 Track. The schedule would be a little uneven  Every 6-8 mins from 8th with a slight hold at Union Sq for a incoming to clear the switch. 2 trains would probably be more ideal less points of failure. But all and all feasible.

[Wallyhorse]

There is a something called the DOT...  There going to have to get off there bum and enforce. NJ and 14th street? Canal, Houston maybe plus it's a grid the traffic can be dispersed. What's your connection with 14th street and NJ? Im confused?!

It's NOT that cars from New Jersey would be causing any gridlock issues on 14th Street.  It's just the additional buses needed on 14th Street to accommodate some displaced riders that potentially causes gridlock there coupled with those particularly from New Jersey who can't or won't give up their cars then coming into traffic backed up elsewhere as a direct result of gridlock creating bigger problems.  It's the overall situation I'm looking at.

 

Do agree the DOT would have to really do their work here.