Fresh Pond Posted January 31, 2016 Share #101 Posted January 31, 2016 As said before, my idea is simply a lesser evil. Having the and both terminate (on weekdays) at Chambers with it set up where trains during those hours always meet a train to continue to lower Manhattan and Bay Ridge (excluding a handful of trains during rush hour that would continue to Broad where they would NOT meet a at Chambers because of more than trains running) to me is the best way to supplement the enough so people (and the pols) in Brooklyn stop complaining. Extending the late nights and weekends to Metropolitan allows for the late-night and weekend shuttles to be eliminated in addition to the shuttle since this also absorbs that. As for skip-stop on the , during peak hours you could have such marked where the during those times stops where they do now and a <J> stops where the does now. If I had a dollar for every time you threw this idea out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyer 230 Posted January 31, 2016 Share #102 Posted January 31, 2016 That's why for now Chambers-to-Bay Ridge is probably the best of a bunch of bad options: Mine (new full-time train) is as noted a SUPPLEMENT to the that would likely be at peak times 6-8 TPH. It would be set up so all trains on weekdays would meet trains directly across the platform at Chambers, with during peak hours having that are not scheduled to meet a at Chambers continuing to Broad and turning around there (the otherwise would also terminate at Chambers). The 24/7 benefits of my version of the are they eliminate the need for the shuttle overnights while overnights and weekends by being extended to Metropolitan also eliminates the need for the shuttles during those hours. Why do you keep talking about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsaitamaboss Posted January 31, 2016 Share #103 Posted January 31, 2016 Why do you keep talking about this? Ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted January 31, 2016 Share #104 Posted January 31, 2016 Maybe I'm missing something here. I was taught throughout my RTO career that you want to isolate your problem first. This keeps it from spreading and becoming worse. Reading this thread it seems that some people want to spread the problem around. The line has nothing to do with the problems of the line in Bay Ridge. Why spread the problem around ? If I have an illness should I intentionally embrace someone else? Just asking. BTW we all know that there is no separate line , so let's call it the and leave it at that. To the poster who asked about express service from Broadway Junction for most of my life the locals began at that stop or Atlantic Avenue or Canarsie on the line while the Jamaica trains ran express. Back when those trains were numbered and named. IIRC the local was #14 the Broadway Short line, the #15 was the Jamaica train and the #16 was the Canarsie line. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B46 via Utica Posted January 31, 2016 Share #105 Posted January 31, 2016 If I had a dollar for every time you threw this idea out... IKR and if I had a dollar for every time the to 9 ave has been rejected and proven as an awful proposal as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T to Dyre Avenue Posted January 31, 2016 Share #106 Posted January 31, 2016 Maybe I'm missing something here. I was taught throughout my RTO career that you want to isolate your problem first. This keeps it from spreading and becoming worse. Reading this thread it seems that some people want to spread the problem around. The line has nothing to do with the problems of the line in Bay Ridge. Why spread the problem around ? If I have an illness should I intentionally embrace someone else? Just asking. BTW we all know that there is no separate line , so let's call it the and leave it at that. To the poster who asked about express service from Broadway Junction for most of my life the locals began at that stop or Atlantic Avenue or Canarsie on the line while the Jamaica trains ran express. Back when those trains were numbered and named. IIRC the local was #14 the Broadway Short line, the #15 was the Jamaica train and the #16 was the Canarsie line. Carry on.The line's problems have a tendency to occur more often in Manhattan or Queens (and often in the same day) as opposed to Brooklyn. I ride the line every day and get Subway Alerts by e-mail every weekday, so I know. The Brooklyn/Lower Manhattan part of the line should be the most reliable part because it is there that the has its tracks all to itself (under normal conditions, of course). But with all the signal and switch problems, sick passengers and all the NYPD and FDNY "investigations" that tend to occur further uptown, it does affect service at the station below Canal. There is no way around that. What exactly is the problem that would be "spread around" if the replaced the in Brooklyn? If anything, if the were to be truncated at Whitehall, then wouldn't that be more likely to contain the problem as opposed to spreading it? Is the current J line from JC to Broad just as unreliable as the current R is? If so, then your objections to extending the J to south Brooklyn are valid reasons not to. But, except for the section between Myrtle and Essex shared with the , the is self-contained. How could it be just as unreliable? The in Manhattan/Queens has no such luck and is usually the one that gets held in the station or the 11th St Cut to allow one of the other trains it shares with to go ahead of it. Going back to a previous post of yours in this thread, what about service on the north end of the ? I didn't propose any changes on the Jamaica end. No killing off skip-stop service or the weekday peak express service between Myrtle and Marcy. In fact I believe I suggested expanding skip-stop service to run for the entire length of the am and pm rush periods as opposed to the paltry 50-55 minutes it currently runs. Yes, there was an RJ train that got killed off because "no one wanted the Nassau St Loop" in 1967. An example from 49 years ago. And it ran in addition to the RR train, not in place of it. And the RJ had multiple merges with other lines. And apparently, then as now, people jumped off the RR in favor of the express N at 59th. So what's the difference if it's the J running as the 4th Ave Local as opposed to the R, if people are still changing for the N at 59th, the D at 36th or the IRT at Atlantic? This J, unlike the RJ of yesteryear, would have only a merge with all the M and would run the same as now north of Broad. And the Nassau St Line has more transfers than the R between Whitehall and City Hall. Other than the inability to run 600-foot trains on the J and the limited clearance in the Montague tunnel preventing R32 and 42 cars, I really don't see how the J is a "much worse" option than the current R is. Especially given all the troubles the R experiences above Canal St. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsaitamaboss Posted February 1, 2016 Share #107 Posted February 1, 2016 IKR and if I had a dollar for every time the to 9 ave has been rejected and proven as an awful proposal as well. Well to 9th ave it is useless to bay ridge however is way better fools love to make excuses why it can't be done like how skip-stop will be affected it won't but apparently some are not very good at paying attention or I don't know thinking. What point of is useless do some not get? Swap cars from the to the end of story drop from brooklyn use add service to problem solved. Have go express and restore . Or have get pumped full of service and goes with the . Maybe I'm missing something here. I was taught throughout my RTO career that you want to isolate your problem first. This keeps it from spreading and becoming worse. Reading this thread it seems that some people want to spread the problem around. The line has nothing to do with the problems of the line in Bay Ridge. Why spread the problem around ? If I have an illness should I intentionally embrace someone else? Just asking. BTW we all know that there is no separate line , so let's call it the and leave it at that. To the poster who asked about express service from Broadway Junction for most of my life the locals began at that stop or Atlantic Avenue or Canarsie on the line while the Jamaica trains ran express. Back when those trains were numbered and named. IIRC the local was #14 the Broadway Short line, the #15 was the Jamaica train and the #16 was the Canarsie line. Carry on. How did it run? There are only 3 tracks on the broadway line? Is such a service today even possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted February 1, 2016 Share #108 Posted February 1, 2016 Well to 9th ave it is useless to bay ridge however is way better fools love to make excuses why it can't be done like how skip-stop will be affected it won't but apparently some are not very good at paying attention or I don't know thinking. What point of is useless do some not get? Swap cars from the to the end of story drop from brooklyn use add service to problem solved. Have go express and restore . Or have get pumped full of service and goes with the . Few things wrong with that... 1. The uses 75' cars, which are banned from going into BMT east ( lines) territory. 2. Both the R32 & R42 are banned from running through Montague. 3. A full length train is a whopping 120' shorter (2 car lengths) shorter than a full length train. ..apparently you're not good with paying attention qjtransitmaster. ...nice OPM reference in your name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted February 1, 2016 Share #109 Posted February 1, 2016 Few things wrong with that... 1. The uses 75' cars, which are banned from going into BMT east ( lines) territory. 2. Both the R32 & R42 are banned from running through Montague. 3. A full length train is a whopping 120' shorter (2 car lengths) shorter than a full length train. ..apparently you're not good with paying attention qjtransitmaster. ...nice OPM reference in your name LMAOOOO busted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 1, 2016 Share #110 Posted February 1, 2016 LMAOOOO busted! I said it was him weeks ago and I stand by that comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted February 1, 2016 Share #111 Posted February 1, 2016 The line's problems have a tendency to occur more often in Manhattan or Queens (and often in the same day) as opposed to Brooklyn. I ride the line every day and get Subway Alerts by e-mail every weekday, so I know. The Brooklyn/Lower Manhattan part of the line should be the most reliable part because it is there that the has its tracks all to itself (under normal conditions, of course). But with all the signal and switch problems, sick passengers and all the NYPD and FDNY "investigations" that tend to occur further uptown, it does affect service at the station below Canal. There is no way around that. What exactly is the problem that would be "spread around" if the replaced the in Brooklyn? If anything, if the were to be truncated at Whitehall, then wouldn't that be more likely to contain the problem as opposed to spreading it? Is the current J line from JC to Broad just as unreliable as the current R is? If so, then your objections to extending the J to south Brooklyn are valid reasons not to. But, except for the section between Myrtle and Essex shared with the , the is self-contained. How could it be just as unreliable? The in Manhattan/Queens has no such luck and is usually the one that gets held in the station or the 11th St Cut to allow one of the other trains it shares with to go ahead of it. Going back to a previous post of yours in this thread, what about service on the north end of the ? I didn't propose any changes on the Jamaica end. No killing off skip-stop service or the weekday peak express service between Myrtle and Marcy. In fact I believe I suggested expanding skip-stop service to run for the entire length of the am and pm rush periods as opposed to the paltry 50-55 minutes it currently runs. Yes, there was an RJ train that got killed off because "no one wanted the Nassau St Loop" in 1967. An example from 49 years ago. And it ran in addition to the RR train, not in place of it. And the RJ had multiple merges with other lines. And apparently, then as now, people jumped off the RR in favor of the express N at 59th. So what's the difference if it's the J running as the 4th Ave Local as opposed to the R, if people are still changing for the N at 59th, the D at 36th or the IRT at Atlantic? This J, unlike the RJ of yesteryear, would have only a merge with all the M and would run the same as now north of Broad. And the Nassau St Line has more transfers than the R between Whitehall and City Hall. Other than the inability to run 600-foot trains on the J and the limited clearance in the Montague tunnel preventing R32 and 42 cars, I really don't see how the J is a "much worse" option than the current R is. Especially given all the troubles the R experiences above Canal St. I'm giving you a + 1 for your well thought out rebuttal to my previous posts while I give myself a -2. What I was trying to say about the line and the variants that preceded it was that line, because of it's routing from Jamaica through Woodhaven, was always considered a primary line and not really interfered with like some others. From Jamaica Center to Broadway Junction it was the sole NYCT rapid transit link with only the B/Q 56 and B22/Q24 bus as an alternative in case of a service outage. IMO it's sole function is to connect JC and points S and SE to the financial district. It seems to do that job well. Contrast that line with the and it's treatment by RTO. Bear with me as I try to explain what I see happening. I worked the and lines in the IRT. These were considered "supplemental" lines in RTO. In-house they were "basta*d" lines. West Side the and weren't jerked around. Delay on the local meant send the down the local while the ran express. East Side local delay meant send the local even though the Dyre to Flatbush run was longer than the from Woodlawn to Utica. From your posts I gather the and have priority over the . Think about what we"re saying here. Your is delayed uptown and there is a big gap in service. I don't recall every tower in that division but let's say Essex , City Hall , and DeKalb , are all aware of the gap. In your experience have you ever heard of a sent to cover the gap? Has an ever been re-routed over the bridge to cover the gap? Has an ever been re-routed into 95th St to cover that gap ? If the was sent out there permanently do they even have the trainsets and crews to cover the added stops? Do I have to use Coney Island Yard or somewhere else to service my equipment? If the is truncated to Whitehall St from Queens what runs from there into Brooklyn? Just asking. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 1, 2016 Share #112 Posted February 1, 2016 Some good points. The problem is now you have pols wanting something done with the Brooklyn end and long-running complaints about gaps in service on the , especially late evenings. That is what I was trying to solve with making the a full-time (24/7) line that would local in what essentially is the old "Brown Bankers Special" running from 95th Street-Chambers (max of most likely 8TPH) while the runs from Jamaica Center-Chambers Street, set up where with some exceptions in peak hours, the would always come into Chambers on the "express" track with a across the platform for those continuing to Fulton or Broad (and vice versa the other way with a coming into Chambers to meet a there). During peak hours, trains that would come into Chambers NOT scheduled to meet a train would be scheduled to run to/from Broad Street (those above what number of trains would be running during those hours). This gives those along Bay Ridge and 4th Avenue a second weekday local and ALSO late nights a line (in the new train) that runs the full Brooklyn portion of the route before heading for Nassau. As previously noted, this as a 24/7 line would late nights and weekends be extended to Metropolitan Avenue to absorb the current shuttles. Yes, it would mean having to perhaps for skip-stop service on the have trains that currently are signed as be signed as a <J> (and perhaps those signed as <J> be the ones that begin and end at Broad Street), but again, this to me is the lesser of all evils barring major re-structuring once the SAS comes on at the end of this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted February 1, 2016 Share #113 Posted February 1, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsaitamaboss Posted February 1, 2016 Share #114 Posted February 1, 2016 Try removing from the broadway local and boosting service. Few things wrong with that...1. The uses 75' cars, which are banned from going into BMT east ( lines) territory.2. Both the R32 & R42 are banned from running through Montague.3. A full length train is a whopping 120' shorter (2 car lengths) shorter than a full length train...apparently you're not good with paying attention qjtransitmaster....nice OPM reference in your name To be honest I am an anime fan actually but this computer was given to me. Plus I guess the can swap while changing around existing equipment. However I prefer rail rather than bus. The trains don't have to be so long anyway. Which can counter your argument. You should pay attention to the whole system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsaitamaboss Posted February 1, 2016 Share #115 Posted February 1, 2016 I'm giving you a + 1 for your well thought out rebuttal to my previous posts while I give myself a -2. What I was trying to say about the line and the variants that preceded it was that line, because of it's routing from Jamaica through Woodhaven, was always considered a primary line and not really interfered with like some others. From Jamaica Center to Broadway Junction it was the sole NYCT rapid transit link with only the B/Q 56 and B22/Q24 bus as an alternative in case of a service outage. IMO it's sole function is to connect JC and points S and SE to the financial district. It seems to do that job well. Contrast that line with the and it's treatment by RTO. Bear with me as I try to explain what I see happening. I worked the and lines in the IRT. These were considered "supplemental" lines in RTO. In-house they were "basta*d" lines. West Side the and weren't jerked around. Delay on the local meant send the down the local while the ran express. East Side local delay meant send the local even though the Dyre to Flatbush run was longer than the from Woodlawn to Utica. From your posts I gather the and have priority over the . Think about what we"re saying here. Your is delayed uptown and there is a big gap in service. I don't recall every tower in that division but let's say Essex , City Hall , and DeKalb , are all aware of the gap. In your experience have you ever heard of a sent to cover the gap? Has an ever been re-routed over the bridge to cover the gap? Has an ever been re-routed into 95th St to cover that gap ? If the was sent out there permanently do they even have the trainsets and crews to cover the added stops? Do I have to use Coney Island Yard or somewhere else to service my equipment? If the is truncated to Whitehall St from Queens what runs from there into Brooklyn? Just asking. Carry on. Will admit I will leave that argument to him as he has a stronger argument for what to do on the 4th ave local. I don't know why if someone with the same argument is not getting the backlash I get it makes no sense. I and T to dyre are saying the exact same thing. Can you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstar1 Posted February 1, 2016 Share #116 Posted February 1, 2016 They will not bring into South Brooklyn doesn't provide direct service into Midtown Manhattan where most people need to go. Current service provide direct local service in Brooklyn Manhattan Queens also station from Dekalb Av to Canal St and South Ferry Service at Whitehall St which is closer than taking to Broad St. run with fewer or shorter trains and current uses longer trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsaitamaboss Posted February 1, 2016 Share #117 Posted February 1, 2016 They will not bring into South Brooklyn doesn't provide direct service into Midtown Manhattan where most people need to go. Current service provide direct local service in Brooklyn Manhattan Queens also station from Dekalb Av to Canal St and South Ferry Service at Whitehall St which is closer than taking to Broad St. run with fewer or shorter trains and current uses longer trains. Neither does the many transfer anyway thus invalidating that argument as T dyre has mentioned. Longer trains are useless if the waits are 20+ minutes the ferry isn't frequent enough that is what the are for anyway. The can handle Manhattan or or truncated at Whitehall will boost reliability. The will still pass through Dekalb where people can cross the platform for express service. Direct service is worthless with rampant unreliability that eliminates any time savings with direct service. Shorter more frequent and consistent subway trains are better than longer less reliable and frequent ones just try the in Brooklyn yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstar1 Posted February 1, 2016 Share #118 Posted February 1, 2016 Neither does the many transfer anyway thus invalidating that argument as T dyre has mentioned. Longer trains are useless if the waits are 20+ minutes the ferry isn't frequent enough that is what the are for anyway. The can handle Manhattan or or truncated at Whitehall will boost reliability. The will still pass through Dekalb where people can cross the platform for express service. Direct service is worthless with rampant unreliability that eliminates any time savings with direct service. Shorter more frequent and consistent subway trains are better than longer less reliable and frequent ones just try the in Brooklyn yeah. How could someone get to stations Jay St/Court St/Whitehall St/Rector St/Cortlandt St/City Hall/Canal St and Broadway line if there's no thru service®. only provide service to Lower Manhattan but not Upper most people need to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted February 1, 2016 Share #119 Posted February 1, 2016 Try removing from the broadway local and boosting service. To be honest I am an anime fan actually but this computer was given to me. Plus I guess the can swap while changing around existing equipment. However I prefer rail rather than bus. The trains don't have to be so long anyway. Which can counter your argument. You should pay attention to the whole system. There's nothing to swap it with other than the or .... The 42s are highly frowned upon (possibly banned) operating in 8 car sets on the . The 143s aren't going nowhere but the , and the & since they use the same yard. That just leaves the 32s and 160s which already run on the . They are not gonna run shorter trains on the , that's just suicide. You should know better than that QJT, this ain't your first time here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted February 2, 2016 Share #120 Posted February 2, 2016 Each time I go back and read this thread in it's entirety I get caught up with what T to Dyre Avenue mentioned.. The delays happening in Queens and Upper Manhattan affecting the line. Obviously anything running on Queens Blvd is subject to delays, especially weekends when there is CBTC work scheduled from now on. Ask any IRT rider or employee how long and miserable it was when the signal modernization work for ATS was done. The last few posts I made in this thread were made to find out why and how these delays were affecting the in particular without getting into the line issues. From some of these posts it's clear to me that the is the red-headed stepchild here. I've asked a question about another line being re-routed to cover a 30 minute gap in service but no one has responded to that yet. My next question is if these problems crop up in Midtown south of Lexington Avenue why not similar outcries from the and riders in Brooklyn? Any signal problem, NYPD, FDNY, or EMS action would impact all 3 lines, wouldn't it? As I've pointed out before I've never worked a road job in that division but from my personal experience if there is/was a gap in service approaching 30 minutes either a train traveling in the other direction would be turned back for service or an would have been sent down to Ft Hamilton to cover the gap. For people to say this has become a common condition down there with nothing being done is totally unacceptable IMO. If you go back to page one of this thread you might notice mention of the SAS from the TA spokesman (or shill) as someone called him. IF this train delay is ever cleared up before the SAS is up and running I was thinking why not run the into Astoria with the and re-institute the EE service from Forest Hills to Whitehall ? That way if there's a delay on lower Broadway or on Queens Blvd the can use the bridge to reach Brooklyn. This would isolate the problem to the EE. Just thinking out loud though. I'd still like to hear why the current issues only affect the . It just doesn't make sense to me. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted February 2, 2016 Share #121 Posted February 2, 2016 Well to 9th ave it is useless to bay ridge however is way better fools love to make excuses why it can't be done like how skip-stop will be affected it won't but apparently some are not very good at paying attention or I don't know thinking. What point of is useless do some not get? Swap cars from the to the end of story drop from brooklyn use add service to problem solved. Have go express and restore . Or have get pumped full of service and goes with the . How did it run? There are only 3 tracks on the broadway line? Is such a service today even possible? How many tracks are there on the White Plains Road, Pelham, or Flushing line ? I'll wait......................Don't they run express service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsaitamaboss Posted February 2, 2016 Share #122 Posted February 2, 2016 How many tracks are there on the White Plains Road, Pelham, or Flushing line ? I'll wait......................Don't they run express service? But only peak direction express service operates the MTA would have to run it one direction all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted February 2, 2016 Share #123 Posted February 2, 2016 But only peak direction express service operates the MTA would have to run it one direction all the way. And that's the way it ran since I was a child back in the mid Fifties. Same way skip-stop ran in the peak direction then all Jamaica trains traveled express to/from Broadway Junction/ Eastern Parkway. Got that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 2, 2016 Share #124 Posted February 2, 2016 I'm not sure the pols would agree. I would think the pols would like it because the new would provide 4th Avenue in Brooklyn with additional local service, running with the to Court Street before breaking away to Nassau and running to Chambers where it would (on weekdays) meet the train for what at least in theory would be an easy cross-platform transfer between the two lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted February 2, 2016 Share #125 Posted February 2, 2016 I'm not sure the pols would agree. I would think the pols would like it because the new would provide 4th Avenue in Brooklyn with additional local service, running with the to Court Street before breaking away to Nassau and running to Chambers where it would (on weekdays) meet the train for what at least in theory would be an easy cross-platform transfer between the two lines. You're like a parrot. They don't care what happens, just as long as whatever happens makes them look good in the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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