Lordsaitamaboss Posted February 2, 2016 Share #126 Posted February 2, 2016 And that's the way it ran since I was a child back in the mid Fifties. Same way skip-stop ran in the peak direction then all Jamaica trains traveled express to/from Broadway Junction/ Eastern Parkway. Got that? Peak trains to/from jamacia basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itmaybeokay Posted February 2, 2016 Share #127 Posted February 2, 2016 Each time I go back and read this thread in it's entirety I get caught up with what T to Dyre Avenue mentioned.. The delays happening in Queens and Upper Manhattan affecting the line. Obviously anything running on Queens Blvd is subject to delays, especially weekends when there is CBTC work scheduled from now on. Ask any IRT rider or employee how long and miserable it was when the signal modernization work for ATS was done. The last few posts I made in this thread were made to find out why and how these delays were affecting the in particular without getting into the line issues. From some of these posts it's clear to me that the is the red-headed stepchild here. I've asked a question about another line being re-routed to cover a 30 minute gap in service but no one has responded to that yet. My next question is if these problems crop up in Midtown south of Lexington Avenue why not similar outcries from the and riders in Brooklyn? Any signal problem, NYPD, FDNY, or EMS action would impact all 3 lines, wouldn't it? As I've pointed out before I've never worked a road job in that division but from my personal experience if there is/was a gap in service approaching 30 minutes either a train traveling in the other direction would be turned back for service or an would have been sent down to Ft Hamilton to cover the gap. For people to say this has become a common condition down there with nothing being done is totally unacceptable IMO. If you go back to page one of this thread you might notice mention of the SAS from the TA spokesman (or shill) as someone called him. IF this train delay is ever cleared up before the SAS is up and running I was thinking why not run the into Astoria with the and re-institute the EE service from Forest Hills to Whitehall ? That way if there's a delay on lower Broadway or on Queens Blvd the can use the bridge to reach Brooklyn. This would isolate the problem to the EE. Just thinking out loud though. I'd still like to hear why the current issues only affect the . It just doesn't make sense to me. Carry on. I mean, the only real "why not" here is because the would then lack direct connection to a yard, that's why the was taken off of the astoria line to begin with. But your proposed EE sounds great- that's the way service ran when Montague was closed for sandy repairs - and the northern half of the line ran like a dream, let me tell you. But, I doubt they'll go that route because they seem pretty hell bent on the direct yard connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted February 2, 2016 Share #128 Posted February 2, 2016 I mean, the only real "why not" here is because the would then lack direct connection to a yard, that's why the was taken off of the astoria line to begin with. But your proposed EE sounds great- that's the way service ran when Montague was closed for sandy repairs - and the northern half of the line ran like a dream, let me tell you. But, I doubt they'll go that route because they seem pretty hell bent on the direct yard connection. just use the unused express track provisions for layup tracks, or use the walled off portion to 101 Street that as tunnelrat says was supposed to be a layup yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted February 3, 2016 Share #129 Posted February 3, 2016 I mean, the only real "why not" here is because the would then lack direct connection to a yard, that's why the was taken off of the astoria line to begin with. But your proposed EE sounds great- that's the way service ran when Montague was closed for sandy repairs - and the northern half of the line ran like a dream, let me tell you. But, I doubt they'll go that route because they seem pretty hell bent on the direct yard connection. I thought of the yard issue myself and wondered if an EE could be swapped for an at Whitehall St. My idea was the and EE sharing the same equipment. There were times where I swapped my with my follower at Utica Avenue. Actually the issue with the to Astoria is more a barn issue rather than a yard issue. I don't know how many cars ( or trains) are due for inspection nightly at the assigned barn but the other lines housed there probably have an allotment too, depending on equipment and available tracks in the barn. I was a C/R and a M/M on the line when we ran mixed 9 car consists on the line. Cars were serviced at 240th St, 239th St, or East 180th St depending on the equipment in the consist. The yard was at Lenox Terminal but we also had am put ins laid up in Livonia Yard. I understand the concept of a dedicated yard but I also remember put ins on the yard leads from Coney Island Yard to the West End line. Obviously it can be done but I guess it's a last resort type thing.. I'm still curious about the delays reported on the line and how they don't seem to affect the and lines to the same degree. As a veteran of the Lexington Avenue corridor a delay on either line always affected the other two lines to some degree yet it appears only the Fourth Avenue local ridership has a beef. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted February 3, 2016 Share #130 Posted February 3, 2016 Trainmaster, remember that the have express runs that can offset potential delays. The is entirely local meaning not only will the original delay affect it but the delay will cascade as the first packed train after has to deal with all the passengers further down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 3, 2016 Share #131 Posted February 3, 2016 You're like a parrot. They don't care what happens, just as long as whatever happens makes them look good in the public. And this is what would make them look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T to Dyre Avenue Posted February 3, 2016 Share #132 Posted February 3, 2016 You're like a parrot. They don't care what happens, just as long as whatever happens makes them look good in the public. Well to be fair, Councilman Gentile did propose a 95th-to-Chambers service and called for eliminating the late-night shuttle. But Gentile's proposed 4th Ave-Nassau service would run rush hours only, not 24/7 like Wally's train. And his proposal to eliminate the R shuttle presumably means returning the R to 24/7 operation (it last ran 24/7 in 1990). And Gentile's not calling for truncating the at Chambers. Can't say for sure if he's really offering some kind of workable solution or if he just cares about making himself look good. Trainmaster, remember that the have express runs that can offset potential delays. The is entirely local meaning not only will the original delay affect it but the delay will cascade as the first packed train after has to deal with all the passengers further down the line. The and also have alternate 6th Ave services that people can take if there are major delays on the Broadway Line in Manhattan. Brighton riders have the (only on weekdays, but still better than nothing) and Sea Beach riders can take the or even the to nearby stations and catch a bus if those stations aren't in walking distance of their home station. But riders - especially south of 36th St - don't really have that option now. The express buses are the only real alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted February 3, 2016 Share #133 Posted February 3, 2016 Well to be fair, Councilman Gentile did propose a 95th-to-Chambers service and called for eliminating the late-night shuttle. But Gentile's proposed 4th Ave-Nassau service would run rush hours only, not 24/7 like Wally's train. And his proposal to eliminate the R shuttle presumably means returning the R to 24/7 operation (it last ran 24/7 in 1990). And Gentile's not calling for truncating the at Chambers. Can't say for sure if he's really offering some kind of workable solution or if he just cares about making himself look good. The and also have alternate 6th Ave services that people can take if there are major delays on the Broadway Line in Manhattan. Brighton riders have the (only on weekdays, but still better than nothing) and Sea Beach riders can take the or even the to nearby stations and catch a bus if those stations aren't in walking distance of their home station. But riders - especially south of 36th St - don't really have that option now. The express buses are the only real alternative. What I'm trying to establish, at least to my satisfaction, is if there are significant blockages on the Broadway line is 1- Why isn't a n/b train turned back southward at 59th St, 36th St, Pacific St, etc. to cover a 30 minute gap in service. Surely local supervision as well as the RCC is aware(or should be) of the potential gap. That's a daily thing in the IRT 2- If there's a delay on the local in Midtown or further south it's not rocket science to avoid a major delay. Run the on the express track around the blockage until it's safe to put it back on it's route. Likewise if the delay is on the express track you'd run the and trains down the local until the blockage is passed. This leads back to my main question. If what i've laid out in point 2 is not followed there should be complaints from line riders and riders to a lesser extent. The Brighton does have the express counterpart weekdays.. I've read the posts from the riders out here but my fellow RTO posters will probably ask the same question I've been asking. From what everyone has posted about the poor service in Brooklyn which I'm not doubting BTW but where is the outcry from the and especially the line riders? If the is being delayed between Lexington Ave and Prince St the other two lines will be delayed too. The only way they wouldn't is if the switches in midtown and the one at Prince St were not in service. If the blockage is south of Prince St you send an across the bridge. I worked the Dyre line for years and those posters who know the upper Lex express line know that between 125th St and Grand Central if something happened ahead of you you were trapped unless you were at 86th St. The BMT Broadway line has more options to keep trains moving than we did. That's one of the things T/Os and C/Rs are taught in schoolcar. The IND and BMT can run around most of their problems better than the IRT. I'm trying to figure out what's going on with the because what you folks are describing shouldn't be happening, especially on a regular basis. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstar1 Posted February 3, 2016 Share #134 Posted February 3, 2016 Because on Weekdays run on same track from 60 St tunnel until 34 St. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted February 3, 2016 Share #135 Posted February 3, 2016 Because on Weekdays run on same track from 60 St tunnel until 34 St. Then they should all be delayed. Where is the outrage from the line, especially? Why no battery run for the ? That's what I'm getting at. I've been stuck in power off situations, smoke and fire conditions, 12-9 conditions and they still had enough service running to avoid 30 minute gaps most of the time. I was 2 trains behind a n/b train that derailed at 59th St and Lexington one pm rush, got re-routed up the local track and was only 7 minutes late at East 180th St.. That's with , , and on the same track. What I'm saying is even if there was a train stuck across the switches at 34th St blocking all service there's still no excuse for a 30 minute gap further down the line. There are established ways to avoid that. If there was a blockage at 59th St and Fourth Avenue in Brooklyn i could understand that. That's what I'm trying to comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 3, 2016 Share #136 Posted February 3, 2016 Because on Weekdays run on same track from 60 St tunnel until 34 St. And it may be time to do whatever work is necessary that would allow whatever is an express to be on the Express track to 57th and THEN merge north of there (and likewise be able to punch so they can get to the express track southbound). That would by itself solve many issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsunflyguy Posted February 3, 2016 Share #137 Posted February 3, 2016 And it may be time to do whatever work is necessary that would allow whatever is an express to be on the Express track to 57th and THEN merge north of there (and likewise be able to punch so they can get to the express track southbound). That would by itself solve many issues. That would be the SAS. That being said, there will still be another service to Astoria and 3 routes through the 60th st tubes. I suspect that the just isn't given priority so other services are being maintained at the ®s expense. At Prince the likely gets priority since its holding up the and the will go first at 34th when the layups block the express track as those Passengers will want to transfer to the to continue into Queens. Not to mention a problem on QBL will send the local, and they'll go in front of the (M)/® so they don't get stuck behind a relay. All-in-all there is no scenario where the will go first during any disruption or even in a tie. Correct me if I'm wrong but the didn't even have its own Line Manager during that program. It just doesn't seem like a route the MTA takes seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsaitamaboss Posted February 3, 2016 Share #138 Posted February 3, 2016 That would be the SAS. That being said, there will still be another service to Astoria and 3 routes through the 60th st tubes. I suspect that the just isn't given priority so other services are being maintained at the ®s expense. At Prince the likely gets priority since its holding up the and the will go first at 34th when the layups block the express track as those Passengers will want to transfer to the to continue into Queens. Not to mention a problem on QBL will send the local, and they'll go in front of the (M)/® so they don't get stuck behind a relay. All-in-all there is no scenario where the will go first during any disruption or even in a tie. Correct me if I'm wrong but the didn't even have its own Line Manager during that program. It just doesn't seem like a route the MTA takes seriously. You are right the MTA couldn't care less about the it is essentially a useless service sadly at the expense of south Brooklyn riders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T to Dyre Avenue Posted February 3, 2016 Share #139 Posted February 3, 2016 What I'm trying to establish, at least to my satisfaction, is if there are significant blockages on the Broadway line is 1- Why isn't a n/b train turned back southward at 59th St, 36th St, Pacific St, etc. to cover a 30 minute gap in service. Surely local supervision as well as the RCC is aware(or should be) of the potential gap. That's a daily thing in the IRT 2- If there's a delay on the local in Midtown or further south it's not rocket science to avoid a major delay. Run the on the express track around the blockage until it's safe to put it back on it's route. Likewise if the delay is on the express track you'd run the and trains down the local until the blockage is passed. This leads back to my main question. If what i've laid out in point 2 is not followed there should be complaints from line riders and riders to a lesser extent. The Brighton does have the express counterpart weekdays.. I've read the posts from the riders out here but my fellow RTO posters will probably ask the same question I've been asking. From what everyone has posted about the poor service in Brooklyn which I'm not doubting BTW but where is the outcry from the and especially the line riders? If the is being delayed between Lexington Ave and Prince St the other two lines will be delayed too. The only way they wouldn't is if the switches in midtown and the one at Prince St were not in service. If the blockage is south of Prince St you send an across the bridge. I worked the Dyre line for years and those posters who know the upper Lex express line know that between 125th St and Grand Central if something happened ahead of you you were trapped unless you were at 86th St. The BMT Broadway line has more options to keep trains moving than we did. That's one of the things T/Os and C/Rs are taught in schoolcar. The IND and BMT can run around most of their problems better than the IRT. I'm trying to figure out what's going on with the because what you folks are describing shouldn't be happening, especially on a regular basis. Carry on. Well, they definitely do what you described in point 2. It is not uncommon for trains to be rerouted around a blocked train or PD/FD investigation. They may all get sent down the express tracks, with the resuming its normal route before Canal (matter of fact, this happened yesterday going southbound). Sometimes, either the R is rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge or the N and Q are rerouted to the Montague Tunnel, with normal service resuming at DeKalb. Or the R gets rerouted over the 6th Ave Line and into Queens via the 53rd or 63rd St tunnels or into Brooklyn over the bridge and resume normal service at DeKalb. This last option may explain why what you described in point 1 doesn't happen very often. It's probably why I don't often see or hear about n/b R trains turning back south at Pacific, 36th or 59th in the event of a blockage in Manhattan or Queens. I think they prefer not to turn trains back, and will do so only if they can't go forward over a different line. Even if it means causing a bunch of passengers whose origin or destination happen to be the -only stops to experience long waits while the service attempts to get back to normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted May 2, 2016 Share #140 Posted May 2, 2016 Bringing this over from the "Both Sides of the Tracks" thread: I think I remember that guy T to Dyre Avenue saying that the local 4th Avenue stations south of 36th Street need more service, not just the ones north of 36th Street... So, therefore, sending the to Bay Parkway makes little sense. It was cut from Lower Manhattan and South Brooklyn back in 2010 for a reason. Almost no one used it and almost everybody wanted the express train via the bridge to Chinatown and Midtown. Also, isn't the 6 to 8 minute rush hour headways on the enough (unless the line is "always late and behind schedule" as everyone says...)? I doubt middays, evenings, and weekends (when the is suppose to run every 10 minutes), the 4th Avenue Local needs more service at those times either. Generally, seeing how useless the old was, I still don't even think there's a need for a second 4th Avenue Local service...yet at least... As for your #1, it's obviously because riders on the Myrtle Avenue and Broadway-Brooklyn lines have direct 6th Avenue service, so why should you now have them waste more time transferring to other lines (which are already overcrowded as they are) to reach Midtown? This isn't just 6th Avenue, we're talking about Chelsea and Midtown in general. The needs to stay buried and leave the current as it is. Exactly:Keep the as it is:If you reconnect the Brooklyn-bound track to the Manhattan Bridge (no need to connect the Manhattan-bound track), what you could do is the Nassau Street loop line I proposed before, but this time with 95th Street as the sole terminal. This is basically an off-shoot of my prior idea in this thread with the , except in this version the would make all stops in both directions between DeKalb Avenue and 95th Street but would only going northbound stop at Jay Street-Metrotech, Court Street, Broad Street, Fulton Street and Chambers Street (with Chambers Street technically the northern terminal for railroad purposes) before returning to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge with the actual sole terminal being 95th Street. This line can run 24/7 and eliminate the need for the late-night Shuttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted May 2, 2016 Share #141 Posted May 2, 2016 Bringing this over from the "Both Sides of the Tracks" thread: Exactly: Keep the as it is: If you reconnect the Brooklyn-bound track to the Manhattan Bridge (no need to connect the Manhattan-bound track), what you could do is the Nassau Street loop line I proposed before, but time with 95th Street as the sole terminal. This is basically an off-shoot of my prior idea in this thread with the , except in this version the would make all stops in both directions between DeKalb Avenue and 95th Street but would only going northbound would stop at Jay Street-Metrotech, Court Street, Broad Street, Fulton Street and Chambers Street (with Chambers Street technically the northern terminal for railroad purposes) before returning to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge with the actual sole terminal being 95th Street. This line can run 24/7 and eliminate the need for the late-night Shuttle. Stop necroposting, especially to say the same things over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted May 2, 2016 Share #142 Posted May 2, 2016 Sorry, I was doing it in this case to get this discussion out of the thread on the Rockaway Beach Branch argument knowing we had this thread from a while back as this was really more appropriate for this thread than the other one. It was done for that very specific reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted May 2, 2016 Share #143 Posted May 2, 2016 Do you enjoy screwing up the entire system? I ask because every time you make some random idea with the intent of fixing something, you mess up a huge chunk of the subway. Routing a Nassau Line to the Manhattan Bridge will not only affect the and using the south tracks of the bridge, but also the and , the latter of which you're trying to fix. There is a reason why the tunnel lines run local on 4th Avenue and the Bridge lines run either on the Brighton or 4th Avenue express lines. Mixing and matching the two are a recipe for disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted May 2, 2016 Share #144 Posted May 2, 2016 Do you enjoy screwing up the entire system? I ask because every time you make some random idea with the intent of fixing something, you mess up a huge chunk of the subway. Routing a Nassau Line to the Manhattan Bridge will not only affect the and using the south tracks of the bridge, but also the and , the latter of which you're trying to fix. There is a reason why the tunnel lines run local on 4th Avenue and the Bridge lines run either on the Brighton or 4th Avenue express lines. Mixing and matching the two are a recipe for disaster. exactly. We need less interlining, not more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted May 3, 2016 Share #145 Posted May 3, 2016 Do you enjoy screwing up the entire system? I ask because every time you make some random idea with the intent of fixing something, you mess up a huge chunk of the subway. Routing a Nassau Line to the Manhattan Bridge will not only affect the and using the south tracks of the bridge, but also the and , the latter of which you're trying to fix. There is a reason why the tunnel lines run local on 4th Avenue and the Bridge lines run either on the Brighton or 4th Avenue express lines. Mixing and matching the two are a recipe for disaster. Remember, in this scenario the would only use the Manhattan Bridge coming BACK from Manhattan (to Manhattan, it would operate via the tunnel via 4th avenue local all the way until it broke to reach the Nassau Line). This most likely would be a 6 TPH line max even at peak times so it likely would fit into going over the Manny B, especially since it would be only going over the bridge one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted May 3, 2016 Share #146 Posted May 3, 2016 It doesn't matter if it's coming, going or a bi-directional line. It's still a merging disaster. But since you insist, let me explain clearly why your would be one. (By the way, what happens to the Jamaica skip-stop? You've once again given that designation to another one of your other routes.) 1) From Chambers St, your line has to connect to Manhattan Bridge track H1, the Brooklyn-bound Broadway tracks. You're merging in front of the and trains right from the jump. 2) From the Bridge, it has to merge onto track A3 in order to stop at DeKalb Av and run local along 4th Avenue. You've just crossed in front of the with that merge. 3) Leaving DeKalb Av, your train has to switch over to B1 via F1 to get to the local tracks on 4th Avenue, which will get in front of the . On a good day, that would be a logistical nightmare. On a normal day when trains have to practically crawl into DeKalb Av, it would be almost impossible to run. Your trains would cause more delays than there already are. And for what? To revive the Centre St loop? Loop service was practically dead when the Montague-Centre connection opened in '31. It's a decomposed corpse now. If the object of this is to run the Nassau , run the Nassau . Stop trying to rearrange the system to fit routes nobody wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonbxny0619 Posted May 3, 2016 Share #147 Posted May 3, 2016 I proposed in the hearing for the 2nd Avenue subway extending the to Bay Parkway via West End & 4th Avenue local on rush hours to complement service in Brooklyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted May 3, 2016 Share #148 Posted May 3, 2016 That's not a bad idea and I wouldn't be surprised to see it when the MTA gets enough cars for a meaningful service expansion of service to Brooklyn. However, it would still be plagued by whatever problems affect the since the would mirror the line from Lexington Av. Also, if it runs down the West End line, the wouldn't help riders south of 36 Street. That's where all these ideas of restoring or adding some Jamaica-4th Avenue service on top of the . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46Dover Posted May 3, 2016 Share #149 Posted May 3, 2016 That's not a bad idea and I wouldn't be surprised to see it when the MTA gets enough cars for a meaningful service expansion of service to Brooklyn. However, it would still be plagued by whatever problems affect the since the would mirror the line from Lexington Av. Also, if it runs down the West End line, the wouldn't help riders south of 36 Street. That's where all these ideas of restoring or adding some Jamaica-4th Avenue service on top of the . Well what about going down the Sea Beach Line? I know about the massive rebuilding project with that line, but how about ending it at Kings Highway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteriousBtrain Posted May 3, 2016 Share #150 Posted May 3, 2016 Well what about going down the Sea Beach Line? I know about the massive rebuilding project with that line, but how about ending it at Kings Highway? Sea beach dosen't need that much service. the does just fine on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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