Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[pringle5095]

I would put the on QBL and have the use the Bypass. QBL local is , QBL express is

 

Under this plan:

Jamaica Center-WTC via Archer Av Line, QBL Express, 8 Av Local

 

179 St-Coney Island via QBL Express, 63 St Line, 6 Av Local, Culver Express

 

Jamaica Center-Coney Island via Archer Av Line, QBL Local, Crosstown Local, Culver Local

 

179 St-Metropolitan Av via QBL Super Express, 63 St Line, 6 Av Local, Jamaica Local, Myrtle Av Line

 

71 Av-95 St via QBL Local, Broadway Local, 4 Av Local

 

71 Av-Euclid Av via QBL Local, 63 St Line, 2 Av Local, Fulton St Local

 

 

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[Union Tpke]

I would put the on QBL and have the use the Bypass. QBL local is , QBL express is

 

Under this plan:

Jamaica Center-WTC via Archer Av Line, QBL Express, 8 Av Local

 

179 St-Coney Island via QBL Express, 63 St Line, 6 Av Local, Culver Express

 

Jamaica Center-Coney Island via Archer Av Line, QBL Local, Crosstown Local, Culver Local

 

179 St-Metropolitan Av via QBL Super Express, 63 St Line, 6 Av Local, Jamaica Local, Myrtle Av Line

 

71 Av-95 St via QBL Local, Broadway Local, 4 Av Local

 

71 Av-Euclid Av via QBL Local, 63 St Line, 2 Av Local, Fulton St Local

 

 

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Jamaica Center can only terminate 12 TPH, which is why some (E)s go to 179th. You have no Sixth Avenue service via 53rd Street, and you have three services via 63rd Street, which won't work unless they all have restricted TPH.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The original plans for the Bypass had two intermediary stops at Northern Blvd and Woodside. I'm uncertain about the status of the Northern Blvd / Queens Plaza stop since the 63 St Line was connected to the QBL where the station would have been. On the bypass itself, there's 4 potential station locations:

 

• Sunnyside (provisional): If the Sunnyside Yards are developed and/or the LIRR / MNR junction station is ever built, Sunnyside would serve them.
• Woodside - 61 St: Self-explanatory. Could serve as a decent terminal for the if the Bypass has to be shortened due to lack of funds.
• 51st Ave (provisional): If the Triboro RX is ever built, this stop would be the transfer to it. Might be worth building even without the Triboro RX.
• Woodhaven Blvd: Relief station for Woodhaven QBL, transfer station for the Rockaway Branch.

service would stay completely on the QBL express tracks outside of late nights. service is unchanged. service runs via the Bypass and runs local east of Forest Hills.

 

The Rockaway Branch itself should connect to both the QBL local tracks and the Bypass, with the latter being easier and faster to construct.

The preferred service would be an train from Rockaway Park via Woodside. Subsequently, Howard Beach would become more popular than Jamaica for subway riders due to the easier connection and the presence of both relatively fast Brooklyn/Downtown and Queens/Midtown service. However, it's unclear where the would run into Manhattan, so riders might have to do with a rerouted or service until that issue is cleared up.

  

I still favor a rerouted or for the Rockaway Branch. I do like the suggestion to run both the and V local on QB past 71st/Continental, because it seems to me like the easiest place to make the connection between the main QBL and the bypass tracks would be on the local tracks in between 71st and 75th Avenues. That way, the can continue to serve the local stations after 71st Ave and the V can run on the bypass. I'd include stations at Woodside (of course) for the transfer and another station in Rego Park at 63rd Drive. That's a very busy area with a lot of foot and car traffic.

I would put the on QBL and have the use the Bypass. QBL local is , QBL express is

Under this plan:

E Jamaica Center-WTC via Archer Av Line, QBL Express, 8 Av Local

F 179 St-Coney Island via QBL Express, 63 St Line, 6 Av Local, Culver Express

G Jamaica Center-Coney Island via Archer Av Line, QBL Local, Crosstown Local, Culver Local

M 179 St-Metropolitan Av via QBL Super Express, 63 St Line, 6 Av Local, Jamaica Local, Myrtle Av Line

R 71 Av-95 St via QBL Local, Broadway Local, 4 Av Local

V 71 Av-Euclid Av via QBL Local, 63 St Line, 2 Av Local, Fulton St Local

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Why three locals? And why create delays at in three places (71st Ave, 75th Ave and Union Turnpike) by having the go to Jamaica Center?

[pringle5095]

This plan is being changed

 

207 St-Far Rockaway via 8 Av Express, Fulton St Express (no stop at 80/88 Sts or Rockaway Blvd), Rockaway Line.

 

207 St-Lefferts Blvd via 8 Av Local, Fulton St Local

 

same as old plan

 

same as old plan

 

same as old plan

 

aka Rockaway Park Beach 116 St-Mott Av via Rockaway Line (new station to be built on Beach 81 St at Hammel's Wye)

 

179 St-Metropolitan Av via QBL Local, 6 Av Local, Jamaica Local, Myrtle Av Line

 

Rockaway Park-95 St via Rockaway Line, Rockaway Beach Line, QBL Local, Broadway Local, 4 Av Local

 

71 Av-Euclid Av via QBL Super Express, 63rd St Line, 2 Av Local, Fulton St Local

 

(I know. I changed a lot!)

 

 

 

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[RR503]

  

I still favor a rerouted or for the Rockaway Branch. I do like the suggestion to run both the and V local on QB past 71st/Continental, because it seems to me like the easiest place to make the connection between the main QBL and the bypass tracks would be on the local tracks in between 71st and 75th Avenues. That way, the can continue to serve the local stations after 71st Ave and the V can run on the bypass. I'd include stations at Woodside (of course) for the transfer and another station in Rego Park at 63rd Drive. That's a very busy area with a lot of foot and car traffic.

Why three locals? And why create delays at in three places (71st Ave, 75th Ave and Union Turnpike) by having the go to Jamaica Center?

I like the RBB idea. It solves fumingation at 71st ave also, which is a BIG +

 

Both to you and to pringle505, I don't like via bypass, because of a lack of connections in Manhattan. You want to make the fast service useful for the greatest # of people. should use it, with the becoming QBL normal express, and all other routes staying the same. 

 

And also, what is the need for the on QBL. It makes no sense. 

[bobtehpanda]

I like the RBB idea. It solves fumingation at 71st ave also, which is a BIG +

 

Both to you and to pringle505, I don't like via bypass, because of a lack of connections in Manhattan. You want to make the fast service useful for the greatest # of people. should use it, with the becoming QBL normal express, and all other routes staying the same. 

 

And also, what is the need for the on QBL. It makes no sense. 

 

The problem with bypass -> QBL express is that east of Forest Hills you get a DeKalb or Nostrand Junction type mess. At this location, the merges out of the express tracks, the merges in, and the stays. If you keep the on the express tracks and make the bypass merge into the local tracks, you avoid all that mess.

 

You forget that going down the East Side quickly is useful in and of itself, because it's a one-seat ride that avoids the PITA transfer at 51st St. Keeping the away from the QBL will also relieve overcrowding at Jackson Heights, since now there is a reason to pick Woodside over Jackson Heights (for East Side service); if you have a 6th av service on both the QBL and the Bypass, why would riders pick the bypass?

[CenSin]

if you have a 6th av service on both the QBL and the Bypass, why would riders pick the bypass?

The often-claimed reason: passenger distribution. Woodside serves the and Broadway serves the .

[agar io]

This plan is being changed

 

207 St-Far Rockaway via 8 Av Express, Fulton St Express (no stop at 80/88 Sts or Rockaway Blvd), Rockaway Line.

 

207 St-Lefferts Blvd via 8 Av Local, Fulton St Local

 

same as old plan

 

same as old plan

 

same as old plan

 

aka Rockaway Park Beach 116 St-Mott Av via Rockaway Line (new station to be built on Beach 81 St at Hammel's Wye)

 

179 St-Metropolitan Av via QBL Local, 6 Av Local, Jamaica Local, Myrtle Av Line

 

Rockaway Park-95 St via Rockaway Line, Rockaway Beach Line, QBL Local, Broadway Local, 4 Av Local

 

71 Av-Euclid Av via QBL Super Express, 63rd St Line, 2 Av Local, Fulton St Local

 

(I know. I changed a lot!)

 

 

 

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This still has the problem of Jamaica Center not having enough capacity for the and . And the can't skip 80 St. The switches don't exist. Other than that, there is no point in having the skip just two stations in the peak direction, one of which is a major transfer point.

 

At the very least, the can be sent down the RBB with the to the Rockaways. And the should go via 53 St. Otherwise, 63 St doesn't have capacity for all of the and turquoise . It also distributes 6 Av riders better along Lex Av.

[pringle5095]

goes via 53 St in this plan

 

 

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[bobtehpanda]

The often-claimed reason: passenger distribution. Woodside serves the and Broadway serves the .

 

Then having a 6th Av service on both the bypass and QBL will gum up the works.

 

The distribution should be supported with the bypass service pattern; for the West Side, take the local. For the East Side, take the express.

[RR503]

Then having a 6th Av service on both the bypass and QBL will gum up the works.

 

The distribution should be supported with the bypass service pattern; for the West Side, take the local. For the East Side, take the express.

Yes, but the QBL 6th Ave is a local. I doubt that many -- if any -- people will choose when the is an option. It also helps by taking the load of Manhattan bound commuters off of the and onto the .

 

In response to your other post, point taken about merging.

 

But as for those who are going to 6th Ave, of course they'll choose the bypass. Why sit through a bunch of QBL local stops when you don't have to. And by definition, both proposals will relieve crowding at Jackson heights.

Edited February 4, 2017 by RR503

[asi14]

I've always been curious about the big gap that separates the Carnesarie and Queens Blvd lines-- assuming service to that area is viable, what possible services would you all think of?

[Around the Horn]

Yes, but the QBL 6th Ave is a local. I doubt that many -- if any -- people will choose when the is an option. It also helps by taking the load of Manhattan bound commuters off of the and onto the .

 

In response to your other post, point taken about merging.

 

But as for those who are going to 6th Ave, of course they'll choose the bypass. Why sit through a bunch of QBL local stops when you don't have to. And by definition, both proposals will relieve crowding at Jackson heights.

That's exactly the problem with your proposal. You're forcing riders at local stations east of Roosevelt to stay on the , which makes all these local stops you mention, or force them to make a three legged trip ( (M)/ , , ) if they want the 6 Avenue express, thus overwhelming the . Then if the overcrowding delays the , you've now messed up the too when it merges at Queensboro Plaza.

 

This exact phenomenon occurs daily in Boston on the Green Line between Park and Government Center; its the only way to go from the Red to Blue and causes delays and overcrowding on that section which then spills over to the entire line and its branches.

 

If 6th Avenue is more popular than 2nd Avenue as you suggest, then it would make sense for the express to 6th Avenue to remain on the more popular route, which is QBL proper.

[RR503]

That's exactly the problem with your proposal. You're forcing riders at local stations east of Roosevelt to stay on the , which makes all these local stops you mention, or force them to make a three legged trip ( (M)/ , , ) if they want the 6 Avenue express, thus overwhelming the . Then if the overcrowding delays the , you've now messed up the too when it merges at Queensboro Plaza.

 

This exact phenomenon occurs daily in Boston on the Green Line between Park and Government Center; its the only way to go from the Red to Blue and causes delays and overcrowding on that section which then spills over to the entire line and its branches.

 

If 6th Avenue is more popular than 2nd Avenue as you suggest, then it would make sense for the express to 6th Avenue to remain on the more popular route, which is QBL proper.

Points taken, but the question still stands: how do QBL local riders get to 2nd Ave at all? to 51st? Then you're suffering through local stops, as you say. 3 legs? Bostonian problem. / to the to the ?

 

With this, you're really inconveniencing east side riders. In my version, there are connections of sorts to everywhere. I see the circularity here. It's really a pick your poison problem. I honestly don't know anymore.

 

Someone in another thread brought up the idea of making the a QBL local. Thoughts?

[CenSin]

That's exactly the problem with your proposal. You're forcing riders at local stations east of Roosevelt to stay on the , which makes all these local stops you mention, or force them to make a three legged trip ( (M)/ , , ) if they want the 6 Avenue express, thus overwhelming the .

What are you talking about? If they are coming from the local stations east of Jackson Heights–Roosevelt Avenue, then they simply transfer to the and then the . You really think people would ascend the stairs to the , make 2 local stops, and then descend the stairs for the rather than riding it out on the local?

 

6 Avenue for the Queens Boulevard riders:

• Queens Boulevard local/6 Avenue local (stay on train)
• Queens Boulevard local/Broadway local → Queens superexpress/6 Avenue local @ 34 Street–Herald Square
• Queens Boulevard local/Broadway local → Queens Boulevard local/6 Avenue local @ any Queens Boulevard stop or 34 Street–Herald Square
• Queens Boulevard express/2 Avenue local → Queens superexpress/6 Avenue local @ 21 Street–Queensbridge or Roosevelt Island

2 Avenue for the Queens Boulevard riders:

• Queens Boulevard local/6 Avenue local → 2 Avenue local @ 53 Street/Lexington Avenue
• Queens Boulevard local/Broadway local → Queens Boulevard express/2 Avenue local @ Jackson Heights–Roosevelt Avenue
• Queens Boulevard local/Broadway local → 2 Avenue local/Broadway express @ 57 Street–7 Avenue
• Queens Boulevard express/2 Avenue local → 2 Avenue local @ 55 Street
• Queens Boulevard express/2 Avenue local (stay on train)

[bobtehpanda]

As a smaller bite that would be more doable than extending all the way to Bayside or QCC, I propose a two-stop extension of the ; to 149 St and Broadway LIRR via Roosevelt Av & Northern Blvd. Upon completion, the adopts a similar pattern to the ; during peak hours local trains terminate at Main St, while express trains continue to Broadway LIRR.

[Caelestor]

The QBL has interesting travel patterns. For most subway lines, ridership is highest in the inner core stations, but the QBL is more like commuter rail, where the eastern terminals are the most popular due to feeder buses. Also, the numbers state explicitly that riders want the faster and more direct express stretch between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights. Assuming the Bypass exists and the Rockaway Branch hasn't been built, service should then be allocated as follows:

 

Riders east of Forest Hills get direct express trains to all 3 IND trunk lines. The runs on the local tracks only and the stays entirely on the express tracks. The runs express during peak hours to avoid the switch during the rush and local at all other times. The logic for running the via the bypass is to further redirect ridership away from the QBL: this time from Jackson Heights, which is the current chokepoint of the line. It used to be Lexington Ave back when the ran via 53 St.

• 2 Ave: via QBL, 63 St
• 6 Ave: via Bypass, via 63 St
• 8 Ave: via QBL, 53 St

Riders between Jackson Heights and Forest Hills who transfer at the latter get direct West Side and East Side expresses, relieving Lexington Ave - 53 St and the . For UES, take the at 55 St instead of the at 63 St.

• 2 Ave: via 63 St
• 6 Ave: Transfer to the at Roosevelt Island or the at 5 Ave
• 8 Ave: via 53 St 

Local riders between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights don't get much direct service, but they're the smallest segment anyways.

• 2 Ave: Transfer to at Lexington Ave
• 6 Ave: via 53 St
• 8 Ave: Transfer to at Queens Plaza

Riders on the can transfer to the at Jackson Heights or the at Woodside. Fewer riders would overcrowd Jackson Heights, which already doubles as a transfer station between the QBL local and express services today. Woodside would be built with a more convenient transfer, and more LIRR riders would get off here instead of the crowded Manhattan terminals.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Caelestor

[Mtatransit]

The QBL has interesting travel patterns. For most subway lines, ridership is highest in the inner core stations, but the QBL is more like commuter rail, where the eastern terminals are the most popular due to feeder buses. Also, the numbers state explicitly that riders want the faster and more direct express stretch between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights. Assuming the Bypass exists and the Rockaway Branch hasn't been built, service should then be allocated as follows:

 

Riders east of Forest Hills get direct express trains to all 3 IND trunk lines. The runs on the local tracks only and the stays entirely on the express tracks. The runs express during peak hours to avoid the switch during the rush and local at all other times. The logic for running the via the bypass is to further redirect ridership away from the QBL: this time from Jackson Heights, which is the current chokepoint of the line. It used to be Lexington Ave back when the ran via 53 St.

• 2 Ave: via QBL, 63 St
• 6 Ave: via Bypass, via 63 St
• 8 Ave: via QBL, 53 St

Riders between Jackson Heights and Forest Hills who transfer at the latter get direct West Side and East Side expresses, relieving Lexington Ave - 53 St and the . For UES, take the at 55 St instead of the at 63 St.

• 2 Ave: via 63 St
• 6 Ave: Transfer to the at Roosevelt Island or the at 5 Ave
• 8 Ave: via 53 St 

Local riders between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights don't get much direct service, but they're the smallest segment anyways.

• 2 Ave: Transfer to at Lexington Ave
• 6 Ave: via 53 St
• 8 Ave: Transfer to at Queens Plaza

Riders on the can transfer to the at Jackson Heights or the at Woodside. Fewer riders would overcrowd Jackson Heights, which already doubles as a transfer station between the QBL local and express services today. Woodside would be built with a more convenient transfer, and more LIRR riders would get off here instead of the crowded Manhattan terminals.

QB Line has both high inner local station AND high terminal ridership. I'm afraid that by shifting the main express transfer point from 74 St(Local) to Woodside(Express Station) the Express would be double as crowded

[Caelestor]

QB Line has both high inner local station AND high terminal ridership. I'm afraid that by shifting the main express transfer point from 74 St(Local) to Woodside(Express Station) the Express would be double as crowded

 

Here are the local stations and their ridership rankings.

• 36 St: 322
• Steinway St: 99
• 46 St: 176
• Northern Blvd: 218
• 65 St: 342
• Jackson Heights (express): 14
• Elmhurst Ave: 111
• Grand Ave - Newtown: 73
• Woodhaven Blvd: 60
• 63 Dr - Rego Park: 88
• 67 Ave: 183

The local stations east of Jackson Heights have much higher ridership than those west. I've stated before that the QBL should have been built with a 5th peak-direction express track between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights for local trains to prevent the mass transfers between the local and express services, but the bypass is also a nice way to add capacity on the QBL and SAS.

 

As for the , the passenger peak is right before Queensboro Plaza, so I doubt current crowding levels worsen much.

[Lawrence St]

The often-claimed reason: passenger distribution. Woodside serves the and Broadway serves the .

Which is why 74 St Broadway needs to be rebuilt in a layout similar to Woodside. Two Island platforms. It removes that three legged transfer.

 

OR, you can add 74th St stop to express trains by switching over to the local then back to the express, but then that causes congestion.

[Around the Horn]

Which is why 74 St Broadway needs to be rebuilt in a layout similar to Woodside. Two Island platforms. It removes that three legged transfer.

 

OR, you can add 74th St stop to express trains by switching over to the local then back to the express, but then that causes congestion.

 

No. It was specifically designed that way to prevent the express from overcrowding. By forcing people to use the local to reach Broadway, you distribute passenger loads evenly between the  and  . It's a crowd control measure.

[Mtatransit]

 

As for the , the passenger peak is right before Queensboro Plaza, so I doubt current crowding levels worsen much.

Many on the from QBP east transfer at 74 St, or QBP for Midtown above 42 St. By shifting the fastest way to Manhattan, the from 74 St to 61 St, people in Flushing, Junction will no longer take the loca to 74 St .  ridership will decrease, while the will increase due to new transfer at 61 St, and the reduced transfer at 74 St

Edited February 4, 2017 by Mtatransit

[RR503]

On a slightly different thread, has the MTA ever considered extending either the or to 179th street? Then the could run on the express tracks beyond Forest Hills, and local trains wouldn't get so backed up because of fumingation.

[Caelestor]

No. It was specifically designed that way to prevent the express from overcrowding. By forcing people to use the local to reach Broadway, you distribute passenger loads evenly between the  and  . It's a crowd control measure.

 

Roosevelt Ave is like 59 St on the 7 Ave Line. The predates the QBL by 10-15 years, and so only 2 equally-spaced express stops were built on the line between Queensboro Plaza and Flushing: Woodside and Junction Blvd. (Willets Point was added in the 1939 reconstruction for the World's Fair.)

 

In general, the IRT express stops shouldn't need to accommodate the IND transfers since they were the city's original subway lines and still are the most heavily ridden by most metrics. The IND lines for the most part serve as relief, with some exceptions.

 

Many on the from QBP east transfer at 74 St, or QBP for Midtown above 42 St. By shifting the fastest way to Manhattan, the from 74 St to 61 St, people in Flushing, Junction will no longer take the loca to 74 St .  ridership will decrease, while the will increase due to new transfer at 61 St, and the reduced transfer at 74 St

 

Do I think crowding on the will get worse between Junction Blvd and Woodside? Yes, because a new transfer is built. This happens whether or not the or runs via the Bypass. What I'm most concerned is fixing the QBL, because on the Flushing Line there is a relatively even distribution between the and . This is not the case at QBL, which has a ton of cross-platform transfers already that make the express trains 2 to 3x more crowded than the local trains, according to the MTA's own numbers.

 

I originally had the running via the Bypass, but after computing the math, the should be running via the Bypass to achieve as much relief as possible. If the is already SRO at Forest Hills, what good does it do to have it stop at a top 15 ridership station where riders will always attempt to crowd into packed express trains? If we expect the to have higher ridership than the , then running the on the QBL will give some spare capacity for the local riders between Forest Hills and Jackson Heights. 

 

 

On a slightly different thread, has the MTA ever considered extending either the or to 179th street? Then the could run on the express tracks beyond Forest Hills, and local trains wouldn't get so backed up because of fumingation.

 

The original post-Archer Ave plans had the staying express to Jamaica Center and 179 St, the to Forest Hills, and the to 179 St. The community demanded the current plan, because QBL riders will always take the express train over the local if given the option to do so.

[bobtehpanda]

On a slightly different thread, has the MTA ever considered extending either the or to 179th street? Then the could run on the express tracks beyond Forest Hills, and local trains wouldn't get so backed up because of fumingation.

 

It was the service pattern for the short while after the Archer Avenue line opened, and Hillside riders were livid. No one is interested in bringing it back.