Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[bobtehpanda]

Those maps are not trustworthy, and in this discussion aren't even that useful anyways since they don't provide any clear indication of scale or surrounding street area.

 

According to the station's neighborhood map view, the 2 Av station crosses 2 Av, so having a tunnel curving under Houston St would be extremely difficult, and you wouldn't be able to have the train stop at 2 Av.

[Javier]

Its a shame there arent any junctions after 57 Street / 7th Ave so that the dosent have to keep wrong railing into the Downtown Platform.

[CenSin]

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_lower_manhattan.png Here's a downtown track map with the Chrystie Street Connection

I've been on that site since 2008 and memorized all the track maps already. They're notoriously inaccurate and not useable for anything other than planning service patterns and reroutes. For engineering, you need the physical locations of the tunnels and tracks as well as other metrics.

[bobtehpanda]

I've been on that site since 2008 and memorized all the track maps already. They're notoriously inaccurate and not useable for anything other than planning service patterns and reroutes. For engineering, you need the physical locations of the tunnels and tracks as well as other metrics.

 

Which of course, we are never going to get, because that would be a major security risk.

[Armandito]

Which of course, we are never going to get, because that would be a major security risk.

What kind of major security risk? Edited December 25, 2014 by lara8710

[Armandito]

The will serve all of Second Avenue, whereas the would complement it north of 63 St. If another service were to complement the south of 63 St, how would it be routed?

[bobtehpanda]

What kind of major security risk?

 

Publishing well-detailed maps of the subway system down to heights and clearances would be kind of like publishing a very detailed, accurate map of JFK. It's a terrorism security risk, and the subway has been targeted by terrorists before, and other subways have been successfully attacked as well. The public does not need that sort of information.

 

The will serve all of Second Avenue, whereas the would complement it north of 63 St. If another service were to complement the south of 63 St, how would it be routed?

 

If Phase III is ever built, a turnoff exists from 63rd St so that trains from the east can go south.

[Armandito]

Publishing well-detailed maps of the subway system down to heights and clearances would be kind of like publishing a very detailed, accurate map of JFK. It's a terrorism security risk, and the subway has been targeted by terrorists before, and other subways have been successfully attacked as well. The public does not need that sort of information.

 

 

If Phase III is ever built, a turnoff exists from 63rd St so that trains from the east can go south.

However, the Queens Boulevard line is already at capacity for both local and express trains, so a new service from Second Avenue to Queens along the 63rd Street line is out of the question.

[Fresh Pond]

Publishing well-detailed maps of the subway system down to heights and clearances would be kind of like publishing a very detailed, accurate map of JFK. It's a terrorism security risk, and the subway has been targeted by terrorists before, and other subways have been successfully attacked as well. The public does not need that sort of information.

There's a book that comes out every year called "Tracks of the NYC Subway" that gives you track maps, homeball numbers and locations, and yard maps. Its almost completely accurate and whatnot.

 

I have the Hurricane Sandy edition, and other than showing the closed sections its more or less the same

[Union Tpke]

The will serve all of Second Avenue, whereas the would complement it north of 63 St. If another service were to complement the south of 63 St, how would it be routed?

via Queens Blvd Express, as the M train assuming that the Queens Bypass is built.

 

In my Second Avenue plan, nassau/Jamaica services would be re-made.

Trains from Nassau St would merge into Second Avenue at Bowery.

Trains from the Myrtle/Jamaica Els would merge before Bowery onto Second Avenue.

This would require a lot of reworking, but it would make the Jamaica El a decent alternative to the E.

 

However, the Queens Boulevard line is already at capacity for both local and express trains, so a new service from Second Avenue to Queens along the 63rd Street line is out of the question.

not the local tracks assuming you allow them to terminate at 179th.

[Armandito]

via Queens Blvd Express, as the M train assuming that the Queens Bypass is built.

 

In my Second Avenue plan, nassau/Jamaica services would be re-made.

Trains from Nassau St would merge into Second Avenue at Bowery.

Trains from the Myrtle/Jamaica Els would merge before Bowery onto Second Avenue.

This would require a lot of reworking, but it would make the Jamaica El a decent alternative to the E.

 

 

not the local tracks assuming you allow them to terminate at 179th.

When you mentioned the Queens Bypass, did you mean a super-express line running along the LIRR parallel to the existing corridor? Also, is it possible to run local trains to 179th Street during the day while sharing space with the and trains? Edited December 25, 2014 by lara8710

[Javier]

To make the 42 Street Shuttle more liable... extend it to 42 Street Port Authority.

 

As for my other plans..

Install a flying Junction between Grand Central and Union Square to make less delays on the Lex line.

Recreate the (8) train that runs between 161 Street Yankee Staidum on the to 168 Street on the using its old Polo Ground tunnel then from there start digging towards 161 Street.

[Armandito]

Would the Second Avenue Subway still be able to accommodate express tracks?

[bobtehpanda]

There's a book that comes out every year called "Tracks of the NYC Subway" that gives you track maps, homeball numbers and locations, and yard maps. Its almost completely accurate and whatnot.

 

I have the Hurricane Sandy edition, and other than showing the closed sections its more or less the same

 

That's completely different from knowing where tunnels are physically located in the ground, though, in the way that a engineering firm would get when working with the subway.

[CenSin]

That's completely different from knowing where tunnels are physically located in the ground, though, in the way that a engineering firm would get when working with the subway.

But if it's as accurate as he says it is, one could theoretically start with several known locations and use those maps to calculate the locations of everything else. They might not get the tunnel depths correct, but a fairly useable two-dimensional map.

[Armandito]

I suggest a new subway line along Steinway Street could help relieve overcrowding on the Astoria line. Here's my route plan (assuming Phases III and IV of the SAS is finished):

 

(Plan A)

Queens:

20 Avenue/Steinway Street

Ditmars Boulevard/Steinway Street

25 Avenue/Steinway Street

30 Avenue/Steinway Street

Steinway Street/Broadway

36 Street/Northern Boulevard

21 Street-Queensbridge/41 Avenue

 

Manhattan:

Roosevelt Island

55 Street/2 Avenue

42 Street/2 Avenue

34 Street/2 Avenue

23 Street/2 Avenue

14 Street/2 Avenue

Houston Street/2 Avenue

Grand Street/Chrystie Street

 

Brooklyn (via Manhattan Bridge south tracks):

All stops to/from Brighton Beach

 

(Plan B)

Same as Plan A, except the route will use the 4 Av/West End Lines, making all stops between DeKalb Avenue and Bay Parkway (the last stop) and weekend trains will terminate at 9 Avenue.

 

(X) will be the designation for this new service, which will run its full route on weekdays, to/from Houston Street (Plan A) or 9 Avenue (Plan B) on weekends, and as a shuttle to/from Steinway Street/Broadway during late nights. Also, trains will run local during late nights, and trains will run via the Montague Street Tunnel at all times, stopping at DeKalb Avenue in both directions. (Having the run through the tunnel at all times reduces delays caused by trains switching at Prince Street.) Layup tracks at Steinway Street and Houston Street will be constructed for late night shuttle trains and weekend trains, respectively.

Edited December 25, 2014 by lara8710

[Wallyhorse]

To make the 42 Street Shuttle more liable... extend it to 42 Street Port Authority.

 

As for my other plans..

Install a flying Junction between Grand Central and Union Square to make less delays on the Lex line.

Recreate the (8) train that runs between 161 Street Yankee Staidum on the to 168 Street on the using its old Polo Ground tunnel then from there start digging towards 161 Street.

Can't extend the TS-GC shuttle.  That is part of the original subway that was built in 1904 with Grand Central an express station and Times Square a local station. 

 

The original builders of the first subway had no idea what Times Square would become as that was originally a simple, local station, otherwise they would likely have made Times Square, 50th Street and Columbus Circle all express stations. 

 

Don't think the others are doable very easily.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Wallyhorse

[Union Tpke]

When you mentioned the Queens Bypass, did you mean a super-express line running along the LIRR parallel to the existing corridor? Also, is it possible to run local trains to 179th Street during the day while sharing space with the and trains?

There is room for two tracks from Woodside to the Rockaways ROW.

Here is what I would do.

Convert the LIRR Pt Wash line from Woodside to Pt Wash to nyc subway.

Build a subway from the LIRR line at Bayside via Northern to Great Neck meeting back up with the ROW.

Severe from LIRR.

Queens Bypass 

Line to Rockaways

Line via Hillside

Flushing Line extended to College Point.

Connection from Corona Yard to LIRR ROW.

Convert Flushing Line to B DIvision specs.

Build new 4 track tunnel under 42 St.

Connection to Queens Bypass

Connection to LIE route

42 St Flushing Line extended via 11 Av

Branch up Amsterdam Av

Connection to 14 St Line

Branch via new LMT via Central Brooklyn

Via Governors Island, Red Hook, 20 St, Flatbush Av to Floyd Bennett Field 

Branch up Flatlands Avenue to Fountain Avenue

Extend Canarsie Line up Flatlands Av and Kings Highway to E 16 St

[Javier]

Wait, was the back in the 1900's not a shuttle back then? Where did it stop?

[Lance]

The 42nd Street shuttle was once part of the original IRT subway, which ran from 145 St/Broadway to Times Square then to Grand Central (both shuttle platforms) to the City Hall loop station. The current H pattern with the Lexington Ave and 7th Ave lines opened for service starting in 1918 and the section of the line along 42nd Street was converted into today's shuttle.

[bobtehpanda]

But if it's as accurate as he says it is, one could theoretically start with several known locations and use those maps to calculate the locations of everything else. They might not get the tunnel depths correct, but a fairly useable two-dimensional map.

 

That's fine. The real issue is the three-dimensional map; the MTA had to install a bunch of iron plating over the East River tunnels after that terrorism scare where they were going to try and blow up the PATH tubes to flood WTC.

[Wallyhorse]

Wait, was the back in the 1900's not a shuttle back then? Where did it stop?

Right.

 

What is now the TC-GS originally was part of the original subway, though it only ran that way from 1904-'18. when the TS-GC portion was severed from the rest of the line for the most part.  As it was done originally, the first subway ran like it did from City Hall through 33rd Street, then headed west to what is now the Grand Central , as is illustrated in this film from 1905:

 

After Grand Central, the train continued west to Broadway, with locals only stopping at the original Times Square Station (now that half of the ), then continuing up what is the to 50th, Columbus Circle and so forth.  Express stations originally were Brooklyn Bridge, 14th Street, Grand Central, 72nd-Broadway and 96th Street before express trains diverted to what is today's and lines once those were built.  The current South Ferry station in fact was originally a Lexington Avenue line stop.

 

When the connections that extended the Broadway portion to lower Manhattan and the east side portion (that runs along Lafayette Street, 4th Avenue and Park Avenue/Park Avenue South uptown via Lexington Avenue) were opened in 1918, that's when the current TS-GC shuttle began running.  What today is the walkway between the Lexington line and TS-GC shuttle used to be part of the tunnel used on the original subway.  There is no Track 2 at either TS or GC on the shuttle because that because the platform for Track 3 at TS and part of the platform for Tracks 1 & 3 at GC.  There also are still connections to the Lexington Line from Track 1 and the Broadway-7th Avenue line from Track 4 in fact.

[Javier]

So track 2 was severed in order to Accommodate the platform at GC and TS. I get it.

 

Also to confirm, what your saying is that in GC, tracks 3 and 4 originally used the tunnel, which is now the passageway between Lex and the shuttle, to reach the Lex Ave Local or Express Tracks? And why is Times Square on the platform so curvy?

[Wallyhorse]

All four tracks originally went to what are now the GC-TS Shuttle stations, with Grand Central an express station and Times Square a local station (again, because Times Square was not yet what it would become a few years later).  When the "H" setup we know today was put in place in 1918, Track 2 became part of the Grand Central platform between Tracks 1 & 3 and the Track 3 platform at Times Square, necessitated by the fact TS was originally a local station.  You can access the downtown track from Track 1 on the CG-TS shuttle and the uptown track from Track 4 of the TS-GC shuttle (when a bridge is opened to allow that in the latter case).

[Javier]

Thanks for the info! Now I understand the shuttle. But why didnt they just build a overpass onto track 4 from track 2 at TS instead of building a platform over the tracks?