Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Looking at the track map for that just makes me sad; it would make far more sense to have the Muni level have four tracks; trains on the outer tracks could turn at a loop that drops a level down between the BART tracks and tracks to the eastern portal, while trains on the inner tracks would continue on to the T third St. Alternately, that loop could also have connections to a few storage tracks under Bierman Park if you wanted to be able to lay trains up there.

Embarcadero precedes the Muni extension to 4th and King. The problem was that the extension did not separate new through tracks from the existing terminating tracks.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

18 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Embarcadero precedes the Muni extension to 4th and King. The problem was that the extension did not separate new through tracks from the existing terminating tracks.

 

19 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Looking at the track map for that just makes me sad; it would make far more sense to have the Muni level have four tracks; trains on the outer tracks could turn at a loop that drops a level down between the BART tracks and tracks to the eastern portal, while trains on the inner tracks would continue on to the T third St. Alternately, that loop could also have connections to a few storage tracks under Bierman Park if you wanted to be able to lay trains up there.

Agreed here. Maybe one alternative could have been to rebuild the upper level at Embarcadero with two outer tracks for the N/T extension to 4th and King, while J, L and M still terminated on the original (middle) tracks. The current setup is definitely a bad one. I remember getting delayed entering Embarcadero due to trains reversing there when I was there in 2011.

[shiznit1987]

I wasn't sure how this fits within the context of this board, but since I wanted to talk ideas I'll place it here: 

http://www.ridersny.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/doomsday-on-the-mta-compressed.pdf

Riders Alliance released a "Doomsday Map" of the subway w/o another federal bailout. While a sad and morbid thought amongst us fans of the subway, it did get me thinking: 

If I was MTA Chairman, what would I cut? 

Personally, this map is bogus. Here's my thoughts:

1) Right off the bat, anything on the IRT (except the  of course) would be totally untouchable. The only thing maybe would be getting rid of the Dyre Ave line and making the  a rush hour/midday supplement to the . 

2) The  having the QB Express all to itself is intriguing. I'd close down the  entirely and just have the  run to Lefferts/Far Rock, with the  being the Fulton Local to Euclid. Both would run down 53rd St. The CPW, Concourse, Culver, 63rd Street, and Inwood-207th St lines would all be shut down.

3) Broadway would have just the , the  runs from Forest Hills to Bay Ridge via QB Local, Broadway Local, Lower Manhattan, 4th Ave Local and the  runs Astoria, 59th St, Broadway express/Bridge, Brighton Line (rush hour express  offered). Both the Sea Beach and SAS are abandoned. 

4) The , with no where to go above Midtown, would turn around at Bryant Park-42nd St after coming from Coney Island via West End (No changes). 

5) The  are all goners. 

There, that's your doomsday subway....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bay Ridge Express]

42 minutes ago, shiznit1987 said:

http://www.ridersny.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/doomsday-on-the-mta-compressed.pdf

Riders Alliance released a "Doomsday Map" of the subway w/o another federal bailout. While a sad and morbid thought amongst us fans of the subway, it did get me thinking: 

This looks WAYYY too exaggerated. I personally thought that, at most, if they had to cut services, the whole thing would end up looking like the overnight map. This, however, straight up just gets rid of key trunk lines. I would say if you have to get rid of lines (meaning no service passing by whatsoever), at least just get rid of those that are adjacent together (like the  and  in Manhattan e.g. keep the  and run the  Jamaica-Canal)

42 minutes ago, shiznit1987 said:

Right off the bat, anything on the IRT (except the  of course) would be totally untouchable

Definitely, people literally cannot survive without their .

And getting rid of the ? Giant no.

42 minutes ago, shiznit1987 said:

The , with no where to go above Midtown, would turn around at Bryant Park-42nd St after coming from Coney Island via West End (No changes)

Yea, you need the  or  in Brooklyn otherwise that whole area is just a literal transit desert.

Ngl, I think the  would rather raise the fare to $9 than implement this.

I'd also be interested in seeing how Riders Alliance thinks they could cut the buses...

Edited July 9, 2020 by Bay Ridge Express

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, shiznit1987 said:

I wasn't sure how this fits within the context of this board, but since I wanted to talk ideas I'll place it here: 

http://www.ridersny.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/doomsday-on-the-mta-compressed.pdf

Riders Alliance released a "Doomsday Map" of the subway w/o another federal bailout. While a sad and morbid thought amongst us fans of the subway, it did get me thinking: 

If I was MTA Chairman, what would I cut? 

Personally, this map is bogus. 

This is really overkill. Here’s my version of a Doomsday map:

 - Untouched. 

I’d keep the  in place of the  mainly cause White Plains is more popular than Dyre and you can’t terminate trains at Franklin unless you deadhead them to Livonia or something. 

 - No Rockaway Service (use Q52/53) All service goes to Lefferts. Trains will run Local to Compensate the loss of  Service. 

 - 145th Street-Coney Island via West End. (Days only) dead head runs to Concourse take place. For service to Concourse take the  

 runs Local in Queens alongside a truncated  

 are untouched. 

 - Local Service in Manhattan. 

 - Truncated to Whitehall. 

 and all  Shuttles are eliminated. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by LaGuardia Link N Tra

[Mtatransit]

1 hour ago, shiznit1987 said:

I wasn't sure how this fits within the context of this board, but since I wanted to talk ideas I'll place it here: 

http://www.ridersny.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/doomsday-on-the-mta-compressed.pdf

Riders Alliance released a "Doomsday Map" of the subway w/o another federal bailout. While a sad and morbid thought amongst us fans of the subway, it did get me thinking: 

If I was MTA Chairman, what would I cut? 

Personally, this map is bogus. Here's my thoughts:

1) Right off the bat, anything on the IRT (except the  of course) would be totally untouchable. The only thing maybe would be getting rid of the Dyre Ave line and making the  a rush hour/midday supplement to the . 

2) The  having the QB Express all to itself is intriguing. I'd close down the  entirely and just have the  run to Lefferts/Far Rock, with the  being the Fulton Local to Euclid. Both would run down 53rd St. The CPW, Concourse, Culver, 63rd Street, and Inwood-207th St lines would all be shut down.

3) Broadway would have just the , the  runs from Forest Hills to Bay Ridge via QB Local, Broadway Local, Lower Manhattan, 4th Ave Local and the  runs Astoria, 59th St, Broadway express/Bridge, Brighton Line (rush hour express  offered). Both the Sea Beach and SAS are abandoned. 

4) The , with no where to go above Midtown, would turn around at Bryant Park-42nd St after coming from Coney Island via West End (No changes). 

5) The  are all goners. 

There, that's your doomsday subway....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its mostly just for the visuals. Its designed to show how severe this upcoming budget shortfall will be. Remember in 2010, those custs only saved roughly 400-500 million.

I think subways will come out fine in the end, with further frequency reductions. Service was running during the weekend on most route every 6-8 minutes. That was cut to every 10 minutes in 2010. it probably go to every 15 min, if things really go south. Some express will probably go local and some locals will be discontinued outside of peak periods.

Buses however will be slaughtered. Express bus will probably be cut significantly. Probably included is major frequency and span reductions.

[danig1220]

11 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Its mostly just for the visuals. Its designed to show how severe this upcoming budget shortfall will be. Remember in 2010, those custs only saved roughly 400-500 million.

I think subways will come out fine in the end, with further frequency reductions. Service was running during the weekend on most route every 6-8 minutes. That was cut to every 10 minutes in 2010. it probably go to every 15 min, if things really go south. Some express will probably go local and some locals will be discontinued outside of peak periods.

Buses however will be slaughtered. Express bus will probably be cut significantly. Probably included is major frequency and span reductions.

I enjoy your optimism. You calmed me down.

[Mtatransit]

26 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This is really overkill. Here’s my version of a Doomsday map:

 - Untouched. 

I’d keep the  in place of the  mainly cause White Plains is more popular than Dyre and you can’t terminate trains at Franklin unless you deadhead them to Livonia or something. 

 - No Rockaway Service (use Q52/53) All service goes to Lefferts. Trains will run Local to Compensate the loss of  Service. 

 - 145th Street-Coney Island via West End. (Days only) dead head runs to Concourse take place. For service to Concourse take the  

 runs Local in Queens alongside a truncated  

 are untouched. 

 - Local Service in Manhattan. 

 - Truncated to Whitehall. 

 and all  Shuttles are eliminated. 

If I were to cut service on the subway it would probably be (these are not ideal cuts at all)

 Service will be cut on weekend  to once every 15 minutes. Rush hour service will be run at once every 5 minutes

 Service will be rerouted and extended to New Lots Avenue. On Weekend service trains will run local along 7th Avenue. Service will operate every 15 minutes during weekends and every 8 minutes during rush hours

 Service will operate rush hours only between Utica Ave and 148th St every 8 minutes

 Service will be rerouted into Flatbush Avenue to replace  . 

 Service will no longer operate south of East 180th St. Service will operate every 15 minutes all time except nights and weekend where it would operate every 30 minutes

 Service during rush hours extended to Bowling Green.  and  will be combined and operate at a lower frequency. Parkchester short turns will be maintained. Some trains will also terminate there on weekends as well.

 Service combined with  at a slighly reduced frequency.  Some trains to/from Manhattan will terminate/orginate at 74th St-Broadway

 Rockaway Park put ins eliminated. Outside of rush hours, train will make all local stops.to Lefferts Blvd every 16 minutes. Service to Far Rockaway eliminated on weekends. Transfer to Q52/53

  Service is eliminated

 - Service will be eliminated outside of rush hours

 Service will operate local in the Bronx. Some northbound service will now short turn at 145th St. On weekends trains will run every 16 minutes and run local in Brooklyn

 Service will operate local in Queens and rerouted to Jamaica-179th Street. 

 Service will be rerouted to Jamaica Center. Half of all weekend service will terminate at Church Ave

 Service will terminate at Smith-9 St. Service will operate every 20 minutes all times. Short turns will operate between Bed-Nos to Court Sq every 20 minutes

J/Z- Skip Stop eliminated. Service runs every 10 minutes rush hours and 20 minutes outside of rush hours

 Half of the service will terminate at Myrtle-Wyckoff and/or Broadway Junction

 Service will end at Myrtle Ave all time. Service will be operated every 20 minutes

 Service will run local in Manhattan and Brooklyn. On weekend trains will operate every 16 minutes

 Service will run local in Manhattan on weekends. On weekends trains will operate every 16 minutes

 Service will terminate at 36th St

 Service will be eliminated

 Times Square Shuttle discontinued. Rockaway/Franklin Shuttle will run with one train. Weekend service on the Fraklin Shuttle will be discontinued

 Haha Service eliminated between 125th St and Hanover Square

 

There would also be adjustments to service guidelines that would permit service frequencies greater than every 20 minutes

 

Overall, lots of service reductions. There will be severe overcrowding in some segments. These cuts are mostly not enough as well but its all I can think of without compromising the entire subway system

Some form of OPTO may also need to be implemented

[mrsman]

An interesting topic.  Here is my ultimate doomsday scenario:

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of 14th Street.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of Times Square.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Local service in Brooklyn terminating at Flatbush Ave.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Service from both White Plains and Dyre Ave maintained.  Local service in Brooklyn terminating at New Lots.

 Reduced service frequencies.   eliminated.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  eliminated.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Runs local in Brooklyn.  Service to Far Rockaway.  Lefferts and Rockaway Park served by buses.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Concourse local run at all times, CPW local, 8th Ave local.  South of Jay Street,  will service the Culver line.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Eliminated.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of Chambers.  No skip stop service.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Half of rush hour trains will short turn at Myrtle/Wyckoff.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service to Midtown, terminates at Chambers.  

 Reduced service frequencies. From 179th, QBL express service, 63rd street tunnel, Broadway express to West End line. 

 Reduced service frequencies.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  From Forest Hills, QBL local service, 60th street tunnel, Broadway local to Sea Beach line. Service to Bay Ridge via bus.

 All shuttles eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Astoria - Broadway local service terminating at Whitehall.

 Eliminated.

To further account for budget decreases, certain stations on each remaining line will be shut entirely, and others will be shut during off-peak hours.  Walk to nearest open station.

 

[CenSin]

11 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

I wasn't sure how this fits within the context of this board, but since I wanted to talk ideas I'll place it here: 

http://www.ridersny.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/doomsday-on-the-mta-compressed.pdf

11 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

Personally, this map is bogus.

It’s bogus because they only hit the delete button on some colored lines while leaving a lot of other things on the map. The and are running, but the —one of the busiest lines—isn’t! The duplicates the . The duplicates the . The Rockaways—the lowest ridership area—is still being served.

But other than that a few improvements here and there would make the scenario more believable. The , for example, might serve both Hillside and Archer Avenues (forked in Queens). The might return to Grand Concourse. The might be extended to cover the loss of service in Brooklyn.

[danig1220]

4 hours ago, CenSin said:

It’s bogus because they only hit the delete button on some colored lines while leaving a lot of other things on the map. The and are running, but the —one of the busiest lines—isn’t! The duplicates the . The duplicates the . The Rockaways—the lowest ridership area—is still being served.

But other than that a few improvements here and there would make the scenario more believable. The , for example, might serve both Hillside and Archer Avenues (forked in Queens). The might return to Grand Concourse. The might be extended to cover the loss of service in Brooklyn.

What would we do to the Rockaways?

 

Do we demolish it? Or do we leave it until the MTA recieves more funding?

 

[danig1220]

4 hours ago, mrsman said:

An interesting topic.  Here is my ultimate doomsday scenario:

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of 14th Street.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of Times Square.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Local service in Brooklyn terminating at Flatbush Ave.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Service from both White Plains and Dyre Ave maintained.  Local service in Brooklyn terminating at New Lots.

 Reduced service frequencies.   eliminated.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  eliminated.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Runs local in Brooklyn.  Service to Far Rockaway.  Lefferts and Rockaway Park served by buses.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Concourse local run at all times, CPW local, 8th Ave local.  South of Jay Street,  will service the Culver line.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Eliminated.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of Chambers.  No skip stop service.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Half of rush hour trains will short turn at Myrtle/Wyckoff.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service to Midtown, terminates at Chambers.  

 Reduced service frequencies. From 179th, QBL express service, 63rd street tunnel, Broadway express to West End line. 

 Reduced service frequencies.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  From Forest Hills, QBL local service, 60th street tunnel, Broadway local to Sea Beach line. Service to Bay Ridge via bus.

 All shuttles eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Astoria - Broadway local service terminating at Whitehall.

 Eliminated.

To further account for budget decreases, certain stations on each remaining line will be shut entirely, and others will be shut during off-peak hours.  Walk to nearest open station.

 

Keep the  cut it back to 34th Street, and allow to  to go via West End and Sea Beach or the  to go via Bay Ridge and Sea Beach. Eliminate the   (7X). reroute the  to go via Crosstown. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

11 hours ago, mrsman said:

An interesting topic.  Here is my ultimate doomsday scenario:

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of 14th Street.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of Times Square.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Local service in Brooklyn terminating at Flatbush Ave.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Service from both White Plains and Dyre Ave maintained.  Local service in Brooklyn terminating at New Lots.

 Reduced service frequencies.   eliminated.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  eliminated.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Runs local in Brooklyn.  Service to Far Rockaway.  Lefferts and Rockaway Park served by buses.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Concourse local run at all times, CPW local, 8th Ave local.  South of Jay Street,  will service the Culver line.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Eliminated.

 Eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service south of Chambers.  No skip stop service.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Half of rush hour trains will short turn at Myrtle/Wyckoff.

 Reduced service frequencies.  No service to Midtown, terminates at Chambers.  

 Reduced service frequencies. From 179th, QBL express service, 63rd street tunnel, Broadway express to West End line. 

 Reduced service frequencies.  Otherwise unchanged.

 Reduced service frequencies.  From Forest Hills, QBL local service, 60th street tunnel, Broadway local to Sea Beach line. Service to Bay Ridge via bus.

 All shuttles eliminated.

 Reduced service frequencies.  Astoria - Broadway local service terminating at Whitehall.

 Eliminated.

To further account for budget decreases, certain stations on each remaining line will be shut entirely, and others will be shut during off-peak hours.  Walk to nearest open station.

 

Overall, it’s plausible that a “doomsday” service plan might look something like this. But I’d like to suggest some tweaks to it:
 

- I’d have the  run solely from Dyre. With the  still on White Plains Road, the peak direction WPR  would be a pretty easy cut (it was suspended during “Essential Service” phase).

- I’d have the  go to Lefferts because that’s the busier branch and bustitute the Rockaways services.

- I’d keep the  and run it as a 6th Avenue local starting at 57th/6th, then via its current route after West 4th (the  ran this same service pattern from 1968-86).

- I’d also keep the  as a Queens-Manhattan service, terminating either at 34th St or 2nd Avenue. It would run express in Queens alongside the . Both lines’ northern terminals would be the same as now.

- I’d run the  as the QB local to/from 71st Ave, then via 63rd St tunnel, Broadway Express and the Manhattan Bridge. Then in Brooklyn, I’d have the  run local to/from Bay Ridge. 

- I’d run the  to/from Astoria to Stillwell via 60th, Broadway Local and Montague. Once in Brooklyn, the  would switch to the 4th Avenue express tracks and run to/from Stillwell via the Sea Beach Line (the  ran this same service pattern from 1994-2001). 

- The  would be discontinued.

I agree with the changes to the other services. Though I really, really hope it doesn’t have to come to this.

6 hours ago, danig1220 said:

Keep the  cut it back to 34th Street, and allow to  to go via West End and Sea Beach or the  to go via Bay Ridge and Sea Beach. Eliminate the   (7X). reroute the  to go via Crosstown. 

I’d prefer the  to go a bit further north to 57th because Rockefeller Center will eventually become bustling again and I think it’s too much of major destination to completely eliminate subway service to, even if 49th St on the  isn’t that far away. And having the  in Brooklyn would allow the  and  to each operate only on one branch off of 4th Avenue, instead of forking.

Edited July 9, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue
Clarity

[Bay Ridge Express]

Alright, this is admittedly stupid, but here's my idea (no tph metrics, but I'd imagine that one of the services that run on trunk lines would have their frequency intact if all other services on that line were to be eliminated):

 Far Rockaway/Ozone Park-Inwood. All local service.

 Eliminated, use  

 Eliminated, use .

 Coney Island-Columbus Circle, use  for service north of Columbus Circle.

 Anywhere in Midtown (42/50/7 Av)-Jamaica Center. All local service. Use  for Downtown service.

 Coney Island-Queensbridge, use  for Queens Blvd service.

 Smith-9 Sts-Court Sq, use  for service to Church Av.

 Unchanged (other than no Myrtle-Marcy express runs).

 Unchanged.

 Myrtle Av-Metropolitan Av, use .

 Coney Island-Astoria. All local service (including Lower Manhattan).

 Unchanged.

 95 St-59 or 36 St, use .

 Rockaway Beach: eliminated, use Q53; 42 St: eliminated, use  , Franklin Av: unchanged.

 Eliminated (duh), use .

 Eliminated (duh), use .

 Unchanged.

 Unchanged.

 Eliminated, use (8).

 Split into two sections: one is called the (8) and runs between Atlantic Av and New Lots Av, the other is designated as the regular  and runs between 14 St and Woodlawn, use  for service in between. All local service.

 E 180 St-Dyre Av, use .

 125 St-Parkchester, use  for service south of 125 St.  eliminated.

 Unchanged except for elimination of the .

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Bay Ridge Express

[mrsman]

On 4/12/2020 at 4:23 PM, mrsman said:

Replying to CenSin's post on DOOMSDAY service:

I like this, but I would go even further for bare bones.  I would think that some stations would have to be elminated (as is being done in Philly and Washington DC).  Where stations are closely spaced, people may have to walk to the next station for service.

As far as service, I'm draconian.

 No service south of 34th.  See next line.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Local service in Manhattan, and no service south of 34th, transfer to  or  for service further south in Manhattan.  Use  or  or  to transfer to  for Brooklyn IRT.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 eliminated.  148th and 145th customers need to walk to 135th/Lenox

 Local service, extended to New Lots.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Dyre Ave shuttle.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Service extended into Brooklyn serving local stops to Flatbush Ave/Brooklyn College.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Local service.  No  .  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Inwood to Far Rockaway along the local line.  No service to Lefferts.  Shuttle to Rockaway Park.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Eliminated.

 Eliminated.

 Bronx to West End line along the local lines but using Manhattan Bridge.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 WTC to Jamaica Center along the local lines.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Full line along the local lines, CI to 179.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Smith/9th to Court Square.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Jamaica Center to Fulton St.  (Trains terminate at Broad, but station is closed to passengers).  I want to preserve the transfer to  .  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Local service.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Myrtle Ave shuttle.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Full length of the line.  Express in Manhattan.  (See next line).  Local service in Brooklyn. via Manhattan Bridge.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Full length of the line.  Express in Manhattan.  All local stations on the Broadway BMT to be closed.  Use  for service in the area between Union Square and Atlantic, including Financail District and Downtown Brooklyn.  Customers wanting service at 23, 28, or 49 must walk to another nearby station.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Shuttle from 36St to Bay Ridge.  Some stations closed and people will walk to the next one.

 Franklin shuttle closed.

 eliminated.

 eliminated.

 

Basically, we are elminating several redundant stations and forcing people to walk.  The 7th Ave line is very close to 6th and 8th Ave services in Manhattan and the  can be used for service to Lower Manhattan to connect to Lexington trains for continuing service to Brooklyn.

The Broadway BMT south of 14th is also largely redundant in Manhattan, so most stations are eliminated.  Trains provide continuing service in order to connect to 2nd Ave, Astoria, and the Brooklyn services.  Use Lexington services to reach the local stations that are skipped.  I was also considering having N and Q Brooklyn service run as 6th Ave services (V and B) that would run to 2nd Ave and 145th St respectively, and eliminating the Broadway BMT entirely, other than a Herald Square to Astoria "shuttle".  But I felt that doing this would be more reasonable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In April, I posted the above as a doomsday scenario at the beginning of the COVID crisis.  My point wasn't to address a full scale collapse of the system as we are discussing now, but rather to conserve resources to weather the storm.  My focus was more on eliminating individual stations, rather than eliminating whole lines, with the idea that every neighborhood would still basically get service, even if they had to walk a little further to get it.  The inspiration for the above was that Philly and DC closed a few stations in their systems in order to conserve resources.  If you close 20% of the stations, you don't need to clean them on a regular basis and the staffing needed would be minimal.  It's far less of a sacrifice then my more recent post, but it's an interesting comparison when looking more broadly at doomsday scenarios as the board is currently doing.

[CenSin]

3 hours ago, mrsman said:

My focus was more on eliminating individual stations, rather than eliminating whole lines, with the idea that every neighborhood would still basically get service, even if they had to walk a little further to get it.  The inspiration for the above was that Philly and DC closed a few stations in their systems in order to conserve resources.  If you close 20% of the stations, you don't need to clean them on a regular basis and the staffing needed would be minimal.

I could live with that. I’m sure much of the closely spaced stations could close without incident.

[danig1220]

16 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Overall, it’s plausible that a “doomsday” service plan might look something like this. But I’d like to suggest some tweaks to it:
 

- I’d have the  run solely from Dyre. With the  still on White Plains Road, the peak direction WPR  would be a pretty easy cut (it was suspended during “Essential Service” phase).

- I’d have the  go to Lefferts because that’s the busier branch and bustitute the Rockaways services.

- I’d keep the  and run it as a 6th Avenue local starting at 57th/6th, then via its current route after West 4th (the  ran this same service pattern from 1968-86).

- I’d also keep the  as a Queens-Manhattan service, terminating either at 34th St or 2nd Avenue. It would run express in Queens alongside the . Both lines’ northern terminals would be the same as now.

- I’d run the  as the QB local to/from 71st Ave, then via 63rd St tunnel, Broadway Express and the Manhattan Bridge. Then in Brooklyn, I’d have the  run local to/from Bay Ridge. 

- I’d run the  to/from Astoria to Stillwell via 60th, Broadway Local and Montague. Once in Brooklyn, the  would switch to the 4th Avenue express tracks and run to/from Stillwell via the Sea Beach Line (the  ran this same service pattern from 1994-2001). 

- The  would be discontinued.

I agree with the changes to the other services. Though I really, really hope it doesn’t have to come to this.

I’d prefer the  to go a bit further north to 57th because Rockefeller Center will eventually become bustling again and I think it’s too much of major destination to completely eliminate subway service to, even if 49th St on the  isn’t that far away. And having the  in Brooklyn would allow the  and  to each operate only on one branch off of 4th Avenue, instead of forking.

I was still considering the  going to The Bronx.

[CenSin]

I see a flurry of proposals, but what are the criteria for keeping a station/line either in or out of service?

Station closure criteria:

• not a terminal and not a station with crew quarters and not an accessible station and not an express station and
  • below median ridership in 2019 or
  • has alternative subway stations within 0.5 mile radius and not a major transfer opportunity to/from another subway or bus route

Line closure criteria:

• below median ridership in 2019 (e.g.: Rockaways) or
• has parallel alternative within 1 mile radius (e.g.: Grand Concourse, 8 Avenue) and not a through line (e.g.: Nassau Street, Hillside Avenue)

Line closure rules apply first before station closure rules. Thus if a line is closed, the affected stations would be closed whether they meet the criteria or not. Though line closures criteria are harder to meet.

[bobtehpanda]

7 hours ago, mrsman said:

If you close 20% of the stations, you don't need to clean them on a regular basis and the staffing needed would be minimal.  It's far less of a sacrifice then my more recent post, but it's an interesting comparison when looking more broadly at doomsday scenarios as the board is currently doing.

The current problem is that the MTA stations were never designed to be closed, unlike Philly or DC which have regular night closures anyways.

Installing gates and the like is a capital expenditure which we also don't have money for, and staffing police at stations to prevent trespass costs more money than keeping stations open.

[Bay Ridge Express]

8 hours ago, CenSin said:

I see a flurry of proposals, but what are the criteria for keeping a station/line either in or out of service?

Station closure criteria:

• not a terminal and not a station with crew quarters and not an accessible station and not an express station and
• below median ridership in 2019 or

I hadn't even considered closing stations, but it's certainly interesting... some obvious ones come to mind, like Aqueduct Racetrack on the , Fulton St on the  (too close to Lafayette Av ) and potentially even Bergen St on the  (close to both 7 Av and Atlantic Av).

• has alternative subway stations within 0.5 mile radius and not a major transfer opportunity to/from another subway or bus route

Line closure criteria:

• below median ridership in 2019 (e.g.: Rockaways) or
• has parallel alternative within 1 mile radius (e.g.: Grand Concourse, 8 Avenue) and not a through line (e.g.: Nassau Street, Hillside Avenue)

I would close Hillside Av simply due to the fact that there are numerous bus transfers available at Jamaica Center.

Line closure rules apply first before station closure rules. Thus if a line is closed, the affected stations would be closed whether they meet the criteria or not. Though line closures criteria are harder to meet.

 

[LGA Link N Train]

This is off topic about whats being discussed (especially since the  doesn’t have the money and everyone in 2 Broadway and Albany are reactivate towards everything), but what if we’re to swap the alignment of the White Plains Road line and Pelham line near Whitlock Avenue? How much value would we gain from it? 

This is an idea where infrastructure would be moved around and what not so I’m going to explain what I mean: 

The WPR  Line between Sourhern Blvd and East 180th Street would be demolished and replaced with new track that goes straight down Westchester Blvd.  

Between East 180th Street and Whitlock Avenue, a new 3 track Structure would be built to connect with the Pelham Line via Sheridan Blvd. The intermediate stops (all local stations) along this new “connection” would be:

• Jennings Street

• 174th Street 

• (Maybe) Tremont Avenue. 

At Whitlock Avenue, a Transfer station will be built for the  and the . The  Station will be called Sheridan Blvd and will be a 3 Track, 2 Island Platform Station. From this scenario, a Mass potential of Reroutes are possible. The  would become the New Pelham Line and the  would become the new WPR Line in both Scenarios. Service would remain intact, but run differently. 

Scenario 1:

The  and  become the Pelham Lines with the  being the Rush Hour Peak Express Line. The  and a new Local (8) Line will handle White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue Respectively. 

Scenario 2: 

The  and  Take over the new Pelham Line with the  being the Peak Express Line whereas the  and  become the Lexington Local Lines with the  handling Dyre Avenue as it does today.  Service under this scenario would be doubled to 30 TPH as to not create any severe service cuts on Lexington. Depending on Whether or not Rogers Junction is deinterlined, service will run to New Lots at all times with half of all trains terminating at Utica.

This idea is kind of out there, especially considering the financial and political situation that the , the City and the State are in cause of COVID, but hey.... this is the first time in some time that I let my imagination run wild. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by LaGuardia Link N Tra

[LGA Link N Train]

 

delete.

Edited July 11, 2020 by LaGuardia Link N Tra

[JeremiahC99]

29 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This is off topic about whats being discussed (especially since the  doesn’t have the money and everyone in 2 Broadway and Albany are reactivate towards everything), but what if we’re to swap the alignment of the White Plains Road line and Pelham line near Whitlock Avenue? How much value would we gain from it? 

This is an idea where infrastructure would be moved around and what not so I’m going to explain what I mean: 

The WPR  Line between Sourhern Blvd and East 180th Street would be demolished and replaced with new track that goes straight down Westchester Blvd.  

Between East 180th Street and Whitlock Avenue, a new 3 track Structure would be built to connect with the Pelham Line via Sheridan Blvd. The intermediate stops (all local stations) along this new “connection” would be:

• Jennings Street

• 174th Street 

• (Maybe) Tremont Avenue. 

At Whitlock Avenue, a Transfer station will be built for the  and the . The  Station will be called Sheridan Blvd and will be a 3 Track, 2 Island Platform Station. From this scenario, a Mass potential of Reroutes are possible. The  would become the New Pelham Line and the  would become the new WPR Line in both Scenarios. Service would remain intact, but run differently. 

Scenario 1:

The  and  become the Pelham Lines with the  being the Rush Hour Peak Express Line. The  and a new Local (8) Line will handle White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue Respectively. 

Scenario 2: 

The  and  Take over the new Pelham Line with the  being the Peak Express Line whereas the  and  become the Lexington Local Lines with the  handling Dyre Avenue as it does today.  Service under this scenario would be doubled to 30 TPH as to not create any severe service cuts on Lexington. Depending on Whether or not Rogers Junction is deinterlined, service will run to New Lots at all times with half of all trains terminating at Utica.

This idea is kind of out there, especially considering the financial and political situation that the , the City and the State are in cause of COVID, but hey.... this is the first time in some time that I let my imagination run wild. 

What could be gained is new access between Eastern Bronx and Co-op City and the West Side of Manhattan via the  train. Currently such access does not exist except for the BxM7 from Co-op City and the BxM8 and BxM9 from Eastern Bronx. This could potentially be a good alternative for those riders.

Funny thing is that I actually thinking of l this sort of idea a short while ago and I was actually drafting a version of it. The main difference between yours and mine is that mine would’ve been underground 4-track subway lines that, while a bit of a pie-in-the-sky proposal to replace the 3-track el, could actually be beneficial in the long run as riders would now have all day bi-directional express subway service between Manhattan and the Bronx, which presently does not exist. Given its potential value, I might include it in my next (and larger subway expansion plan).

Edited July 11, 2020 by JeremiahC99

[Wallyhorse]

On 7/8/2020 at 11:15 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This is really overkill. Here’s my version of a Doomsday map:

 - Untouched. 

I’d keep the  in place of the  mainly cause White Plains is more popular than Dyre and you can’t terminate trains at Franklin unless you deadhead them to Livonia or something. 

 - No Rockaway Service (use Q52/53) All service goes to Lefferts. Trains will run Local to Compensate the loss of  Service. 

 - 145th Street-Coney Island via West End. (Days only) dead head runs to Concourse take place. For service to Concourse take the  

 runs Local in Queens alongside a truncated  

 are untouched. 

 - Local Service in Manhattan. 

 - Truncated to Whitehall. 

 and all  Shuttles are eliminated. 

My version, keeping service on all trunk lines to keep pols happy:

 and  run as they do now, except  runs local in Manhattan.

is a shuttle between 148-Lenox Terminal and 34th Street Penn Station at all times, running express.

runs at all times from Woodlawn-New Lots Avenue, local throughout

 runs all times except late nights between Dyre Avenue and Grand Central (late nights runs as it does now)

 and  run as they do now, but no express service peak hours

runs all times between 207th and Far Rockaway (have to keep the to Far Rockaway because of JFK travelers), local in Manhattan and Brooklyn

is eliminated

becomes a shuttle between Euclid Avenue and Lefferts Boulevard at all times except rush hours, when it runs as an express to and from 34th Street-Penn Station or Columbus Circle.

 runs as it does now except it also is now a local in Manhattan all times and in Brooklyn late nights

 and  run as they do now except runs local at all times and runs express to 179th Street during rush hours

runs from Church Avenue to 71st-Continental (local throughout), rush hours extended to 179th Street

becomes the official shuttle between Rockaway Park and Euclid Avenue.

runs as it does now except there is no skip stop.  Some trains terminate at Chambers Street during rush hours and are designated as  trains going southbound only.

 returns to brown and runs Metropolitan Avenue to 95th Street-Bay Ridge at all times

 becomes the full-time Broadway and 4th Avenue Local between Coney Island and Ditmars Boulevard. Additional service during rush hours only between Whitehall and Astoria is provided by trains designated southbound only as .  

runs as it does now 

is eliminated, replaced in Brooklyn by the 

Grand Central-Times Square runs rush hours only

Franklin Avenue runs as it does now

 and are eliminated except as noted for specifically designated trains. 

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

My version, keeping service on all trunk lines to keep pols happy:

What do the pols want anyway?