Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Lex]

Since some seem to be interested in doing this, I guess I'll put my two cents in.

The subway operates between 5:30 am and 11:30 pm, with shorter hours on weekends (6:30 am start on Saturday, 8 am-10 pm on Sunday).

 fewer/no short runs

 241st Street to Chambers Street (Wall Street with switches), express in Manhattan

 goes the way of the dodo

 Woodlawn to New Lots Avenue, no express service outside of Manhattan, no short-turns

 Dyre Avenue to Flatbush Avenue, no express service outside of Manhattan, no branching (branching trains are shifted to primary alignments, shortened to common alignment, or are dropped entirely)

 local service only, Parkchester short-turns become far less prevalent

 local service only

 207th Street to Euclid Avenue (Far Rockaway if Queens service is retained), local (express if Queens service is retained)

 161st Street to Brighton Beach (Coney Island if and only if  service drops low enough) via Brighton, only operates with 5-6 trips per direction for each rush period (scheduled for the busiest hour)

 formally folded into  operations (207th Street to Lefferts Boulevard local if Queens service is retained)

 161st Street to Coney Island via West End, local along 8th Avenue

 half of all trips (including 179th Street trips) are cut back to 71st Avenue and run local under a separate designation (say, )

 short-turns are eliminated, service is reduced

 service is reduced, OPTO in effect at all times (I know that won't fly with the unions)

/Rockaway Park Shuttle canned (reduced to the handful of  trips to/from Rockaway Park, with those trips being rebranded)

 Jamaica Center to Chambers Street, skip-stop finally abolished, trains run no more frequently than every 8 minutes

 service is reduced

 runs less frequently and is shifted to 63rd Street, weekend service is cut back to the Myrtle Avenue shuttle

 either assumes  route (Astoria to Coney Island via Montague) or becomes Broadway's  up Second Avenue (express in Brooklyn and Manhattan's CBD, running to/from 96th Street at the busiest times)

 reduced service

 95th Street to Queensboro Plaza (Whitehall Street on weekends), service starts 15 minutes later and ends 15 minutes earlier than most of the system

 either completely folded into  (designation disappears) or runs from Astoria to Coney Island via Sea Beach (local end-to-end, standing in for  service if that is relegated to the busiest hours andsent to/from 96th Street)

 Didn't I already say that the  would lose its skip-stop service? Why are you bugging me over this?

[shiznit1987]

Enough with the service cuts 😁. Here's a thought I had for a new turnstile design: 

The turnstile would feature saloon style doors like seen on Philly's Patco or the London Underground: 

https://cazort.net/photos/gates-PATCO-8th-street-station

 In this plan there would be two sets of them: The first set would be in the open position and the second set would be closed. A customer would walk up to the turnstile and tap their OMNY/Metrocard and the first set of doors would close behind them, then the second set that is in front of them would open up.  After a second, the second (fare control) set of doors would close and the first (outside fare control) set of doors would open to await the next passenger. This would prevent people trying to push in behind individuals with door-style turnstiles, plus doesn't limit capacity the same way HEETs do. 

I know you might be wondering about exiting passengers, I would have more iron madiens installed that are specifically exit only. 

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by shiznit1987

[Lex]

I just realized that I forgot the other shuttles.

42nd Street's would be used from 6:45 am to 8:15 pm, while Franklin Avenue's would get the ax.

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, CenSin said:

What do the pols want anyway?

The idea is, the pols would fight if the MTA did try to shut down entire lines.  That's why I did it where all stations are still served on every line, and in some cases with slight increases in service, but overall in a draconian way.  

[Wallyhorse]

13 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

My version, keeping service on all trunk lines to keep pols happy:

 and  run as they do now, except  runs local in Manhattan.

is a shuttle between 148-Lenox Terminal and 34th Street Penn Station at all times, running express.

runs at all times from Woodlawn-New Lots Avenue, local throughout

 runs all times except late nights between Dyre Avenue and Grand Central (late nights runs as it does now)

 and  run as they do now, but no express service peak hours

runs all times between 207th and Far Rockaway (have to keep the to Far Rockaway because of JFK travelers), local in Manhattan and Brooklyn

is eliminated

becomes a shuttle between Euclid Avenue and Lefferts Boulevard at all times except rush hours, when it runs as an express to and from 34th Street-Penn Station or Columbus Circle.

 runs as it does now except it also is now a local in Manhattan all times and in Brooklyn late nights

 and  run as they do now except runs local at all times and runs express to 179th Street during rush hours

runs from Church Avenue to 71st-Continental (local throughout), rush hours extended to 179th Street

becomes the official shuttle between Rockaway Park and Euclid Avenue.

runs as it does now except there is no skip stop.  Some trains terminate at Chambers Street during rush hours and are designated as  trains going southbound only.

 returns to brown and runs Metropolitan Avenue to 95th Street-Bay Ridge at all times

 becomes the full-time Broadway and 4th Avenue Local between Coney Island and Ditmars Boulevard. Additional service during rush hours only between Whitehall and Astoria is provided by trains designated southbound only as .  

runs as it does now 

is eliminated, replaced in Brooklyn by the 

Grand Central-Times Square runs rush hours only

Franklin Avenue runs as it does now

 and are eliminated except as noted for specifically designated trains. 

One other possibility for this:

becomes orange and replaces the through Chrystie as a 6th Avenue local, running to 96th Street-2nd Avenue with the  after 63rd-Lex with the Brown   becoming the sole service on Nassau (as the  and  would likely be running at reduced levels).  .

[R10 2952]

Well if the MTA's going to make cuts, then the path of least resistance would be to start off with eliminating special runs and put-ins. trains to/from 137th, s at 179th, etc.

Personally, I'd like to see them get rid of all the confusion on BMT Broadway- just cut all the superfluous trips to 96th, beef up service and call it a damn day.  Why make things complicated when they can be so simple?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

4 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Well if the MTA's going to make cuts, then the path of least resistance would be to start off with eliminating special runs and put-ins. trains to/from 137th, s at 179th, etc.

Personally, I'd like to see them get rid of all the confusion on BMT Broadway- just cut all the superfluous trips to 96th, beef up service and call it a damn day.  Why make things complicated when they can be so simple?

That’ll just cause confusion elsewhere. Those  trips were done specifically because they can’t turn any more  trains than they already do at Stillwell, so they borrow a few from the  (which can’t turn all of its trains plus the  at Ditmars) and one from the . Now if we relabeled all those 96th St-bound trips as Q’s, it would cause confusion in Brooklyn.

Same with the . The three E’s that start at 179 do so because Jamaica Center can’t turn all of the E’s rush hour service needs.

Edited July 13, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue

[CenSin]

6 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That’ll just cause confusion elsewhere. Those  trips were done specifically because they can’t turn any more  trains than they already do at Stillwell, so they borrow a few from the  (which can’t turn all of its trains plus the  at Ditmars) and one from the . Now if we relabeled all those 96th St-bound trips as Q’s, it would cause confusion in Brooklyn.

Same with the . The three E’s that start at 179 do so because Jamaica Center can’t turn all of the E’s rush hour service needs.

The point is to reduce service to save money. Those extras would simply be gone.

[Wallyhorse]

6 hours ago, CenSin said:

The point is to reduce service to save money. Those extras would simply be gone.

Right.  Those are the easiest cuts to make.

Other cuts as I noted in my own posts:

Eliminating the entirely with the running Whitehall-Astoria (yard runs from and to 86th Street) at all times except overnights.

can replace the  as the 4th Avenue local on Broadway and also run via the tunnel at all times ( would continue to run via the Bridge).

Have the become orange and have it run Jamaica Center to 96th Street-2nd Avenue via 6th Avenue at all times (no skip-stop,  also eliminated)

Return the  to brown and have it run at all times Metropolitan Avenue to 95th Street-Bay Ridge

This would actually be a service increase along Broadway-Brooklyn and 6th Avenue since the and  would both be 24/7 on their full routes and also along 4th Avenue local in Brooklyn since the and would both be locals on 4th Avenue via the tunnel with for those in Bay Ridge a same platform transfer between the  and  anywhere between 59th and Court Streets.

[MysteriousBtrain]

You had me until you mentioned orange J. Even if I agreed with the plan (I don't) why would you make things a lot more complicated for and riders?

[Yeti]

If you were to have another brown group train go to 96th, why not make it the ? 

For budget cuts, I'd say reduce  service and reduce extra trains to 96th. Or take off 1 or 2  trips? (just off the top of my head)

[CenSin]

11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

can replace the  as the 4th Avenue local on Broadway and also run via the tunnel at all times ( would continue to run via the Bridge).

This costs more money. When a train runs local, more trains are needed to maintain a particular headway.

11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Have the become orange and have it run Jamaica Center to 96th Street-2nd Avenue via 6th Avenue at all times (no skip-stop,  also eliminated)

Of the could continue doing what it already does limiting the spread of 8-car trains to the rest of the system.

11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Return the  to brown and have it run at all times Metropolitan Avenue to 95th Street-Bay Ridge

Would not be very popular since the desired destinations are in midtown Manhattan.

11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

This would actually be a service increase along Broadway-Brooklyn and 6th Avenue since the and  would both be 24/7 on their full routes and also along 4th Avenue local in Brooklyn since the and would both be locals on 4th Avenue via the tunnel with for those in Bay Ridge a same platform transfer between the  and  anywhere between 59th and Court Streets.

This would be an increase in service where it is not needed, not to mention the 24/7 aspect would increase costs unnecessarily.

[LGA Link N Train]

Since we're talking about service cuts, here's a combo of everything discussed along with some of my own ideas:

- All Extra Trips and Short turns will be cut. ( 's to 179th, 96th Put ins, Short turns,  short turns,  short turns, etc). 

- An idea that @Deucey mentioned in another thread to swap the  and  (Sending 's to Broadway Junction, 's to Metro, Peak Express ) Its a service cut as 2 trains are being cut from the current  along with skip-stop and another 2 trains from Myrtle are being cut. (in hindsight, 10  8 6 ) and then on weekends, the  would be cut entirely

- Rockaway and Dyre Avenue Trips would be cut outside of rush hours. Any train passenger needing to go to JFK would go to Lefferts Blvd and hop on the Q10 bus. 

-  Trains would continue to Pelham Bay Park while  Trains will end at Parkchester. This will be done to reduce complications regarding terminating trains. 

- All Shuttle Trips are cut.

Weekends:

- Service will be local between 145th and 168th and in Brooklyn. Service will be cut. 

- Service will be local on CPW since the doesn't run on Weekends

- Service is cut

- Service is cut as per usual. 

- Service is cut

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/13/2020 at 6:11 PM, CenSin said:

The point is to reduce service to save money. Those extras would simply be gone.

Ah yes. Reducing those extras would definitely be a start. I should have thought of that. If reducing the extra runs proves not to be enough, then we look at more drastic cuts. 

22 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Right.  Those are the easiest cuts to make.

Other cuts as I noted in my own posts:

Eliminating the entirely with the running Whitehall-Astoria (yard runs from and to 86th Street) at all times except overnights.

can replace the  as the 4th Avenue local on Broadway and also run via the tunnel at all times ( would continue to run via the Bridge).

Have the become orange and have it run Jamaica Center to 96th Street-2nd Avenue via 6th Avenue at all times (no skip-stop,  also eliminated)

Return the  to brown and have it run at all times Metropolitan Avenue to 95th Street-Bay Ridge

This would actually be a service increase along Broadway-Brooklyn and 6th Avenue since the and  would both be 24/7 on their full routes and also along 4th Avenue local in Brooklyn since the and would both be locals on 4th Avenue via the tunnel with for those in Bay Ridge a same platform transfer between the  and  anywhere between 59th and Court Streets.

Man, you really are obsessed with having a direct 2nd Avenue-6th Avenue service. And you really seem to miss the  running local. I don’t get why. I also don’t get why you’ve got both the  and  local on 4th Avenue and via the Montague Tunnel. Only one of them should be local (not the  ). As for eliminating the , if you do that, then the  should replace the  in Queens and Manhattan. Instead you’ve got it duplicating the . It doesn’t need to. Just run the  to/from Continental, leave the  express and the  at Court Square. And leave the  express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Come to think of it, the  could even run as the 4th Avenue local. In that case, why don’t we just call it the ? No need for confusing riders with a new letter for the same service.

Edited July 15, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Ah yes. Reducing those extras would definitely be a start. I should have thought of that. If reducing the extra runs proves not to be enough, then we look at more drastic cuts. 

Man, you really are obsessed with having a direct 2nd Avenue-6th Avenue service. And you really seem to miss the  running local. I don’t get why. I also don’t get why you’ve got both the  and  local on 4th Avenue and via the Montague Tunnel. Only one of them should be local (not the  ). As for eliminating the , if you do that, then the  should replace the  in Queens and Manhattan. Instead you’ve got it duplicating the . It doesn’t need to. Just run the  to/from Continental, leave the  express and the  at Court Square. And leave the  express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Come to think of it, the  could even run as the 4th Avenue local. In that case, why don’t we just call it the ? No need for confusing riders with a new letter for the same service.

I actually agree on the , which can run Whitehall to 71st-Continental with a restored to that point from Church as well.

The idea of all of this:

There were for many years complaints about the not going to Queens Plaza.  My plan restores that service in what are otherwise cuts and it also allows the to access Jamaica Yard.

The  and  trading places between the Nassau and 6th Avenue lines is essentially combining what was the old brown  with the  (and actually the old "bankers special"  trains) that would be discontinued.  This new version of the  is likely more efficient since it would be a far shorter route than the current  (if you remember, I previously proposed having a split and  run between 95th Street and Jamaica Center with both lines terminating at Chambers).  The new version of the  via 6th Avenue would keep that additional 6th Avenue local service with 96/2 as the terminal allowing for SAS service at all times via both Broadway and 6th Avenue.

The could run express but then run via the tunnel between Atlantic and Canal so a line from Brooklyn stops at Whitehall and the other lower Manhattan stops the current misses.  Making sure it at least made the stops between Atlantic and Canal was why I was looking at that also being a local.  

Edited July 15, 2020 by Wallyhorse

[CenSin]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

combining what was the old brown  with the  (and actually the old "bankers special"  trains) that would be discontinued.

The bankers special is precisely the problematic change because it creates a route that loops around an area most people are not going to. The could return to Astoria and that would also be a shortened route compared to the current .

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

This new version of the  is likely more efficient since it would be a far shorter route

But you lengthen the which you don’t justify. The unchanged would keep serving 6 Avenue just fine. And that is already the result of a service cut.

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

The could run express but then run via the tunnel between Atlantic and Canal so a line from Brooklyn stops at Whitehall and the other lower Manhattan stops the current misses.  Making sure it at least made the stops between Atlantic and Canal was why I was looking at that also being a local.

You’ll save on costs by not duplicating so many routes going through lower Manhattan. Currently, one of the two lines connected to the Montague Street tunnel is inactive. How is activating both connections cost neutral or a cost reduction?

[Caelestor]

I don't think short turns such as 137 St on the  and Myrtle-Wyckoff on the  are going away. In terms of fleet requirements, short turns are very efficient because fewer trains need to run empty to the ends of the lines, especially during peak hours when the labor requirement is the highest. For that reason, I think the  could actually be safe this time around and it would be the  (peak) headways that would get longer.

Following this logic, what would be cut is a combination of peak-only and express service, especially if more people are WFH, so that service is more uniform throughout the day. If I had to make some tough decisions:

• Eliminate  skip-stop service: this might be a service improvement for local riders.
• Cut the  to 145 St. I don't think the  can be removed from Brighton, 6 Ave, or even CPW without consequence but most Concourse riders prefer the  anyways. 
• Eliminate rush-hour  trains to Rockaway Park. The excess trains could be sent to Lefferts Blvd instead.
• Brooklyn IRT reconfiguration:
  • Extend the  to New Lots Ave full-time, running local east of Franklin Ave. Most  trains run express between Franklin and Utica Aves during rush hours to minimize congestion at Rogers Junction.
  • Make Flatbush Ave the usual terminal for the . Some  trains run local to New Lots Ave during peak hours.
  • Make Utica Ave the usual weekday terminal for the . During peak hours, some trains may be extended to New Lots Ave or shortened to Bowling Green to minimize congestion.
  • This "allows for" further cutbacks to the part-time  and  services if necessary.
• Death by a thousand cuts - Longer peak headways on the . 

That said, I would just switch to OPTO like every other metro in the world, and redirect the excess staff to managing crowds at busy stations. It's possible to reduce costs without actually impacting paying passengers.

[CenSin]

On 7/15/2020 at 2:58 PM, Caelestor said:

This "allows for" further cutbacks to the part-time  and  services if necessary.

The is already pretty choppable as-is currently. The only segment that the has all for itself is Eastchester. Instead, the current service pattern could be kept but with the cut back to Bowling Green at all times. That also eliminates the abuse of the flat junction east of Franklin Avenue.

[danig1220]

I have many questions.

How good is this current system? How can it be better? Is it okay to “maximize” all subway routes?  

[CenSin]

13 minutes ago, danig1220 said:

I have many questions.

I have many questions for your questions.

13 minutes ago, danig1220 said:

How good is this current system? How can it be better?

Define “good” or its opposite—“bad.”

Hitler might say that genocide is “good” for the Germans and would make a better country. Surely you’ll find a lot of people who disagree.

15 minutes ago, danig1220 said:

Is it okay to “maximize” all subway routes?

Maximizing what? There are a lot of aspects you can maximize. If you maximize certain aspects, it may also force other aspects to be minimized.

[danig1220]

 

18 minutes ago, danig1220 said:

I have many questions.

Is the Subway at its best state? How can we make it better? Is it okay to expand all subway routes to it’s full potential to reach as many people as possible?  

Sorry for the confusion earlier.

[CenSin]

7 minutes ago, danig1220 said:

28 minutes ago, danig1220 said:

I have many questions.

Is the Subway at its best state? How can we make it better? Is it okay to expand all subway routes to it’s full potential to reach as many people as possible?  

Sorry for the confusion earlier.

The key to getting good answers is asking good questions. Otherwise, people will just guess what your questions mean and answer the guessed questions (or ignore it).

I’m going to guess “best state” refers to the physical infrastructure (stability of support beams, reliability of signals, redundancy of electrical power sources, etc.).

(F.Y.I: Words like “good” and “best” tend to be unclear, because someone can always be best at something but worst at something else.)

[Lex]

On 7/15/2020 at 2:58 PM, Caelestor said:

• Brooklyn IRT reconfiguration:
  • Extend the  to New Lots Ave full-time, running local east of Franklin Ave. Most  trains run express between Franklin and Utica Aves during rush hours to minimize congestion at Rogers Junction.
  • Make Flatbush Ave the usual terminal for the . Some  trains run local to New Lots Ave during peak hours.
  • Make Utica Ave the usual weekday terminal for the . During peak hours, some trains may be extended to New Lots Ave or shortened to Bowling Green to minimize congestion.
  • This "allows for" further cutbacks to the part-time  and  services if necessary.

At that point, you may as well cut the  out of Brooklyn and drop the  entirely.

[EvilMonologue]

Is it a crazy idea to just have more shuttles sort of like what is done on weekends? As in the  would end at Myrtle Av, the Dyre Av Branch of the  at 180th St, the  just being a shuttle from Lenox Terminal to 135th St, the  running from Bay Ridge to 59th St in Brooklyn... If you timed the transfers right it could be a good way to cut down on costs, though it would be a pain for riders.

Also, the most recent post from Second Av Sagas talked about the budget shortfall, and basically concluded with saying that cuts to service, like we saw after the 2008 Recession, really only saved around $20 million, and that organizational fixes like having one conductor per train on LIRR could save much more than service cuts. Either way it seems like the MTA needs a bailout from the federal government because no amount of reasonable service cuts are going to close the gap in the budget.

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, EvilMonologue said:

Is it a crazy idea to just have more shuttles sort of like what is done on weekends?

It’s not. Methinks the late night subway service should be used as a template. But just to keep the system usable (a.k.a. less hassle transferring), the shuttles should strive to make some useful connections while remaining short.

• to be cut entirely since it is one of the few routes which largely duplicate another
• to 149 Street–Grand Concourse for a connection to 7 Avenue (), Lexington Avenue (), and Central Park West () which provides the broadest coverage of Manhattan all the way down to South Ferry
• to Broadway Junction, serving the Rockaways exclusively (meaning no ) while the serves Ozone Park full-time
  • Especially important is that the gets prioritized Broadway Junction-bound, but the gets prioritized Ozone Park-bound. This eliminates the dreaded missed connection.
• to Broad Street for the broadest selection of connections in Manhattan ()
• to Whitehall Street (as it already is) to maintain broadest selection of connections in Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn ()
  • In consideration for transfer opportunities, choice of service, and congestion avoidance, the should remain local, the should run express and over the bridge, and the should run via the tunnel serving lower Manhattan. DeKalb Avenue will continue to get both Broadway and 6 Avenue access that way. And the won’t all be sharing a stretch of track between DeKalb Avenue and Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center.

This keeps the subway service at least palatable while cutting enough to save money. (Obviously on the back end, the contractors, management, and other cuts of pork will have to go in order to contribute to cost reductions goals.) Frequency of service is up in the air as we don’t know how the ridership situation will unfold. If work-from-home becomes more firmly entrenched, then ridership may be permanently depressed.

The dynamite option is to close some stations even if it would cost money in the short term to install the necessary gates. As a side-effect, this would also speed up local service and reduce the number of trains running at any given moment.

The nuclear option would of course be to shut down entire lines/branches.

Edited July 17, 2020 by CenSin