Prendergast says MTA will soon ‘run out of money’ for capital projects

[bobtehpanda]

Any delivery guy/truck driver I've ever spoken to detests Manhattan and avoids it at all costs. I don't know any that choose to use Manhattan as a shortcut because it is so prone to traffic. But I'm sure there are some that do. The question is whether that is worth instituting all these tolls without having the needed infrastructure to support significant increases in mass transit

 

My experience on Canal St tells me a different story. It's full of trucks trying to avoid the high Verrazano tolls by going west using the bridges and tunnels and has been the reason given by DOT as to why they can't give Vision Zero treatment to the street even though it is very dangerous.

 

 

You've hit the nail on the head.

 

As I've said in numerous threads, politicians and the self promoting in the media love stupid stopgap measures like congestion pricing (and others) despite the long term costs to city residents and commuters, and despite their extreme ineffectiveness with the overall problem. (yay me! I bailed a tablespoon of water out of the sinking Titanic! Vote for me again!) because these are quick things with quantifiable numbers that can generate "results" within an election cycle and further the self-back-patting of the politicians.

 

Meanwhile the original issue remains unsolved. "But at least I did something!"

 

I don't know if closing a gap that is several billion dollars big is a "stopgap." But if it is, it's the most attractive option on the table.

 

The MTA says it doesn't have enough money, and we don't want it to become a hulking debt machine. We have two choices:

 

Raise taxes. The state and city barely run a surplus as it is, and their budgets are highly cyclical (and it appears we're at the top of one.) On top of that taxes are already the highest in the country here; we have very few options besides moving towards a Seattle-level 10% sales tax in the region. On top of this parts of the metro area (Long Island in particular) are depopulating because taxes are too high. So that's a no go.

 

Cut costs. Cutting construction costs and managing construction better would be a great idea, but that requires reform at the state level since MTA follows state procurement rules, and no one is ballsy enough to take on both construction unions and contractors at the same time. (Spitzer was about to, but Spitzer got thrown out of office.) In any case we can't do that quickly enough for the current Capital Plan. Labor costs are also very high, but I don't think anyone on this forum actually wants to make labor costs cheaper, either by reforming work rules or recognizing that a guaranteed pension is no longer sustainable in an age where national growth is low and bonds are at negative yields.

 

MoveNY has the additional benefit of spreading drivers around to all of the tolled crossings instead of concentrating congestion into free bridges that dump into city neighborhoods and not highways. Every driver I know, regardless of traffic conditions, takes the QB, Manhattan, WIlly B, or Brooklyn instead of the QMT or Triboro, even if doing the latter would be faster.

[N6 Limited]

My experience on Canal St tells me a different story. It's full of trucks trying to avoid the high Verrazano tolls by going west using the bridges and tunnels and has been the reason given by DOT as to why they can't give Vision Zero treatment to the street even though it is very dangerous.

 

Canal Street is a parking lot during busy travel times (rush hour and weekend evenings)

[R10 2952]

F-ck congestion pricing; the real problem is we have a corrupt governor who refuses to properly fund transportation, road infrastructure or education, and we have a fool for a mayor who wants to waste money on completely useless shit.  Maybe if people actually voted for sensible candidates we wouldn't have this mess in the first place...  

[Interested Rider]

In order to understand the politics of transportation, you have to understand what goes on in Albany. The problem is that other than two reporters from the rags, no one covers Albany so no one understands down here can relate to the games that they play up there. Unless you are a devoted reader of the Albany Times-Union which I was for many years or as I read Capitolconfidential.com now, there is no way to find out what is going on up there.

The reason that there is a problem with funding is upstaters want their share for their transit systems including roads before they will vote for anything that helps our city. You have the suburbanites that are the same way along with those present and former politicians who cannot wait to saddle the MTA  with something that the politicians can make millions off in the process. Remember 2 Broadway and the Fulton Street thing and how some one got his cut. Politicians always like to have their names in the rag or run before the cameras with some of the dumbest ideas and bus and subway transportation is one that gets publicity which is any elected officials crave. Just look at pg. 3 of last week's Bay News on the F express service and no matter how many times, it has been shown to be a dead issue, it resurfaces.

As far as the quality of our elected leaders, part of the problem is that our governor thinks that he has a divine right to the position (like someone who ran in the Presidential race this year) and when our local officials are challenged like they were in 2010 and the voters elected someone else, the district borders were changed two years later and it was back to business as usual. 

[MHV9218]

a fool for a mayor who wants to waste money on completely useless shit.  Maybe if people actually voted for sensible candidates we wouldn't have this mess in the first place...  

 

Like what? You wanted Joe Lhota? Or Catsimatidis? The clown show doesn't fix much.

[SubwayGuy]

Congestion pricing would keep drivers who don't need to drive off of the road helping relieve congestion. The tolls on these bridges would help provide much needed money for the upkeep and expansion of transit. Why should drivers going over the East River have to pay nothing while people in other parts of NYC without any transit options have to pay high tolls.

 

IMAGE REMOVED

• Miles driven within the charging zone during tolling hours shrank as well, from 582 million miles a year, to 500 million — a decline of 14 percent.

"At a hearing about Manhattan traffic this morning convened by Borough President Gale Brewer, a simple consensus emerged: The fundamental issue is the limited amount of street space in the Manhattan core and the practically unlimited demand to use it. Unless New York puts a price on roads, traffic congestion is going to remain intense.

“We can’t unsnarl our streets unless vehicles that take up the space on the street are charged a price. Otherwise, the space that we clear out today — by capping tour buses or Uber cars or 18-wheelers — will be filled tomorrow by other vehicle owners,” said transportation economist Charles Komanoff. “And the price needs to apply to all vehicles… based on the space that they take up. Because space is a finite resource.”

“The least efficient mode of transportation is the single-occupant car,” said “Gridlock” Sam Schwartz, who in addition to his Move New York toll reform proposal, backed the elimination of parking placards for most government employees. “There is no reason to be parking for free on the most valuable land possibly on Earth.”

Others proposed more aggressive ideas, like banning personal cars completely. “Private vehicles coming into Manhattan is insanity,” said Steve McLoughlin, an organizer with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers District 15, a union for black car drivers. “I don’t think that Manhattan can handle much more than the professional drivers, than the trucks that are necessary to supply our businesses, and the first responders.”"

http://www.streetsblog.org/2015/09/17/message-from-brewers-congestion-hearing-its-the-road-pricing-stupid/#more-350586

 

 

Except, remarkably...this:

 

-A big majority of the traffic in NYC streets during weekdays is taxicabs (which are relied upon by city residents) and commercial vehicles. I'm glad you can point to a bunch of "go green" propoganda that doesn't address the real problem. Are you going to ban taxicabs? Tell people who want a cab ride in the congestion pricing zone that they have to leave it in order to hail a cab? Or that they have to pay a surcharge which is not likely to discourage them from hailing the cab since their time is more important at this point? Tell taxicabs that they have to pay a surcharge if driving around looking for hails of their own volition in one of the primary areas that people are looking to hail cabs? What about commercial vehicles? They already are subject to some of the highest tolls in the nation on the river crossings that have them, since they pay far more than a 4 wheel personal vehicle. You want to gouge them more? You don't think the delivery companies will mark up their price, and therefore items being delivered into the city will cost more as the vendors raise the sale price in order to cover the markup being charged to them by the delivery companies as a result of their new fee for use of city streets???

 

-Never mind that you'd be charging this fee to service oriented companies providing a service in the congestion pricing zone. Hey, a fee that they can pass on to customers who simply LIVE in the CBD and don't happen to drive a car (and may not even own one!) Surely, now they'll think twice before calling the cable company when Showtime conks out!! During the day, many of these service calls are vendors operating under contract with businesses. If their vehicles are charged congestion pricing their costs go up and they pass them onto the businesses that are their customers. Congratulations, what effectively amounts to a tax on businesses just for being based in the CBD. I am not an advocate of tax breaks everywhere for businesses, I am in favor of tax codes that punish them for richly rewarding executives while not giving rank and file employees decent pay...but as someone who is very much a moderate, I recognize the complete stupidity of making running a business out of the CBD even more expensive than it already is just for posterity's sake. All this will do is cause more businesses to ask the question of why the hell they even bother to have a "New York Office" in midtown in the first place when they can just go downtown or uptown, or leave NYC altogether. Not good for commercial real estate, NYC jobs, etc...

 

-Most New Yorkers who are taking cabs often are either in a rush, or have the money to afford it and don't really care. A small surcharge is nothing more than a moneygrab. People who actually DO commute into the CBD generally pay among the highest prices for lot parking in the nation as it is. So what's another few bucks? It doesn't seem to be stopping them from doing this as it is. Many of the people who do this are part of the "bridge and tunnel" crowd, as it is known. A good chunk of them don't drive into Manhattan simply because they just love their car and hate the riffraff so much as the "transportation alternatives" crowd loves to spout...it's because the hours they work require them to drive since Metro-North, LIRR, and NJT do not provide full 24 hour service that would give them a reasonable arrival time to their job. And remember that the arrival time to Penn/GCT has to give them enough time to use public transit to get to their actual place of employment!

 

-To date, I have yet to see a viable option presented about how congestion pricing could possibly even remotely intelligently be implemented. Everything either hinges on (from the low tech) setting up glorified toll plazas marking the congestion pricing zone which not only would snarl traffic worse than ordinary gridlock, but would also obstruct and block important NYC businesses, infrastructure, and thoroughfares. Or, on the high tech end, places undue reliance on EZPass which is not as universal as people think (the "cash" lines are still by far the longest at any toll plaza, at a generally 5 to 2 ratio of EZPass lanes to cash lanes, so that means probably 25-35% of cars at most toll plazas are not using EZPass) with no consideration of those drivers who are not using it. Additionally, even if EZPass were universal, there are unique constraints to city streets that are not present with a toll plaza in the middle of a highway, such that if an EZPass toll plaza were created, it too would snarl traffic worse than now. If you go high tech with high speed readers such as on the Henry Hudson Bridge or certain out of state tolls on I-95, now you have the issue of how to photograph license plates in high volume traffic to issue summonses to drivers who try to get off without paying, and charge drivers who are not equipped with EZPass the congestion price. You also have the unique constraint on city streets of what should happen if someone were to be holding their EZPass in their hand walking down the street. Obviously they should not be charged, but how will a contactless system know the difference? This is not a consideration on a highway or bridge. And ALL of this costs a lot of money...millions or billions to research all alternatives, to draft a proposal, to submit it for recommendation, to discuss the environmental impact, to debate ad nauseum, all before anything actually even gets done. And when things get done, it means all sorts of street closures and ineffective reroutes to facilitate building the means of charging the people even more money in the name of money grubbing big government that knows better than you, as well as numerous closures periodically to maintain and service the new infrastructure that our government will have budgeted for the construction of, but not the maintenance of.

 

And maybe, it will make a microscopic dent in traffic. Some 2% of drivers that are out there terrorizing the hell out of the poor harmless damsels in distress on bicycles and their own two feet, will give in and say..."fine i'll take the (overcrowded) train". And when, as Maury says, "the results are in," then we can all stand in a circle, swing our dicks around, pat each other on the back, and celebrate like politicians as we clamor for re-election...over 2%.

 

Except by that point traffic will have grown by more than 10%, and the original boundaries of the CBD will be irrelevant as businesses and developers adapt and build outside and around it to accommodate demand. And then some asshat will suggest expanding the definition of the CBD to include developed areas around it, so that those areas too can fall under the umbrella of congestion pricing. And we'll be talking about new toll plazas, or methods of charging, just like we are now.

 

Meanwhile, the valuable resources that could have been devoted to expanding and improving the transit system so that it could actually be talked about someday as a viable alternative to half measures such as these, will have been wasted. And any "income" from congestion pricing will immediately be blown by the state budget (because this couldn't be a city initiative all by itself) not for transportation - because it never is - but for all sorts of superfluous political bullshit like upstate farm or frack subsidies (depending on how Republican or Democratic the state senate is feeling at that moment), or tax breaks for billionaire developers who build glass skyscrapers with 5% affordable housing that middle class people can never qualify for (and poor people who do qualify will never save anything for their own retirement paying the relatively high "reduced rent" which is intended to allow them only to not go bankrupt). Perhaps there will need to be even more new stadiums for teams that can afford to finance their own, and who knows what other civic hubs will need "oculuses" by then.

 

This is the world we live in, and I am not so naive and altruistic as to believe any of the nonsense. Congestion pricing is absolutely an idiotic idea, and has never been anything else other than that since the day the idea was hatched by whatever moron gave birth to this stillborn.

[SubwayGuy]

It won't suck for everyone. In fact, it is a win.

There will be less cars on the road in Manhattan meaning that for people who can't avoid driving, there will be time savings. Also, there would be less injuries due to less congestion. There would finally be a stable funding source for the MTA so that every four years we don't have to go through this long and tedious process. With additional money there could be critical expansion projects such as the Second Avenue Subway, East Side Access, as well as possibly a Queens Bypass, Utica Avenue Line, or Park Avenue Line in the Bronx. As the MTA controls the Bridges and Tunnels, there would also be benefits there as well. People in the far off reaches of Queens, Brooklyn, and Staten Island who don't have many choices could then save money and with this money they could reinvest in our economy. Eventually, under my control of the area's transportation system, there would be better service between the outer boroughs meaning that the fares on the bridges on the outer reaches of the city could then be raised.

 

You mean like how the "dedicated MTA payroll tax" charged to several upstate counties that benefit from commuter rail service, has, in reality, never gone to the MTA?

 

You mean like how our governor has repeatedly shut down any serious talk about "lock box" legislation that prevents the state from raiding dedicated MTA funds for their own agenda?

 

Like how the governor promised money to the MTA for the capital plan and has yet to deliver any? (The original concept of the thread)

 

Kind of like how the federal government has raided social security to pay for numerous deficits and pet projects over the years, never reimbursed it, and yet we have to hear erroneously all the time about how social security is "becoming insolvent" because the government's ability to borrow money from foreign countries will someday be exceeded by all the IOUs it is writing itself that won't pay retirees.

 

And that's the fiscal model you think will "fix" transit???

 

Wake up, the MTA is a political football. When the IRT and BMT existed, the city had them promise the nickel fare. The IND was created to compete with them both and keep the nickel fare, and between wartime inflation as the economy finally grew, the IRT and BMT were basically starved by the city to death while the IND benefitted from subsidies that allowed it to keep a 5c fare. So the system was unified under the city. And what happened 8 years later? The fare went up. Sure, the people got some free transfers. But now the city was in charge. And when Second Avenue Subway construction stalled for the second time, and the els were torn down, people blamed the CITY. When the city couldn't keep things afloat, the STATE stepped in. But the state didn't just "take" the system as the city had, no they learned their lesson! They created the MTA, put a whole bunch of transportation under it and voila. Now you have a scapegoat. Starve the MTA, service is bad, it's MTA's fault. But who's fault is it for starving the MTA?

 

It's been this way for almost 50 years. And when the state starves the MTA, the feds have to step in. Except the feds don't fix operational problems at the local level. They only provide money for improvements or disasters. That's why the feds can subsidize Sandy recovery work, or fortification against future storms, or can provide money towards new cars, technology, or research, but can't provide money to restore cut service, or maintain existing infrastructure.

 

When the feds can't step in, no one can. But EVERYONE - fed, state, and local - is going to make sure you know exactly who to blame! And it isn't them, it's the MTA! Because they created the MTA, and therefore they don't have to answer for anything the MTA does anymore, so make those guys at the MTA who always have to somehow deal a hand with 40 cards explain what's going on! We need more audits! More accountability! This is unacceptable! Make the MTA pay for an audit of themselves with money that we're not giving them so that WE can get answers, dammit!

 

Given this climate, it truly is remarkable that the subway system actually runs as well as it is when the politics behind everything about transportation in the greater NYC area is such a clusterf**k. But the wool has been pulled over the public's eyes and they can't see the truth, but here it is anyway!

[R10 2952]

Like what? You wanted Joe Lhota? Or Catsimatidis? The clown show doesn't fix much.

The clown show exists because not enough people vote for independent or third-party candidates.  I'm no fan of the Green Party, but I'd take them any day over the right-wing crazies and corporate elitists in the Republican Party or the phony liberals and corrupt machine politicians in the Democratic.  To quote Harold Melvin: "Wake up everybody".

[Interested Rider]

When I worked for government, I had a supervisor who told me "Don't send me problems, send me  solutions!" This made me think out a solution for the problems that developed in my unit and look at every single aspect of the problem in terms of developing a solution. This does not work with politicians as they just look at what will earn them a larger  margin of victory in the next election. They do not look at a solution to a problem unless it will give them face time in their favorite media on prime time and this is why there is no solution to the problem of transit financing.

In order for a dedicated source of transit funding to be passed and secured from the hordes of politicians who have their favorite pet programs that may not be necessary for our city to survive, it needs a strong active constituency in all the districts in large numbers where our numbers make a difference in their election. We don't have that in transit and as a result transit is dependent on others who use it to achieve their own goals which is not transit but self-aggrandizement. Just look at the State Senate race in Nassau County and what the emperor (governor) has done in terms of transit over the last couple of months as he wants the Republican to win in that race but not for transit but for the state Senate remaining Republican and serving as a check on the Assembly. The only time that government gets busy is when a crisis develops and they are put on the spot and even then they usually find an excuse to do nothing unless the voters demand it.

A dedicated source of funding is a must for NYC transit to make sure that the system can keep up with the constant rebuilding that is necessary for the system to keep it functioning but as long as we cannot make it the issue on the front lines such as Education, we will continue to have the funding crisis every year.

[Around the Horn]

SubwayGuy's response was golden!

 

There's a funding source none of you have mentioned yet and it's in the news right now.

Transportation Sales Tax (TST)

 

 

LACMTA has proposed a half-cent increase in the sales tax in their service area. All funds go directly to the LACMTA's capital budget.

This is expected to raise the sales tax to 9.5% and generate over $120 billion in capital funds over the next 40 years.

(That's $3 billion a year in capital funds on top of the existing budget)

 

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-transit-projects-20160319-story.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-poll-transportation-ballot-measure-20150507-story.html

http://thesource.metro.net/2015/10/14/staff-report-new-details-on-long-range-plan-undate-and-potential-ballot-measure/

[Union Tpke]

When I worked for government, I had a supervisor who told me "Don't send me problems, send me  solutions!" This made me think out a solution for the problems that developed in my unit and look at every single aspect of the problem in terms of developing a solution. This does not work with politicians as they just look at what will earn them a larger  margin of victory in the next election. They do not look at a solution to a problem unless it will give them face time in their favorite media on prime time and this is why there is no solution to the problem of transit financing.

In order for a dedicated source of transit funding to be passed and secured from the hordes of politicians who have their favorite pet programs that may not be necessary for our city to survive, it needs a strong active constituency in all the districts in large numbers where our numbers make a difference in their election. We don't have that in transit and as a result transit is dependent on others who use it to achieve their own goals which is not transit but self-aggrandizement. Just look at the State Senate race in Nassau County and what the emperor (governor) has done in terms of transit over the last couple of months as he wants the Republican to win in that race but not for transit but for the state Senate remaining Republican and serving as a check on the Assembly. The only time that government gets busy is when a crisis develops and they are put on the spot and even then they usually find an excuse to do nothing unless the voters demand it.

A dedicated source of funding is a must for NYC transit to make sure that the system can keep up with the constant rebuilding that is necessary for the system to keep it functioning but as long as we cannot make it the issue on the front lines such as Education, we will continue to have the funding crisis every year.

 

oops I accidentily negative voted you. I was trying to positive vote you. Sorry about that.

[bobtehpanda]

 

Except, remarkably...this:

 

-A big majority of the traffic in NYC streets during weekdays is taxicabs (which are relied upon by city residents) and commercial vehicles. I'm glad you can point to a bunch of "go green" propoganda that doesn't address the real problem. Are you going to ban taxicabs? Tell people who want a cab ride in the congestion pricing zone that they have to leave it in order to hail a cab? Or that they have to pay a surcharge which is not likely to discourage them from hailing the cab since their time is more important at this point? Tell taxicabs that they have to pay a surcharge if driving around looking for hails of their own volition in one of the primary areas that people are looking to hail cabs? What about commercial vehicles? They already are subject to some of the highest tolls in the nation on the river crossings that have them, since they pay far more than a 4 wheel personal vehicle. You want to gouge them more? You don't think the delivery companies will mark up their price, and therefore items being delivered into the city will cost more as the vendors raise the sale price in order to cover the markup being charged to them by the delivery companies as a result of their new fee for use of city streets???

 

We already regulate taxi numbers through medallions. Granted, restricting black-cab services like Uber is proving to be a lot harder, but the idea of restricting how many taxis can operate in the business district is not without merit and worked successfully for many years before the rise of ride-hailing apps. As far as delivery vehicles go, they, in fact, should be charged more, since road damage increases exponentially with weight. Last-mile delivery is not going to break the budget for any decently successful retail store.

 

-Never mind that you'd be charging this fee to service oriented companies providing a service in the congestion pricing zone. Hey, a fee that they can pass on to customers who simply LIVE in the CBD and don't happen to drive a car (and may not even own one!) Surely, now they'll think twice before calling the cable company when Showtime conks out!! During the day, many of these service calls are vendors operating under contract with businesses. If their vehicles are charged congestion pricing their costs go up and they pass them onto the businesses that are their customers. Congratulations, what effectively amounts to a tax on businesses just for being based in the CBD. I am not an advocate of tax breaks everywhere for businesses, I am in favor of tax codes that punish them for richly rewarding executives while not giving rank and file employees decent pay...but as someone who is very much a moderate, I recognize the complete stupidity of making running a business out of the CBD even more expensive than it already is just for posterity's sake. All this will do is cause more businesses to ask the question of why the hell they even bother to have a "New York Office" in midtown in the first place when they can just go downtown or uptown, or leave NYC altogether. Not good for commercial real estate, NYC jobs, etc...

 

People pay NYC taxes for access to NYC infrastructure and NYC talent. UBS just moved its headquarters back to the city from Stamford because they couldn't attract people. Suburban office vacancies are reaching all time highs while office vacancies in the city reach all time lows.

 

Plus, is it a necessarily bad thing if a business decides to move out to LIC, Downtown Brooklyn, Williamsburg, Red Hook, Fordham, Flushing, Jamaica, or any of the other business districts not in the core but still very accessible by transit? It would be better for everyone if job growth stopped concentrating so hard in the core.

 

-Most New Yorkers who are taking cabs often are either in a rush, or have the money to afford it and don't really care. A small surcharge is nothing more than a moneygrab. People who actually DO commute into the CBD generally pay among the highest prices for lot parking in the nation as it is. So what's another few bucks? It doesn't seem to be stopping them from doing this as it is. Many of the people who do this are part of the "bridge and tunnel" crowd, as it is known. A good chunk of them don't drive into Manhattan simply because they just love their car and hate the riffraff so much as the "transportation alternatives" crowd loves to spout...it's because the hours they work require them to drive since Metro-North, LIRR, and NJT do not provide full 24 hour service that would give them a reasonable arrival time to their job. And remember that the arrival time to Penn/GCT has to give them enough time to use public transit to get to their actual place of employment!

 

The point is that they are paying charges so that the subway riders don't join the car commuters and make the City look like the post-Sandy traffic hellhole every day. It's like how you pay taxes to educate children that aren't your own so that they don't become deadbeats relying on your tax dollars.

 

Also, you realise it is possible to implement congestion charging without making a 24/7 premium price, right? PANYNJ already has differences between peak and off peak tolling; if they can do that with EZ-Pass, we can certainly do it here.

 

-To date, I have yet to see a viable option presented about how congestion pricing could possibly even remotely intelligently be implemented. Everything either hinges on (from the low tech) setting up glorified toll plazas marking the congestion pricing zone which not only would snarl traffic worse than ordinary gridlock, but would also obstruct and block important NYC businesses, infrastructure, and thoroughfares. Or, on the high tech end, places undue reliance on EZPass which is not as universal as people think (the "cash" lines are still by far the longest at any toll plaza, at a generally 5 to 2 ratio of EZPass lanes to cash lanes, so that means probably 25-35% of cars at most toll plazas are not using EZPass) with no consideration of those drivers who are not using it. Additionally, even if EZPass were universal, there are unique constraints to city streets that are not present with a toll plaza in the middle of a highway, such that if an EZPass toll plaza were created, it too would snarl traffic worse than now. If you go high tech with high speed readers such as on the Henry Hudson Bridge or certain out of state tolls on I-95, now you have the issue of how to photograph license plates in high volume traffic to issue summonses to drivers who try to get off without paying, and charge drivers who are not equipped with EZPass the congestion price. You also have the unique constraint on city streets of what should happen if someone were to be holding their EZPass in their hand walking down the street. Obviously they should not be charged, but how will a contactless system know the difference? This is not a consideration on a highway or bridge. And ALL of this costs a lot of money...millions or billions to research all alternatives, to draft a proposal, to submit it for recommendation, to discuss the environmental impact, to debate ad nauseum, all before anything actually even gets done. And when things get done, it means all sorts of street closures and ineffective reroutes to facilitate building the means of charging the people even more money in the name of money grubbing big government that knows better than you, as well as numerous closures periodically to maintain and service the new infrastructure that our government will have budgeted for the construction of, but not the maintenance of.

 

First of all, who the hell just carries around an EZ-Pass? In any case, congestion pricing has been implemented since the 1980s using a mix of RFID and license plate readers. It's not hard to find out where a license plate is registered if it's out of state, and Port Authority and MTA both already use this technology.

 

And maybe, it will make a microscopic dent in traffic. Some 2% of drivers that are out there terrorizing the hell out of the poor harmless damsels in distress on bicycles and their own two feet, will give in and say..."fine i'll take the (overcrowded) train". And when, as Maury says, "the results are in," then we can all stand in a circle, swing our dicks around, pat each other on the back, and celebrate like politicians as we clamor for re-election...over 2%.

 

The point is to redirect traffic that doesn't need to go through Manhattan away from it. Truck drivers going to the Island don't need to use it. Every single driver I know in Queens and Brooklyn goes westbound through Manhattan to avoid paying tolls when leaving the city; they don't need to be doing that either. You can raise the tolls to the current MTA levels on the East River crossings, slash tolls on outer borough crossings to 1/2 or 1/4 of the cost and still come out with $1B a year.

 

Except by that point traffic will have grown by more than 10%, and the original boundaries of the CBD will be irrelevant as businesses and developers adapt and build outside and around it to accommodate demand. And then some asshat will suggest expanding the definition of the CBD to include developed areas around it, so that those areas too can fall under the umbrella of congestion pricing. And we'll be talking about new toll plazas, or methods of charging, just like we are now.

 

Traffic speeds have actually risen in London since congestion pricing was implemented; congestion is not nearly as pressing outside of Manhattan below 60th St.

 

Meanwhile, the valuable resources that could have been devoted to expanding and improving the transit system so that it could actually be talked about someday as a viable alternative to half measures such as these, will have been wasted. And any "income" from congestion pricing will immediately be blown by the state budget (because this couldn't be a city initiative all by itself) not for transportation - because it never is - but for all sorts of superfluous political bullshit like upstate farm or frack subsidies (depending on how Republican or Democratic the state senate is feeling at that moment), or tax breaks for billionaire developers who build glass skyscrapers with 5% affordable housing that middle class people can never qualify for (and poor people who do qualify will never save anything for their own retirement paying the relatively high "reduced rent" which is intended to allow them only to not go bankrupt). Perhaps there will need to be even more new stadiums for teams that can afford to finance their own, and who knows what other civic hubs will need "oculuses" by then.

 

Wasted on what? Universal pre-K? CUNY? Education? Water Tunnel No. 3? More cops? The City and State do not just have billions lying around that can magically patch the hole in the budget, and what surpluses they are making should be going into rainy-day funds so that we can ride out the next recession, which is probably sooner than we think given the state of the global economy. And this is before we get into stuff like the looming pension crisis.

 

This is the world we live in, and I am not so naive and altruistic as to believe any of the nonsense. Congestion pricing is absolutely an idiotic idea, and has never been anything else other than that since the day the idea was hatched by whatever moron gave birth to this stillborn.

 

The alternative, thinking that we can just scream "WASTE" till our throats are hoarse and money will manifest itself, is also pretty naive.

[RailRunRob]

You mean like how the "dedicated MTA payroll tax" charged to several upstate counties that benefit from commuter rail service, has, in reality, never gone to the MTA?

 

You mean like how our governor has repeatedly shut down any serious talk about "lock box" legislation that prevents the state from raiding dedicated MTA funds for their own agenda?

 

Like how the governor promised money to the MTA for the capital plan and has yet to deliver any? (The original concept of the thread)

 

Kind of like how the federal government has raided social security to pay for numerous deficits and pet projects over the years, never reimbursed it, and yet we have to hear erroneously all the time about how social security is "becoming insolvent" because the government's ability to borrow money from foreign countries will someday be exceeded by all the IOUs it is writing itself that won't pay retirees.

 

And that's the fiscal model you think will "fix" transit???

 

Wake up, the MTA is a political football. When the IRT and BMT existed, the city had them promise the nickel fare. The IND was created to compete with them both and keep the nickel fare, and between wartime inflation as the economy finally grew, the IRT and BMT were basically starved by the city to death while the IND benefitted from subsidies that allowed it to keep a 5c fare. So the system was unified under the city. And what happened 8 years later? The fare went up. Sure, the people got some free transfers. But now the city was in charge. And when Second Avenue Subway construction stalled for the second time, and the els were torn down, people blamed the CITY. When the city couldn't keep things afloat, the STATE stepped in. But the state didn't just "take" the system as the city had, no they learned their lesson! They created the MTA, put a whole bunch of transportation under it and voila. Now you have a scapegoat. Starve the MTA, service is bad, it's MTA's fault. But who's fault is it for starving the MTA?

 

It's been this way for almost 50 years. And when the state starves the MTA, the feds have to step in. Except the feds don't fix operational problems at the local level. They only provide money for improvements or disasters. That's why the feds can subsidize Sandy recovery work, or fortification against future storms, or can provide money towards new cars, technology, or research, but can't provide money to restore cut service, or maintain existing infrastructure.

 

When the feds can't step in, no one can. But EVERYONE - fed, state, and local - is going to make sure you know exactly who to blame! And it isn't them, it's the MTA! Because they created the MTA, and therefore they don't have to answer for anything the MTA does anymore, so make those guys at the MTA who always have to somehow deal a hand with 40 cards explain what's going on! We need more audits! More accountability! This is unacceptable! Make the MTA pay for an audit of themselves with money that we're not giving them so that WE can get answers, dammit!

 

Given this climate, it truly is remarkable that the subway system actually runs as well as it is when the politics behind everything about transportation in the greater NYC area is such a clusterf**k. But the wool has been pulled over the public's eyes and they can't see the truth, but here it is anyway!

Well said !

[jon2305]

You mean like how the "dedicated MTA payroll tax" charged to several upstate counties that benefit from commuter rail service, has, in reality, never gone to the MTA?

 

You mean like how our governor has repeatedly shut down any serious talk about "lock box" legislation that prevents the state from raiding dedicated MTA funds for their own agenda?

 

Like how the governor promised money to the MTA for the capital plan and has yet to deliver any? (The original concept of the thread)

 

Kind of like how the federal government has raided social security to pay for numerous deficits and pet projects over the years, never reimbursed it, and yet we have to hear erroneously all the time about how social security is "becoming insolvent" because the government's ability to borrow money from foreign countries will someday be exceeded by all the IOUs it is writing itself that won't pay retirees.

 

And that's the fiscal model you think will "fix" transit???

 

Wake up, the MTA is a political football. When the IRT and BMT existed, the city had them promise the nickel fare. The IND was created to compete with them both and keep the nickel fare, and between wartime inflation as the economy finally grew, the IRT and BMT were basically starved by the city to death while the IND benefitted from subsidies that allowed it to keep a 5c fare. So the system was unified under the city. And what happened 8 years later? The fare went up. Sure, the people got some free transfers. But now the city was in charge. And when Second Avenue Subway construction stalled for the second time, and the els were torn down, people blamed the CITY. When the city couldn't keep things afloat, the STATE stepped in. But the state didn't just "take" the system as the city had, no they learned their lesson! They created the MTA, put a whole bunch of transportation under it and voila. Now you have a scapegoat. Starve the MTA, service is bad, it's MTA's fault. But who's fault is it for starving the MTA?

 

It's been this way for almost 50 years. And when the state starves the MTA, the feds have to step in. Except the feds don't fix operational problems at the local level. They only provide money for improvements or disasters. That's why the feds can subsidize Sandy recovery work, or fortification against future storms, or can provide money towards new cars, technology, or research, but can't provide money to restore cut service, or maintain existing infrastructure.

 

When the feds can't step in, no one can. But EVERYONE - fed, state, and local - is going to make sure you know exactly who to blame! And it isn't them, it's the MTA! Because they created the MTA, and therefore they don't have to answer for anything the MTA does anymore, so make those guys at the MTA who always have to somehow deal a hand with 40 cards explain what's going on! We need more audits! More accountability! This is unacceptable! Make the MTA pay for an audit of themselves with money that we're not giving them so that WE can get answers, dammit!

 

Given this climate, it truly is remarkable that the subway system actually runs as well as it is when the politics behind everything about transportation in the greater NYC area is such a clusterf**k. But the wool has been pulled over the public's eyes and they can't see the truth, but here it is anyway!

 

The most accurate opinion I've heard in a while.

I think we all need to start waking up and STOP having ourselves so brainwashed by the feds, state, media, hypnotized locals, or some naive moron with governing powers who's words mean nothing but a bunch of hog wash at the end of the day. Yet, we're so distracted by a stupid expensive "oculuses" and a bunch of other cotton candy bull**** (Times Square, or how to make the buses "look" cool and Trump).

 

There's a lot of waking up to do, not just around the situations in New York but around the country as well.

 

But for now, here's a video link courtesy of The Riders Alliance which may be relevant to this topic. The naive moron I touched on is in the video.

[SubwayGuy]

The most accurate opinion I've heard in a while.

I think we all need to start waking up and STOP having ourselves so brainwashed by the feds, state, media, hypnotized locals, or some naive moron with governing powers who's words mean nothing but a bunch of hog wash at the end of the day. Yet, we're so distracted by a stupid expensive "oculuses" and a bunch of other cotton candy bull**** (Times Square, or how to make the buses "look" cool and Trump).

 

There's a lot of waking up to do, not just around the situations in New York but around the country as well.

 

But for now, here's a video link courtesy of The Riders Alliance which may be relevant to this topic. The naive moron I touched on is in the video.

 

Exactly. Too many people with too much faith in the system. Keep believing the hype, we are always in a crisis and the government needs our help! Then how else will volunteers like bobtehpanda go to bat for their interests and sign up to give their (and your, and my) hard earned dollars away to the government so that it will fix everything for us!

 

Nothing will change until someone with a real vision gets into office. Look at Bloomberg. A corporate sellout who pushed his own agenda and railroaded gentrification everywhere with no plan for transportation for anyone, just high rises with luxury condos, a small nod to the necessity of "affordable" housing (30%+ of gross income on rent is still not affordable living no matter how little you make), a few fake smiles, and give the press conference bilingually in laughably bad Spanish and let's call it a three terms!

 

So the backlash is to elect someone like Bill DeBlasio who's going to be for the people. But like a wolf in sheep's clothing, he's not here to help the poor. He's just another well off suit who is burdened by white guilt, who can't listen to the issues that are going on around him with a critical ear because he has no experience in these areas, but he is going to give up the farm to special interests because he doesn't know better. Greenlight projects with affordable housing! Who cares how much they benefit developers, or that the areas need improvements to transportation, I'm building homes for poor people! Never mind the middle class housing that's getting destroyed in the process, we won't talk about that. Development lifts people out of poverty! I know because a real estate developer told me. We need more commercial zoning on first floors...more retail! That will revitalize bad areas (because, you know, it's not the case that literally every ghetto in NYC has first floor retail already...where else would you find bodegas for the riffraff to hang out, the Chinese and chicken spot with the full height bulletproof glass and no seats in it, and the check cashing places)...because let's bring that model to residential communities now! For no other reason that it looks nice in certain bucolic Brooklyn neighborhoods that have actually already been that way for decades!

 

And let's decriminalize criminal behavior because, frankly, it's just happening too often, and if something happens that often it can't be criminal. I mean who cares if women are getting harassed at night by dudes with their dicks out pissing in the streets and hitting on them, or if dumbasses who carry guns in the subway are too stupid to not walk between cars and this nabs a handful of them every year? We need to roll this back, and watch the mayhem as the squeegee men, the panhandlers, and the hustlers take back NYC while the law abiding citizens are forced to ENDURE more and more every year, because you know you can't say anything to a law breaker, they'll just pull out a knife and slash you since they don't have to worry about getting busted for carrying one anymore.

 

Meanwhile DeBlasio has no plan at all for transportation, never did. His plan for transportation is, "well, the Second Avenue Stubway (sic) is getting built!" And let's let my boss that guy I fight with in Albany determine what might be best for transportation, like whether a LaGuardia Airtrain for people largely coming from or going to Manhattan should come out of Corona or not. Ooh, I know one more group I can ask about transportation. Local leaders! How about someone on a community board to suggest bringing back the F express! Yes, I am just full of good ideas today.

 

Nothing will change if this keeps up.

 

NYC and NYS needs leadership that is as follows:

-Tough and non forgiving on crime

-Fair and equitable in punishments for crime, with the only consideration for prejudice in this area being previous crimes

-Willing to look at towns (state) / neighborhoods (city) and the existing character of each judiciously when considering new development, and also leery of large projects in favor of smaller developments that are more community and skyline oriented

-Understanding of the importance that transportation plays not just in NYC, but around the entire region. That means everything - roads, buses, bridges, subways, commuter rail, ferries, taxis etc. and a willingness to learn the interplay and correct the "mix" of transportation options to be more representative of the service people actually desire. This city is way too bus dependent for such a large metro area as it is, and reducing the need for buses, and dedicated bus lanes, in favor of more rail transit improves traffic for everyone and gives a benefit in speedier commutes which increases economic productivity at work. Improving hours of commuter rail service (to 24 hours) would eliminate the need for people to drive who work non traditional hours.

-Understanding that upstate and NYC are often politically opposed to each other but we want the same thing - jobs and infrastructure. Everything else is just noise. Upstate New York should be a haven for so called "green collar" jobs. It's beautiful, has access to the Hudson River, and a varied multi-climate ecosystem. There's a hell of a lot more the upstate NY jobs discussion than farms and fracking, and it's time the state had a leader who was willing to talk about that.

-Understanding that cost of living is higher in the city and dollar amount thresholds should represent that.

-Understanding that millionaires can and should pay more in municipal taxes, and that if someone's going to pay to shore up state and local finances, it should not be those who can afford it the least. Also, understanding that there is a difference between a millionaire and a billionaire (they are not just "both rich") and that the billionaire can and should pay more. Third, understanding that taxing a business is destructive to jobs, and that the best way to do it is to have relatively low taxes on businesses (but some), but a very progressive tax rate that penalizes extreme high earners and reduces the tax deductibility of exorbitant wages for the businesses that pay this way. This gives a shareholder driven reason to vote against "hoarding" of assets by the 1% that controls income distribution, and also gives a tax incentive to businesses to reinvest those dollars instead in new development/growth, or in paying their middle and working class people more. Which increases discretionary income for those who spend the most (as a % of income) and the money keeps flowing. Wow, this is how you create growth.

-Prepared to make investments now for the future. The time to build the Second Avenue Subway, conservatively, was 1950. Not 2016. By now we should be talking about service to Bell Blvd. in Queens, a second IND line through Queens, a far west side line in Manhattan that could potentially provide crosstown service in the Bronx, and extension of the 2/5 in Brooklyn out to Kings Plaza with a proper terminal there. And we should already have both a reactivated Rockaway Beach branch tied into the existing subway system and a full length 2nd Avenue line in Manhattan extending up 3rd Avenue in the Bronx. This is how far we are behind. So we've got to catch up by building projects one by one, since that's the only way to do it.

-Understands that any project requires capital funds, but also operating funds to maintain it once it is built.

-Willing to hold people accountable for their actions and not bubble wrap everything. Platform Screen Doors are a non starter, let's just stop talking about it. Or congestion pricing. Let's talk about more river crossings, better street and traffic design, grade separating the lower part of the West Side highway to eliminate a lot of downtown gridlock while making what's there now the "local streets" beneath it.

 

That'd be a nice beginning.

[SubwayGuy]

Conservative: "I don't believe in gay marriage. What people do in the bedroom is my business. Morality, bitches. And Jesus. And God. Whole lotta both. No abortions for anyone, dammit. However, I believe in small government. Let's cut taxes. I believe in trickle down economics despite 35 years of proof to the contrary in recent memory, and 4,000 years of human history before 1900, so therefore the best place to start with my proposed cuts is with the rich. Also, business should be allowed to do whatever it wants, and may the richest strongest survive. However, we must continue to finance all kinds of war to protect ourselves from brown people because we want their oil so I know the budget isn't as small as I'd like, therefore we'll just have to cut programs and benefits that help people who work for a living to pay for it all."

 

Liberal: "I do believe in gay marriage. I don't really care what people do in the bedroom, and abortions are a woman's choice. However, nothing in life is free, and everyone should pay their share for the benefit of everyone. So it should cost more to eat or drink foods that I think are unhealthy, even though most experts agree what you eat is not as important as how often you eat it, or how active your lifestyle is. Because I'm not actually poor, I'm now going to spend the rest of my term wasting everyone's time with a bunch of social campaigns that have nothing to do with the broke people that will never have a proper retirement despite working their whole lives. Bicycles! Animal rights for carriage horses! Soda bans! Corporate subsidies for companies I like that do something amazing! Foreign aid for countries that hate us! Also because I'm not actually poor, I have no idea what poor and middle class actually are, so I'm going to ask a bunch of special interests what they think to work out all the finer points of my bright ideas! I trust them so much since they give me so much money! But vote for me if you want to legalize weed (and ban soda)! And don't worry how much anything I'm discussing costs. We can just raise taxes. On high earners. Which is pretty much everyone making over $35,000 a year, since that's the median national income. Oh, but don't worry about me. My money comes from capital gains and speaking fees, I'll be OK! And I won't cut military spending either, because if the brown people attack us afterwards, then I'll just look really bad, and I can't risk that. I have political aspirations, you know!"

 

WE HAVE GOT TO GET OUT OF THIS CYCLE.

 

Goverment's job is to protect the country, regulate business to ensure fairness in the marketplace, uphold individual rights so much as they do not interfere with the rights of others, and provide necessary services.

 

Government's job is not to dictate human behavior.

 

Government is supposed to be government by the people, electing those among themselves they wish to have represent them and their interests in parliamentary bodies (Congress) or to specific titles (President) with checks and balances on all (which is why the Supreme Court is not an elected position...three differently appointed branches of government ultimately decide policy)

 

How can we have representative government when everyone in government is rich?

[Around the Horn]

Subway Guy for mayor LOL

 

Too many good points man!

[Daniel The Cool]

For those who kept saying the crime is going down in the subway because of the "Stats" despite the attacks happening more than before doesn't have a clue what they're saying. Try being a victim of one and I bet your attitudes will change.

[jon2305]

Subway Guy for mayor LOL

 

Too many good points man!

 

He's ultimately right in the fact that it's just the way it is, it's a bunch of bullcrap and is VERY frustrating. Garbage In, Garbage Out as the late great Gorge Carlin said. You VOTE with your dollar, think about it public of America.

 

We have a poor population in the south of the United States willing to elect Trump for president in spite of being hate-filled, as a result you have this hardline ethic. Plus, we are trapped in a scarcity world view with extreme over-consumption in order to keep the modern economy machine working. We are programed to have a certain drive for consumption, that's why things like "planned-obsolescence" exist.  If your Iphone 6 breaks down sooner than you think it's because it was planned to do so and eventually they launch a new one all in the name of consumption. Let's face it, our economy is NOT efficient if you think about how people few in far between own much more money than half or more than those on this planet, it's ridiculous. Even if it was efficient, it still would be shut down because the the paranoid reaction of the system. But at the same time it's BUSINESS it's a corporation that's comfortable with the way it currently operates under and that's a problem and that's were a majority of people don't want to dig deep into because the sh** is way into deep. People have digested to work so hard to gain the "American Dream" and forget why the system is made for it to exist like that and don't bother to find the energy to ask questions. Why do the lower & middle class get the short end of the stick? Why is there so much debt going around torturing a country or more importantly an individual? To understand debt you have to understand the mathematical reality of it and it's both corrupt and sickening to the stomach.

It's a scary world out here guys and the sad thing is that these people in power don't have a clue what it all means because they only see it as BUSINESS as oppose to lives being destroyed or what not.

 

Transportation has a history of being victimized by cartels in shutting down efficient rail ways & public transportation in favor of automobiles.

Heck, the original Penn Station was torn down at a time of "rail usage in decline" and to this very day in age politicians, planners, and advocates have long morn and groan at the lose of this capacity efficient Beaux-Arts style grand station.

 

The "clock-is-ticking" on the State to fund the MTA cause it's remarkably vital to New York City and the outer regions, it's an opportunity to truly invest in transportation, infrastructure, and service capacities.  The subway system is under pressure no doubt about it and alot of efficient resources need to be invested on to keep it stable and running or else where in for the long hall.

[Interested Rider]

My thanks to all for their enlightened views on the subject which will be totally disregarded by our esteemed elected leaders as they did not think of it or can figure out a way to make money off of transit. For those who complain about waste of resources just ask any present or former government worker and they can tell you stories that will make your hair stand straight up. The more that I read or hear, the more that I am convinced that it will never get better, only worse, much worse in the years to come as we the public is perceived as  the problem as we do not vote for their preferred candidates. According to them, we do not have the capability of choosing the person that will represent our interests and views. When we reject their handpicked chosen ones, the powers that be blame us for being union workers or wanting a "middle class" lifestyle and for that we are to be punished. We are not part of the elite that knows everything and who are making us thankful for the crumbs that we are thrown by these know it all's.  

Soon we will be "blessed" with a budget deal along with an MTA deal that helps no one but yet the grandstanding politicians and their friends in the media who gobble every morsel from these intellectually gifted pillars of virtue. After November look for whoever is elected to make phony promises about unity while they use the line of "divide and conquer". Please understand that in my 47 years of voting come this June, I have never seen anything like this and I have seen a lot of unfit officials running and getting elected to office during this time. 

[QM1to6Ave]

Like what? You wanted Joe Lhota? Or Catsimatidis? The clown show doesn't fix much.

Bill Thompson is a good candidate. The man knows how to work with both sides of the aisle and get sensible legislation passed. Too bad he cen never quite pick up the media exposure he needs

[Interested Rider]

The emperor killed any chance that Bill Thompson had at becoming mayor as the current occupant would have had to face a run off which I believe the current occupant would have lost. Bill Thompson was and always is a gentleman who would have been a great mayor for our city as he understands the problems and would have worked for the best interests of the city. He is extremely well versed in how to handle the various constituencies that vie for influence and would have done in my opinion, an outstanding job.

We would not be in the position that we are in terms of this city today, had Bill Thompson would have been elected mayor instead of who is there now

[LTA1992]

For those who kept saying the crime is going down in the subway because of the "Stats" despite the attacks happening more than before doesn't have a clue what they're saying. Try being a victim of one and I bet your attitudes will change.

A few years ago, someone tried to rob me. But I'm poor AF, so it was a fail on their part. My views are the same though.

 

You haven't lived through the 70s and 80s. You have no clue what real crime is. My parents and anyone else who was around during those years will tell you the same.