AECOM Proposes Subway Extension to Red Hook as Part of Development Project

[Around the Horn]

Construction and engineering firm proposes creating a new Brooklyn neighborhood the size of Battery Park City

 

AECOM envisions building as many as 45,000 units of housing along the Red Hook waterfront and extending the No. 1 train to the area

 

An interesting proposal... Throw in a Governor's Island station similar to Roosevelt Island on the and I'm on board...

 

 

One of the city's largest construction and engineering firms is floating a plan to transform a huge swath of the Red Hook waterfront into a residential neighborhood with a new subway connection, acres of parkland and waterfront-flood protections that would revitalize and protect the low-lying neighborhood from storms and future sea-level rise.

AECOM envisions building as many as 45,000 units of housing, much of it in new residential towers that would rise on underutilized Brooklyn sites owned by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and the city. The company plans to unveil the proposal Tuesday at the NYU Rudin Center for Transportation. Under the preliminary plan, proceeds from the sale or long-term lease of the land to developers, as well as other funds generated from revenue streams such as real estate taxes, would go toward upgrading the neighborhood's infrastructure, which includes extending the No. 1 train from lower Manhattan via a new tunnel under the harbor to the Brooklyn area. AECOM's plan also involves creating three new subway stations, one at Atlantic Basin next to the container terminal, another at the Red Hook Houses, one of Brooklyn's largest public-housing complexes, and a No. 1 train station that would connect to the F and G subway lines at Fourth Avenue.

"We have to recognize that growth is necessary to create a waterfront that people can use, affordable housing and a mass-transit connection to a neighborhood where one doesn't exist," said Chris Ward, a senior vice president at AECOM and a former top executive at the Port Authority, who helped craft the plan.

If the project comes to fruition, a new residential neighborhood almost double the size of Battery Park City and several times as large as Hudson Yards on Manhattan's far West Side—the biggest development project currently underway in the city—would be created.

The plan calls for constructing more than a dozen towers that would contain as many as 45,000 apartments, a quarter of which would be set aside for affordable housing. The new towers would sit on multiple sites: two adjacent waterfront compounds, the 80-acre Red Hook Container Terminal owned by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, a similar-sized adjacent parcel of city-owned waterfront along Columbia Street, the southern edge of the neighborhood overlooking the Gowanus Bay and unused land located at Red Hook Houses. Development at the public-housing complex could fund improvements to Red Hook Houses, AECOM said, but it is also likely to be controversial. Recent proposals to create additional residential space in public-housing has prompted outcry from residents and local officials.

"As the city expects another million residents in the next decade where will they all live?" Ward said. "This is a canvas where we can create tens of thousands of housing units without pushing people further to the periphery of the city."

AECOM acknowledges that its plan lacks key details, including how much the development and infrastructure would cost, how much revenue it would generate and how to coordinate a neighborhood-wide redevelopment on land parcels that are controlled by several different stakeholders with potentially varying objectives. But the company outlined three different scenarios for the Red Hook project. Two of the cases would provide funding for a subway extension to varying degrees, however, AECOM acknowledged that other funding sources would be necessary.

The firm predicted that the creation of 25 million square feet of new residential space would be enough to fund 2.5 miles of waterfront protection measures, 6,250 affordable housing units, and generate $50 million of annual tax revenue for the city, but not enough to pay for a subway-line extension. A 35 million-square-foot residential development would finance 4.5 miles of coastal protection (enough to protect the entire Red Hook waterfront), 3 miles of streetscape improvements, 50 acres of new park space and create 8,750 affordable housing units. A project of that size would generate $90 million of revenue for the city and would partially pay for a subway extension. While a 45 million-square-foot project would create 11,250 units of affordable housing and the same level of coastal protection and fund 5.7 miles of streetscape improvements, 100 acres of new park space and would fund the bulk of a subway extension. This scenario would generate $130 million in annual revenue for the city.

"This is meant to be a starting point for a conversation," Ward said, who estimated the cost of a No.1 train station extension at about $3 billion.

[P3F]

This is interesting.

[Cait Sith]

to Red Hook....?

[MysteriousBtrain]

to Red Hook....?

 

Yeah.... If we can't get a 2 Av line out of Manhattan (63 St don't count), then there will be no to Brooklyn.

[Daniel The Cool]

Wait what?

[Around the Horn]

If you read the article, with the volume of housing planned AECOM can pay for the subway extension with just tax revenues...

 

I'm still waiting for more details

[RailRunRob]

If you read the article, with the volume of housing planned AECOM can pay for the subway extension with just tax revenues...

 

I'm still waiting for more details

Interesting. 

[Javier]

Hahahahaha...oh wait their serious...

[Lance]

I think they're greatly overstating the revenue they'll receive from the new apartment complexes. Either that or they're simply dreaming, but if they're willing to pony up the money for the extension on their own, that's their prerogative.

[bobtehpanda]

If you read the article, with the volume of housing planned AECOM can pay for the subway extension with just tax revenues...

 

I'm still waiting for more details

 

Just like how Hudson Yards totally paid for itself through tax revenues, right?

 

I much prefer the London method, where developers just front the money instead of going through tax gymnastics to fund their real estate transport investments...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And what happens when the is knocked out? Maybe they'll get special treatment because they're not in Upper Manhattan or the Bronx...   

[Jdog14]

And what happens when the is knocked out? Maybe they'll get special treatment because they're not in Upper Manhattan or the Bronx...   

 

Continue the same commute they do now. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Continue the same commute they do now. 

I guess my point flew over your head.  If the train is the only option, those people will be screwed when it is shut down. As it stands now, the residents in Red Hook are already up in arms about their limited transportation options. In Upper Manhattan and the Bronx when the is knocked out those people cram onto the local bus or make their way to the sardine can .  Not sure what the folks would do in Red Hook though.  

[RailRunRob]

I guess my point flew over your head.  If the train is the only option, those people will be screwed when it is shut down. As it stands now, the residents in Red Hook are already up in arms about their limited transportation options. In Upper Manhattan and the Bronx when the is knocked out those people cram onto the local bus or make their way to the sardine can .  Not sure what the folks would do in Red Hook though.  

Shuttle people to the Can't be any longer then 242nd to 207th.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Shuttle people to the Can't be any longer then 242nd to 207th.

Well I attended a meeting on Ferry service for Brooklyn, and there were quite a few residents from Red Hook there that seemed to make it clear that they had very limited transportation options.  Quite frankly I've seen those shuttle situations along Broadway while on the express bus and they don't look good at all. The buses are packed to the rafters.  I would think that in addition to the train, you would need other improved transportation options such as the B71 making a return or some other buses running more frequently.  Perhaps enhanced ferry service could help too.

[RailRunRob]

Well I attended a meeting on Ferry service for Brooklyn, and there were quite a few residents from Red Hook there that seemed to make it clear that they had very limited transportation options.  Quite frankly I've seen those shuttle situations along Broadway while on the express bus and they don't look good at all. The buses are packed to the rafters.  I would think that in addition to the train, you would need other improved transportation options such as the B71 making a return or some other buses running more frequently.  Perhaps enhanced ferry service could help too.

More connections are always good. I miss the B71 used to use it to Parkslope ridership wasn't too high tho. The B61 connects to and plus the B57. You don't think it's covered plus shuttle?. I do understand the area pushing for a direct connect to Manhattan or more rapid. So might a bit different from Riverdale to Upper Manhattan. Being muti coverage is 230th and below.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

More connections are always good. I miss the B71 used to use it to Parkslope ridership wasn't too high tho. The B61 connects to and plus the B57. You don't think it's covered plus shuttle?. I do understand the area pushing for a direct connect to Manhattan or more rapid. So might a bit different from Riverdale to Upper Manhattan. Being muti coverage is 230th and below.  

I'm just stating what residents who live there have stated, which is that they are isolated and cut off. Riverdale shouldn't even be in this conversation, as there is no subway there, but I will say that the bus to subway set up SUCKS royally.  More and more people piling on the local buses when there aren't enough of them to begin with.  If Metro-North or the express bus didn't exist, I wouldn't live there as that bus to subway nonsense is a rat race and gets old fast, so those people in Red Hook have a tough commute despite it appearing that they have tons of options.  Unless there is a direct subway there, the bus to subway set up IMO doesn't cut it. Perhaps the only benefit in Red Hook is that they don't have the hilly terrain to deal with, but they are so far away from a subway that the walk in the winter time must be brutal being so close to the water with the wind etc. as some residents noted, even to get to the bus depending on their location, so it would be interesting to see where the would terminate.  I do know that they are fighting tooth and nail to have the new ferry service accommodate more residents in the area that currently have limited options.

[RailRunRob]

I'm just stating what residents who live there have stated, which is that they are isolated and cut off. Riverdale shouldn't even be in this conversation, as there is no subway there, but I will say that the bus to subway set up SUCKS royally.  More and more people piling on the local buses when there aren't enough of them to begin with.  If Metro-North or the express bus didn't exist, I wouldn't live there as that bus to subway nonsense is a rat race and gets old fast, so those people in Red Hook have a tough commute despite it appearing that they have tons of options.  Unless there is a direct subway there, the bus to subway set up IMO doesn't cut it. Perhaps the only benefit in Red Hook is that they don't have the hilly terrain to deal with, but they are so far away from a subway that the walk in the winter time must be brutal being so close to the water with the wind etc. as some residents noted, even to get to the bus depending on their location, so it would be interesting to see where the would terminate.  I do know that they are fighting tooth and nail to have the new ferry service accommodate more residents in the area that currently have limited options.

I was just stating the 2 miles between 242nd in whatever neighborhood makes you feel safe saying and 207th street in upper Manhattan insert your name there as well. It's just a hair over a mile from 9th Smith street to the waterfront. .6 miles from Carroll to waterfront. and at it's longest 1.4 miles from Bread-street to the point being if the  came to the area it would be in the guidelines of what's standard in other areas for a shuttle. Whether you feel that's acceptable that's story for another day. Understand when you deal with people and get feedback it's all perspective not really a tangible way to gauge perspective besides data. One minute to me might be completely different to someone else depending on their view. I see two bus lines that connect to all the major subway lines sure it'd be nice to have more and by all means they should. I could name a few more area's less connected stat wise is all I'm saying.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I was just stating the 2 miles between 242nd in whatever neighborhood makes you feel safe saying and 207th street in upper Manhattan insert your name there as well. It's just a hair over a mile from 9th Smith street to the waterfront. .6 miles from Carroll to waterfront. and at it's longest 1.4 miles from Bread-street to the point being if the  came to the area it would be in the guidelines of what's standard in other areas for a shuttle. Whether you feel that's acceptable that's story for another day. Understand when you deal with people and get feedback it's all perspective not really a tangible way to gauge perspective besides data. One minute to me might be completely different to someone else depending on their view. I see two bus lines that connect to all the major subway lines sure it'd be nice to have more and by all means they should. I could name a few more area's less connected stat wise is all I'm saying.

My point was adding thousands of residents to that area would definitely necessitate better transportation, and having just the doesn't seem like enough.  Bus lines are fine, but I would think that another subway line would be needed.

[Around the Horn]

The B71 coming back should be a given. As for the funding, it sounds like they expect to cover at least half of the costs, depending on the units sold and acreage sold to developers.

 

I'm still waiting for further details.

[RailRunRob]

My point was adding thousands of residents to that area would definitely necessitate better transportation, and having just the doesn't seem like enough.  Bus lines are fine, but I would think that another subway line would be needed.

I understand the population part I don't how such a small area would necessitate two new subway lines? There's like 7-8 blocks width between Smith and the waterfront and from 14 to 7 blocks long from west to east south of I278. Seems a bit excessive to me at least. 3 buses with the B71 back possibly the There going to get Ferry service that's low hanging fruit and what seems like a Lightrail. Compared to the Red Hook of yesteryear seem's pretty bright me. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I understand the population part I don't how such a small area would necessitate two new subway lines? There's like 7-8 blocks width between Smith and the waterfront and from 14 to 7 blocks long from west to east south of I278. Seems a bit excessive to me at least. 3 buses with the B71 back possibly the There going to get Ferry service that's low hanging fruit and what seems like a Lightrail. Compared to the Red Hook of yesteryear seem's pretty bright me. 

Depending on where the ferry service will be, it may or may not be beneficial to most of Red Hook.  

[RailRunRob]

Depending on where the ferry service will be, it may or may not be beneficial to most of Red Hook.  

Define not beneficial? Not walkable?

[Around the Horn]

Since we are dealing in hypotheticals, what about having the go though Red Hook and then down the Sunset Park waterfront, instead of the BQX and then into Staten Island?

[RailRunRob]

Since we are dealing in hypotheticals, what about having the go though Red Hook and then down the Sunset Park waterfront, instead of the BQX and then into Staten Island? 

Anything's possible if the money's there. I guess my question is more on capacity both on 7th and Broadway and the limitations on IRT cars themselves. How would you address that?