Look who's back: Port Authority to release study in favor of 7 to New Jersey

[paulrivera]

I say if the Port Authority wants to pay for construction and equipment costs *and* if we can get Federal money for this project *and* if we have Hudson County pay MTA taxes after such service starts, *then* and only then would I support a extension into New Jersey.

 

I think Wallyhorse was on to something when he suggested extending the line instead. However, while it would be less expensive to build (Hoboken is almost directly a straight shot from 14th Street) it might not be too useful since the L doesn't go to Midtown.

[Cait Sith]

I had to double check to make sure you were the one who wrote this post. The amount of misinformation has to be a forum record. 

 

First off, the Port Authority was never going to "move" the PABT to Jersey. This was ruled out almost immediately. However, the Port Authority was considering splitting the  PABT in two, with a smaller terminal in Manhattan and another terminal in Jersey, with the being the primary artery between the two, and providing a way to go from the Jersey terminal to Midtown Manhattan (which by the way, is already part of the (7)'s contra-flow peak ridership) and to provide a way to get from Jersey to the new Hudson Yards district.

 

I do however, agree that this plan is flawed and the Queens pols will be all over it, and may be the group that shuts this down, and rightfully so.

 

This plan won't noticeably decrease bus congestion, and you're right about this again, however add a Park and Ride facility at the Secaucus station and you may decrease overall congestion in the Lincoln tunnel and approaches.

 

Then, we get to the Hudson Yards portion of your post which is the most egregious by far.

 

"As for 10th Avenue Station, I've been against it before, and I'm still against it. There's literally no point in having that station especially since people just go to 8th Avenue or 6th Avenue for their trains. 34th Street has been a literal waste of money."

 

If you're going to have the PABT expand further west in Manhattan instead of expand into New Jersey, then a 10th Avenue station is a requirement, and maybe just maybe, you'll cut down on the congestion in the passageway between the PABT and Times Square station if there is a train station at the 9th Avenue end. Then consider that 10th Avenue and 41st Street is one of the most populous area's of the Far West Side, soon to be surpassed by Hudson Yards.

 

Speaking of that, how in the world is 34th Street automatically a waste of money, if the buildings are still under construction, and the whole project was clearly future proofed? To put it simply, I expect better posts than this from you.

 

Now, I will agree this extension is not the best proposal out there, and is not necessary. An expansion of PABT further west and building the 10th Avenue station (with a direct exit to the 9th Avenue end of the PABT) is a much better use of resources and frankly what I expected the Port Authority to propose. 

 

Extending the to Laurelton should get priority over this and the to Red Hook, and if I had to choose between the to Secaucus and the to Red Hook, the is getting my vote.

 

As for whether the should be extended further, i think it should go down to at least the Chelsea Market, if not all the way to Tribeca.

 

You might want to re-read what I said. Because I'm very sure that you just skimmed through what I've said.

 

1. I never said that they should/are moving it to New Jersey, I said they are better off building a terminal in Weehawken to supplement PABT. Their idea of sending buses to Secaucus just for one subway line is still a joke because what they originally wanted to do is send half of the PABT traffic to Secaucus.....that's still a lot of buses. If you've ever seen how many buses enter in and out of the port authority during the rush hour, try cutting that by half and that still wouldn't matter. That's what they've expressed previously. The can't even handle that on its own.

 

2. Secaucus is technically a park and ride, and has park & rides 5-10 minutes away from the train station, which get full really fast. You can't add that much more park and rides to accommodate a ridership base that will fill that up even before the height of either rush hours. And judging by that alone, it's an indication that you do not have a clue as to how bad it gets during the rush hour for the PABT.

 

3. As for 34th Street, even some of the folks who work at the offices of the MTA said that the station put a negative blemish on the agency, which is not a good look at all. That station was better off being put off for another year or two because the only times the station ever gets the ridership the MTA wanted, is during conventions, in which that station has been only useful for. But of course, the politicians wanted it done.

 

The is better off being extended to Chelsea Piers, than going over to New Jersey. If a subway extension is to be made, make it beneficial for New Yorkers, not for a whole other state...and until the Port Authority decides on a location as to where to build the new terminal(which they haven't yet), then the talk of a 10th Avenue Station can be discussed, but until then....it's not needed(yet).

[Around the Horn]

Okay, then. I misinterpreted that one sentence and misunderstood the entire post because of it. My apologies.

[Cait Sith]

Okay, then. I misinterpreted that one sentence and misunderstood the entire post because of it. My apologies.

Just an FYI, I wasn't trying to come off that post sounding like a dick(in case anything was taken the wrong way), and my wording wasn't also the best.

 

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

[Around the Horn]

Just an FYI, I wasn't trying to come off that post sounding like a dick(in case anything was taken the wrong way)

 

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

No, it wasn't an issue

[Cait Sith]

My approach is always anythings possible until proven otherwise or ruled out. Most time those restrictions come in the form financial blocks some are technology and what's possible at the current. My take from this is. Regional population is projected for moderate or better growth over the next 20-40 years. That's my starting point If I know that I'd have to ask does this mean I have to accommodate more buses coming into the City proper? With the new PA being designed now with available space to build and this bus station having to last 70-80 years is it possible to future proof the PABT? Larger population more buses can the Lincoln handle that? If not can you build a extra tube? Whats the damage to the surrounding area? Expanding the feeder routes to the tunnel to handle the extra cars and buses. Already the idea is plausible if this what I need to do meet demand. Reroute/create some buses routes to a new Station on the Jersey side make the transfer easy as possible. A good amount of riders from the report are already going to East or take the Subway on the Manhattan side. What's the difference if your adding time to the persons commute? Adding rolling stock and stations that's the easy part. If you have to build a tube for cars and dig up highly populated areas what's the issue with the ? Can't be cost. Why wouldn't it benefit if is cutting travel time giving direct access to the regions Business core?

My thing is that they're better off either extending the PATH, or restructuring the railroads to meet with the demand that could happen if they really wanted to go through with an idea of sending train service to NYC. A subway extension would only be a band-aid to the more bigger problems the Northeast Corridor and the entire NJ bus network already suffers through. The ARC tunnel that was originally proposed would be more beneficial to everyone since it would help increase capacity going into Penn Station. A subway extension would have more cons than pros.

 

Considering that NJ Transit already has passes that works on both buses and trains(not sure of the neighboring agencies), folks who have those passes can get an easy transfer to the trains to go into Penn Station, which is a plus.

 

The Port Authority still has yet to decide on a new terminal location, so some of the other questions shouldn't be asked until they do decide on a place to build the terminal.

[QM1to6Ave]

This may be a bit crazy, but could the arc tunnel be built with an extra level for subway or path trains, similar to how the 63rd st tunnel was meant for LIRR and subway on different levels?

[46Dover]

I don't think any Jersey commuters are going to want to give up a one seat ride into Manhattan. Speaking as a bus operator that goes into the city every day.

 

Was anything mentioned about Greyhound, Peter Pan, or any other long distance company for that matter?

[bobtehpanda]

This may be a bit crazy, but could the arc tunnel be built with an extra level for subway or path trains, similar to how the 63rd st tunnel was meant for LIRR and subway on different levels?

 

The problem would then be where exactly the subway level could go, because unlike 63rd St which is a bit far from any other infrastructure, the tunnels would dump you into the hive of tunnels consisting of the Lincoln Tunnel, the West Side Yard and the Penn Station throat.

[Wallyhorse]

I say if the Port Authority wants to pay for construction and equipment costs *and* if we can get Federal money for this project *and* if we have Hudson County pay MTA taxes after such service starts, *then* and only then would I support a extension into New Jersey.

 

I think Wallyhorse was on to something when he suggested extending the line instead. However, while it would be less expensive to build (Hoboken is almost directly a straight shot from 14th Street) it might not be too useful since the L doesn't go to Midtown.

The idea is, in Manhattan, riders from Manhattan would be able to connect to just about every line other than the or in Manhattan (and the and of course can be connected to in Brooklyn).  Hoboken being a straight shot on 14th Street makes this worthwhile as long as the can get far enough deep before hitting the ocean (as 10th Avenue is the westernmost such at 14th).

 

As many are looking for the east side as it is, I'm sure a lot of riders who would use an from New Jersey (unless they are where they can use the 53rd Street stations on the or  ) would transfer to the Lex or Broadway lines at Union Square (depending on which direction they are going).  

[biGC323232]

You might want to re-read what I said. Because I'm very sure that you just skimmed through what I've said.

 

1. I never said that they should/are moving it to New Jersey, I said they are better off building a terminal in Weehawken to supplement PABT. Their idea of sending buses to Secaucus just for one subway line is still a joke because what they originally wanted to do is send half of the PABT traffic to Secaucus.....that's still a lot of buses. If you've ever seen how many buses enter in and out of the port authority during the rush hour, try cutting that by half and that still wouldn't matter. That's what they've expressed previously. The can't even handle that on its own.

 

2. Secaucus is technically a park and ride, and has park & rides 5-10 minutes away from the train station, which get full really fast. You can't add that much more park and rides to accommodate a ridership base that will fill that up even before the height of either rush hours. And judging by that alone, it's an indication that you do not have a clue as to how bad it gets during the rush hour for the PABT.

 

3. As for 34th Street, even some of the folks who work at the offices of the MTA said that the station put a negative blemish on the agency, which is not a good look at all. That station was better off being put off for another year or two because the only times the station ever gets the ridership the MTA wanted, is during conventions, in which that station has been only useful for. But of course, the politicians wanted it done.

 

The is better off being extended to Chelsea Piers, than going over to New Jersey. If a subway extension is to be made, make it beneficial for New Yorkers, not for a whole other state...and until the Port Authority decides on a location as to where to build the new terminal(which they haven't yet), then the talk of a 10th Avenue Station can be discussed, but until then....it's not needed(yet).

I Agree....The   will not help anything going to secaucus...It will help a ton to the piers tho

[Cait Sith]

I don't think any Jersey commuters are going to want to give up a one seat ride into Manhattan. Speaking as a bus operator that goes into the city every day.

 

Was anything mentioned about Greyhound, Peter Pan, or any other long distance company for that matter?

 

I agree. ESPECIALLY those Route 9 commuters...they're adamant about everything when it comes to their commute.

 

The idea is, in Manhattan, riders from Manhattan would be able to connect to just about every line other than the or in Manhattan (and the and of course can be connected to in Brooklyn).  Hoboken being a straight shot on 14th Street makes this worthwhile as long as the can get far enough deep before hitting the ocean (as 10th Avenue is the westernmost such at 14th).

 

As many are looking for the east side as it is, I'm sure a lot of riders who would use an from New Jersey (unless they are where they can use the 53rd Street stations on the or  ) would transfer to the Lex or Broadway lines at Union Square (depending on which direction they are going).  

 

Extending the would cost a lot more than extending the , though.

[Wallyhorse]

I agree. ESPECIALLY those Route 9 commuters...they're adamant about everything when it comes to their commute.

 

 

Extending the would cost a lot more than extending the , though.

Interesting if that's the case given the is a near-straight shot to Hoboken, plus it likely would spark lengthening ALL of the platforms on the (and likely the entire Eastern Division) to handle 10-car. 600' trains.  You also likely would see platforms put in on the express tracks on the 6th Avenue lines at 14th Street so the and could stop there with the going to New Jersey (there were provisions for this put into those tunnels when they were built in the 1960's). 

[Around the Horn]

Interesting if that's the case given the is a near-straight shot to Hoboken, plus it likely would spark lengthening ALL of the platforms on the (and likely the entire Eastern Division) to handle 10-car. 600' trains.  You also likely would see platforms put in on the express tracks on the 6th Avenue lines at 14th Street so the and could stop there with the going to New Jersey (there were provisions for this put into those tunnels when they were built in the 1960's). 

 

As a daily train rider nowadays, I really like my straight shot to 34th Street and I'm sure the majority of and train riders agree.

[CenSin]

As a daily train rider nowadays, I really like my straight shot to 34th Street and I'm sure the majority of and train riders agree.

Well, he has a point that the missing connections should be built. But his assessment of how likely that is to happen is very off. It’s probably not important for the and since the main benefit is convenience. For all of the Central Park West stops, there is the , , and . For 6 Avenue, there is the and . For stops in Brooklyn, there is the and (or if you are willing to take the slow route through the bowels of lower Manhattan). The only stops that necessitate a 3-legged trip are Grand Street, all the stops along Grand Concourse, and all the stops along West End that aren’t covered by the . The folks traveling to/from the Brighton Line’s express stops may be dismayed that their trip using the will take a few more minutes than the , but the will run more frequently, and the average time waiting for a train will be less. Plus, a that stops at 14 Street will also be “local” in Manhattan stopping at West 4 Street–Washington Square (8 Street–NYU) and Broadway–Lafayette Street (Prince Street). Maybe there is a legitimate market for trips such as between the Grand Concourse and Canarsie lines which serve African-American communities. I have friends who travel between the two, but they should really be taking the anyway since it’s a straight shot down to 14 Street–Union Square from the Bronx. The West End Line is full of folks who don’t give a damn about what goes on along the .

[CDTA]

I think you guys are overlooking some things. For starters, the PABT would be a likely funder (although I doubt they would pay for maintenance), and they have money to spare, with their near balanced budget, and need to spend money on capital projects so they don't turn a profit. It might actually save them money anyways, as it can't cost more than a few billion, which alone comes in under the projected cost of the PABT rebuilding, forgetting the cost of the new tube the Lincoln Tunnel will inevitably need, or the depot for bus parking.

Second, this wouldn't be used for the Route 9 commuters, or the buses coming from Rockland County. It would likely be used to re-direct the massive amounts of buses from Weehawken and West New York and the like, and maybe even places like Paterson, which have very frequent service to PABT, even outside of rush hours. It could even be used for intercity buses, since there'd be a subway (not to be confused with a train, as the off-peak frequencies of the 7 are vital this to work) that connects to basically every line in the city.

There's also the added benefit of re-directing Lincoln Tunnel cars AND buses, and the ability to re-direct buses that currently feed into PATH to the new terminal, to add capacity to PATH, which may not be needed now (as the PA is extending all the platforms and trains AGAIN), but will definitely be needed in the future as Jersey City continues to get denser, and the density expansions continues westward. This also makes things easier for Main Line commuters who work on 42nd Street, but that number I'd imagine isn't very high. And yes, this means the 7 cannot be extended elsewhere, but where would the 7 be able to be extended to that can't just as easily be served by the L? The tunnel is currently built up to 25th St, so even if the L were extended to the south, we're still talking only 12 blocks.

[P3F]

They should connect I-495 at the Queens Midtown Tunnel to the Lincoln Tunnel so that the masses of cars going between Queens and New Jersey do not have to clog city streets.

[RailRunRob]

My thing is that they're better off either extending the PATH, or restructuring the railroads to meet with the demand that could happen if they really wanted to go through with an idea of sending train service to NYC. A subway extension would only be a band-aid to the more bigger problems the Northeast Corridor and the entire NJ bus network already suffers through. The ARC tunnel that was originally proposed would be more beneficial to everyone since it would help increase capacity going into Penn Station. A subway extension would have more cons than pros.

 

Considering that NJ Transit already has passes that works on both buses and trains(not sure of the neighboring agencies), folks who have those passes can get an easy transfer to the trains to go into Penn Station, which is a plus.

 

The Port Authority still has yet to decide on a new terminal location, so some of the other questions shouldn't be asked until they do decide on a place to build the terminal.

You make great points.  The PABT has to the grow more people more buses and current connections to New Jersey have to grow along with the regional as well. The 3 existing aren't going to cut it. Anyway we cut it that has to be solved.

[RailRunRob]

The problem would then be where exactly the subway level could go, because unlike 63rd St which is a bit far from any other infrastructure, the tunnels would dump you into the hive of tunnels consisting of the Lincoln Tunnel, the West Side Yard and the Penn Station throat.

The Gateway seems to be using the ARC alignment which interestingly the extension was based on or lines up with. The is already well under the yards and out of the way. Dual layer seems feasible with Subway, in this case, taking the lower level and The Gateway on the upper. 

[RailRunRob]

I think you guys are overlooking some things. For starters, the PABT would be a likely funder (although I doubt they would pay for maintenance), and they have money to spare, with their near balanced budget, and need to spend money on capital projects so they don't turn a profit. It might actually save them money anyways, as it can't cost more than a few billion, which alone comes in under the projected cost of the PABT rebuilding, forgetting the cost of the new tube the Lincoln Tunnel will inevitably need, or the depot for bus parking.

Second, this wouldn't be used for the Route 9 commuters, or the buses coming from Rockland County. It would likely be used to re-direct the massive amounts of buses from Weehawken and West New York and the like, and maybe even places like Paterson, which have very frequent service to PABT, even outside of rush hours. It could even be used for intercity buses, since there'd be a subway (not to be confused with a train, as the off-peak frequencies of the 7 are vital this to work) that connects to basically every line in the city.

There's also the added benefit of re-directing Lincoln Tunnel cars AND buses, and the ability to re-direct buses that currently feed into PATH to the new terminal, to add capacity to PATH, which may not be needed now (as the PA is extending all the platforms and trains AGAIN), but will definitely be needed in the future as Jersey City continues to get denser, and the density expansions continues westward. This also makes things easier for Main Line commuters who work on 42nd Street, but that number I'd imagine isn't very high. And yes, this means the 7 cannot be extended elsewhere, but where would the 7 be able to be extended to that can't just as easily be served by the L? The tunnel is currently built up to 25th St, so even if the L were extended to the south, we're still talking only 12 blocks.

Correct! There's limited room and capacity. 

[RailRunRob]

I don't think any Jersey commuters are going to want to give up a one seat ride into Manhattan. Speaking as a bus operator that goes into the city every day.

 

Was anything mentioned about Greyhound, Peter Pan, or any other long distance company for that matter?

But there a lot of riders that still have to take the Subway on the Manhattan side. Depending on the destination what would it matter if you got on the Subway on the NJ/NY side. Two seat-ride is a two-seat ride. 

[bobtehpanda]

The Gateway seems to be using the ARC alignment which interestingly the extension was based on or lines up with. The is already well under the yards and out of the way. Dual layer seems feasible with Subway, in this case, taking the lower level and The Gateway on the upper. 

 

 

 

 

It's impossible to make a tunnel that is both low enough for the and high enough for Gateway; the is over 10 stories deep where the Lincoln tunnel is.

I think you guys are overlooking some things. For starters, the PABT would be a likely funder (although I doubt they would pay for maintenance), and they have money to spare, with their near balanced budget, and need to spend money on capital projects so they don't turn a profit. It might actually save them money anyways, as it can't cost more than a few billion, which alone comes in under the projected cost of the PABT rebuilding, forgetting the cost of the new tube the Lincoln Tunnel will inevitably need, or the depot for bus parking.

 

PABT barely has enough for a new terminal, let alone enough for two terminals and a subway (which is essentially going to be what this is.) The Port Authority budget is only balanced because tolls have outpaced inflation for a while now.

 

Why would the lincoln need a new tube? The XBL is already dumping more buses than PABT can handle. Park the buses at Javits if you must (it's not like those lot spaces there get used)

[RailRunRob]

It's impossible to make a tunnel that is both low enough for the and high enough for Gateway; the is over 10 stories deep where the Lincoln tunnel is.

 

PABT barely has enough for a new terminal, let alone enough for two terminals and a subway (which is essentially going to be what this is.) The Port Authority budget is only balanced because tolls have outpaced inflation for a while now.

 

Why would the lincoln need a new tube? The XBL is already dumping more buses than PABT can handle. Park the buses at Javits if you must (it's not like those lot spaces there get used)

It's not impossible. You have 1,600-1,700 feet if you count the break off just south of the station to the waterline between 27-28th street. Track level is 120ft at a 2.5% upgrade that's about 75-80 feet hitting the waterline the current Penn Hudson tubes are at about 75-80 feet. Gateway should be about the same if you have data that points otherwise let me know. As far as the PABT having bearly enough never have I seen a project of this scale have a price tag variance as this one. $3.7 Billion to $15.6 B wow! If you built the two at 3.7 Billion you'd have 8.2 B left so let's not count pockets yet they'll make the money happen if they want to they always do. Capacity the plan the new PABT is 160 gates with up to 7 buses per gate per hour = 1,120 per hour the question is what's the capacity for the Lincoln Tunnel? I495? With extra bus plus extra cars for the growing region  in 2025,30,40 even autonomous has limits.

[46Dover]

It's impossible to make a tunnel that is both low enough for the and high enough for Gateway; the is over 10 stories deep where the Lincoln tunnel is.

 

 

PABT barely has enough for a new terminal, let alone enough for two terminals and a subway (which is essentially going to be what this is.) The Port Authority budget is only balanced because tolls have outpaced inflation for a while now.

 

Why would the lincoln need a new tube? The XBL is already dumping more buses than PABT can handle. Park the buses at Javits if you must (it's not like those lot spaces there get used)

In fairness, how many of those buses are PA bound? For example, , charters, MegaBus, Bolt? And another thing, some of those companies that serve Port Authority (a Decamp, Lakeland, Suburban Transit) have routes outside the PA throughout Manhattan, so you have to take those into consideration too

[RailRunRob]

They should connect I-495 at the Queens Midtown Tunnel to the Lincoln Tunnel so that the masses of cars going between Queens and New Jersey do not have to clog city streets. 

What's the cost to the surrounding area?