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Lance

Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure

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1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Are we saying that middle class workers and citizens are "unwashed masses" who cause trouble for rich people, and the donors who fear them are why our politicians here in NY do not care about public transportation? Geez, this state's politics are so messed up big time.

To many of the elite, they are "unwashed masses."  They think ALL of them could be threats, and that is a big problem.

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With the original 3 year closure option, how come there would be no rail service between Bedford Avenue and Lorimer St? Seems odd to do it like that.

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5 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

With the original 3 year closure option, how come there would be no rail service between Bedford Avenue and Lorimer St? Seems odd to do it like that.

They were concerned about platform crowding at Bedford. You obviously couldn't run the whole line on a 20 min headway, so they would have had to turn 1/2 or 2/3 of all trains at Bedford...meaning folks would be waiting on the platform. They decided the better thing to do was to make the tunnel a shuttle for Bedford and tell the rest of the line to take a hike. This is one of the many reasons full closures are better...

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On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 6:48 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

To answer your first question, he didn't bring it up any longer because he doesn't care about NYC residents. If he did care, then he would've been at that first tunnel tour in March 2016 and bring up that solution there instead of waiting now and confusing people in Brooklyn and Manhattan.

To answer your second question, they waited this longer due to the need to find out the actual damage, come up with a strategy to fix the tunnel, plan for robust alternatives for (L) line passengers, and fix up nearby subway lines to be in great condition to carry displaced riders. However, if they inspected every tunnel in June 2013 (and planned the Canarsie work immediately after that June inspection) instead of staggering the inspections over several years, this should've been the order the tunnels would be repaired:

  1. Montague (R) 
  2. Greenpoint (G) 
  3. Canarsie (L) 
  4. Steinway (7)
  5. 53rd Street (E)(M)
  6. Cranberry Street (A)(C)
  7. Clark Street (2)(3)
  8. Joralemon Street (4)(5)
  9. Rutgers Street (F)

That way, the most damaged tunnels would be fixed first instead of waiting. But nope, MTA does what is "best" for us.

I believe the Fix and Fortify closures were done in their present order based on the potential ridership impact and not just damage. It's just coincidence that the worst damage Montague tunnel was the least impactful in terms of ridership, hence why that was closed first. The (R) had a bunch of nearby alternatives when that tunnel was taken out of service in 2013. That isn't the case for the (L), hence the extended wait while contingencies were drawn up to mitigate a closure of that magnitude. Sure, it would've been better from an operations standpoint to get the Canarsie tunnel back to pre-Sandy conditions earlier than it currently is planned for, but getting several different agencies to come up with a beneficial plan to minimize the impact of the loss of the Canarsie line is not an easy process, especially when dealing with the great bureaucracy.

As for the comparisons to restoring (1) service after Sept. 11th, that was all about bouncing back from the tragedy of the attacks. It would've been the equivalent of leaving that empty pit where the Twin Towers stood. Also, a better comparison would've been to the initial restoration of (L) service on Nov. 8th, 2012 and a more apt comparison to the planned closure would be to the long-delayed restoration of (1) service at Cortlandt St.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Lance said:

I believe the Fix and Fortify closures were done in their present order based on the potential ridership impact and not just damage. It's just coincidence that the worst damage Montague tunnel was the least impactful in terms of ridership, hence why that was closed first. The (R) had a bunch of nearby alternatives when that tunnel was taken out of service in 2013. That isn't the case for the (L), hence the extended wait while contingencies were drawn up to mitigate a closure of that magnitude. Sure, it would've been better from an operations standpoint to get the Canarsie tunnel back to pre-Sandy conditions earlier than it currently is planned for, but getting several different agencies to come up with a beneficial plan to minimize the impact of the loss of the Canarsie line is not an easy process, especially when dealing with the great bureaucracy.

As for the comparisons to restoring (1) service after Sept. 11th, that was all about bouncing back from the tragedy of the attacks. It would've been the equivalent of leaving that empty pit where the Twin Towers stood. Also, a better comparison would've been to the initial restoration of (L) service on Nov. 8th, 2012 and a more apt comparison to the planned closure would be to the long-delayed restoration of (1) service at Cortlandt St.

Wasnt (1) service between Chambers and South Ferry suspended for a good 2 years? Because of flood damage?

Edited by Lawrence St

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On 1/5/2019 at 5:10 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Some of those donors probably would never want to have to deal with the "unwashed masses."  These types would likely fear their safety among such, especially if they sense the "unwashed masses" realize such are rich.  

 

True, but those who see their commutes become a lot longer would be upset and Cuomo thinks he needs those votes, particularly in New Jersey.  Rest of NYS may not care, but NYC votes count towards NYS. 

Who are these “donors” you keep speaking of? David Faber and Arthur Schwartz, 😆?

And by the way, NO ONE picks a presidential candidate solely (or even largely) on how their commute is affected!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Wasnt (1) service between Chambers and South Ferry suspended for a good 2 years? Because of flood damage?

Nope. After the attacks, the line was closed for just under a year, reopening on Sept. 8th, 2002. Post-Sandy, the South Ferry station was closed for nearly five years due to severe water damage, but aside from that, the line remained in service.

12 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Who are these “donors” you keep speaking of? David Faber and Arthur Schwartz, 😆?

And by the way, NO ONE picks a presidential candidate solely (or even largely) on how their commute is affected!

I don't know why you're bothering. It's "pols" this, "donors" that and "potential presidential run" every time something like this comes up.

Edited by Lance

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Posted (edited)

Yes, I really shouldn’t bother, but I really just couldn’t let that “donor” comment go without a flippant response about Faber and Schwartz. Same with the NJ drivers comment and my somewhat flippant response about extending the (L) to Jersey.

As for (1), my point in bringing it up was simply to show when there’s a will, there’s a way to get something done quickly, as they did when they got it back up and running to/from South Ferry in just under a year after 9/11. They didn’t let the “Great Bureaucracy” get in the way, like what seems to be happening with the (L) reconstruction. 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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22 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Who are these “donors” you keep speaking of? David Faber and Arthur Schwartz, 😆?

And by the way, NO ONE picks a presidential candidate solely (or even largely) on how their commute is affected!

Um......

See what happens when a transit agency sees its workers go on strike ONE WEEK before the Presidential Election.  That happened with SEPTA in Philly in 2016.  Many saw their commutes that week balloon to 3-4 hours each way in some cases and on top of that in some cases had to do an 80-100 hour work week to cover for others unable to get to work at all.  Many of these types, especially in Bucks County (northeast of Philly and the county most affected by the ballooned commutes)  among other places changed their votes from Hillary to Trump to get back at SEPTA workers for striking and that is what cost Hillary Pennsylvania in 2016, as the strike ended too late to change their minds.  

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1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Um......

See what happens when a transit agency sees its workers go on strike ONE WEEK before the Presidential Election.  That happened with SEPTA in Philly in 2016.  Many saw their commutes that week balloon to 3-4 hours each way in some cases and on top of that in some cases had to do an 80-100 hour work week to cover for others unable to get to work at all.  Many of these types, especially in Bucks County (northeast of Philly and the county most affected by the ballooned commutes)  among other places changed their votes from Hillary to Trump to get back at SEPTA workers for striking and that is what cost Hillary Pennsylvania in 2016, as the strike ended too late to change their minds.  

No, no, no you got it all wrong... The Philly area was strongly for Hillary.

She lost the rest of the state and Michigan and Wisconsin because she didn't campaign there in the last week.

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1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Um......

See what happens when a transit agency sees its workers go on strike ONE WEEK before the Presidential Election.  That happened with SEPTA in Philly in 2016.  Many saw their commutes that week balloon to 3-4 hours each way in some cases and on top of that in some cases had to do an 80-100 hour work week to cover for others unable to get to work at all.  Many of these types, especially in Bucks County (northeast of Philly and the county most affected by the ballooned commutes)  among other places changed their votes from Hillary to Trump to get back at SEPTA workers for striking and that is what cost Hillary Pennsylvania in 2016, as the strike ended too late to change their minds.  

Please elaborate on how a local election in any part of this country can cause a national candidate to suffer consequences because of a situation that candidate has nothing to do with. I, personally, think that a large portion of the American electorate is uneducated or under educated but your response amazes me. I think she lost the election because she was a poor candidate and voters wanted change. The eventual winner was, on the surface, a better promoter of his ideas although any real New Yorker from the man on the street to Mayor Bloomberg knew the truth. I was born during the Truman administration and have been following elections since Eisenhower passed the torch to JFK and have never heard an explanation like yours. That’s my opinion . Carry on.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Um......

See what happens when a transit agency sees its workers go on strike ONE WEEK before the Presidential Election.  That happened with SEPTA in Philly in 2016.  Many saw their commutes that week balloon to 3-4 hours each way in some cases and on top of that in some cases had to do an 80-100 hour work week to cover for others unable to get to work at all.  Many of these types, especially in Bucks County (northeast of Philly and the county most affected by the ballooned commutes)  among other places changed their votes from Hillary to Trump to get back at SEPTA workers for striking and that is what cost Hillary Pennsylvania in 2016, as the strike ended too late to change their minds.  

Um...Bucks County and (SEPTA) City Transit Division employees going on strike is not what cost Hillary Pennsylvania. This is what cost her Pennsylvania...

https://billypenn.com/2016/11/09/how-donald-trump-won-pennsylvania-then-the-white-house/

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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On 1/5/2019 at 5:10 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Some of those donors probably would never want to have to deal with the "unwashed masses."  These types would likely fear their safety among such, especially if they sense the "unwashed masses" realize such are rich.  

 

True, but those who see their commutes become a lot longer would be upset and Cuomo thinks he needs those votes, particularly in New Jersey.  Rest of NYS may not care, but NYC votes count towards NYS. 

and given this Governor only won a third term by the hair on his city-chin-chins**, he should try not to upset the largest constituency in the state (Kings County).

 

** - Why the Mother Goose reference? I mean this.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Please elaborate on how a local election in any part of this country can cause a national candidate to suffer consequences because of a situation that candidate has nothing to do with. I, personally, think that a large portion of the American electorate is uneducated or under educated but your response amazes me. I think she lost the election because she was a poor candidate and voters wanted change. The eventual winner was, on the surface, a better promoter of his ideas although any real New Yorker from the man on the street to Mayor Bloomberg knew the truth. I was born during the Truman administration and have been following elections since Eisenhower passed the torch to JFK and have never heard an explanation like yours. That’s my opinion . Carry on.

There are many who associate unions with the Dems.  A lot of those types who originally would have voted for Hillary changed to Trump because it was the one way in their minds they could get back at the unions that struck and in many cases caused their commutes to balloon to four hours in some cases, in other weeks their workweeks to in some cases double with no days off due to others unable to come in or a combination of both.  That strike like a BITTER taste in the mouths of many and that led to people changing their votes to Trump because they felt SEPTA workers should NOT have struck.  Enough voters changed to where Trump won. 

Adding: While much else is true, in the end, Hillary would STILL have won had it not been for the SEPTA strike.  That turned just enough additional voters to Trump and THAT turned out in the end to be the difference.

Edited by Wallyhorse

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Hillary won every county in SEPTA's service area by a large margin. I don't understand why you're continuing with this narrative.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

Hillary won every county in SEPTA's service area by a large margin. I don't understand why you're continuing with this narrative.

She did, however, she lost just enough votes to lose PA overall in those counties.  It's not just that you win sometimes, but by how BIG in certain areas.

She lost 30,000 votes in Bucks County ALONE and that area was probably the most adversely affected other than Philly itself by that strike. 

Edited by Wallyhorse

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Hillary Clinton's loss in Pennsylvania or any other state back in the 2016 election has absolutely nothing to do with the Canarsie repairs project. Please keep this to the actual topic at hand.

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1 hour ago, Lance said:

Hillary Clinton's loss in Pennsylvania or any other state back in the 2016 election has absolutely nothing to do with the Canarsie repairs project. Please keep this to the actual topic at hand.

Right.  My point was people's commute times, which IS related to this situation because with 14th Street restricted to buses, some people, especially drivers were facing massive increases in travel time from driving PLUS those directly affected by the (L) shutdown CAN affect who they vote for, which is what Cuomo likely is MUCH more concerned about than most people here seem to realize. 

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10 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Right.  My point was people's commute times, which IS related to this situation because with 14th Street restricted to buses, some people, especially drivers were facing massive increases in travel time from driving PLUS those directly affected by the (L) shutdown CAN affect who they vote for, which is what Cuomo likely is MUCH more concerned about than most people here seem to realize. 

Cuomo is quite clearly not doing this because he cares about New Yorkers. As the number of times the words "innovation" "unique" and "cutting-edge" were used in the presentation should make clear (esp. when compared to the glossing over of community impacts) the point of this was to pose him as a red-tape slashing, involved, tech-aware politician not afraid to challenge the "transportation-industrial complex." You're gonna respond with a different format of this same post (ten bucks says you have a google doc full of templates) but that's my two cents. 

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16 hours ago, RR503 said:

Cuomo is quite clearly not doing this because he cares about New Yorkers. As the number of times the words "innovation" "unique" and "cutting-edge" were used in the presentation should make clear (esp. when compared to the glossing over of community impacts) the point of this was to pose him as a red-tape slashing, involved, tech-aware politician not afraid to challenge the "transportation-industrial complex." You're gonna respond with a different format of this same post (ten bucks says you have a google doc full of templates) but that's my two cents. 

Sucker's bet there.:D

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On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 3:58 PM, Lance said:

Hillary Clinton's loss in Pennsylvania or any other state back in the 2016 election has absolutely nothing to do with the Canarsie repairs project. Please keep this to the actual topic at hand.

Well, for what it's worth (much like Wobblyhorse here), Hillary took an..... default_75px-NYCS-bull-trans-L_svg.png.

 

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I don't know if anyone watched the special meeting today, but it was admitted that the Cuomo Plan is less advantageous than the original 15-month shutdown.

Secondly, the theme of the meeting has been, "We cannot answer your questions without a dance because we don't have them yet. Even though this is being treated by everyone else as a solid plan"

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13 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

Secondly, the theme of the meeting has been, "We cannot answer your questions without a dance because we don't have them yet. Even though this is being treated by everyone else as a solid plan"

I’m kinda confused on this quote. What is it exactly you’re trying to summarize here?

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2 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I’m kinda confused on this quote. What is it exactly you’re trying to summarize here?

If I can offer my guess, it'd be that LTA was referring to how Ferrer and the pro-Cuomo-L-plan brass pretty much danced around every question from the skeptical board members (like Polly Trottenberg, who went hard grilling Ferrer), and offered little to no answers to the questions they were asked. Despite this clear lack of concrete info and plans regarding the new Canarsie plans, they (Ferrer and co.) still were putting their support behind the new plan as if, to quote one of the board members asking about any cons to the new plan, "you're saying it's Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed all rolled into one." 

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2 hours ago, Enjineer said:

If I can offer my guess, it'd be that LTA was referring to how Ferrer and the pro-Cuomo-L-plan brass pretty much danced around every question from the skeptical board members (like Polly Trottenberg, who went hard grilling Ferrer), and offered little to no answers to the questions they were asked. Despite this clear lack of concrete info and plans regarding the new Canarsie plans, they (Ferrer and co.) still were putting their support behind the new plan as if, to quote one of the board members asking about any cons to the new plan, "you're saying it's Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed all rolled into one." 

Bingo. That's exactly what it was. 

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