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Mtatransit

MTA Subway Ridership dropped in 2016: First Decline since 2009

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If anything, what is happening is people are indeed voting with their feet, which is one reason congestion is so bad.  I agree that modernization has to be done of the system and that means inconvenience on weekends, but some of these knockouts are so persistent that they don't seem as if they will ever be over.  You can't expect riders to keep putting up with those outages EVERY weekend.  At some point they'll look for alternatives.

 

Metro-North has said that it can't compete with the subway, but from what I've been seeing, more and more people are using it where possible over the subway, even within Manhattan and I can't blame them.  If money is left out of the equation, someone traveling from Grand Central can be at 125th street in 10 minutes with Metro-North, versus what can be up to 30 minutes on the (4)(5)(6) line with the delays.  Another thing that I think some people are sick of are the endless vagrants that seem to be on just about every subway car, along with the showtime dancers.  People just want to get from point A to point B without all of the drama and panhandling.  I saw a video the other day of an (E) filled with homeless people sleeping all over the car.  In short, we're seeing a deterioration of the system all around.

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If anything, what is happening is people are indeed voting with their feet, which is one reason congestion is so bad.  I agree that modernization has to be done of the system and that means inconvenience on weekends, but some of these knockouts are so persistent that they don't seem as if they will ever be over.  You can't expect riders to keep putting up with those outages EVERY weekend.  At some point they'll look for alternatives.

 

Metro-North has said that it can't compete with the subway, but from what I've been seeing, more and more people are using it where possible over the subway, even within Manhattan and I can't blame them.  If money is left out of the equation, someone traveling from Grand Central can be at 125th street in 10 minutes with Metro-North, versus what can be up to 30 minutes on the (4)(5)(6) line with the delays.  Another thing that I think some people are sick of are the endless vagrants that seem to be on just about every subway car, along with the showtime dancers.  People just want to get from point A to point B without all of the drama and panhandling.  I saw a video the other day of an (E) filled with homeless people sleeping all over the car.  In short, we're seeing a deterioration of the system all around.

Every day is dooms day with my pal VG. This go's back to the points that were made before. We got shafted by the generations before us now the ghosts of the past are catching up. It shouldn't be surprising nor should this be catching too many people off guard don't put anything in you don't get anything out not rocket science. Build.. and build now! This might be the best thing to happen in your words this might force the MTA to clean house and make something happen. Just wait until it affects the bottom line around here.  

Edited by RailRunRob
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If anything, what is happening is people are indeed voting with their feet, which is one reason congestion is so bad.  I agree that modernization has to be done of the system and that means inconvenience on weekends, but some of these knockouts are so persistent that they don't seem as if they will ever be over.  You can't expect riders to keep putting up with those outages EVERY weekend.  At some point they'll look for alternatives.

 

Metro-North has said that it can't compete with the subway, but from what I've been seeing, more and more people are using it where possible over the subway, even within Manhattan and I can't blame them.  If money is left out of the equation, someone traveling from Grand Central can be at 125th street in 10 minutes with Metro-North, versus what can be up to 30 minutes on the (4)(5)(6) line with the delays.  Another thing that I think some people are sick of are the endless vagrants that seem to be on just about every subway car, along with the showtime dancers.  People just want to get from point A to point B without all of the drama and panhandling.  I saw a video the other day of an (E) filled with homeless people sleeping all over the car.  In short, we're seeing a deterioration of the system all around.

On a typical weekend, the Lexington Avenue Express runs on a measly 12 minute headway (5 trains per hour) between 125 and GCT, with no express service at all south of that point (just the (4) and (6) both running local to Brooklyn Bridge.)

 

Metro-North has an average 8 trains per hour southbound and 4 trains per hour northbound (the discrepancy is because more NB trains are "receive only" compared to the "discharge only" trains SB at 125th Street.)

 

If I needed to go from Harlem to Midtown, I'd pick Metro-North every time too, especially when the trip only costs less than $2 more on the weekends with a MNR City ticket.

 

So yeah, in this particular instance, Metro-North IS competing. And it actually offers BETTER service vs. the subway.

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Every day is dooms day with my pal VG. This go's back to the points that were made before. We got shafted by the generations before us now the ghosts of the past are catching up. It shouldn't be surprising nor should this be catching too many people off guard don't put anything in you don't get anything out not rocket science. Build.. and build now! This might be the best thing to happen in your words this might force the MTA to clean house and make something happen. Just wait until it affects the bottom line around here.  

It's not about doom and gloom.  It's about understanding ridership patterns and what people expect.  You also have a number of people that have actually stopped using the (MTA) and either walk or bike to work.  I have a co-worker who walks to work almost every day.  She only uses the bus or subway when the weather is bad.  There's another guy in our office building that works for a law firm that bikes to work some days.  I see more people using Citibike to get around and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Quite frankly, I walk as much as possible when in the city because it's reliable. lol I know that my walk to start part of my commute at night will take me 15 - 20 minutes if I don't stop for a macchiato or espresso along the way and it's consistent every day. That's hard to beat, especially since it costs me nothing and provides me with good exercise.  We have more people that are health conscious, which is another good thing, and more people looking for faster/shorter commutes, so those who can walk or bike are doing so.  Then you have the Uber folks or taxi people.  They don't care what the cost is.  They will hop in a cab in a heartbeat.  

 

Perhaps in the past we had a generation that cared less about commuting time, but with the fast paced environment we live in today, every minute counts, and expecting passengers to put up with constant delays because of a cheap subway ride doesn't cut it.  More people are willing to invest in their commutes, either by moving closer to their jobs, and/or paying more for it.

On a typical weekend, the Lexington Avenue Express runs on a measly 12 minute headway (5 trains per hour) between 125 and GCT, with no express service at all south of that point (just the (4) and (6) both running local to Brooklyn Bridge.)

 

Metro-North has an average 8 trains per hour southbound and 4 trains per hour northbound (the discrepancy is because more NB trains are "receive only" compared to the "discharge only" trains SB at 125th Street.)

 

If I needed to go from Harlem to Midtown, I'd pick Metro-North every time too, especially when the trip only costs less than $2 more on the weekends with a MNR City ticket.

 

So yeah, in this particular instance, Metro-North IS competing. And it actually offers BETTER service vs. the subway.

Yep and I've been also noticing more people getting on at 125th to go to GCT in the mornings, even though MNR doesn't post the schedules of those trains on the arrival boards.  You can still see what time the train will arrive roughly using Train Time and get a feel as to what track it will stop on (that rarely changes).  And in many cases, you can get a seat.  The subway can't offer that.  On some weekends, if the (5) isn't running and the (4) is running on reduced frequencies, again MNR can compete easily.  

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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It's not about doom and gloom.  It's about understanding ridership patterns and what people expect.  You also have a number of people that have actually stopped using the (MTA) and either walk or bike to work.  I have a co-worker who walks to work almost every day.  She only uses the bus or subway when the weather is bad.  There's another guy in our office building that works for a law firm that bikes to work some days.  I see more people using Citibike to get around and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Quite frankly, I walk as much as possible when in the city because it's reliable. lol I know that my walk to start part of my commute at night will take me 15 - 20 minutes if I don't stop for a macchiato or espresso along the way and it's consistent every day. That's hard to beat, especially since it costs me nothing and provides me with good exercise.  We have more people that are health conscious, which is another good thing, and more people looking for faster/shorter commutes, so those who can walk or bike are doing so.  Then you have the Uber folks or taxi people.  They don't care what the cost is.  They will hop in a cab in a heartbeat.  

 

Perhaps in the past we had a generation that cared less about commuting time, but with the fast paced environment we live in today, every minute counts, and expecting passengers to put up with constant delays because of a cheap subway ride doesn't cut it.  More people are willing to invest in their commutes, either by moving closer to their jobs, paying more for it.

Everything your saying is valid. The point being everything we need now that was supposed to be implemented by the generations before. I recalled a Billion dollars going missing for the SAS in the 70's after the tax payers already paid!. So yeah the MTA can tweak here and there but the point being there hasn't been any major invest to the system to handle an extra 1-2 Million people. Optimizing schedules isn't going to change that. The ball was dropped.Ironically platforms like Uber are buffering some folks from leaving the city altogether but the road grid has its limits as well. It's doom a gloom because what did folks think was going happen when you don't invest. Yeah, the homeless and other variables but this is an easily identifiable case of cause-and-effect. And every year we waste were further screwing the generations behind us.

Edited by RailRunRob

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While the (MTA) should definitely be concerned, remember, we are levels of ridership that have not been seen since the 1940s!

That said, all these changes and constant work are a major problem and a big headache for people, especially with more people than ever working outside the traditional 9-5 Monday-Friday period.  This is one reason why I think eventually (even if not immediately), the NIMBYs are going to have to realize major upgrades and new lines are going to have to be done and having to streamline costs to get such things done (and holding bidders to doing everything on time or facing severe penalties) is going to have to happen. 

I've said before, especially if the kind of building that is going to take place in midtown over the next 20-30 years happens that is expected to, we may eventually need BOTH the full SAS AND some sort of full-length line on 3rd Avenue, whether it be subway or a rebuilt el and even possibly a similar line on 9th/Columbus or 10th/Amsterdam Avenue (if 10th Avenue, most likely an extension of the (L) that I have proposed in the past, but up the full length of Amsterdam Avenue).  

We have newer generations that I think will want change and not have to necessarily drive to get everywhere.  

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While the (MTA) should definitely be concerned, remember, we are levels of ridership that have not been seen since the 1940s!

 

That said, all these changes and constant work are a major problem and a big headache for people, especially with more people than ever working outside the traditional 9-5 Monday-Friday period.  This is one reason why I think eventually (even if not immediately), the NIMBYs are going to have to realize major upgrades and new lines are going to have to be done and having to streamline costs to get such things done (and holding bidders to doing everything on time or facing severe penalties) is going to have to happen. 

 

I've said before, especially if the kind of building that is going to take place in midtown over the next 20-30 years happens that is expected to, we may eventually need BOTH the full SAS AND some sort of full-length line on 3rd Avenue, whether it be subway or a rebuilt el and even possibly a similar line on 9th/Columbus or 10th/Amsterdam Avenue (if 10th Avenue, most likely an extension of the (L) that I have proposed in the past, but up the full length of Amsterdam Avenue).  

 

We have newer generations that I think will want change and not have to necessarily drive to get everywhere.  

I would consider myself a NIMBY and I don't care about the upgrades.  That's for the (MTA) to worry about and plan around.  I would not just allow them to come in and destroy a community because they need to make upgrades.  That's a lame excuse.  They have a poor track record when it comes to them being transparent about what needs to be done and how communities will be inconvenienced.  Just look at the mess with the (5) line on weekends along the Dyre Avenue branch where service is knocked out almost every weekend in an area with limited alternatives all in the name of upgrades.  It happens because the community allows it to.  Not too long ago in my neighborhood we had some sorely needed work done on the Henry Hudson Parkway pedestrian bridge and we had very little info about what was going on and for how long.  I immediately wrote my representatives to express my concerns about the project and to understand what was being done and why, and the ramifications of such work. 

 

That's how it should be, otherwise you have a mess.  

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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Every day is dooms day with my pal VG. This go's back to the points that were made before. We got shafted by the generations before us now the ghosts of the past are catching up. It shouldn't be surprising nor should this be catching too many people off guard don't put anything in you don't get anything out not rocket science. Build.. and build now! This might be the best thing to happen in your words this might force the MTA to clean house and make something happen. Just wait until it affects the bottom line around here.  

 

He's absolutely right about the vagrancy. It contributes to less ridership overnights. Ridership is still high overnight, but not as high as it could be. Stand on a curb on 14th and 3rd and try and get a cab on a Saturday night. It's as bad as trying to get on the 6 train in Manhattan at 8:45AM on a Monday.

 

NYC is the only city that allows this crap. No more bums spread out all over the car with their crap blocking free movement, or with toxic smells of gangrene and other things in the air that represent a public health hazard. No more panhandling period. Put visible ads up saying not to give, like other cities do. I have way less of a problem with homeless in stations since there is more room and the majority don't bother anyone...but on the train? Absolutely not.

 

But the city needs to do its part too. Hire more cops. Two officers stationed in every homeless shelter...anyone who commits a crime or steals is done. Straight to jail/prison with a long sentence coming. Go back to dedicated insane asylums for the truly crazy and potentially violent. Make the shelters safe, and then you have no excuse for homeless not wanting to go to them. But as they are now, I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to go to one.

 

Also the weekend construction contributed entirely to the decline. Weekday ridership actually went up by .1%, while weekend ridership fell 3.1%. Recurring shutdowns, shuttle bustitution, etc. tend to have that effect.

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Recently, I was on an (E) train with homeless people in 3-4 cars in a row. Someone in my car smelled like weed. It was disgusting. I got off at the next stop and took the (R). It is getting out of control.

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He's absolutely right about the vagrancy. It contributes to less ridership overnights. Ridership is still high overnight, but not as high as it could be. Stand on a curb on 14th and 3rd and try and get a cab on a Saturday night. It's as bad as trying to get on the 6 train in Manhattan at 8:45AM on a Monday.

 

NYC is the only city that allows this crap. No more bums spread out all over the car with their crap blocking free movement, or with toxic smells of gangrene and other things in the air that represent a public health hazard. No more panhandling period. Put visible ads up saying not to give, like other cities do. I have way less of a problem with homeless in stations since there is more room and the majority don't bother anyone...but on the train? Absolutely not.

 

But the city needs to do its part too. Hire more cops. Two officers stationed in every homeless shelter...anyone who commits a crime or steals is done. Straight to jail/prison with a long sentence coming. Go back to dedicated insane asylums for the truly crazy and potentially violent. Make the shelters safe, and then you have no excuse for homeless not wanting to go to them. But as they are now, I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to go to one.

 

Also the weekend construction contributed entirely to the decline. Weekday ridership actually went up by .1%, while weekend ridership fell 3.1%. Recurring shutdowns, shuttle bustitution, etc. tend to have that effect.

I feel like this mindset only exacerbates the homeless problem. 

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He's absolutely right about the vagrancy. It contributes to less ridership overnights. Ridership is still high overnight, but not as high as it could be. Stand on a curb on 14th and 3rd and try and get a cab on a Saturday night. It's as bad as trying to get on the 6 train in Manhattan at 8:45AM on a Monday.

 

NYC is the only city that allows this crap. No more bums spread out all over the car with their crap blocking free movement, or with toxic smells of gangrene and other things in the air that represent a public health hazard. No more panhandling period. Put visible ads up saying not to give, like other cities do. I have way less of a problem with homeless in stations since there is more room and the majority don't bother anyone...but on the train? Absolutely not.

 

But the city needs to do its part too. Hire more cops. Two officers stationed in every homeless shelter...anyone who commits a crime or steals is done. Straight to jail/prison with a long sentence coming. Go back to dedicated insane asylums for the truly crazy and potentially violent. Make the shelters safe, and then you have no excuse for homeless not wanting to go to them. But as they are now, I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to go to one.

 

Also the weekend construction contributed entirely to the decline. Weekday ridership actually went up by .1%, while weekend ridership fell 3.1%. Recurring shutdowns, shuttle bustitution, etc. tend to have that effect.

Didn't know it was that bad. I have noticed a lot more panhandling. Not going to lie haven't been using the Subway to often late nights. My points is mainly the wait and local service. But I could definitely understand that point as well.  

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He's absolutely right about the vagrancy. It contributes to less ridership overnights. Ridership is still high overnight, but not as high as it could be. Stand on a curb on 14th and 3rd and try and get a cab on a Saturday night. It's as bad as trying to get on the 6 train in Manhattan at 8:45AM on a Monday.

 

NYC is the only city that allows this crap. No more bums spread out all over the car with their crap blocking free movement, or with toxic smells of gangrene and other things in the air that represent a public health hazard. No more panhandling period. Put visible ads up saying not to give, like other cities do. I have way less of a problem with homeless in stations since there is more room and the majority don't bother anyone...but on the train? Absolutely not.

 

But the city needs to do its part too. Hire more cops. Two officers stationed in every homeless shelter...anyone who commits a crime or steals is done. Straight to jail/prison with a long sentence coming. Go back to dedicated insane asylums for the truly crazy and potentially violent. Make the shelters safe, and then you have no excuse for homeless not wanting to go to them. But as they are now, I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to go to one.

 

Also the weekend construction contributed entirely to the decline. Weekday ridership actually went up by .1%, while weekend ridership fell 3.1%. Recurring shutdowns, shuttle bustitution, etc. tend to have that effect.

I completely sympathize with the homeless problem.  I once saw a man literally assaulted in Midtown as he was just trying to get a little sleep.  The guy who assaulted him I suppose thought he was an easy target to rob.  What we need is more outreach.  I occasionally see folks working in teams in Grand Central trying to encourage the homeless people to go to a shelter, but from what I hear those are even worse. Nevertheless if we had that in addition to a stringent policy telling people NOT to give we could perhaps see a decrease in the homeless population and the panhandling in general, but it seems as if people enjoy giving these "performers" money.  

 

Aside from that, the (MTA) has done their best to NOT run decent service past a certain time of night.  If you need to take a bus after getting off of the subway, you're likely going to be a waiting a while IF the bus is even running, so often times it just makes sense to catch a cab.  It's safe, quick and is far less aggravation, but either way you slice it, the (MTA) has contributed to creating the current environment in terms of the decline in ridership.  They could certainly do more if they wanted to, but I don't get the sense that they're interested in improving the subway anymore than the bare minimum.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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I'd make the argument that the last two mayors before de Blasio (especially Giuliani) had a harder stance on these vagrants in New York City. NYC's population has increased and the homeless population has exploded, and Bloomberg towards the end of his tenure and de Blasio in the whole time he's been in office haven't been able to keep up with this problem.

 

Also, the claim is ridership has been as high as it was in the 1940's. The problem is we have less infrastructure today than we did in the 1940's. Deterioration aside, in the 40's we still had the 3rd Avenue el in Manhattan, and the BMT still had a couple of els and streetcar lines left in Brooklyn. Our transit system is ill-equipped to handle 1940's ridership, and in a lot of cases it does show.

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Recently, I was on an (E) train with homeless people in 3-4 cars in a row. Someone in my car smelled like weed. It was disgusting. I got off at the next stop and took the (R). It is getting out of control.

Why you gotta mention da weed mon? That is the greatest scent you can find underground.

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I'd make the argument that the last two mayors before de Blasio (especially Giuliani) had a harder stance on these vagrants in New York City. NYC's population has increased and the homeless population has exploded, and Bloomberg towards the end of his tenure and de Blasio in the whole time he's been in office haven't been able to keep up with this problem.

 

Also, the claim is ridership has been as high as it was in the 1940's. The problem is we have less infrastructure today than we did in the 1940's. Deterioration aside, in the 40's we still had the 3rd Avenue el in Manhattan, and the BMT still had a couple of els and streetcar lines left in Brooklyn. Our transit system is ill-equipped to handle 1940's ridership, and in a lot of cases it does show.

Giuliani was the one with the harder stance.  Bloomberg overall didn't give a damn until it started occurring in the toniest parts of the city.  When you started seeing homeless folks on 5th, Madison and Park, that's when you knew the problem was out of control, and slowly they started moving those people off of the streets.  De Blasio has added to the problem with his "affordable housing" agenda.  You have people coming here simply because of the generous housing policies of NYC.

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Giuliani was the one with the harder stance. Bloomberg overall didn't give a damn until it started occurring in the toniest parts of the city. When you started seeing homeless folks on 5th, Madison and Park, that's when you knew the problem was out of control, and slowly they started moving those people off of the streets. De Blasio has added to the problem with his "affordable housing" agenda. You have people coming here simply because of the generous housing policies of NYC.

I don't see the problem with affordable housing, this city needs more of it. What I do have a problem with is the homeless problem, I see them everywhere these days bus stop, train car, train bench. And they do not seem poor at all, I seen Someone take a break and go into Starbucks and get a coffee... The biggest problem is that the mayor DeBlasio is not doing anything about it (maybe even encouraging it). I see less homeless population in Philadelphia and Boston than New York and that's embarrassing and needs to change.

I completely sympathize with the homeless problem. I once saw a man literally assaulted in Midtown as he was just trying to get a little sleep. The guy who assaulted him I suppose thought he was an easy target to rob. What we need is more outreach. I occasionally see folks working in teams in Grand Central trying to encourage the homeless people to go to a shelter, but from what I hear those are even worse. Nevertheless if we had that in addition to a stringent policy telling people NOT to give we could perhaps see a decrease in the homeless population and the panhandling in general, but it seems as if people enjoy giving these "performers" money.

 

Aside from that, the (MTA) has done their best to NOT run decent service past a certain time of night. If you need to take a bus after getting off of the subway, you're likely going to be a waiting a while IF the bus is even running, so often times it just makes sense to catch a cab. It's safe, quick and is far less aggravation, but either way you slice it, the (MTA) has contributed to creating the current environment in terms of the decline in ridership. They could certainly do more if they wanted to, but I don't get the sense that they're interested in improving the subway anymore than the bare minimum.

Yeah the MTA is providing bare minimum service. The subway usually has pretty consistent service overnight 10 minutes between 8-10 PM Sunday's. But the buses (esp where I live in Queens) I am looking at every 25-30 min headway, and the worst part is sometimes both show up at the same time which I don't think was possible until I rode the Q66. Edited by Mtatransit
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I don't see the problem with affordable housing, this city needs more of it. What I do have a problem with is the homeless problem, I see them everywhere these days bus stop, train car, train bench. And they do not seem poor at all, I seen Someone take a break and go into Starbucks and get a coffee... The biggest problem is that the mayor DeBlasio is not doing anything about it (maybe even encouraging it). I see less homeless population in Philadelphia and Boston than New York and that's embarrassing and needs to change. Yeah the MTA is providing bare minimum service. The subway usually has pretty consistent service overnight 10 minutes between 8-10 PM Sunday's. But the buses (esp where I live in Queens) I am looking at every 25-30 min headway, and the worst part is sometimes both show up at the same time which I don't think was possible until I rode the Q66.

I put affordable in quotes because a lot of the so called "affordable" housing isn't affordable for the average Joe. Most people in NYC don't earn over $30,000 a year, so they won't be able to afford these apartments that require them to pay more than a third of their income in rent leaving them with very little money for other necessities. That's why very few young people like myself can afford to live alone and have to either stay at home or live with several roommates. You are right though, the pro tenant policies here in NYC draw even more homeless people, some of whom aren't truly homeless, but work passengers on the subways anyway.

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So the subway decrease was all due to a dramatic weekend decline. The is probably attributable all the GOs. So I wonder about the accuracy of VG's view that people are deserting the subway. Commuters aren't.

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I don't see the problem with affordable housing, this city needs more of it. What I do have a problem with is the homeless problem, I see them everywhere these days bus stop, train car, train bench. And they do not seem poor at all, I seen Someone take a break and go into Starbucks and get a coffee... The biggest problem is that the mayor DeBlasio is not doing anything about it (maybe even encouraging it). I see less homeless population in Philadelphia and Boston than New York and that's embarrassing and needs to change.

Yeah the MTA is providing bare minimum service. The subway usually has pretty consistent service overnight 10 minutes between 8-10 PM Sunday's. But the buses (esp where I live in Queens) I am looking at every 25-30 min headway, and the worst part is sometimes both show up at the same time which I don't think was possible until I rode the Q66.

The freaking Port Authority Bus Terminal has a huge homeless problem, and that's practically in the heart of Midtown. You don't see nearly as much of that at South Station in Boston or even in New Haven and Philly, and even if you do, they're just asking for change *outside* the building.

 

As for the service itself, the loading guidelines have ZERO wiggle room even on a good day. Since about 2010, subways (and maybe buses too, not sure) are basically *required* to go 25% over seated capacity on most trips. A subway car that seats 50 is supposed to have 62 riders per car and a 40 seat bus would have to have 50 riders onboard. Then they fall behind schedule, or a day camp group can board your train and well... you know the rest.

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 De Blasio has added to the problem with his "affordable housing" agenda.  You have people coming here simply because of the generous housing policies of NYC.

 

There is no evidence of that. Very little affordable housing has even been built yet under DeB. And logically, how can people coming here to take advantage of affordable housing - if that is happening - increase the homeless population?

Edited by Italianstallion

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I love how a ridership thread became a homelessness thread.  Not like I don't think it's a problem, but even if it weren't, I'm sure VG8 would find something else to complain about.

Back to the issue of ridership.  The way the media framed this story (not surprisingly) is misleading, because weekday ridership increased, while as people mentioned already, off-peak ridership is down primarily because of non-stop construction work.  It seems that much of this work is still damage control from problems created last generation.  But the fast that ridership is down oh-so-slightly means nothing.  2016's ridership is still higher than 2014 and before.  And with SAS finally online (even if only three stations), I think it's safe to say 2017 could be another record setter.

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Aside from that, the (MTA) has done their best to NOT run decent service past a certain time of night.

THIS. 

 

When I dormed last year, I took plenty of late night fan trips. The subway shouldn't be running every 15-20 minutes late at night. The (E)(F) were the worst when it came to this. I remember one night last May, I had gone out looking for the new XD60s in Queens (I thought they would bring them out that night) and it took me almost an hour and a half to get back to my dorm. I was waiting at Roosevelt Ave for what seemed like 45 minutes for the (E)

 

I get that ridership at night isn't as high as it is during the day, but if they're gonna run local service at night, they need to at least try to run more trains. On the bus side, some, if not many routes need midday level service late at night. Some examples are the Bx36, Q114, and others. 

 

I think what needs to be seen here is that folks are using the system late at night. Be it they work late into the night, people going/coming to/from parties, emergencies, or even folks like me who were having insomnia problems (which was why I was out at night in the first place). It helps to have a little bit more service late nights. I'm not saying lines like the (2)(4)(A)(D)(E)(F)(Q) have to run Express like they do in the daytime, but running some more TPH can't hurt. Even if its only 1 or 2 extra. 

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I agree that the overnight service levels are deplorable, especially on the buses. Even midday service can be really spotty, and I end up spending more money than I'd like on cabs because of these big service gaps.

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