Riders Rally in Manhattan for Answers Ahead of L Train Shutdown

[Via Garibaldi 8]

RIDERS RALLY IN MANHATTAN FOR ANSWERS AHEAD OF L TRAIN SHUTDOWN

By NY1 News  |  December 5, 2017 @6:06 PM

Advocates and L train riders are calling for more transparency from the MTA ahead of the looming shutdown in 2019, saying hundreds of thousands of commuters will need an alternative when the subway service stops for repairs in April of 2019.

The commuters held a rally outside City Hall on Tuesday, demanding that transit officials sit with a community advisory board every month, beginning in January, to discuss plans for affected riders and neighborhood traffic.

"Our big concern is that we'll get the information too late and not have enough time to respond and see if we can modify it and enhance and make plans better," Brooklyn City Councilman Antonio Reynoso said. "We cannot get them at the last minute and accept it, or expect us to accept it."

In a statement, the city transportation department said it is working to improve communication with straphangers, saying there is still plenty of time before the closure goes into effect.

Video: http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2017/12/05/rally-outside-nyc-city-hall-advocates-demand-l-train-shutdown-transparency

Source: http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2017/12/05/rally-outside-nyc-city-hall-advocates-demand-l-train-shutdown-transparency

[Via Garibaldi 8]

MTA TO ADD MORE DIESEL BUSES TO STREETS ONCE L TRAIN SHUTS DOWN

By Zack Fink  |  November 13, 2017 @11:23 PM

As the shutdown of the L train between Brooklyn and Manhattan moves closer, some environmentalists are asking why the MTA's solution involves adding more polluting diesel buses to city streets. The subway tunnel will be temporarily shutdown for repairs in 2019, which is when the buses will be added. NY1 Political Reporter Zack Fink has the story.

Parts of Williamsburg, Brooklyn, sit in the shadow of the elevated Brooklyn-Queens Expressway, one of the most trafficked motorways in the city.

Residents in the area have long complained about pollution — even before the MTA announced plans to add diesel-burning public buses to the streets.

"This is going to have a very negative impact on the air quality of North Brooklyn, which is already notorious for having bad air quality," Brooklyn City Councilman Rafael Espinal said. "This is an environmental justice issue, this is a social justice issue."

The L train subway tunnel between Brooklyn and Manhattan was damaged during Hurricane Sandy more than five years ago. The MTA is planning on shutting it down for repairs, adding 180 new diesel-burning buses to shuttle affected straphangers.

"It was pretty surprising, especially to go with diesel when there are some other options, especially with electric being on the cutting edge," said Kat Fisher of environmental group Sierra Club. "We see not only other U.S. cities making this change; we see commitments coming out of cities in Europe."

According to the MTA, the agency is launching a pilot program next year to introduce zero-emissions electric buses, but it will take some time to get them out on the streets.

If all goes well, there will be 70 electric buses by 2020. One-third of the city's fleet currently run on alternative fuels like natural gas.

In a statement, MTA Communications Director Jon Weinstein said, "New York City Transit has been a leader in implementing environmentally-friendly bus technology and as we evaluate the results of our all-electric bus pilot, we will look to expand it."

Critics say diesel was the worst option. "There is an irony there. How are we going to buy diesel-powered buses to further have a negative impact on the environment, to mediate a problem that was caused by climate change?" Espinal said. "So, let's get serious."

The L train shutdown is scheduled to begin in April 2019 and last 15 months. It's expected to affect about 225,000 daily commuters between Brooklyn and Manhattan.

Video: http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2017/11/14/mta-plans-add-diesel-buses-shuttle-l-train-commuters-affected-by-future-shutdown-nyc

Source: http://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/transit/2017/11/14/mta-plans-add-diesel-buses-shuttle-l-train-commuters-affected-by-future-shutdown-nyc

[MysteriousBtrain]

Honestly if it were up to me even if I get sued through the ass, I would not give these hipsters any bus service. They are really ungrateful and even if there is a plan to make GA or another depot 100% electric, it's not the community's job to tell the MTA what they should or shouldn't use.

 

I'm all for fighting for change, but at the same time it's stupid because the current diesels we are getting are cleaner than older buses. Not much of a fuel difference.

[NY1635]

That part of Williamsburg was, and some parts of it is still industrial. There's nothing the MTA can do about the pollution unless the city's goes overboard and converts it into a fully residential neighborhood.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I’d be much more concerned about this if I were any of them. 

http://www.amny.com/transit/l-train-shutdown-plan-1.15328192

[BreeddekalbL]

9 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Honestly if it were up to me even if I get sued through the ass, I would not give these hipsters any bus service. They are really ungrateful and even if there is a plan to make GA or another depot 100% electric, it's not the community's job to tell the MTA what they should or shouldn't use.

 

I'm all for fighting for change, but at the same time it's stupid because the current diesels we are getting are cleaner than older buses. Not much of a fuel difference.

👏👏👏

Those gavones need to stop their whining

Also a random thought if the  did what they did for the old   shutdown over the williamsburg bridge with todays variables would you still have those gavones crying?  

 

[B35 via Church]

13 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Honestly if it were up to me even if I get sued through the ass, I would not give these hipsters any bus service. They are really ungrateful and even if there is a plan to make GA or another depot 100% electric, it's not the community's job to tell the MTA what they should or shouldn't use.....

The NYC hipster is the modern day NIMBYer; except these new-age NIMBY's only want subway service there..... We happen to share the same sentiments regarding giving these folks nothing as a compromise in terms of public bus service... Hell, I believe I've even said as such, back when someone made a thread on here when news about this  shutdown first broke out.... 

4 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

....Also a random thought if the  did what they did for the old   shutdown over the williamsburg bridge with todays variables would you still have those gavones crying?  

Sure, why not....

[Lawrence St]

They really are annoying me. If it were up to me, I would just let the keep running until the tunnels collapse and then give an "I told you so" speech.

 

Yes, it has gotten me very annoyed.

[darkstar8983]

14 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Honestly if it were up to me even if I get sued through the ass, I would not give these hipsters any bus service. They are really ungrateful and even if there is a plan to make GA or another depot 100% electric, it's not the community's job to tell the MTA what they should or shouldn't use.

 

I'm all for fighting for change, but at the same time it's stupid because the current diesels we are getting are cleaner than older buses. Not much of a fuel difference.

I agree with your statement. Those hipsters should get no bus service. If it were up to me, I’d call the shutdown to start tomorrow to teach them a lesson

[RailRunRob]

This plays to the overall narrative that the Subway's connection and role in the economy is intertwined and complicated at best. And to the average person, this relationship is invisible people take infrastructure for granted. This highlights that to a large degree.  There's going to be a lot to be learned from this project on all sides how to manage future project's of this scale Especially in areas where there isn't redundancy. We do know this is going to happen again whether it be for upgrades or emergencies the data and auditing the project after completion is a must not just for the MTA but Civic and State levels as well. This should also be a wakeup call for the public on how important and vital the Subway is to our City. Williamsburg is a prime example of building Enterprise and Empires around infrastructure we all take for granted. Highrise after Highrise with not a thought to how people get around. "Just a 5 Min walk to train" That's what you see in the posts.Well, day of reckoning is here. Trust and believe Developers and realtors are leading the charge for rallies and answers. There the ones pulling the strings. Post-(L) project investors in other areas might look twice at the Subway Arteries they're helping to clog. The MTA really needs to go on a PR Blitz and they should use this opportunity to do so to educate the public on what needs to be done and why. One of my business partners live in "The Edge" literally right across the street from the north 7th pumphouse and uses the daily. I remember having the conversation with him and another tenant about the impending closure 1st there was a period of the denial " No what? That can't happen your mistaken! Then Anger "The MTA is taking our money there not doing there job blah blah!" It wasn't until It was explained that this infrastructure which they didn't see it as (go figure) needed to be repaired or hell it's going to collapse..d*mn near people are going die. That they got it "What this tunnel opened in 1924? Why didn't they maintain it sooner? They need to better fund/manage the system better it's important!."  When people are informed there is no other option and you're better off after the 18 months for the next 60 years the response is different. What we're doing why were doing and how your benefit(what you get). The MTA could be honest especially if they've never tackled a problem like this. Honesty is the best policy sometimes especially in Short-term no win situations. It's clear there stalling here and trying to figure this out or trying to get other Agencies and departments to understand implications. In any case, this is going to be interesting let see how they handle it. Could this be a turning point on how we view and treat our system?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

51 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

This plays to the overall narrative that the Subway's connection and role in the economy is intertwined and complicated at best. And to the average person, this relationship is invisible people take infrastructure for granted. This highlights that to a large degree.  There's going to be a lot to be learned from this project on all sides how to manage future project's of this scale Especially in areas where there isn't redundancy. We do know this is going to happen again whether it be for upgrades or emergencies the data and auditing the project after completion is a must not just for the MTA but Civic and State levels as well. This should also be a wakeup call for the public on how important and vital the Subway is to our City. Williamsburg is a prime example of building Enterprise and Empires around infrastructure we all take for granted. Highrise after Highrise with not a thought to how people get around. "Just a 5 Min walk to train" That's what you see in the posts.Well, day of reckoning is here. Trust and believe Developers and realtors are leading the charge for rallies and answers. There the ones pulling the strings. Post-(L) project investors in other areas might look twice at the Subway Arteries they're helping to clog. The MTA really needs to go on a PR Blitz and they should use this opportunity to do so to educate the public on what needs to be done and why. One of my business partners live in "The Edge" literally right across the street from the north 7th pumphouse and uses the daily. I remember having the conversation with him and another tenant about the impending closure 1st there was a period of the denial " No what? That can't happen your mistaken! Then Anger "The MTA is taking our money there not doing there job blah blah!" It wasn't until It was explained that this infrastructure which they didn't see it as (go figure) needed to be repaired or hell it's going to collapse..d*mn near people are going die. That they got it "What this tunnel opened in 1924? Why didn't they maintain it sooner? They need to better fund/manage the system better it's important!."  When people are informed there is no other option and you're better off after the 18 months for the next 60 years the response is different. What we're doing why were doing and how your benefit(what you get). The MTA could be honest especially if they've never tackled a problem like this. Honesty is the best policy sometimes especially in Short-term no win situations. It's clear there stalling here and trying to figure this out or trying to get other Agencies and departments to understand implications. In any case, this is going to be interesting let see how they handle it. Could this a turning point on how we view and treat our system?

They make a good point.  The riding public is PAYING but not getting what they're getting for.  We pay some of the highest taxes in the country, so the funds should be there. That's their point.  

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

I agree with your statement. Those hipsters should get no bus service. If it were up to me, I’d call the shutdown to start tomorrow to teach them a lesson

 

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

They really are annoying me. If it were up to me, I would just let the keep running until the tunnels collapse and then give an "I told you so" speech.

 

Yes, it has gotten me very annoyed.

 

6 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

👏👏👏

Those gavones need to stop their whining

Also a random thought if the  did what they did for the old   shutdown over the williamsburg bridge with todays variables would you still have those gavones crying?  

 

 

16 hours ago, NY1635 said:

That part of Williamsburg was, and some parts of it is still industrial. There's nothing the MTA can do about the pollution unless the city's goes overboard and converts it into a fully residential neighborhood.

 

16 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Honestly if it were up to me even if I get sued through the ass, I would not give these hipsters any bus service. They are really ungrateful and even if there is a plan to make GA or another depot 100% electric, it's not the community's job to tell the MTA what they should or shouldn't use.

 

I'm all for fighting for change, but at the same time it's stupid because the current diesels we are getting are cleaner than older buses. Not much of a fuel difference.

Some of these comments are quite ignorant. I'm not defending hipsters at all.  It is the City that has re-zoned various areas of NYC from industrial to residential, and with that change comes responsibilities to ALL taxpayers, so they actually are correct in their demands.  Various neighborhoods of all economic backgrounds have demanded cleaner buses from the  because it is a known fact that in very impoverished neighborhoods (parts of Harlem and parts of the Bronx) where you have lots of buses or depots, the asthma rates are sky high.  It's one of the reasons that the  has been as aggressive as they have been with buying more clean air buses in the first place. 

The poorest neighborhoods historically have faced the highest rates of asthma and other pollutants, and if the attitude is that those damn hipsters can't complain, then that would mean that impoverished neighborhoods that complained wouldn't have a say either, right? That's my understanding from these comments. We all should have clean air to breathe and they do raise a good point.  If we're talking about over 200,000 passengers a day that now have to use other means, well what means will there be, and what are the consequences?  If this was happening in my neighborhood, I would be saying the same thing, and the rest of you would be smart to as well.  If they're going to move all of these people with more buses, well that means a lot more congestion and pollution suddenly coming in, so how do you mitigate that?

The situation happening here can happen to any one of you in your neighborhood, so instead of jumping down their throat, put yourself in their situation. I don't think you would be saying the same thing.  

[RailRunRob]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They make a good point.  The riding public is PAYING but not getting what they're getting for.  We pay some of the highest taxes in the country, so the funds should be there. That's their point.  

 

 

It's a valid point having knowledge and education on the topic is what spawn them to ask about accountability on whether proper maintenance and care is given to the system.  But yeah I think it's fair for people to want to  know that the MTA is doing everything within there power to make this 15-month shutdown workable. I saw a matrix that added 30-45 mins to commute times from Grahm to Bedford and 14th street corridor that's quite abit. There are some differences between the Williamsburg Bridge closure and this. Misplaced riders is the main one in 1999 there where what 95k people a day rerouted? More than 200k with the  the  was also right before the population boom in NYC and in Williamsburg namely. If memory serves me correctly I think they shut service in 1987 or 1988 for a few months as well due to infrastructure right after the Manhattan bridge shutdowns I remember something like that as a kid. The point being they should just be more transparent and show the public there doing everything in their power.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

It's a valid point having knowledge and education on the topic is what spawn them to ask about accountability on whether proper maintenance and care is given to the system.  But yeah I think it's fair for people to want to  know that the MTA is doing everything within there power to make this 15-month shutdown workable. I saw a matrix that added 30-45 mins to commute times from Grahm to Bedford and 14th street corridor that's quite abit. There are some differences between the Williamsburg Bridge closure and this. Misplaced riders is the main one in 1999 there where what 95k people a day rerouted? More than 200k with the  the  was also right before the population boom in NYC and in Williamsburg namely. If memory serves me correctly I think they shut service in 1987 or 1988 for a few months as well due to infrastructure right after the Manhattan bridge shutdowns I remember something like that as a kid. The point being they should just be more transparent and show the public there doing everything in their power.

And I think that's the main concern.  Another concern has to be what if this project goes past what is estimated, so better safe than sorry.  This is a perfect example of how important transportation is. You know we really do take it for granted, but this forum is great in showing what a difference it can have on our daily lives.  Me personally, transportation impacted where I live today for sure.  There's another point that one of the articles makes and that's the impact on local businesses there.  They're very concerned because Williamsburg has become a destination place of sorts. In fact there a few places I frequent in Manhattan to eat that have their headquarters in Williamsburg, so the viability of the area could be impacted significantly.

Let's go back to what Williamsburg was prior to gentrification. It was not a place many wanted to go to (most of it was industrial and rundown), so this shutdown has several layers of things that should be examined.

[MysteriousBtrain]

13 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

It's a valid point having knowledge and education on the topic is what spawn them to ask about accountability on whether proper maintenance and care is given to the system.  But yeah I think it's fair for people to want to  know that the MTA is doing everything within there power to make this 15-month shutdown workable.

That's my main problem. How many Electric buses do we have? And how old are they? We are trying to experiment with different fuels, but we need time to implement the features. Would you rather get to work on time or do you want to see the sky as blue as possible? Can't have both.

[RailRunRob]

38 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And I think that's the main concern.  Another concern has to be what if this project goes past what is estimated, so better safe than sorry.  This is a perfect example of how important transportation is. You know we really do take it for granted, but this forum is great in showing what a difference it can have on our daily lives.  Me personally, transportation impacted where I live today for sure.  There's another point that one of the articles makes and that's the impact on local businesses there.  They're very concerned because Williamsburg has become a destination place of sorts. In fact there a few places I frequent in Manhattan to eat that have their headquarters in Williamsburg, so the viability of the area could be impacted significantly.

Let's go back to what Williamsburg was prior to gentrification. It was not a place many wanted to go to (most of it was industrial and rundown), so this shutdown has several layers of things that should be examined.

Indeed and to your point, the lack of investment on that line predates the Hip Williamsburg. So with that said so much is being built on foundations that weren't properly checked. Just taken it for granted. That begs the question of newly developing area LIC and Dwtn BK are prime examples are we understanding the Infrastructure were building on? There's a term used in Civil engineering and Infrastructure planning and deployment  "Brownfield" It's a process of building around and within Existing conditions and Infrastructure. opposed to a Greenfield project with nothing. Doesn't seem that process is being used in many of these cases. Should Developers be held more accountable or have a standard or Duty to invest or offset in the area's they're developing in?  This Closure I think might open that can of worms. Or I'd hope it would.

[RailRunRob]

22 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

That's my main problem. How many Electric buses do we have? And how old are they? We are trying to experiment with different fuels, but we need time to implement the features. Would you rather get to work on time or do you want to see the sky as blue as possible? Can't have both.

Time is one resource you can't get back and with most everything that's your main adversary. Money being second.  Compromise, Delegation, and Balance are Usually the weapons of choice to get things done. With Business at least.  But point taken. Definitely can't have both.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Indeed and to your point, the lack of investment on that line predates the Hip Williamsburg. So with that said so much is being built on foundations that weren't properly checked. Just taken it for granted. That begs the question of newly developing area LIC and Dwtn BK are prime examples are we understanding the Infrastructure were building on? There's a term used in Civil engineering and Infrastructure planning and deployment  "Brownfield" It's a process of building around and within Existing conditions and Infrastructure. opposed to a Greenfield project with nothing. Doesn't seem that process is being used in many of these cases. Should Developers be held more accountable or have a standard or Duty to invest or offset in the area's they're developing in?  This Closure I think might open that can of worms. Or I'd hope it would.

It's one of the reasons that I've argued that NYC should be contributing more to the . Either you force developers to provide monies for transportation infrastructure in return for the tax breaks that they get, or you put a provision in that requires certain developments to have a certain percentage of monies allocated for infrastructure improvements.  This is something that I don't think the City has thought about quite frankly, but even in places like North Riverdale, there was a similar re-zoning issue that came up.  The questions raised were with regards to parking, but also adequate subway and bus service to accommodate more residents.  It's one the reasons the plan was ultimately scrapped.

They've introduced re-zoning that allows developers to build and build, and now that we have such a strain on the system, the mayor points the finger at the State and says well Cuomo runs the , and while that's true, the City benefits handsomely with this sort of development.  More tax revenues for the City...

[Lawrence St]

VG8, I'm not calling you out, your one of my friends and you go through the same troubles I do. But seriously, there is a point where constant whining will not get anyone anywhere.

[RailRunRob]

16 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's one of the reasons that I've argued that NYC should be contributing more to the . Either you force developers to provide monies for transportation infrastructure in return for the tax breaks that they get, or you put a provision in that requires certain developments to have a certain percentage of monies allocated for infrastructure improvements.  This is something that I don't think the City has thought about quite frankly, but even in places like North Riverdale, there was a similar re-zoning issue that came up.  The questions raised were with regards to parking, but also adequate subway and bus service to accommodate more residents.  It's one the reasons the plan was ultimately scrapped.

They've introduced re-zoning that allows developers to build and build, and now that we have such a strain on the system, the mayor points the finger at the State and says well Cuomo runs the , and while that's true, the City benefits handsomely with this sort of development.  More tax revenues for the City...

 

I'm with you 1000% they need to reinvest something in the pot. There making fortunes Property is nothing without access. Subway access is the selling point for many a Property I know a few brokers. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

50 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

VG8, I'm not calling you out, your one of my friends and you go through the same troubles I do. But seriously, there is a point where constant whining will not get anyone anywhere.

Well when I originally posted the articles I thought the same thing, but after reading them, it's really on the  to communicate, and it seems as if they haven't.  If they have a viable plan, they need to be forthcoming with it and keep the community abreast.  It's very obvious that the community wants to be involved and they should because a lot of things can happen in 15 months.  If you go back to the SAS project, there are quite a few restaurants that I used to frequent around there that didn't survive because of that project, but even that is a separate issue.  What is really important is how the  plans on handling those 200,000 commuters a day and what sort of commutes they can expect that will have the least impact on them and the community as a whole. I personally think that an additional 45 minutes is a lot.  That's almost 5 hours more of commuting a week, and personally speaking as someone who has had their commute increased, it sucks.

[biGC323232]

23 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well when I originally posted the articles I thought the same thing, but after reading them, it's really on the  to communicate, and it seems as if they haven't.  If they have a viable plan, they need to be forthcoming with it and keep the community abreast.  It's very obvious that the community wants to be involved and they should because a lot of things can happen in 15 months.  If you go back to the SAS project, there are quite a few restaurants that I used to frequent around there that didn't survive because of that project, but even that is a separate issue.  What is really important is how the  plans on handling those 200,000 commuters a day and what sort of commutes they can expect that will have the least impact on them and the community as a whole. I personally think that an additional 45 minutes is a lot.  That's almost 5 hours more of commuting a week, and personally speaking as someone who has had their commute increased, it sucks.

I Understand exactly where there coming from...Some areas arent easy to make adjustments too...unforunatelymost of the  riders they have no choice cause that tunnel needs fixing asap...Shit when my pennsylvania station on the  was out and they was doing repairs at van siclen and junuis st i had to walk several blocks for an alternative.which is no fun in the winter...there was shuttle buses but the nature of some areas buses can take twice as time to reach a single station...

[INDman]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They make a good point.  The riding public is PAYING but not getting what they're getting for.  We pay some of the highest taxes in the country, so the funds should be there. That's their point.  

 

 

 

 

I thought I had read something years ago that the price of a subway ride, to be fully covered by the fare box would need to be around $5 or $6. I think at $2.75, while service needs to be improved, riders are getting more than their money’s worth.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, INDman said:

I thought I had read something years ago that the price of a subway ride, to be fully covered by the fare box would need to be around $5 or $6. I think at $2.75, while service needs to be improved, riders are getting more than their money’s worth.

Even so, the riders are taxpayers.  You and others seem to forget that, nor do you realize how many fees are paid from things like phone bills, bridges and tolls, the surcharge from every taxi ride and so on that all goes from our pockets to the .  Add the fares paid, PLUS the fees and taxes paid, and no, nowhere near getting their money's worth.

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, INDman said:

I thought I had read something years ago that the price of a subway ride, to be fully covered by the fare box would need to be around $5 or $6. I think at $2.75, while service needs to be improved, riders are getting more than their money’s worth.

The problem is that a good chunk of that goes to expenses that don't have much to do with running the subway, namely the pensions and the exploding debt interest. Giuliani and Cuomo Sr. and Pataki and everyone after decided to play hot potato with the funding needs and now we're here.

[Lawrence St]

Look , here's my solution to the problem:

 

Have an SBS Shuttle Bus operate from Bedford Av on the  to Marcy Avenue on the  , with its own dedicated bus lanes and prioritized traffic lights, and these buses depart from Bedford Avenue every time a train terminates at Bedford. This adds 10 minutes to someone's commute at most.