Why is 5 the Bx Express instead of 2?

[Calvin]

Speaking of the  to Nereid Av, the 5:24PM, 5:39PM and 5:51PM out of Flatbush Av to Nereid Av will always change to depart at the late rush.

[Calvin]

On 4/1/2018 at 12:02 AM, Snowblock said:

You'll see a late evening  to Nereid if that's a crew that finishes at 239 Yard and were delayed getting down to Brooklyn earlier in the day. You can't send Dyre crews to 239 if they have additional trips to make, because they won't have sufficient time to do the layup and then get from 239 to Dyre in time for their next trip. 239 yard needs to have a certain number of sets in order to make up proper service the next morning, so if 239 never got a set from their scheduled interval, then a later interval will run.

That happens on the trains to/from Utica Av. Then, Bowling Green bound. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Calvin

[Trainmaster5]

5 hours ago, Deucey said:

26 minutes between Dyre and GC/149th on ; 31 minutes between Wakefield and GC/149th on .

IJS

The sad thing is that it used to be 25 minutes on the and 29 minutes on the before the  ATS system and the NTT equipment were  introduced. Progress,  or so they'd like you to believe. Well at least the trains and signals are newer than they were.  Carry on. 

[Jemorie]

8 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

especially since the folks at 241-238 streets kept their rush hour Lexington service with the 14  trains stored in the yard up there. With the changing demographics it remains to be seen if service is significantly changed up there. The political clout used to be on the Dyre line. Carry on.

Damn. When I first came to this forums, I thought the  to/from Nereid was only "limited" like the  to New Lots,  to 96th, etc.

But I guess there's nothing that anyone can do to change that as long as politics come into play.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Jemorie

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The sad thing is that it used to be 25 minutes on the and 29 minutes on the before the  ATS system and the NTT equipment were  introduced. Progress,  or so they'd like you to believe. Well at least the trains and signals are newer than they were.  Carry on. 

REDBIRDSSSSS

[RR503]

4 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The sad thing is that it used to be 25 minutes on the and 29 minutes on the before the  ATS system and the NTT equipment were  introduced. Progress,  or so they'd like you to believe. Well at least the trains and signals are newer than they were.  Carry on. 

When doing the resignalling on WPR/Dyre, did they add significantly more timers? 

[Jemorie]

6 hours ago, RR503 said:

When doing the resignalling on WPR/Dyre, did they add significantly more timers? 

There are timers between Bronx Park East and East 180th Street, then between East 180th Street and West Farms Square, and lastly approaching/leaving Simpson Street. All in both directions.

I think they are timers when southbound trains are approaching 3rd Avenue-149th Street as well.

[RR503]

7 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

There are timers between Bronx Park East and East 180th Street, then between East 180th Street and West Farms Square, and lastly approaching/leaving Simpson Street. All in both directions.

I think they are timers when southbound trains are approaching 3rd Avenue-149th Street as well.

Thanks! Are these new with the resignalling though? Or were they original? 

[checkmatechamp13]

On 4/1/2018 at 8:07 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I've used a few of them that actually stayed express and didn't switch to the local track. If they remain express as they're supposed to, they use the middle track all the way to Nereid Avenue, so for example, after Gun Hill Road, it continues express. Given how many people would benefit from express service, it should definitely be expanded, but it's really hit or miss. Any little track problem, and that will become local in the blink of an eye.

That's not physically possible. There's a switch north of Gun Hill Road, and after that, the next possible station that the express tracks connect to is Wakefield/241st Street. So trains can either run express to Gun Hill and local to Nereid, or just head straight to the yard from Gun Hill. 

On 4/1/2018 at 9:42 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

We'll let me ask you this... If you had two means of transit and one was constantly not running, wouldn't you change your commute? That's what I think has happened with the . It runs so rarely on weekends that people adjust and go to places where transportation DOES run, which explain the train on weekends. If the ran regularly I think people would use it more and it would alleviate crowding on the .

5

The  runs to WPR now as part of the construction on the Clark Street Tunnel.

21 hours ago, S78 via Hylan said:

They tried it in 2009 as a pilot program that proved unsuccessful.

Also, it would defeat the whole purpose to have the run express to 149th, only to switch to the local track to serve 138th. That's the whole point of skipping 138th-to give the  train some space to merge with the  without holding up the  train behind it.

Edited April 3, 2018 by checkmatechamp13

[Jemorie]

3 hours ago, RR503 said:

Thanks! Are these new with the resignalling though? Or were they original? 

No idea. Maybe Trainmaster5 or any of the other  employees knows.

[Trainmaster5]

2 hours ago, Jemorie said:

No idea. Maybe Trainmaster5 or any of the other  employees knows.

No new timers were installed IIRC. The new signals basically just replaced the old ones. The timed locations remained the same.

[Lawrence St]

I honestly don't know why it takes this long to replace the signalling system on Dyre. Back before the Clark St shutdown went into effect, the would always terminate at East 180th and only rarely go to Dyre on the weekends.

[Snowblock]

On 4/2/2018 at 11:10 PM, Calvin said:

Speaking of the  to Nereid Av, the 5:24PM, 5:39PM and 5:51PM out of Flatbush Av to Nereid Av will always change to depart at the late rush.

These intervals no longer exist. There's a 5:21 and a 5:38 out of Flatbush to Nereid and those are the final two. As I already stated in this thread, if the crews that make those intervals come down late, they will also go back up late.

 

14 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I honestly don't know why it takes this long to replace the signalling system on Dyre. Back before the Clark St shutdown went into effect, the would always terminate at East 180th and only rarely go to Dyre on the weekends.

The Dyre line is going to be bustified for the next 3 weekends. However, the GO states this is for track replacement. The signal work is pretty much done on that line now.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Snowblock

[Calvin]

On 4/4/2018 at 3:10 PM, Snowblock said:

These intervals no longer exist. There's a 5:21 and a 5:38 out of Flatbush to Nereid and those are the final two. As I already stated in this thread, if the crews that make those intervals come down late, they will also go back up late.

Thank you. Before, I saw this post through my mobile device. And also, the timetable was updated for the  but not 100% changed. For example, It said 15:50 to Utica, however, that would be the 16:00 train. 

[Union Tpke]

@Lance @RR503

Sorry for necroposting, but this is 100% on topic and relevant.

IMG_7859 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7860 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7861 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7862 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Edited August 14, 2019 by Union Tpke

[Lex]

If the / flip were to happen, I'd just leave all peak  trains on the local track.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

7 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

 

 

IMG_7862 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

I remember seeing maps in some of the R142s and R142As in 2000 when they first went into service. But I don’t remember if the  and  ever actually ran that pattern. I know Dyre riders were not happy about it and that then-State Sen. Jeff Klein called upon Transit not to go through with it. 

6 hours ago, Lex said:

If the / flip were to happen, I'd just leave all peak  trains on the local track.

It really would have made more sense to do it that way, so there wouldn’t have been a cut in service frequently between Tremont and Jackson. But Dyre riders probably still would have put up a fight over it. They do need to fix that junction at East 180. It really shouldn’t be that difficult since it’s entirely on  property.

[Union Tpke]

2 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I remember seeing maps in some of the R142s and R142As in 2000 when they first went into service. But I don’t remember if the  and  ever actually ran that pattern. I know Dyre riders were not happy about it and that then-State Sen. Jeff Klein called upon Transit not to go through with it. 

It really would have made more sense to do it that way, so there wouldn’t have been a cut in service frequently between Tremont and Jackson. But Dyre riders probably still would have put up a fight over it. They do need to fix that junction at East 180. It really shouldn’t be that difficult since it’s entirely on  property.

Really, they had maps. Wow. I would love to see pictures of those.

[Deucey]

8 hours ago, Lex said:

If the / flip were to happen, I'd just leave all peak  trains on the local track.

IDG why they run  local full-time to appease Dyre Av riders but Dyre Av is the shuttle.

Especially because of the route length, if Dyre Av’s gotta be the White Plains Line express,  should run to it and  to Wakefield.

[Lex]

20 minutes ago, Deucey said:

IDG why they run  local full-time to appease Dyre Av riders but Dyre Av is the shuttle.

Especially because of the route length, if Dyre Av’s gotta be the White Plains Line express,  should run to it and  to Wakefield.

That would mean either making Wakefield's service the shuttle or running all overnight service into Manhattan, and I really don't think the MTA wants to do either.

[Trainmaster5]

I saw the infighting firsthand and both my C/R and I had personal conversations about the issue with our regular riders.  We also had sources in Operations and Planning so we were aware of the plans before the public was. The idea looked great on paper from the perspective but sometimes people forget whom the service is supposed to benefit. When you have politicians who control the money flow and happen to chair or sit on the appropriate committees you damn well better cater to them. Real world hardball is/was played up there.  Those who fail to see the big picture lose every time.  Many people forget that the was the original Dyre line when the connection to the mainline was made.  Most riders abandoned ship at the East 180th  Street station and transferred to the which originated at 241 St at the time.  This I learned firsthand from the supervision at the East,  the older generation who broke me in as a C/R, and my rabbi,  who all worked up there and resided up there even before the connection was made. What many people overlooked is that the Dyre line has many people with skin in the game. It's a diverse group that I have noticed over the years.  The Morris Park folks,  the Pelham Parkway residential and hospital crowd,  the rest of the Dyre line up to the terminal,  and the Co-op and the Mount Vernon folks.  Think east of White Plains Road and both sides of the northern border. These folks and those who ride the AM from 238th or Dyre want Lexington service and don't suggest overcrowding the platforms at East 180 while people make the transfer from a Dyre West side train. Surveys taken back then suggested that the ridership south of East 180th were more likely to have West Side destinations compared to the northernmost ridership. Perhaps the demographics will change and the proposed changes will be implemented but I will caution everyone that the is a political entity first and foremost. A think tank or a low level civil servant might think the plan is wonderful but anyone else involved without protection of some sort is putting their career on the line by pushing the plan on the public. Just my opinion. Carry on. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Trainmaster5
Additional information

[Lex]

5 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I saw the infighting firsthand and both my C/R and I had personal conversations about the issue with our regular riders.  We also had sources in Operations and Planning so we were aware of the plans before the public was. The idea looked great on paper from the perspective but sometimes people forget whom the service is supposed to benefit. When you have politicians who control the money flow and happen to chair or sit on the appropriate committees you damn well better cater to them. Real world hardball is/was played up there.  Those who fail to see the big picture lose every time.  Many people forget that the was the original Dyre line when the connection to the mainline was made.  Most riders abandoned ship at the East 180th  Street station and transferred to the which originated at 241 St at the time.  This I learned firsthand from the supervision at the East,  the older generation who broke me in as a C/R, and my rabbi,  who all worked up there and resided up there even before the connection was made. What many people overlooked is that the Dyre line has many people with skin in the game. It's a diverse group that I have noticed over the years.  The Morris Park folks,  the Pelham Parkway residential and hospital crowd,  the rest of the Dyre line up to the terminal,  and the Co-op and the Mount Vernon folks.  Think east of White Plains Road and both sides of the northern border. These folks and those who ride the AM from 238th or Dyre want Lexington service and don't suggest overcrowding the platforms at East 180 while people make the transfer from a Dyre (2). The surveys taken back then suggested that the ridership south of East 180th were more likely to have West Side destinations compared to the northernmost ridership. Perhaps the demographics will change and the proposed changes will be implemented but I will caution everyone that the is a political entity first and foremost. A think tank or a low level civil servant might think the plan is wonderful but anyone else involved without protection of some sort is putting their career on the line by pushing the plan on the public. Just my opinion. Carry on. 

In that case, we'd be better off altering how the Dyre Avenue Line connects, which could also make a potential local/express swap easier if the ridership warrants it.

[RR503]

28 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Surveys taken back then suggested that the ridership south of East 180th were more likely to have West Side destinations compared to the northernmost ridership.

This is interesting. The above posted photo of the board book narrative suggests that 180-3/149 preferred Lex over 7th. Was this something they obfuscated? I had also heard that folks from WPR frequently had destinations in that 180-149 stretch. Is that true?

Generally, the political game played in these sorts of service changes speaks to the impossibility of running a transit system. Operationally, there is very much a better and worse way to run the trains, and for cost and overall service quality reasons, it should be a priority that those patterns are achieved -- provided mitigations exist for any/all knock on effects. But as TM5 says, the MTA is very much a political entity, so unless the agency can articulate to all stakeholders why something that may seem inconvenient is actually better in the long run/on a system scale, these sorts of proposals are just fantasy. 

180 to this day remains a big source of variability in involved services, and whether it's from an investment or routing perspective, I'd love to see it studied again -- these are the  and , some of the system's busiest lines, after all. With growth in the South Bronx, you likely could not implement 7tph local service without serious operational and rider effects, but there are other ways to cut the pie, so to speak. 

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

This is interesting. The above posted photo of the board book narrative suggests that 180-3/149 preferred Lex over 7th. Was this something they obfuscated? I had also heard that folks from WPR frequently had destinations in that 180-149 stretch. Is that true?

Generally, the political game played in these sorts of service changes speaks to the impossibility of running a transit system. Operationally, there is very much a better and worse way to run the trains, and for cost and overall service quality reasons, it should be a priority that those patterns are achieved -- provided mitigations exist for any/all knock on effects. But as TM5 says, the MTA is very much a political entity, so unless the agency can articulate to all stakeholders why something that may seem inconvenient is actually better in the long run/on a system scale, these sorts of proposals are just fantasy. 

180 to this day remains a big source of variability in involved services, and whether it's from an investment or routing perspective, I'd love to see it studied again -- these are the  and , some of the system's busiest lines, after all. With growth in the South Bronx, you likely could not implement 7tph local service without serious operational and rider effects, but there are other ways to cut the pie, so to speak. 

Gotta remember that there were wholesale changes in the ridership dynamic between the mid eighties and 2000. Where south of East Tremont Avenue down to Simpson Street and beyond once stood abandoned apartment buildings there was a revitalization of the area with one family dwellings instead. I’d guess the midday mix of s/b ridership was evenly spread between east and west side destinations. The other factor that is historically overlooked is that, from the north WPR side, the whole thing was catered for East Side ridership. 241  St, Gun Hill Road ( Upper and Lower) , the original Dyre Shuttle, Pelham, Parkchester, Freeman St . Right or wrong the common denominator is obvious to me. The only 7th Avenue service came from the old 180th St Bronx Park station. South of Jackson Avenue there was a connection to the 149th St el station and the Bergen Bypass for Freeman St Second Avenue el service. I’d say that the IRT Bronx service was geared towards Lexington Avenue service even after the Lenox Avenue extension of the subway to the Bronx. That’s always been my take on the ridership dynamic up there. Just my opinion though because my personal family history is geared toward Brooklyn and I’ve had to talk to lifelong Bronx people to try to formulate my Bronx theory. It never hurts to converse with those who lived and worked on that end. Carry on.

[RR503]

5 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Gotta remember that there were wholesale changes in the ridership dynamic between the mid eighties and 2000. Where south of East Tremont Avenue down to Simpson Street and beyond once stood abandoned apartment buildings there was a revitalization of the area with one family dwellings instead. I’d guess the midday mix of s/b ridership was evenly spread between east and west side destinations. The other factor that is historically overlooked is that, from the north WPR side, the whole thing was catered for East Side ridership. 241  St, Gun Hill Road ( Upper and Lower) , the original Dyre Shuttle, Pelham, Parkchester, Freeman St . Right or wrong the common denominator is obvious to me. The only 7th Avenue service came from the old 180th St Bronx Park station. South of Jackson Avenue there was a connection to the 149th St el station and the Bergen Bypass for Freeman St Second Avenue el service. I’d say that the IRT Bronx service was geared towards Lexington Avenue service even after the Lenox Avenue extension of the subway to the Bronx. That’s always been my take on the ridership dynamic up there. Just my opinion though because my personal family history is geared toward Brooklyn and I’ve had to talk to lifelong Bronx people to try to formulate my Bronx theory. It never hurts to converse with those who lived and worked on that end. Carry on.

Oh yes, historically pretty much everything (and everyone) ended up on the East one way or another. But just as the various housing programs of the 80s and 90s revitalized the South Bronx, dynamics in Midtown are changing too. There's a lot of office development taking place on the West Side, which has had the effect of increasing  volumes. Outside the corridor, changes in ridership, loading and signalling patterns are putting a lot of stress on areas that were not as bottlenecked 10 or 20 years ago (ex: the Fulton-BG area on Lex). This is to say nothing, of course, of the future operational complexities that come with CBTC interacting with merges. Not necessarily saying that a  flip is a good idea, just that it may be worth recontextualizing routing patterns and investment needs in today's system given the plethora of knock-on system-scale effects produced.