Jump to content


Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
Deucey

Why is 5 the Bx Express instead of 2?

Recommended Posts

Question triggered by this tweet: 

 

 

So I'm getting read to answer, then I look at the track map: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_west_3.png

Because <5> has to cross (2) to get on or off the express track on WPR Line, and (2) wouldn't, why is (5) the Bronx express instead of (2)? And is there any other reason than bureaucrats in staffing that make it so (2) and (5) have to swap Bronx terminals on weekends right now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've wondered the same thing myself. Uptown (2) trains are always delayed at East 180th Street, waiting for the (5) to cross in front and then over to the Dyre Avenue track. If i'm not mistaken, the MTA actually considered making the (2) the WPR express back in the '90s, but community intervention put a stop to it.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Deucey said:

So I'm getting read to answer, then I look at the track map: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_west_3.png

Because <5> has to cross (2) to get on or off the express track on WPR Line, and (2) wouldn't, why is (5) the Bronx express instead of (2)? And is there any other reason than bureaucrats in staffing that make it so (2) and (5) have to swap Bronx terminals on weekends right now?

From a logistical standpoint, the (2) absolutely should be the express route, but community opposition shot it down. 

The (2) and (5) swap Bronx terminals because the Dyre Ave and Wakefield crews are accustomed to running to only Bowling Green / South Ferry and Brooklyn College, respectively when regular service is running. Think of it as the (5) is running to Downtown Manhattan via 7 Ave and the (2) is running into Brooklyn via Lex Ave, except the rollsigns are reversed so riders don't get confused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Deucey said:

Question triggered by this tweet: 

 

 

So I'm getting read to answer, then I look at the track map: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_west_3.png

Because <5> has to cross (2) to get on or off the express track on WPR Line, and (2) wouldn't, why is (5) the Bronx express instead of (2)? And is there any other reason than bureaucrats in staffing that make it so (2) and (5) have to swap Bronx terminals on weekends right now?

Short answer: the riders want it that way.

Longer answer: The MTA actually wanted to switch the Bronx express designation back in 2000. After the proposal came out, riders on Dyre Ave were up in arms at the loss of peak direction express service, so much so that they got the local officials involved to retain the current service. Most Dyre Ave riders are heading straight to Manhattan, whereas the majority of upper White Plains Rd riders are intra-borough travelers. The <5> runs to/from Nereid Av provide that express service for those looking for it.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Lance said:

Short answer: the riders want it that way.

Longer answer: The MTA actually wanted to switch the Bronx express designation back in 2000. After the proposal came out, riders on Dyre Ave were up in arms at the loss of peak direction express service, so much so that they got the local officials involved to retain the current service. Most Dyre Ave riders are heading straight to Manhattan, whereas the majority of upper White Plains Rd riders are intra-borough travelers. The <5> runs to/from Nereid Av provide that express service for those looking for it.

Still don’t get why they worried about whether it was <5> or (2) express up there, unless Dyre folks have a preference for Lex and Wakefield for Broadway.

It’s not like the terminals couldn’t be switched...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dyre Ave riders lean more toward Lexington Ave, at least according to my observations over the years. I've seen the majority of riders stay on (5) trains out of Dyre Av all the way to 125 Street and points beyond.

Edited by Lance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I think the northern terminal swap is stupid, I still see why they did it. It's better then to have the (2) run via Lex and the (5) via 7th Av, which would just cause major confusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also keep in mind that lower WPR 'prefers' (2) service, creating yet another group angered by such proposals. 

Regardless, it's really time they did something about E180 merge. The (2) and (5) lines are some of the worst performing in the system, and their having to cross paths at E180 like it's some backwoods branchline isn't helping anyone. Either they should rebuild the Dyre connection to come down between 1/M and M/2, or they should just suffer the political pushback and make the (2) express. Yes, Dyre's ridership (which is, honestly, tiny) will get local'ed, and yes WPR upper will lose their one seat ride to Freeman Street or whatever, but everyone else on the (2) and (5) lines will benefit from more reliable service. Greatest good for the greatest number. 

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

While I think the northern terminal swap is stupid, I still see why they did it. It's better then to have the (2) run via Lex and the (5) via 7th Av, which would just cause major confusion.

 

5 hours ago, Caelestor said:

The (2) and (5) swap Bronx terminals because the Dyre Ave and Wakefield crews are accustomed to running to only Bowling Green / South Ferry and Brooklyn College, respectively when regular service is running. Think of it as the (5) is running to Downtown Manhattan via 7 Ave and the (2) is running into Brooklyn via Lex Ave, except the rollsigns are reversed so riders don't get confused.

They used to do it like that, and yes,swapping trunk lines is more confusing.

So what did they do; swap (2) and (5) crews so that they still go to their regular terminals?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Eric B said:

 

They used to do it like that, and yes,swapping trunk lines is more confusing.

So what did they do; swap (2) and (5) crews so that they still go to their regular terminals?

Internally, this is the route:

(2) - 241st St to Flatbush Av via Lexington Av Express (although hardly ANY train has ran express on Lex the past few weekends smh...) and Eastern Pkwy Local.

(5) - Dyre Av to South Ferry via 7th Avenue Local - Broadway Express.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, RR503 said:

Also keep in mind that lower WPR 'prefers' (2) service, creating yet another group angered by such proposals. 

Regardless, it's really time they did something about E180 merge. The (2) and (5) lines are some of the worst performing in the system, and their having to cross paths at E180 like it's some backwoods branchline isn't helping anyone. Either they should rebuild the Dyre connection to come down between 1/M and M/2, or they should just suffer the political pushback and make the (2) express. Yes, Dyre's ridership (which is, honestly, tiny) will get local'ed, and yes WPR upper will lose their one seat ride to Freeman Street or whatever, but everyone else on the (2) and (5) lines will benefit from more reliable service. Greatest good for the greatest number. 

Greatest good doesn't work when the bulk of riders are transferring at E 180 Street or 3 Avenue for express or local service because nobody likes the proposed service, hence the current setup. The problem is that when the flying junction was built in the '50s, the (5) was the primary White Plains Rd line, running from 241 Street at all times. Peak direction service along the line was not impacted by the connection as the (2) ran to/from Dyre Av.

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lance said:

Greatest good doesn't work when the bulk of riders are transferring at E 180 Street or 3 Avenue for express or local service because nobody likes the proposed service, hence the current setup. The problem is that when the flying junction was built in the '50s, the (5) was the primary White Plains Rd line, running from 241 Street at all times. Peak direction service along the line was not impacted by the connection as the (2) ran to/from Dyre Av.

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

I can strongly agree with Lance. The crowding will be too much at E 180 Street, and a nightmare at 3 Av-149 St. Why? Because the latter station is the second-busiest stop in the Bronx, and adding more crowding will only make it worse. I also trust his experience of being a former daily commuter off of the (5)

Long story short, it's because of customer preference. Operationally it seems good to make the (5) local, but ridership-wise only negates it. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lance said:

Greatest good doesn't work when the bulk of riders are transferring at E 180 Street or 3 Avenue for express or local service because nobody likes the proposed service, hence the current setup. The problem is that when the flying junction was built in the '50s, the (5) was the primary White Plains Rd line, running from 241 Street at all times. Peak direction service along the line was not impacted by the connection as the (2) ran to/from Dyre Av.

That’s my point — the world doesn’t end at the Harlem River. Yes, the Bronx may suffer, but the rest of the city will benefit. 

And yes, I’m aware of the history. What I’m saying is that if this service pattern is gonna be preserved, the MTA needs to reconfigure the junction to make it so that the (2) and (5) do not conflict. 

1 hour ago, Lance said:

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

Rankings:

Dyre — 326

Baychester — 344

Gun Hill — 293 

Pelham Parkway — 372

Morris Park — 391

Not a single station breaks the top half of stations in terms of ridership, and only one is in the top 2/3. Any crowding observed is a result of unreliability — an issue this swap would solve. 

Edited by RR503
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lance said:

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

What about the rest of the day?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, RR503 said:

That’s my point — the world doesn’t end at the Harlem River. Yes, the Bronx may suffer, but the rest of the city will benefit. 

And yes, I’m aware of the history. What I’m saying is that if this service pattern is gonna be preserved, the MTA needs to reconfigure the junction to make it so that the (2) and (5) do not conflict. 

Rankings:

Dyre — 326

Baychester — 344

Gun Hill — 293 

Pelham Parkway — 372

Morris Park — 391

Not a single station breaks the top half of stations in terms of ridership, and only one is in the top 2/3. Any crowding observed is a result of unreliability — an issue this swap would solve. 

Interesting. Sure didn't feel like that when I took the trains.

As for swapping the routes, I'd say go for it. I don't know if this will get any more traction than it did back in 2000, but if you catch the ear of some local official, more power to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't let the low rankings of Dyre Av stations fool you. The vast majority of those boardings are Southbound during the AM Rush when only 7 TPH are running on the Dyre. The (5) from Dyre fills up very quickly. Most cars have 75-80 passengers on them entering East 180th (AM Rush only) which is way too much considering the crowding the (5) will end up seeing further along the route. If only there were someway to run more than 7 TPH from Dyre Av in the morning the (5) wouldn't be so bad. It's sad that folks who ride the the (5) in mid-afternoon to head to Manhattan get more frequent service than a peak traveler. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

Don't let the low rankings of Dyre Av stations fool you. The vast majority of those boardings are Southbound during the AM Rush when only 7 TPH are running on the Dyre. The (5) from Dyre fills up very quickly. Most cars have 75-80 passengers on them entering East 180th (AM Rush only) which is way too much considering the crowding the (5) will end up seeing further along the route. If only there were someway to run more than 7 TPH from Dyre Av in the morning the (5) wouldn't be so bad. It's sad that folks who ride the the (5) in mid-afternoon to head to Manhattan get more frequent service than a peak traveler. 

You know. I've always thought the very same thing. It's really strange. Are those (5) trains to or from Nereid really needed at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

You know. I've always thought the very same thing. It's really strange. Are those (5) trains to or from Nereid really needed at all?

They're political dogbones for upper WPR folks, and a jury-rigged way for the MTA to avoid some merge delays. They also facilitate a few put-ins from Westchester Yard IIRC. 

It'd be fascinating to get the numbers on their ridership. 

 

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder wouldn't it make sense to have the headways for the (2) to South Ferry 12 minutes with the 5 8 minutes. Usually, during the weekends, the wait can be 5 minutes then the next train could be 16 minutes for the (5)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, RR503 said:

They're political dogbones for upper WPR folks, and a jury-rigged way for the MTA to avoid some merge delays. They also facilitate a few put-ins from Westchester Yard IIRC. 

It'd be fascinating to get the numbers on their ridership. 

Understandable. But if trains originating at Dyre Avenue during the AM Rush easily get super crowded before reaching East 180th Street, then they might as well have most of the trains originate at Dyre Avenue instead of about half of them like the split (A) currently does.

Nevertheless, I agree that the junction north of East 180th Street does causes some delays when service on both the (2) and (5) combined is more frequent during both AM and PM Rushes (like for example in the PM Rush when a Eastchester-bound (5) express and Wakefield-bound (2) local arrive at East 180th Street at the same time but only one of them can depart from the station before the other does or vice-versa in the AM Rush when a Manhattan-bound (5) express and a Manhattan-bound (2) local are almost to East 180th Street but only one of them can proceed first). It sucks but what can we do.

No wonder why that's part of the reason alternate trains originate or terminate at Nereid Avenue in the peak direction.

 

Edited by Jemorie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main problem during the weekends is that the (2) and (5) constantly merge in front of each other at East 180th St

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There shouldn't be any AM problems at E180 unless a Nereid (5) and a Dyre (5) arrive at the same time. The (2) uses B lead during the AM rush so that it leaves tk 2 available to both (5) services. A (2) and a Dyre (5) can both come into E180 at the same time with no interference. 

PMs is another story. At the least, if a (2) and a Nereid (5) arrive at the same time, make the connection and then the (5) can stay in the middle to Gun Hill. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/29/2018 at 8:20 PM, Lawrence St said:

While I think the northern terminal swap is stupid, I still see why they did it. It's better then to have the (2) run via Lex and the (5) via 7th Av, which would just cause major confusion.

I would assume it's because ridership is higher on the WPR line, so that's the line that receives the direct Brooklyn-bound service.

17 hours ago, Lance said:

Greatest good doesn't work when the bulk of riders are transferring at E 180 Street or 3 Avenue for express or local service because nobody likes the proposed service, hence the current setup. The problem is that when the flying junction was built in the '50s, the (5) was the primary White Plains Rd line, running from 241 Street at all times. Peak direction service along the line was not impacted by the connection as the (2) ran to/from Dyre Av.

Also, Dyre Ave ridership is hardly tiny. In the rush hours, those trains are packed before they hit E 180 Street.

Probably has something to do with the fact that the train is receiving only half the normal amount of service. 

14 hours ago, RR503 said:

They're political dogbones for upper WPR folks, and a jury-rigged way for the MTA to avoid some merge delays. They also facilitate a few put-ins from Westchester Yard IIRC. 

It'd be fascinating to get the numbers on their ridership. 

 

I remember a thread where somebody mentioned a ridiculously late <5> train to Nereid that they benefitted from (they got a direct express ride to Gun Hill & WPR long after the PM rush ended) and a T/O mentioned that in the AM rush, those are the trains that make up (5) service for the midday, while in the PM, it's the opposite (the Dyre line receives priority because those trains turn around and make up service for the rest of the evening). So that means in the interests of preserving the rest of the service, they might hold those <5> trains to let other trains pass in front, sometimes for a long time (in this case, I remember the poster mentioned it was 8:42pm and the last train is scheduled to arrive at 125th at 6:43pm) 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t see what does the (2) and (5) Bronx terminal swap has anything to do with ridership on upper WPR...not when they now get service every 12 minutes while Dyre gets service every 8 minutes, which honestly makes no sense at all to me.

Even the Flatbush branch gets service every 12 minutes instead of every 8 minutes. The weekend (2)(3), (4) and (5) all need to run either every 8 minutes or every 10 minutes as well as after the Clark Street Repairs are finished.

Edited by Jemorie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Jemorie said:

I don’t see what does the (2) and (5) Bronx terminal swap has anything to do with ridership on upper WPR...not when they now get service every 12 minutes while Dyre gets service every 8 minutes, which honestly makes no sense at all to me.

Even the Flatbush branch gets service every 12 minutes instead of every 8 minutes. The weekend (2)(3), (4) and (5) all need to run either every 8 minutes or every 10 minutes as well as after the Clark Street Repairs are finished.

Agreed. The (2) train on weekends is especially horrible. They are PACKED before they even finish in the Bronx. Just imagine if there was no BxM11 which is used heavily in Pelham Parkway. Those trains would be a mess. They would have to start some trains at Pelham Parkway which is what they should do if possible and perhaps at 3rd Avenue-149th street as well.

What hasn't been mentioned here is the Bronx has experienced sizable population growth, especially along the (2)(5) line. Everyone is running to neighborhoods with subway service which is exacerbating the problem. Neighborhoods like Williamsbridge with their quality of life issues still offer one of the least beacons of "cheap" rents that are becoming harder and harder to find, especially near subway lines. Pelham Parkway has become quite expensive and part of that is because of the subway. More people working in Manhattan in order to pay the high rents.

All of these neighorhoods are changing and bringing more people to them... More housing being built, yet the (MTA) is not matching the service needs of these areas and it's a big problem.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.