Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

[RR503]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah right. We're dealing with the  here. You know the deal... lol

And snipping an important under-river crossing will be easier...?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Not necessarily. You can get away with performing a reroute while STILL deinterlining Broadway. The  is also putting dwell times as a long term problem, saying that the R211s will replace the R46s in a couple of years... a lot of people will die before that happens.

 

2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Not really. He suggested a lot of short-term fixes (at least shouldn't require years worth of work), but the main problem is how to do it and when the  will actually do them.

But with this possible  split, it may get a little tricky to implement them. By cutting the  or any Broadway Local service out of the Montague Tunnel, you either have to base Broadway Local trains in Queens or do long yard moves to Coney Island. If you reroute the  to 2nd Avenue (especially if we do get SAS Phase 2 up and running), then you have to replace it with either additional  trains or the . In the Proposals thread, many of us posted or agreed to running the  or another Nassau St service as a part time, complementary line to the . But that meant retaining the  in Montague (a  new Lower Manhattan Tunnel is for another discussion). Some alternative ideas called for cutting the  at Whitehall and having a full time  replace it in Brooklyn. That’s a relatively easy service change to make, though it would not be localized to the 4th Ave line and Lower Manhattan, like the K/R split I proposed on page 2 in this thread.

But with a Nassau service taking over as either the sole or primary 4th Ave local train, you’d have to figure out where in Queens you’re going to store and service  and  trains. Because if they both don’t go to Brooklyn, then there will be lots of extra miles put on those cars getting them either to Jamaica or CI Yard.

Edited February 22, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Bay Ridge Express]

47 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But with this possible  split, it may get a little tricky to implement them. By cutting the  or any Broadway Local service out of the Montague Tunnel, you either have to base Broadway Local trains in Queens or do long yard moves to Coney Island. If you reroute the  to 2nd Avenue (especially if we do get SAS Phase 2 up and running), then you have to replace it with either additional  trains or the . In the Proposals thread, many of us posted or agreed to running the  or another Nassau St service as a part time, complementary line to the . But that meant retaining the  in Montague (a  new Lower Manhattan Tunnel is for another discussion). Some alternative ideas called for cutting the  at Whitehall and having a full time  replace it in Brooklyn. That’s a relatively easy service change to make, though it would not be localized to the 4th Ave line and Lower Manhattan, like the K/R split I proposed on page 2 in this thread.

But with a Nassau service taking over as either the sole or primary 4th Ave local train, you’d have to figure out where in Queens you’re going to store and service  and  trains. Because if they both don’t go to Brooklyn, then there will be lots of extra miles put on those cars getting them either to Jamaica or CI Yard.

I came up with this:

Bay Ridge-Essex St  

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Nassau St Local

Sea Beach-SAS 

Sea Beach Local

4 Av Express (via Bridge)

Broadway Express

2 Av Local

West End/Sea Beach-Astoria 

West End/Sea Beach Local

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Broadway Local

Astoria Local

Whitehall-Forest Hills 

Broadway Local

Queens Blvd Local

 same

 

This way, even if the  doesn't go to Coney Island it can still easily access Jamaica yard, and the  should be able to access Coney Island yard easily as well. The troubling thing here is the  will need to have some extra mileage... I don't know the specifics but a lot of people have been suggesting the  to Nassau as a split  , how it will access a yard (likely Coney Island) is uncertain. However, its route will be short so it might not be that bad.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Bay Ridge Express

[Wallyhorse]

10 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I came up with this:

Bay Ridge-Essex St  

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Nassau St Local

Sea Beach-SAS 

Sea Beach Local

4 Av Express (via Bridge)

Broadway Express

2 Av Local

West End/Sea Beach-Astoria 

West End/Sea Beach Local

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Broadway Local

Astoria Local

Whitehall-Forest Hills 

Broadway Local

Queens Blvd Local

 same

 

This way, even if the  doesn't go to Coney Island it can still easily access Jamaica yard, and the  should be able to access Coney Island yard easily as well. The troubling thing here is the  will need to have some extra mileage... I don't know the specifics but a lot of people have been suggesting the  to Nassau as a split  , how it will access a yard (likely Coney Island) is uncertain. However, its route will be short so it might not be that bad.

This might work, but many old-timers would vehemently protest the  being moved off Bay Ridge (I have in the past suggested moving the  off Bay Ridge as part of a move back to Astoria in other forums and old-timers go on about how that can't be done because of old-time reasons.   That was one reason my version left the  unchanged.

You'd need to bring this new "Brown " up to as many TPH as the  was.   

Also, where would the go in all of this?  Back to being the Brighton Express like it once was? 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

16 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I came up with this:

Bay Ridge-Essex St  

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Nassau St Local

Sea Beach-SAS 

Sea Beach Local

4 Av Express (via Bridge)

Broadway Express

2 Av Local

West End/Sea Beach-Astoria 

West End/Sea Beach Local

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Broadway Local

Astoria Local

Whitehall-Forest Hills 

Broadway Local

Queens Blvd Local

 same

 

This way, even if the  doesn't go to Coney Island it can still easily access Jamaica yard, and the  should be able to access Coney Island yard easily as well. The troubling thing here is the  will need to have some extra mileage... I don't know the specifics but a lot of people have been suggesting the  to Nassau as a split  , how it will access a yard (likely Coney Island) is uncertain. However, its route will be short so it might not be that bad.

Yes, whether the  is based in ENY or Coney Island, the trains will have to put on extra mileage to get there. But that will be an issue with pretty much any train that serves Bay Ridge and is based in Brooklyn, unless MTA finally makes a decision to store revenue trains in 38th St Yard (MTA really needs to shit or get off the pot on this!). My concern over splitting the  between West End and Sea Beach is that it will likely be a confusing service, both for the riders and the crews. Also, for the West End ’s, you’ll have to reinstate the 36th Street merge that the  and  had until 2010. I’m assuming the  will still run over West End. 

@Wallyhorse From what I’ve been reading, not just over the past three days, but also in the past, I get the feeling the Bay Ridge community doesn’t have quite the same positive feelings for the letter R, that Middle Village and Ridgewood have/had for the letter M (which is why since 2010, we’ve had the current  service instead of the  going there). For all we really know, there might be “old-timers” in Bay Ridge who are so disgusted by the poor performance of the  train, that they might prefer to make a clean break and want a newer or better service. As for the old time “railfans” who post elsewhere, if they actually live in Bay Ridge, take the  regularly and have an overall positive experience with it, then they should bring that up with Congressman Rose, Councilman Branner, et al. Maybe they can come up with some sort of compromise, like the plan I suggested on Page 2 in this thread, where the Forest Hills-Whitehall segment of the current  is still called the , the Brooklyn segment is rerouted to Essex via the Nassau St Line and renamed the  and the weekdays-only  runs through Montague to Bay Ridge to supplement the  and make yard moves over the  line as needed to get to Coney Island Yard. Because the  would still be a weekdays-only service, I’m still not convinced that it’s “a no-go” and I’ve already explained why.

Edited February 23, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Bay Ridge Express]

9 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Also, where would the go in all of this?  Back to being the Brighton Express like it once was? 

 

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

My concern over splitting the  between West End and Sea Beach is that it will likely be a confusing service, both for the riders and the crews. Also, for the West End ’s, you’ll have to reinstate the 36th Street merge that the  and  had until 2010. I’m assuming the  will still run over West End. 

I should have been more clear. I wrote "West End/Sea Beach" because whether the new  would go to West End (to 9 Av, Bay Pkwy, etc.) or Sea Beach (Bay Pkwy, 86 St, etc.) would be dependent on the communities there and what they would want to have. Since there are some  trains that already goes to Sea Beach during rush hours though, I'd say to have the  go to West End and reinstate that 36 St  and  merge, with the  still running over West End. But like I said in an earlier post, we can reroute trains all we want but if we improve our infrastructure that's when the  will really shine. I know some Sea Beach residents that are disgusted with the  and it's shameful lol.

[Around the Horn]

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

As for the old time “railfans” who post elsewhere, if they actually live in Bay Ridge, take the  regularly and have an overall positive experience with it, then they should bring that up with Congressman Rose, Councilman Branner, et al. 

THANK YOU! It's about time someone said that.

[Wallyhorse]

2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

@Wallyhorse From what I’ve been reading, not just over the past three days, but also in the past, I get the feeling the Bay Ridge community doesn’t have quite the same positive feelings for the letter R, that Middle Village and Ridgewood have/had for the letter M (which is why since 2010, we’ve had the current  service instead of the  going there). For all we really know, there might be “old-timers” in Bay Ridge who are so disgusted by the poor performance of the  train, that they might prefer to make a clean break and want a newer or better service. As for the old time “railfans” who post elsewhere, if they actually live in Bay Ridge, take the  regularly and have an overall positive experience with it, then they should bring that up with Congressman Rose, Councilman Branner, et al. Maybe they can come up with some sort of compromise, like the plan I suggested on Page 2 in this thread, where the Forest Hills-Whitehall segment of the current  is still called the , the Brooklyn segment is rerouted to Essex via the Nassau St Line and renamed the  and the weekdays-only  runs through Montague to Bay Ridge to supplement the  and make yard moves over the  line as needed to get to Coney Island Yard. Because the  would still be a weekdays-only service, I’m still not convinced that it’s “a no-go” and I’ve already explained why.

Your reasoning is sound and I agree with you.  Whether its a new to Essex or the return of the old (slightly expanded) "Brown " there (with whatever runs to Jamaica doing so under a new letter if the is moved to the Eastern Division) IMO, something has to be done 
 

6 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I should have been more clear. I wrote "West End/Sea Beach" because whether the new  would go to West End (to 9 Av, Bay Pkwy, etc.) or Sea Beach (Bay Pkwy, 86 St, etc.) would be dependent on the communities there and what they would want to have. Since there are some  trains that already goes to Sea Beach during rush hours though, I'd say to have the  go to West End and reinstate that 36 St  and  merge, with the  still running over West End. But like I said in an earlier post, we can reroute trains all we want but if we improve our infrastructure that's when the  will really shine. I know some Sea Beach residents that are disgusted with the  and it's shameful lol.

My thinking here would be if the runs on West End, it should be 24/7 on the West End between Coney Island and 71st-Continental (eliminating the need for the to be a QB local late nights).  Doing that, however, you'd need at least the same number of  /  trains running from 95th as the  does now if that is the sole line to 95th,  

[LGA Link N Train]

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Yes, whether the  is based in ENY or Coney Island, the trains will have to put on extra mileage to get there. But that will be an issue with pretty much any train that serves Bay Ridge and is based in Brooklyn, unless MTA finally makes a decision to store revenue trains in 38th St Yard (MTA really needs to shit or get off the pot on this!).

To shed some light on this, The is planning to convert 36th-38th Street Yard to allow space for revenue trains. you can find it in the capital dashboard site, though you might have to do some digging in order to find it.

 

Anyways, as a response to an onging discussion in this thread, As long as a certain train service takes people where they need to/desire to go, then its route designation doesn't matter that much. For what I know, people (say Bay Ridge residents for example) headed for Downtown Manhattan don't care if the route that gets them there is called or  or even . As long as they get to downtown Manhattan, that's all they care about

[MysteriousBtrain]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

THANK YOU! It's about time someone said that.

I don't even have to live in bay ridge and I understand it. When I am in Staten Island and return to the city via 86 st, it's usually a 10-20 minute wait.

The last few years I did rely on the elsewhere and it's a bit annoying to wait this long, especially if the is the only line in the area.

Edited February 23, 2019 by MysteriousBtrain

[T to Dyre Avenue]

7 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Your reasoning is sound and I agree with you.  Whether its a new to Essex or the return of the old (slightly expanded) "Brown " there (with whatever runs to Jamaica doing so under a new letter if the is moved to the Eastern Division) IMO, something has to be done 

If it turns out they really do have some sort of preference to keep the letter R, even if the line is rerouted to a different Manhattan trunk, much like the way Middle Village/Ridgewood residents wanted to keep the letter M, then yes, I’d be open to that. I’m negotiable to the letters being used differently from the way I proposed.

7 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

To shed some light on this, The is planning to convert 36th-38th Street Yard to allow space for revenue trains. you can find it in the capital dashboard site, though you might have to do some digging in order to find it.

 

Anyways, as a response to an onging discussion in this thread, As long as a certain train service takes people where they need to/desire to go, then its route designation doesn't matter that much. For what I know, people (say Bay Ridge residents for example) headed for Downtown Manhattan don't care if the route that gets them there is called or  or even . As long as they get to downtown Manhattan, that's all they care about

If they don’t care about the letter of the service (unlike Middle Village/Ridgewood), then that’s great too.

Glad to know they are taking action to convert 36th-38th Street Yard. Maybe then, the so-called lack of a yard for an Astoria-Bay Ridge  train will no longer be an issue.  

[Bay Ridge Express]

20 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

@Wallyhorse From what I’ve been reading, not just over the past three days, but also in the past, I get the feeling the Bay Ridge community doesn’t have quite the same positive feelings for the letter R, that Middle Village and Ridgewood have/had for the letter M (which is why since 2010, we’ve had the current  service instead of the  going there). For all we really know, there might be “old-timers” in Bay Ridge who are so disgusted by the poor performance of the  train, that they might prefer to make a clean break and want a newer or better service. As for the old time “railfans” who post elsewhere, if they actually live in Bay Ridge, take the  regularly and have an overall positive experience with it, then they should bring that up with Congressman Rose, Councilman Branner, et al. Maybe they can come up with some sort of compromise, like the plan I suggested on Page 2 in this thread, where the Forest Hills-Whitehall segment of the current  is still called the , the Brooklyn segment is rerouted to Essex via the Nassau St Line and renamed the  and the weekdays-only  runs through Montague to Bay Ridge to supplement the  and make yard moves over the  line as needed to get to Coney Island Yard. Because the  would still be a weekdays-only service, I’m still not convinced that it’s “a no-go” and I’ve already explained why.

Me personally, I say call it the  , call it an extended  , a  or a  , even a  ... as long as we have some sort of reliable service, I'm fine with it (although admittedly it would be cool to see a Nassau line run there).

Edited February 24, 2019 by Bay Ridge Express

[W4ST]

This was brought up by other people here before but I would like to put it back into discussion: cutting  service to 5 tph due to adding CBTC is probably having a negative impact on  service right now. I have heard multiple complaints about long waits this weekend. They should consider what other people in this group have proposed when these service changes occur that involve cutting QBL service to 15 tph total: ending the  at Queens Plaza, raising the  to 7.5 tph each and raising the  to 6 or 7.5 tph, and running the  or  local when they are not running on the same track.

[Q Broadway Express]

On 2/21/2019 at 6:38 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

How often is the scheduled to run on weekdays and scheduled to run on weekends currently?

I am inquiring about daytime service here.

I think nights is every twenty minutes.

[Jemorie]

1 hour ago, Q Broadway Express said:

How often is the scheduled to run on weekdays and scheduled to run on weekends currently?

I am inquiring about daytime service here.

I think nights is every twenty minutes.

6 minutes, rush hours

10 minutes, middays

12 minutes, weekends

20 minutes, nights

You can check the printed schedules online or the trip planner on the MTA’s official website at MTA.info

[Q Broadway Express]

3 hours ago, Jemorie said:

6 minutes, rush hours

10 minutes, middays

12 minutes, weekends

20 minutes, nights

You can check the printed schedules online or the trip planner on the MTA’s official website at MTA.info

Thank you Jemorie. I appreciate the tip.

[Wallyhorse]

6 hours ago, W4ST said:

This was brought up by other people here before but I would like to put it back into discussion: cutting  service to 5 tph due to adding CBTC is probably having a negative impact on  service right now. I have heard multiple complaints about long waits this weekend. They should consider what other people in this group have proposed when these service changes occur that involve cutting QBL service to 15 tph total: ending the  at Queens Plaza, raising the  to 7.5 tph each and raising the  to 6 or 7.5 tph, and running the  or  local when they are not running on the same track.

I would do something similar, though more on the lines of this:

borrows 160s/179s for the weekend and runs five-car sets from 95th-Essex.  Depending on what was available, those would run in either five or eight car sets.  That solves a myriad of problems.

[Lawrence St]

What was the service pattern during the Mountague closure?

[Q Broadway Express]

13 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

What was the service pattern during the Mountague closure?

@Lawrence St During the Montague Street Tunnel closure, the train ran in two sections on weekdays - Forest Hills to Whitehall Street and Bay Ridge to Court Street. Trains ran every 7-1/2 minutes. Weekends thr train was detoured over the Manny B.

Story; https://www-nydailynews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/mta-major-cuts-train-service-article-1.1363901?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&outputType=amp&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnew-york%2Fbrooklyn%2Fmta-major-cuts-train-service-article-1.1363901%3FoutputType%3Damp%23referrer%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%26amp_tf%3DFrom%20%251%24s%26ampshare%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnew-york%2Fbrooklyn%2Fmta-major-cuts-train-service-article-1.1363901

[Lawrence St]

Just now, Q Broadway Express said:

@Lawrence St During the Montague Street Tunnel closure, the train ran in two sections on weekdays - Forest Hills to Whitehall Street and Bay Ridge to Court Street. Trains ran every 7-1/2 minutes. Weekends thr train was detoured over the Manny B.

Story; https://www-nydailynews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/mta-major-cuts-train-service-article-1.1363901?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&outputType=amp&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnew-york%2Fbrooklyn%2Fmta-major-cuts-train-service-article-1.1363901%3FoutputType%3Damp%23referrer%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%26amp_tf%3DFrom%20%251%24s%26ampshare%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnew-york%2Fbrooklyn%2Fmta-major-cuts-train-service-article-1.1363901

So what served Canal-Whitehall on weekends?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

So what served Canal-Whitehall on weekends?

Nothing. Those stations were closed.

[Q Broadway Express]

2 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Nothing. Those stations were closed.

Thank you.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

10 hours ago, Jemorie said:

6 minutes, rush hours

10 minutes, middays

12 minutes, weekends

20 minutes, nights

You can check the printed schedules online or the trip planner on the MTA’s official website at MTA.info

The  is scheduled to be on 12-minute headways or 5 tph, and yet, the waits for the train often end up being much greater than that. This is not acceptable, nor should it have to be. 

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would do something similar, though more on the lines of this:

borrows 160s/179s for the weekend and runs five-car sets from 95th-Essex.  Depending on what was available, those would run in either five or eight car sets.  That solves a myriad of problems.

This might be one way to gauge whether or not there really is some advantage to running the Bay Ridge/4th Avenue segment of the  to the Nassau St Line. They can gauge whether or not riders like it better before making any kind of permanent change to the full  line.

[Jemorie]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

What was the service pattern during the Mountague closure?

 

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So what served Canal-Whitehall on weekends?

Did you read the article or, better yet, were you already well aware of this from the start before? Lol, just curious to ask.

8 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The  is scheduled to be on 12-minute headways or 5 tph, and yet, the waits for the train often end up being much greater than that. This is not acceptable, nor should it have to be.

All the other lines that the  itself interacts with along its run (including across-platform connections) are also scheduled at that aforementioned headway or tph as well - except for the . And I agree, no line in the system should be treated like that at all. This is a subway we're talking about after all and ridership grows yearly. Everyone is always out and about throughout the day and the  has to step up their game one way or the other.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Agreed. The MTA really needs to step up their game. And they (and the City and State) have got to invest the money to do so. If they run the service on the cheap, then they can’t possibly expect it to run well. You get what you pay for.

Edited February 25, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue