Would An Overnight Bus Network Work For Staten Island (And Eventually NYC)?

[Lil 57]

4 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Nah....

Every bus route out of the ferry do not all depart & leave at the same time.

Depends on the time of day. Overnight, when the ferry pulls in, all of the buses are ready to go.

[Mtatransit]

St George is a pretty good example when everything, somewhat works together. You still see that mad scramble though because sometime the buses leave before the ferry docks.

MTA have traditionally operated buses as separate ROUTES and not SYSTEM as a whole. That is the reason why there are buses with 30,40,50,60 min headway’s at nights and also weird headway’s in Manhattan trunk lines. 

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

Depends on the time of day. Overnight, when the ferry pulls in, all of the buses are ready to go.

The SI Ferry is not a pulse point, regardless of the time of day.

2 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

St George is a pretty good example when everything, somewhat works together. You still see that mad scramble though because sometime the buses leave before the ferry docks.

MTA have traditionally operated buses as separate ROUTES and not SYSTEM as a whole. That is the reason why there are buses with 30,40,50,60 min headway’s at nights and also weird headway’s in Manhattan trunk lines. 

Right..... There is no mad scramble like that at a hub that acts as a pulse point....

[Mtatransit]

6 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The SI Ferry is not a pulse point, regardless of the time of day.

Right..... There is no mad scramble like that at a hub that acts as a pulse point....

The schedules in theory supposed to connect to/from the ferry, assuming everything is on time, I’m looking at late at night that is

However there is no policy to hold buses when the ferry is running late. That probably should change outside of rush hour. 

I heard somewhere that the SI railway holds at St George for 5 min extra if the ferry is running late, not sure if they still do that

Edited March 26, 2019 by Mtatransit

[bobtehpanda]

Running as routes is useful when you get above half-hourly frequency and it's too hard to manage.

Running as a pulse system is better for half hourly or below where the time penalty of missing a bus is too great.

Pulse systems are more often found in smaller transit systems. IIRC when I went to school at Stony Brook, SCT operated a pulse point at Smith Haven Mall.

[Lil 57]

I have made some edits to my proposal for Staten Island's overnight bus network. (You don't have to agree, but I just wanted to share it with you guys.)

S346: St. George to the Amazon facility via Castleton. (every 30 mins)

S348: Current S48 routing with an extension to Newark Airport via the Gothleas Bridge. (every 30 mins) Note: The S98 LTD would turn into a full-time route between St. George and Newark Airport.

S351: Current S51 routing, then S76 routing to Oakwood, to provide overnight service to the New Dorp Beach area. (every 30 mins)

S353: Current S53 routing with an extension to Arlington via Richmond Terrace (S48/98 LTD Terminal). (every 40 mins)

S354: S40 routing from St. George to Broadway, then S54 routing to the New Dorp SIR Station, S54 would also be restored on weekends to at least Seaview Hospital from W. New Brighton. (every 30 mins)

S359: S40 routing to Port Richmond Ave, then S59 routing to Hylan/Richmond, using Marsh Ave instead of Ring Road. (every 30 mins)

S361: Route between the ETC and Port Richmond via the S61 and the S57 routes. (every 60 minutes)

S362: S62 routing to Travis, then hops on the WSE to serve West Shore Plaza and possibly the Hotels on South Ave. (every 30 mins)

S370: South Shore overnight loop. (Not sure what streets to run it on, but it would help South Shore residents get to the SIR and the S374/378 and SIM4N overnights. It can also run when the S55/56 aren’t running if no new full-time South Shore routes come during the redesign.) (every 30-60 mins)

S374: Current S74 routing if the S74 is split at the ETC during the day. (every 30 mins)

S378: Current S78 routing if the S78 is split during the day. Will also take the S52 routing from St. George to Tompkins Ave to cover New Brighton overnight. (every 30 mins)

S379: S79 local routing but runs on Marsh Ave instead of Ring Road. (every 40 mins)

*The SIM1C and a SIM4C/SIM33C combo from Midtown to Huguenot via Gannon/Richmond called the SIM4N would also run overnights with a headway of 60 mins.

 

Another thought: Since the Bx24 only runs to the Pelham Bay Park  train station overnights, maybe the  could extend it over to City Island via the Bx29 overnight to give the isolated City Island overnight service.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Lil 57

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

The schedules in theory supposed to connect to/from the ferry, assuming everything is on time, I’m looking at late at night that is

However there is no policy to hold buses when the ferry is running late. That probably should change outside of rush hour. 

I heard somewhere that the SI railway holds at St George for 5 min extra if the ferry is running late, not sure if they still do that

It does.

Buses also are told to hold for ferries when they’re 5 minutes late. 

[Future ENY OP]

I totally feel that the  needs to do away with the Borough prefixes and utilize a number routing system. 

Now in regards to an overnight bus network. It could possibly work out in Staten Island. However, in the mainland where you have subway service some what outpacing bus service is a bit dicey. To me Brooklyn and Queens are the hardest boroughs to implement an overnight bus network. 

[FamousNYLover]

There's no need to create new routes on existing routes at all, @Lil 57 . It would leave people confuse.  is trying to best to adjust schedules on existing routes.

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by FamousNYLover

[bobtehpanda]

8 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I totally feel that the  needs to do away with the Borough prefixes and utilize a number routing system. 

Now in regards to an overnight bus network. It could possibly work out in Staten Island. However, in the mainland where you have subway service some what outpacing bus service is a bit dicey. To me Brooklyn and Queens are the hardest boroughs to implement an overnight bus network. 

What would be the point of new numbers other than confusion? Most routes only really stay within one borough because of the geography and even Brooklyn and Queens' border, though fuzzy, is hard for bus networks to just snake across due to the lack of straight roads that cut through from north to south.

[Deucey]

11 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I totally feel that the  needs to do away with the Borough prefixes and utilize a number routing system. 

Now in regards to an overnight bus network. It could possibly work out in Staten Island. However, in the mainland where you have subway service some what outpacing bus service is a bit dicey. To me Brooklyn and Queens are the hardest boroughs to implement an overnight bus network. 

I’d rather they keep the prefix but adopt a directional numbering system like LA has. (0-99, to Downtown LA; 100-199, east-west outside downtown, 200-299, north-south outside downtown; 300-399, limited stop; 400-499, express bus to Downtown; 500-599, express bus outside Downtown; 600-699, special shuttle services, 700-799, Rapid Limited Stop; 800-899 - trains and busways).

You got b26, b52, and B54 going to Wyckoff, but B38 in between them going to Catalpa and Linden Hill, but B25 going to Alabama Av...

Then B1-9 in Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst to Coney Island or nearby, then B7 from Flatlands or whatever it’s called to Bushwick intersecting B6 from the shore to New Lots, with the B35 going from Sunset Park to Brownsville while the B32 goes from Marcy Av to LIC with the B37 going from Fort Hamilton to Barclays.

Makes no sense. If I knew all the 20s and 30s went from Downtown to Bushwick or Queens, and the 0-10s went from Downtown to points south - whether the shore or 36th St - it’d make more sense than the current scheme.

[bobtehpanda]

18 hours ago, Deucey said:

I’d rather they keep the prefix but adopt a directional numbering system like LA has. (0-99, to Downtown LA; 100-199, east-west outside downtown, 200-299, north-south outside downtown; 300-399, limited stop; 400-499, express bus to Downtown; 500-599, express bus outside Downtown; 600-699, special shuttle services, 700-799, Rapid Limited Stop; 800-899 - trains and busways).

You got b26, b52, and B54 going to Wyckoff, but B38 in between them going to Catalpa and Linden Hill, but B25 going to Alabama Av...

Then B1-9 in Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst to Coney Island or nearby, then B7 from Flatlands or whatever it’s called to Bushwick intersecting B6 from the shore to New Lots, with the B35 going from Sunset Park to Brownsville while the B32 goes from Marcy Av to LIC with the B37 going from Fort Hamilton to Barclays.

Makes no sense. If I knew all the 20s and 30s went from Downtown to Bushwick or Queens, and the 0-10s went from Downtown to points south - whether the shore or 36th St - it’d make more sense than the current scheme.

With how the bus network layout works, it'd probably be easier to do a sort of Interstate style scheme (odds are north south, evens are east west, grid and all that). Manhattan was renumbered a while back so that the M34 would be on 34th St, the M66 is on 66th St, etc.

I know this doesn't apply to all express buses, but I've always wondered if you could have the express bus numberings tied to the local bus numberings (e.g. the Union Turnpike buses become some sort of QX46 series).

[FLX9304]

On 3/15/2019 at 11:42 PM, Lil 57 said:

I think that it might be beneficial to have an overnight bus network pilot in Staten Island for the . A lot of cities have overnight bus networks that combine portions (and sometimes the entity) of multiple daytime bus routes and provide service to areas during the night at decent frequencies. For Example In SI, overnight routes can be numbered in the S3xx series and run to more places overnight. This can be done during the SI redesign for local buses.

Suggestions for overnight routes:

S346: St. George to the Amazon facility via Castleton. (every 30 mins)

S348: Current S48 routing. (every 30 mins)

S351: Current S51 routing, then S76 routing to Oakwood, to provide overnight service to the New Dorp Beach area. (every 30 mins)

S353: Current S53 routing. (every 40 mins)

S354: S40 routing from St. George to Broadway, then S54 routing to the New Dorp SIR Station, S54 would also be restored on weekends to at least Seaview Hospital from W. New Brighton. (every 30 mins)

S359: S40 routing to Port Richmond Ave, then S59 routing to Hlyan/Richmond, using Marsh Ave instead of Ring Road. (every 30 mins)

S361: Route between the ETC and Port Richmond via the S61 and the S57 routes. (every 60 minutes)

S362: S62 routing to Travis, then hops on the WSE to service West Shore Plaza and possibly the Hotels on South Ave. (every 30 mins)

S374: Current S74 routing if the S74 is split at the ETC during the day. (every 30 mins)

S378: Current S78 routing if the S78 is split during the day. Will also take the S52 routing from St. George to Tompkins Ave to cover New Brighton overnight. (every 30 mins)

S379: S79 local routing, however traveling via the SIM5/6 routes between the ETC and Hylan/Nelson. (Every 40 mins)

*The SIM1C and a SIM4C/SIM33C combo from Midtown to Huguenot via Gannon/Richmond called the SIM4N would also run overnights every 60 mins.

I think you and I got the same idea with the 300 series. But the question is when will NYCTA start using triple digits in The Bronx and Brooklyn? The BC has triple digit routes in BK (100, 103) and in Queens (100-104, 110-114) Staten Island used them before the late 80s changes that all single & triple digits went into double digits. Manhattan has 7 routes in triple digits, so I think NYC is due for bus routes of triple digits. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

10 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

I think you and I got the same idea with the 300 series. But the question is when will NYCTA start using triple digits in The Bronx and Brooklyn? The BC has triple digit routes in BK (100, 103) and in Queens (100-104, 110-114) Staten Island used them before the late 80s changes that all single & triple digits went into double digits. Manhattan has 7 routes in triple digits, so I think NYC is due for bus routes of triple digits. 

Plenty of numbers to use before we reach the 100's, especially with the 80's and 90's.

[Deucey]

4 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

With how the bus network layout works, it'd probably be easier to do a sort of Interstate style scheme (odds are north south, evens are east west, grid and all that). Manhattan was renumbered a while back so that the M34 would be on 34th St, the M66 is on 66th St, etc.

I know this doesn't apply to all express buses, but I've always wondered if you could have the express bus numberings tied to the local bus numberings (e.g. the Union Turnpike buses become some sort of QX46 series).

This would be make more sense than the current scheme of just putting a number after the prefix because it was a Tuesday when they made the route.

I get why SBS routes have the numbers they do, but I don’t get why they do - since having two Bx12s going to two different termini on Fordham might confuse folks who don’t understand one stops at Sedgwick while the other goes to the  and  trains.

[Lil 57]

4 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

I think you and I got the same idea with the 300 series. But the question is when will NYCTA start using triple digits in The Bronx and Brooklyn? The BC has triple digit routes in BK (100, 103) and in Queens (100-104, 110-114) Staten Island used them before the late 80s changes that all single & triple digits went into double digits. Manhattan has 7 routes in triple digits, so I think NYC is due for bus routes of triple digits. 

 

4 minutes ago, Deucey said:

This would be make more sense than the current scheme of just putting a number after the prefix because it was a Tuesday when they made the route.

I get why SBS routes have the numbers they do, but I don’t get why they do - since having two Bx12s going to two different termini on Fordham might confuse folks who don’t understand one stops at Sedgwick while the other goes to the  and  trains.

At the very least, the  should take a page out of Staten Island and number Limited and SBS routes different from their local counterparts. This would make it easier to know what bus is running Limited. (i.e. instead of the B41/B41 LTD, there would be a B41/B91 LTD.)

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

 

At the very least, the  should take a page out of Staten Island and number Limited and SBS routes different from their local counterparts. This would make it easier to know what bus is running Limited. (i.e. instead of the B41/B41 LTD, there would be a B41/B91 LTD.)

I don’t get why they think duplicating bus numbers to distinguish between local and Limited and SBS in the other boroughs makes sense but thought AA and QJ were confusing for trains...

[Lil 57]

2 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I don’t get why they think duplicating bus numbers to distinguish between local and Limited and SBS in the other boroughs makes sense but thought AA and QJ were confusing for trains...

 

Most cities in the US and Canada have different numbers to distinguish between the two. Maybe it'll come up in the borough redesigns.

[R68OnBroadway]

Doesn't SI have a system where all limiteds/SBS routes have distinct numbers from locals? 

[Lil 57]

Just now, R68OnBroadway said:

Doesn't SI have a system where all limiteds/SBS routes have distinct numbers from locals? 

I know, I was talking about the other Boroughs.

[bobtehpanda]

16 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

 

At the very least, the  should take a page out of Staten Island and number Limited and SBS routes different from their local counterparts. This would make it easier to know what bus is running Limited. (i.e. instead of the B41/B41 LTD, there would be a B41/B91 LTD.)

 

14 hours ago, Deucey said:

I don’t get why they think duplicating bus numbers to distinguish between local and Limited and SBS in the other boroughs makes sense but thought AA and QJ were confusing for trains...

I don't think that reading the extra "LIMITED" or "SBS" in the destination board is that much of an additional mental hassle. It says it's a variation of the route in a nice succinct way.

Adding route numbers is a different kind of mental overhead, because especially in the case of limiteds not all buses are limited, or not all limiteds run at all times, so you have to start remembering "the Q43 runs off peak and the Q93 runs the exact route but limited west of Springfield, and only on weekdays during the rush hours, in both directions, but not in the holidays..." and then pretty soon the route guide looks like Wallyhorse's wet dreams.

[Lil 57]

14 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

 

I don't think that reading the extra "LIMITED" or "SBS" in the destination board is that much of an additional mental hassle. It says it's a variation of the route in a nice succinct way.

Adding route numbers is a different kind of mental overhead, because especially in the case of limiteds not all buses are limited, or not all limiteds run at all times, so you have to start remembering "the Q43 runs off peak and the Q93 runs the exact route but limited west of Springfield, and only on weekdays during the rush hours, in both directions, but not in the holidays..." and then pretty soon the route guide looks like Wallyhorse's wet dreams.

That's exactly what they do on Staten Island, and there's no hassle.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

That's exactly what they do on Staten Island, and there's no hassle.

Staten Island has fewer routes than the rest of the city (if you consider limited routes and local routes the same thing)

[B35 via Church]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 7:18 PM, bobtehpanda said:

Running as routes is useful when you get above half-hourly frequency and it's too hard to manage.

Running as a pulse system is better for half hourly or below where the time penalty of missing a bus is too great.

Pulse systems are more often found in smaller transit systems. IIRC when I went to school at Stony Brook, SCT operated a pulse point at Smith Haven Mall.

Which is funny, because even before you start considering service levels, you have to have a hub-based network in place for a pulse system to even commence...

As far as your point w/ SCT, are you sure that wasn't  just individual/certain buses being held to make (whatever) connections? One thing I miss about riding out there is hearing the b/o's interact w/ the dispatcher.... I benefitted quite a bit from those holds in the past when riding in/out of Smith Haven.... I seriously doubt the powers that be, even know what a pulse system is ..... I've never experienced a situation out there (by that, I mean in all of Suffolk County) where at any individual major xfer point, where every single bus all left at the same time.... And basically all of their routes have shit headways too....

I wouldn't say that SCT's operations are small, it just isn't urban.... When I see bus systems like the one in Rockland County, that's when I start thinking, yeah this is small....

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 8:38 AM, Future ENY OP said:

 To me Brooklyn and Queens are the hardest boroughs to implement an overnight bus network. 

Of course it is... Too much land mass, too dense, too many variables to consider.....

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 3:36 PM, bobtehpanda said:

I know this doesn't apply to all express buses, but I've always wondered if you could have the express bus numberings tied to the local bus numberings (e.g. the Union Turnpike buses become some sort of QX46 series).

There's only but so many instances in the entire city where you can pull that off though; best one I can thing of ATM is the B103 w/ a possible "x103"....

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 4:13 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

Plenty of numbers to use before we reach the 100's, especially with the 80's and 90's.

Exactly... I mean we got Judge, Cessa....

...oh wait, we're talking about buses here (LOL!)
(I bring up baseball, because I remember listening to the Michael Kay show a couple years ago, where Kay & some caller was having a heated back & forth about having the Yankees be the first professional team with a player with a 3 digit number.... The context of the discussion was in regards to  the number of jersey numbers they have retired)

16 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Staten Island has fewer routes than the rest of the city (if you consider limited routes and local routes the same thing)

- Limited routes & SBS routes are universal route types.....

- In regards to an S46 vs. an S96 (for example) though, I would have to figure out/research how the 96 differs from the 46 (regardless if they're coupled together or not).

The number of routes in SI's network has no bearing in any of this....
Your point about a mental overhead stands & it is as simple as I just laid it out as being.... It's generally why I'm not a proponent of route renumberings...

Edited March 30, 2019 by B35 via Church

[bobtehpanda]

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Which is funny, because even before you start considering service levels, you have to have a hub-based network in place for a pulse system to even commence...

As far as your point w/ SCT, are you sure that wasn't  just individual/certain buses being held to make (whatever) connections? One thing I miss about riding out there is hearing the b/o's interact w/ the dispatcher.... I benefitted quite a bit from those holds in the past when riding in/out of Smith Haven.... I seriously doubt the powers that be, even know what a pulse system is ..... I've never experienced a situation out there (by that, I mean in all of Suffolk County) where at any individual major xfer point, where every single bus all left at the same time.... And basically all of their routes have shit headways too....

Maybe it wasn't designed to be a pulse (SCT is too busy trying to make a budget out of couch cushions and shoestrings), but hey, all the buses holding every hour is basically a pulse in spirit. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Just because the network right now is mostly-grid shaped doesn't mean there aren't hubs where lots of buses meet (Flushing, Jamaica, QCM, West Farms Square, Fordham Plaza, The Hub, Downtown Brooklyn, WBP,  The Junction; you get the point). When you're down to the overnight hourly/half-hourly that stuff also becomes a lot simpler to coordinate.

Edited March 30, 2019 by bobtehpanda