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Lil 57

Would An Overnight Bus Network Work For Staten Island (And Eventually NYC)?

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

The M35 is one hell of a useless service, as it only goes from Harlem to Randalls Island and back. Not very useful. In addition, the M100 extension has been discussed multiple times. The most recent was a 2012 study for 125th Street: http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/2012-12-03-sbs-125th-workshop-summary.pdf.

My proposal is now revised as to have M100 service between Inwood-220th Street and 2nd Avenue, which is the last stop over the bridge, operate every 4 minutes and service over the bridge to Randalls Island operate every 8 minutes. In other words, SERVICE WOULD ALTERNATE BETWEEN SECOND AVENUE AND RANDALLS ISLAND. This would ensure that service in Washington Heights and Harlem is not affected by traffic over the bridge (I know someone is going to ask me how bridge traffic can affect the M100 with this new extension). However, that aside, the M100 extension to Randalls Island would make service more efficient than the current patter of running a useless Randalls Shuttle (M35) and eliminate problems at 125 and Lex, another issue bought up in 2012. Night service to Randalls can be complimented by M100 shuttles to Amsterdam Avenue.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Those studies (and DOT out of all possible agencies) I tend to take with a grain of salt. They usually don't consider other factors which should be considered. Even though barely anyone pays on that bus, those buses do get consistent loads throughout the day, with artics. In fact, service was added a few years back because the buses were getting too full. Why don't you board the M35 and tell people that the bus is useless? 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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Seems like someone is more interested in drawing lines on a map and making hypothetical fleet rosters without paying attention to what is actually needed or how things work.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

Saves money, also how about the people coming home from work? What if you lived on Richmond Ave and did a late shift in the city and had to pay for a cab to get home every night. That's why an S59 via Richmond Terrace to the ferry would be much better than an S40 running overnight. The western part of the S40 is <10 mins from the S46 and the S48 overnight.

If it's within a borough sure, but as far as a regional focus I don't see it being popular. That should be a subway job. Plus again, Uber and Lyft and other cab services are more popular as it is more direct than a bus or subway line. Plenty (but not a majority) of the poor use Uber all the time especially at night because of this. Even if you have a night shift.

 

There's already the X1 (not gonna say SIM1; X1 was the original and technically did it first). If you want more coverage, expand the SIM3c to overnights too and call it a day.

Edited by MysteriousBtrain

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8 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Even though barely anyone pays on that bus, those buses do get consistent loads throughout the day. In fact, service was added a few years back because the buses were getting too full. Why don't you board the M35 and tell people that the bus is useless?

The M35 and other routes don’t follow the schedule at most times. An M100 extension, even with alternate buses going to the island, would yield more benefits as service would be more frequent if operated every 8 minutes throughout the day, and would eliminate the problematic bus stop at 125 and Lex on the NW corner.

 

In fact, in the link i posted, it clearly mentioned these issues:

  • M35 should be eliminated and the M100 extended to Randall’s Island.
  • M35 has a more detrimental impact on the intersection of Lexington Avenue and 125th Street than the other buses.

By extending the M100, we solve all of those problems. And also, this proposal goes back to 2008, and in the 2012 workshop, COMMUNITY MEMBERS proposed this extension. I just added the overnight shuttles to pick up where these Harlem community members left off.

So this proposal actually provides more benefits, 24/7. Direct service between the (2) and (3) and the other subway lines and Randall’s Island all on one bus, more frequent service, better crowding conditions at 125/Lex, new overnight service to the island, plus NOBODY loses service. Honestly with this extension, there aren’t any negatives here, aside from the bridge traffic, which alternating the buses solves anyway. What’s not to love here about this extension (bought to you by Harlem community members)?

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

There's already the X1 (not gonna say SIM1; X1 was the original and technically did it first). If you want more coverage, expand the SIM3c to overnights too and call it a day.

If you wanted to see 24/7 overnight service on another express route, my SIM4N that I explained at the top of this thread would be a better choice. The SIM3C has many local alternatives while the SIM4N goes on a route with little to no alternatives along the route.

Edited by Lil 57
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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

The M35 and other routes don’t follow the schedule at most times. An M100 extension, even with alternate buses going to the island, would yield more benefits as service would be more frequent if operated every 8 minutes throughout the day, and would eliminate the problematic bus stop at 125 and Lex on the NW corner.

 

In fact, in the link i posted, it clearly mentioned these issues:

  • M35 should be eliminated and the M100 extended to Randall’s Island.
  • M35 has a more detrimental impact on the intersection of Lexington Avenue and 125th Street than the other buses.

By extending the M100, we solve all of those problems. And also, this proposal goes back to 2008, and in the 2012 workshop, COMMUNITY MEMBERS proposed this extension. I just added the overnight shuttles to pick up where these Harlem community members left off.

So this proposal actually provides more benefits, 24/7. Direct service between the (2) and (3) and the other subway lines and Randall’s Island all on one bus, more frequent service, better crowding conditions at 125/Lex, new overnight service to the island, plus NOBODY loses service. Honestly with this extension, there aren’t any negatives here, aside from the bridge traffic, which alternating the buses solves anyway. What’s not to love here about this extension (bought to you by Harlem community members)?

Parroting the same thing again from the link doesn't change anything. 

Okay, so some community members proposed that extension, so what? Individuals can make all types of suggestions, regardless of how thought out the plan is. If there's a problem with the bus stop, perhaps it can be....moved back or placed on a different location?  Also, if the M35 doesn't follow the schedule, what makes you think the M100 will follow it's schedule. You don't think M100 buses bunch or something? Shouldn't an effort be made to make sure M35 bus service runs on time. 

It also doesn't help when in that same list, some of those community members are suggesting this:

  • All social services should be moved from the neighborhood to Randall’s Island so shelter occupants can stay on the island.

Imagine having the M100 from the northern tip of Manhattan, travel below the (1) , travel on Broadway, down Amsterdam, and travel across 125th (all narrow and/or heavily traveled roads) , to then have to cross the Bridge, and then have to maneuver through Randall's Island, just to solve something as simple as a bus stop placement. JFC, get real!

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

The M35 is one hell of a useless service, as it only goes from Harlem to Randalls Island and back. Not very useful. In addition, the M100 extension has been discussed multiple times. The most recent was a 2012 study for 125th Street: http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/2012-12-03-sbs-125th-workshop-summary.pdf.

My proposal is now revised as to have M100 service between Inwood-220th Street and 2nd Avenue, which is the last stop over the bridge, operate every 4 minutes and service over the bridge to Randalls Island operate every 8 minutes. In other words, SERVICE WOULD ALTERNATE BETWEEN SECOND AVENUE AND RANDALLS ISLAND. This would ensure that service in Washington Heights and Harlem is not affected by traffic over the bridge (I know someone is going to ask me how bridge traffic can affect the M100 with this new extension). However, that aside, the M100 extension to Randalls Island would make service more efficient than the current patter of running a useless Randalls Shuttle (M35) and eliminate problems at 125 and Lex, another issue bought up in 2012. Night service to Randalls can be complimented by M100 shuttles to Amsterdam Avenue.

For an overnight bus network, our current network is fine. The only thing I would add are the holding lights at certain hubs, this making the commute more seamless. Maybe a few more routes without overnight service can be added, but that's for another topic.

Holy shit, there's a LOT OF ERRORS in this post !

Perhaps you should do some "proof"reading, get a clue, and stop hopping the back of that damn B1 bus.... Jesus Christ....

M100 to Randall's Island in any facet, when the M100 is constantly, notoriously late operating along its current route.... The hell is the matter with you?!

 

Edited by B35 via Church
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This "M100 to Randall's Island" idea will, in all likelihood, lead to something more akin to the QBx1 (some buses run the full route, but most just do the loop). I, for one, would push against reinstating that in any form.

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20 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Honestly I just need the overnight bus routes to connect. 

Really, just this.

And all-door boarding (waiting to get on Bx12 at night at 207/10th takes way too long be of the metrocard dip).

Everywhere else with trains, buses do timed connections. OWL service here should be doing the same. We can merge routes for more coverage - other cities do that, but if you can’t rely on getting to or from the train, it won’t matter what the bus number is, the system won’t work.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Everywhere else with trains, buses do timed connections. OWL service here should be doing the same. We can merge routes for more coverage - other cities do that, but if you can’t rely on getting to or from the train, it won’t matter what the bus number is, the system won’t work.

On SI, all of the overnight buses that connect with the ferry runs every 30 mins to make timed ferry connections. The S53 runs every 40, which I believe is to connect with every other (R) train, which runs every 20 minutes overnight. For buses that connect with subways, headways should run on a multiple of 20, so that buses can connect with every, every other or every third train. For example, the Q64 should run every 20 minutes instead of every 30 mins overnight because it's a feeder route to the Subway. Buses should also hold for connections and vice versa, especially on long headways. i.e. A train is 5 minutes late to the 71st Ave station, the connecting Q64 should hold to let passengers on to the train.

Edited by Lil 57

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1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

On SI, all of the overnight buses that connect with the ferry runs every 30 mins to make timed ferry connections. The S53 runs every 40, which I believe is to connect with every other (R) train, which runs every 20 minutes overnight. For buses that connect with subways, headways should run on a multiple of 20, so that buses can connect with every, every other or every third train. For example, the Q64 should run every 20 minutes instead of every 30 mins overnight because it's a feeder route to the Subway. Buses should also hold for connections and vice versa, especially on long headways. i.e. A train is 5 minutes late to the 71st Ave station, the connecting Q64 should hold to let passengers on to the train.

I think the main problem in NY versus other cities is that surface and underground have always been run as two independent systems, so coordination is not really considered.

SI buses coordinate to ferry times, but only ONE bus “coordinates” with the train - s57, and that’s really only because it’s routed to pass two sequential stations - New Dorp and passing Oakwood. (I don’t include s51 because it just ends near Grant City.)

So a proper network here would somehow integrate the train schedule as well while “serving” these stations.

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11 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

Saves money, also how about the people coming home from work? What if you lived on Richmond Ave and did a late shift in the city and had to pay for a cab to get home every night. That's why an S59 via Richmond Terrace to the ferry would be much better than an S40 running overnight. The western part of the S40 is <10 mins from the S46 and the S48 overnight.

That's true but at the same time consider the neighborhood that you're talking about. The portions of Mariners Harbor north of the train tracks are what gives the neighborhood most of its bad reputation

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

On SI, all of the overnight buses that connect with the ferry runs every 30 mins to make timed ferry connections. The S53 runs every 40, which I believe is to connect with every other (R) train, which runs every 20 minutes overnight. For buses that connect with subways, headways should run on a multiple of 20, so that buses can connect with every, every other or every third train. For example, the Q64 should run every 20 minutes instead of every 30 mins overnight because it's a feeder route to the Subway. Buses should also hold for connections and vice versa, especially on long headways. i.e. A train is 5 minutes late to the 71st Ave station, the connecting Q64 should hold to let passengers on to the train.

I don't think the Forest Hills examples work because the delays on QBL lines during overnight hours are over 20 minutes due to the (E)(F) and (R) all running local on the same track between Forest Hills and Roosevelt Ave because of construction. If I may use a different example that's slightly relevant to the topic, there's been times where I either ending up missing the n6 at 168th and Hillside and waiting 20-30 minutes for the next bus, or lucky enough to arrive at the bus stop with a few minutes to spare because of those delays. It doesn't help that there's no fast food joints open during the overnight hours in most places except for Flushing and Manhattan, making the wait feel longer than usual. While the n6 is fortunate enough to get decent ridership on Hillside around overnight hours, I can't say the same the n4 over on Archer because almost nobody wants to wait for the once a hour bus into Nassau at the 150th after putting up with a 2-3 hr commute on the (E) during late nights. The (F) can be tolerable once it's past Union Turnpike, but the (E) is all local from WTC to Jamaica Center with occasional construction and the reroute over to 179th can make it unbearable during the overnight hours. 

I think Forest Hills might work better if the agency somehow learns to market the Queens Express Buses to its customers. I tend to see a lot of BxMs, SIMs, and BMs running along Madison in the city around 11pm and Midnight, but the QMs are somehow non existent. Some Q32 runs tend to go missing at night as well. Even the transit app on my phone tends to show huge gaps in service during overnight hours. 

Another issue is that the MTA just doesn't want to adjust the bus schedule with up to date travel times. I can only guess that they rather do everything by computer instead of placing a dispatcher at the scene to hold the bus so customers can make an easy transfer from subway. 

 

 

Edited by NY1635

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On 3/21/2019 at 5:24 PM, Deucey said:

Really, just this.

And all-door boarding (waiting to get on Bx12 at night at 207/10th takes way too long be of the metrocard dip).

Everywhere else with trains, buses do timed connections. OWL service here should be doing the same. We can merge routes for more coverage - other cities do that, but if you can’t rely on getting to or from the train, it won’t matter what the bus number is, the system won’t work.

This 100%.

Imagine my surprise when I found out the Q27 late nights only goes to Horace Harding. The bus should do the route at least to Jamaica Av; that's a lot of connections that I could've done, instead of hoofing it to Union Turnpike at ungodly hours of the day.

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1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Imagine my surprise when I found out the Q27 late nights only goes to Horace Harding. The bus should do the route at least to Jamaica Av; that's a lot of connections that I could've done, instead of hoofing it to Union Turnpike at ungodly hours of the day.

😕

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3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

This 100%.

Imagine my surprise when I found out the Q27 late nights only goes to Horace Harding. The bus should do the route at least to Jamaica Av; that's a lot of connections that I could've done, instead of hoofing it to Union Turnpike at ungodly hours of the day.

The Q27 runs the full route overnights.

http://web.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/queens/q027cur.pdf

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Aren't there proposal threads for this type of discussion? Just pointing that out there....

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

The Q27 runs the full route overnights.

http://web.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/queens/q027cur.pdf

My bad. I blame going off to college and then moving :P

17 hours ago, Metro CSW said:

Aren't there proposal threads for this type of discussion? Just pointing that out there....

I mean, proposals seem to be more for "look at this new bus route I just made" whereas this is more of a "I wish I could get around at night in a reasonable time frame".

 

I don't know if this exists, but at least in Queens there should be late-night pulses out of major hubs like Flushing, QCM, and Jamaica. (So buses meet every half hour or every hour, wait for late buses so that people can transfer, and then the buses leave, like a heartbeat.)

Edited by bobtehpanda

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Metro CSW said:

Aren't there proposal threads for this type of discussion? Just pointing that out there....

32 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I mean, proposals seem to be more for "look at this new bus route I just made" whereas this is more of a "I wish I could get around at night in a reasonable time frame".

In other words, the proposals in the proposal threads are made/considered within the confines of the current network.....

The OP however, is inquiring about a separate/whole new network for overnight service....

Having this discussion in the proposal threads would be obfuscatory.... While I don't personally believe a network just for overnight service should be concocted, this is deserving of its own thread.

 

32 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't know if this exists, but at least in Queens there should be late-night pulses out of major hubs like Flushing, QCM, and Jamaica. (So buses meet every half hour or every hour, wait for late buses so that people can transfer, and then the buses leave, like a heartbeat.)

Albeit not during late nights, Norwalk's entire bus system operates like that..... There's nothing of the sort like that here in NYC.

Closest operation like that I can think of at the moment, are the Metropark loops out in Jersey....

Edited by B35 via Church

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54 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't know if this exists, but at least in Queens there should be late-night pulses out of major hubs like Flushing, QCM, and Jamaica. (So buses meet every half hour or every hour, wait for late buses so that people can transfer, and then the buses leave, like a heartbeat.)

So, basically a hub and spoke network.

I agree with that statement so that people can make a bus trip with at most one transfer overnight. The more transfers someone has to to make, the less inclined they will be to take public transportation. Especially at night when the headways are much longer.

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1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

So, basically a hub and spoke network.

I agree with that statement so that people can make a bus trip with at most one transfer overnight. The more transfers someone has to to make, the less inclined they will be to take public transportation. Especially at night when the headways are much longer.

The purpose of a pulse system is so transferring passengers don’t have to wait too long for their transfers, because they leave and arrive all at the same time 

As of right now in NYC at late night you may get off an (F) and see the Q1 leaving and the next one is 60 min away. In a pulse system once the (F) train arrives ALL the buses will leave at the same time and the next batch will all arrive at Jamaica at the same time and once all of the buses arrives, the train will then leave.

It works in every small system in the US, like Syracuse. Once that X light turns into O, all the buses will pull out and 80 minute later they would all be downtown to do the same drill again

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1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

So, basically a hub and spoke network.

...except all modes involved, depart that hub simultaneously.

Hub & spoke models/networks doesn't necessarily have to have modes operate in that manner (SI's bus network in/out of the Ferry is an example) .... What BobPanda is inquiring about is specific.

 

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1 minute ago, Mtatransit said:

The purpose of a pulse system is so transferring passengers don’t have to wait too long for their transfers, because they leave and arrive all at the same time 

As of right now in NYC at late night you may get off an (F) and see the Q1 leaving and the next one is 60 min away. In a pulse system once the (F) train arrives ALL the buses will leave at the same time and the next batch will all arrive at Jamaica at the same time and once all of the buses arrives, the train will then leave.

It works in every small system in the US, like Syracuse. Once that X light turns into O, all the buses will pull out and 80 minute later they would all be downtown to do the same drill again

Now I get it, It's like the SI local buses at the ferry.

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Just now, Lil 57 said:

Now I get it, It's like the SI local buses at the ferry.

Nah....

Every bus route out of the ferry do not all depart & leave at the same time.

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