Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[MTA Dude]

I'm starting to question the usefulness of stop removal or even limited stop for speeding up service. According to timetables, a good limited service might save around 5-6min for an hour long route, which really isn't a lot especially if few people are even riding the entire length of that route. What they often do instead is distort ridership between the limited and local, effectively causing them to bunch up and cause problems for consistent service. I think what would make a much bigger impact is a law giving buses the right of way when reentering traffic. Many drivers are already pretty good at being aggressive with reentry, but making it a law would definitely help on high traffic streets. The other thing that would help, although this is more of a pipe dream, is to make all the buses free so there aren't lines to pay for the bus and all doors can be used. 

I'm fine with most of the rush routes since they're meant to serve the branches far away from the subway, and crosstown/SBS since they'll probably have a ridership base separate from the locals with enough stops removed that it might actually make a difference, but most proposed limited routes should just be locals with no limited counterpart IMO.

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, MTA Dude said:

I'm starting to question the usefulness of stop removal or even limited stop for speeding up service. According to timetables, a good limited service might save around 5-6min for an hour long route, which really isn't a lot especially if few people are even riding the entire length of that route. What they often do instead is distort ridership between the limited and local, effectively causing them to bunch up and cause problems for consistent service. I think what would make a much bigger impact is a law giving buses the right of way when reentering traffic. Many drivers are already pretty good at being aggressive with reentry, but making it a law would definitely help on high traffic streets. The other thing that would help, although this is more of a pipe dream, is to make all the buses free so there aren't lines to pay for the bus and all doors can be used. 

I'm fine with most of the rush routes since they're meant to serve the branches far away from the subway, and crosstown/SBS since they'll probably have a ridership base separate from the locals with enough stops removed that it might actually make a difference, but most proposed limited routes should just be locals with no limited counterpart IMO.

Stop removal will lengthen the time it takes to make trips. I have been pushing for a law to give buses the right of way leaving bus stops for about five year. The MTA has agreed to support it and agreed to get bills introduced, but they still insist on eliminating bus stops. 
 

Read more in my latest article. https://www.bkreader.com/local-voices/op-ed-the-brooklyn-bus-network-redesign-needs-to-have-public-town-halls-7279288

[N6 Limited]

Less stops allow buses to actually move along with traffic and not constantly being halted by red signals because it pulled into a stop during a green phase. Also, a few mins make a difference when making connections.

[BrooklynBus]

14 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Less stops allow buses to actually move along with traffic and not constantly being halted by red signals because it pulled into a stop during a green phase. Also, a few mins make a difference when making connections.

Yes, the bus will save a few minutes, like five from end to end which means less costs for the MTA, but it also means many will now have to walk extra minutes to the bus stop increasing the chance of missing the bus and adding about 10 to 20 minutes to your trip. The time it takes you to make your trip including walking and waiting is more important than the time it takes the bus to make its trip. Also, eliminating lightly used stops save virtually no time at all since most buses would skip the stop anyway. 

[lornaevo]

As a former Q66 operator, those stop removal helped alot. 

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, lornaevo said:

As a former Q66 operator, those stop removal helped alot. 

Helped the operators, but it the passengers. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

2 hours ago, lornaevo said:

As a former Q66 operator, those stop removal helped alot. 

 

9 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Helped the operators, but it the passengers. 

Part of it is because they get away with underserving the Q66. There's a lot of activity at every stop because it's a major corridor, and it has a lot of commercial areas. I think that headways should be increased during the day. During the rush not only should there be more service, but that there should also be an LTD variant. That, along with the bus lanes (and proper enforcement) would have been more helpful than just seemingly eliminating every other stops, making certain transfers more inconvenient. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[BrooklynBus]

47 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

 

Part of it is because they get away with underserving the Q66. There's a lot of activity at every stop because it's a major corridor, and it has a lot of commercial areas. I think that headways should be increased during the day. During the rush not only should there be more service, but that there should also be an LTD variant. That, along with the bus lanes (and proper enforcement) would have been more helpful than just seemingly eliminating every other stops, making certain transfers more inconvenient. 

If they wanted to remove bus stops, they needed to establish a parallel route a few blocks away. Now some have to walk as much as 3/4 to access the route , when the guidelines call for a 1/4 walk. There is a reason why stops were previously only two blocks apart. 

[B35 via Church]

40 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Part of it is because they get away with underserving the Q66. There's a lot of activity at every stop because it's a major corridor, and it has a lot of commercial areas. I think that headways should be increased during the day. During the rush not only should there be more service, but that there should also be an LTD variant. That, along with the bus lanes (and proper enforcement) would have been more helpful than just seemingly eliminating every other stops, making certain transfers more inconvenient. 

...and I'm of the belief that the continued running of it to QBP has quite a bit to do with that underserving.

Should've just kept those stops along Northern & truncated the thing to run b/w Northern Blvd & Flushing.... Something else should be covering 35th.... The connection to 21st st. subway from points east, simply doesn't have near the same importance nowadays, as it did back when they extended the Q66 to QBP in the late 80's (or whenever that subway station opened).... Nowadays, for the most part, the Q66 is just another bus along 21st.... Those Jackson Hgts. patrons bombard the shit out of the route & the way I see it, they're being penalized because they continue to have trips running to QBP....

[Q43LTD]

23 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

...and I'm of the belief that the continued running of it to QBP has quite a bit to do with that underserving.

Should've just kept those stops along Northern & truncated the thing to run b/w Northern Blvd & Flushing.... Something else should be covering 35th.... The connection to 21st st. subway from points east, simply doesn't have near the same importance nowadays, as it did back when they extended the Q66 to QBP in the late 80's (or whenever that subway station opened).... Nowadays, for the most part, the Q66 is just another bus along 21st.... Those Jackson Hgts. patrons bombard the shit out of the route & the way I see it, they're being penalized because they continue to have trips running to QBP....

Fall of 89 to be exact when the Queensbridge station (then ) opened. I guess the felt it was a stub and sent the 66 to Queens Plaza in 2007. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of this proposed 63 if it were cut back to Woodside?

Edited July 22, 2023 by Q43LTD

[B35 via Church]

45 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

Fall of 89 to be exact when the Queensbridge station (then ) opened. I guess the felt it was a stub and sent the 66 to Queens Plaza in 2007. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of this proposed 63 if it were cut back to Woodside?

Wait, who said the proposed Q63 should be cut back to Woodside? That would just have it running back & forth along Broadway b/w Northern & QB all day..... I get that there's that gap on that part of Broadway, but that would still be wasteful to have the whole route doing that....

[Q43LTD]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Wait, who said the proposed Q63 should be cut back to Woodside? That would just have it running back & forth along Broadway b/w Northern & QB all day..... I get that there's that gap on that part of Broadway, but that would still be wasteful to have the whole route doing that....

I was referring to the Q66, not the 63. I should have been more clear

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

9 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

10 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

10 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

...Should've just kept those stops along Northern & truncated the thing to run b/w Northern Blvd & Flushing.... Something else should be covering 35th.... The connection to 21st st. subway from points east, simply doesn't have near the same importance nowadays, as it did back when they extended the Q66 to QBP in the late 80's (or whenever that subway station opened).... Nowadays, for the most part, the Q66 is just another bus along 21st.... Those Jackson Hgts. patrons bombard the shit out of the route & the way I see it, they're being penalized because they continue to have trips running to QBP....

Fall of 89 to be exact when the Queensbridge station (then ) opened. I guess the felt it was a stub and sent the 66 to Queens Plaza in 2007. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of this proposed 63 if it were cut back to Woodside?

Wait, who said the proposed Q63 should be cut back to Woodside? That would just have it running back & forth along Broadway b/w Northern & QB all day..... I get that there's that gap on that part of Broadway, but that would still be wasteful to have the whole route doing that....

I was referring to the Q66, not the 63. I should have been more clear

If the newfound purpose of this proposed Q66 is to connect riders to the ferry, then yes, truncating it to Northern Blvd would defeat that purpose.... One of the main problems I have with this proposed Q66 is the extension to the ferry.... For all that, I'd rather it be left at QBP...

[Q43LTD]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

If the newfound purpose of this proposed Q66 is to connect riders to the ferry, then yes, truncating it to Northern Blvd would defeat that purpose.... One of the main problems I have with this proposed Q66 is the extension to the ferry.... For all that, I'd rather it be left at QBP...

I guess they're trying to make Hunters Point like a "mini hub" like it was back in the day with the free 69 and an extended 103 during the PBL days

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

I guess they're trying to make Hunters Point like a "mini hub" like it was back in the day with the free 69 and an extended 103 during the PBL days

I used to say that Gantry Plaza is like a poor man's/pseudo BPC.... I can't even say that anymore, thanks to how exponentially lively BPC has gotten in the past couple of years or so, thanks to Brookfield Place & the passageway that connects it to Westfield World Trade.... Now that immediate part of LIC (Center Blvd, etc) is more reminiscent to me of that Freedom Pl. area, where the M72 ends at....

Anyway, there's an interesting coincidence & irony to what you're referencing, in regards to this redesigned network..... Coincidence being that they have a "Q69" running there & irony being that the Q103 would be eliminated with this redesign..... While I'd miss the Q103, I think it may be time to bid it adieu... The way they did it though, *shrugs*.... They turned the Q69 into a rush route that would make few stops along 21st until it hits 44th dr, to eventually turn off to serve the southern portion of Vernon Blvd.... The northern portion of Vernon Blvd, they have a heavily altered Q39 doing..... Speaking of which, I just realized that they'd have the B62 make more stops along 21st than the Q69 would... Something is very very wrong with that picture.... Also, rather than have their proposed Q67 basically be the new Q39, I would've kept the current Q39 intact & have their proposed Q67 be a branch of the current Q39... Much rather have that, than their proposed Q39 (which, coincidentally, would share both end terminals with the Q18)....

Regardless of the running of the Q69 to Hunters Point ferry, I would be interested to see what percentage or ratio of Ravenswood & Queensbridge PJ's patrons would gravitate to which route more - the proposed Q63 or the proposed Q69....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

21 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

If they wanted to remove bus stops, they needed to establish a parallel route a few blocks away. Now some have to walk as much as 3/4 to access the route , when the guidelines call for a 1/4 walk. There is a reason why stops were previously only two blocks apart. 

They should have revised the stops instead, a parallel route wouldn't have been much better since it misses Northern, which is where everything's at. To the south, 34th Avenue isn't even a feasible route anymore with the pedestrian spaces they now put in along with other road diet measures. 

21 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

...and I'm of the belief that the continued running of it to QBP has quite a bit to do with that underserving.

Should've just kept those stops along Northern & truncated the thing to run b/w Northern Blvd & Flushing.... Something else should be covering 35th.... The connection to 21st st. subway from points east, simply doesn't have near the same importance nowadays, as it did back when they extended the Q66 to QBP in the late 80's (or whenever that subway station opened).... Nowadays, for the most part, the Q66 is just another bus along 21st.... Those Jackson Hgts. patrons bombard the shit out of the route & the way I see it, they're being penalized because they continue to have trips running to QBP....

As far as 21st Street, it can be hit or miss. However I would say that I agree with the proposed running west of Broadway and (still to QBP), because it still carries to the immediate west. There's definitely a lot more ridership east of Broadway, but west of that they're aren't exactly empty, in many cases you can find close to SRO buses and even packed buses. Primarily Steinway, 43rd, and 48th Streets due to the shopping centers and other commercial areas nearby. I would still have the short turns though. Many people getting on at QBP also don't really get off until well after the bus has turned off 21st Street and even 35th Avenue so the new routing is a boon in that instance. 

For Steinway Street though, I wonder if the bulk of people currently taking the Q66 are actually walking down to 35th Avenue or if they're coming from that general area. If it's the former then that new route will be more inconvenient for those people, but I definitely think the case can be made for having the Q66 until at the very least Steinway Street. 

As far as QBP down to the Hunters Point South ferry, that I'm mixed on because while there's nothing on Jackson Avenue and I wouldn't want some infrequent route like the Q105 to cover that, IDK if the Q66 is the right route for that. 

20 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Wait, who said the proposed Q63 should be cut back to Woodside? That would just have it running back & forth along Broadway b/w Northern & QB all day..... I get that there's that gap on that part of Broadway, but that would still be wasteful to have the whole route doing that....

I know that this is not the implication by anyone here, though if you want to make such a route useful, merging it with the proposed Q80 would do wonders. You get the bulk of Middle Village and Glendale residents who got cut off from the train and Jackson Heights because of what they did with the Q29 and Q47 (SMFH), and they'll fill up the buses on Broadway.

With the construction going on around 69th Street and Queens Boulevard which has 69th be a two lane street along with the abysmal signalization that was not changed, it'll be about the same time via Broadway if not less. Plus, Broadway has a bunch of commercial areas that are not easy to get to (of which people in that area to some extent go), and Elmhurst Hospital. 

Prior to the making local stops between Queensboro Plaza and 74th Street, I would sometimes transfer to the Q18 at 69th Street & Garfield Avenue and take that to Woodside, which usually got me there faster than if I stayed on the Q47 to 69th Street. Would be able to catch an earlier express than I normally used to as well, which saved me time. It was that slow on 69th. Given that it's the summer time now and all trains are stopping at 69th, I just stay on to 69th Street. But when it's fall again and school is back, that's going to suck. I know a lot of people are probably not too happy with the express change, but it's been a godsend for me. No longer just missing the local train and having to wait 10 minutes in the afternoon as well. 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

As far as 21st Street, it can be hit or miss. However I would say that I agree with the proposed running west of Broadway and (still to QBP), because it still carries to the immediate west. There's definitely a lot more ridership east of Broadway, but west of that they're aren't exactly empty, in many cases you can find close to SRO buses and even packed buses. Primarily Steinway, 43rd, and 48th Streets due to the shopping centers and other commercial areas nearby. I would still have the short turns though. Many people getting on at QBP also don't really get off until well after the bus has turned off 21st Street and even 35th Avenue so the new routing is a boon in that instance. 

For Steinway Street though, I wonder if the bulk of people currently taking the Q66 are actually walking down to 35th Avenue or if they're coming from that general area. If it's the former then that new route will be more inconvenient for those people, but I definitely think the case can be made for having the Q66 until at the very least Steinway Street. 

As far as QBP down to the Hunters Point South ferry, that I'm mixed on because while there's nothing on Jackson Avenue and I wouldn't want some infrequent route like the Q105 to cover that, IDK if the Q66 is the right route for that.

From QBP, there's still a bias in favor of the Q69 (even with that backtracking to Court Sq. before running up 21st) over the Q66.... Q69's simply see consistent usage there, whereas Q66's are hit or miss.... You tend to get those packed/SRO buses on that general part of the Q66 in question more often than not, if they are a] that delayed & b] those are folks that are specifically gunning for somewhere along/around the Q66 b/w 21st st (not inclusive) & Broadway (which is basically what you're defending, which I'm not exactly doubting).... My claim isn't that Q66's are empty west of Broadway, my claim is that something else should serve that segment of the Q66 - as I believe the Q66 should be a more compact route that's better catered to/focused on the Jackson Hgts & N. Corona patronage..... Putting it another way, I don't see the need to have the Q66 be this sort of, regional route - like the Q60's, B44's, etc. of the world...

My ideal plan/proposal/sentiment/whatever on these parts (forums), has always been to have the Q66 run down 48th to QB, so I don't entirely disagree with what you're saying there.... Anything west of 48th though, I'm in full support of having a route like their proposed Q63 take that portion of the Q66 over.... I honestly don't see all that much through riding past Broadway, of folks taking the Q66 from the western end of the route.... A significant majority tend to not ride past Broadway (this includes 35th av. riders) - which the proposed Q63 would be right at that threshold of catering to....

Sure, the straightening of the proposed Q66 along Northern to Queens Plaza would be a benefit in general - although I do question extent..... Looking at the bright side, maybe such a move would draw in more Jackson Hgts. patrons, as they wouldn't have to put up with the current meandering via 35th, 21st, and Queens Plz. south.... Past Queens Plaza though on the proposed Q66, I see buses carrying a lot of air along Jackson av - even disregarding the terminating of it at the ferry..... They can have the Q66 skipping as many stops as they want, it still doesn't/wouldn't make that extension more justified.....

With the way they're butchering up service, I'm not so certain what should serve Jackson av anymore, because the Brooklyn bound B62 nowadays has become a straight shot b/w Court Sq. & that stop at Jackson/11th... If you're lucky, you'll get some boarding at the Trader Joe's over at 23rd..... Queens bound B62 is even worse; lion's share of whoever's on the bus get off at that first stop in Queens, and whoever's left, tank out at 23rd (well, Davis st).... Few people ride to Court Sq (the Thomson/Jackson stop) & QBP on the B62 anymore & the MTA only has themselves to blame, with their handling of the B62.... I have watched that route go from being immensely popular in Queens, to being on the precipice of being a whole afterthought - and that phenomenon started happening well before the creation of the B32 too.....

Edited July 23, 2023 by B35 via Church

[MTA Dude]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:26 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Part of it is because they get away with underserving the Q66. There's a lot of activity at every stop because it's a major corridor, and it has a lot of commercial areas. I think that headways should be increased during the day. During the rush not only should there be more service, but that there should also be an LTD variant. That, along with the bus lanes (and proper enforcement) would have been more helpful than just seemingly eliminating every other stops, making certain transfers more inconvenient. 

Eliminating those Q66 stops definitely wasn't the right way to speed up service. Northern Blvd is a corridor that I think would definitely benefit from limited stop service, just not one that completely duplicates the route. I would run the local from Flushing to Woodside, and then the LTD could be used to parallel the , running from Corona straight along Northern Blvd to QBP and then across the bridge, maybe to Columbus Circle because that's been proposed a few times before, but at the very least to Lexington Ave to relieve the . I think that would be better than just a limited variant that risks carrying air and having to run less frequently by skipping so many stops.

[Q43LTD]

On 7/23/2023 at 2:47 PM, B35 via Church said:

I used to say that Gantry Plaza is like a poor man's/pseudo BPC.... I can't even say that anymore, thanks to how exponentially lively BPC has gotten in the past couple of years or so, thanks to Brookfield Place & the passageway that connects it to Westfield World Trade.... Now that immediate part of LIC (Center Blvd, etc) is more reminiscent to me of that Freedom Pl. area, where the M72 ends at....

Anyway, there's an interesting coincidence & irony to what you're referencing, in regards to this redesigned network..... Coincidence being that they have a "Q69" running there & irony being that the Q103 would be eliminated with this redesign..... While I'd miss the Q103, I think it may be time to bid it adieu... The way they did it though, *shrugs*.... They turned the Q69 into a rush route that would make few stops along 21st until it hits 44th dr, to eventually turn off to serve the southern portion of Vernon Blvd.... The northern portion of Vernon Blvd, they have a heavily altered Q39 doing..... Speaking of which, I just realized that they'd have the B62 make more stops along 21st than the Q69 would... Something is very very wrong with that picture.... Also, rather than have their proposed Q67 basically be the new Q39, I would've kept the current Q39 intact & have their proposed Q67 be a branch of the current Q39... Much rather have that, than their proposed Q39 (which, coincidentally, would share both end terminals with the Q18)....

Regardless of the running of the Q69 to Hunters Point ferry, I would be interested to see what percentage or ratio of Ravenswood & Queensbridge PJ's patrons would gravitate to which route more - the proposed Q63 or the proposed Q69....

Yeah it was definitely overkill with the 39/67 swap. Routing and service spans. Similar with the 26/27 swap (Even though the 26 regains off peak and weekend service for the first time since forever). As far as the proposed 63/69 usage. I think it would be 50/50. Weekends the 63 may get more patronage if there's no local service between Jackson Hts and Queens Plaza

[TheNextGen2009]

On 6/18/2023 at 6:47 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

So apparently the Q78 and Q82 are online on MTA bus time but without any official stops. Only the neighborhood terminals and main street corridor are listed, which are Springfield Blvd and Hillside Av respectively.

As of I don't know, maybe yesterday, they're not anymore.

 

[Q43LTD]

My only nitpick with this 82 is that it should Hollis Court in both directions. Maybe the 77 could have remained at 145.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

5 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

My only nitpick with this 82 is that it should Hollis Court in both directions. Maybe the 77 could have remained at 145.

Hollis Court northbound ends in a mandatory U-turn just south of Hillside.

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

My only nitpick with this 82 is that it should Hollis Court in both directions. Maybe the 77 could have remained at 145.

I'd say it has no business even being on Hollis Court.... For one, the distance between Hollis Court & Francis Lewis is shorter, than the distance b/w 212 pl. & Springfield (in other words, 212 pl is more centralized b/w Francis Lewis & Springfield, than Hollis Court Blvd is).... Secondly, the SB buses can still run straight down 212 pl. to Hempstead av... Thirdly, how much time is really gonna be saved taking Hollis Court, over any of the other SB streets b/w Francis Lewis & Hempstead av.....

[MTA Dude]

I'm more concerned with Jamaica Ave losing its Q36 rush service, especially in exchange for a not even one mile stretch of Hempstead Ave getting it instead...

[Q43LTD]

It will still go to Jamaica, just in the form of the 57