R46 Retirement Thread

[slantfan4281]

2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

And if that’s the case, it will take about 15 years to deliver these cars and the R46s will be busted and catching on fire by then. Then we can forget about CBTC installment on 6 Av until 2050.

I thought the plan was to do 10 cars a month through the end of year/base order (or was it 10 a week?)

[darkstar8983]

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Uh, when was the  shared with the ? If that was the case, those test R68 units with the signs should’ve popped up on the .

 

spare factor R68s were rotated between the  while the  was still at CIY. 

[zacster]

12 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Yes. So right now no R46s are going to retirement. I think any R46 transfers have to wait until the  is back to full service since that will reduce the available trains for the . But by that time hopefully enough R211s will be cleared for service. And yes likely the R211 moves will allow some R68s to be moved (likely 2768-2779) from the  to the  ( the  would therefore be all R46s again) and any leftover R68s not used in CIY on the  assigned to the . 
 

when CIY had the R160s, the spare factor for each route there was:

 - 32 R68s (200 R68As in service)

 - 30 R160s, 16 R68s (290 R160s and 32 R68s in service)

 - 40 R160s (210 R160s in service)

 - 12 R68s (rotated with the , 52 R68s in service)

 

and since the swap was a 1-for-1, coupled with the R46s age, we’d probably need a spare factor of:

 - add 16 R68 cars to spare factor (6 trains total)

 - add 20 R68 cars to spare factor (7 trains total)

- these R68s would be subtracted from the  pool of cars, so to make up the deficit:

 

 - 176 R46 cars + 48 R46s as spares = 224 cars

 - 64 R68 cars + 200 R46 cars for service, 16 R68 cars + 48 R48 cars as spares = 320 cars (240 of which are R46s)

224 + 240 = 464 R46s would be needed at Coney Island Yard in this case, of which CI only has 388 cars in service (8 cars have been permanently removed from service), so we’d need 76 R46 cars to be transferred to buff up the spare factor enough, (Probabaly just round it up to 80-88 cars, then start retirement). 

Your math basically agrees with what I was thinking, except you add spares to account for the age of the cars.  And it is funny how your count of needed cars comes up to a max of 88 = 11 trains = 11 sets of retired R32s.  They already have that many R211s running so there is no real reason to wait for the M to be back, and by that time there will be even more R211s.  The only thing I think may be wrong is that the 8 full trains from the G will send some back to Concourse, with the rest in rotation for N/Q/W.  There will always be a few on the Q. 

When they start putting the R211 on 6th Ave for CBTC, the R68s will displace the R46 on N/Q/W completely, but that'll be a while.

[zacster]

9 hours ago, slantfan4281 said:

I thought the plan was to do 10 cars a month through the end of year/base order (or was it 10 a week?)

I thought it was 10 cars every other week.  That always seemed slow given how many are sitting in Lincoln.

[R32 3838]

it's going to be more faster since they are behind schedule and they are a decent chunk of cars that are fully built and were ready to go but the delivery was halted until the gearbox issue was fixed. 

 

As for the R46's I would expect to start seeing retirements in the late summer - early fall by then there should be enough R211s to start pushing out cars to storage,retirement and transfers to CIY to kill off any of their bad cars and to increase spare factor.

 

Also it's rumored that the ALL the R179s might move too including the 10 car units.

[TyBusLover1]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

it's going to be more faster since they are behind schedule and they are a decent chunk of cars that are fully built and were ready to go but the delivery was halted until the gearbox issue was fixed. 

 

As for the R46's I would expect to start seeing retirements in the late summer - early fall by then there should be enough R211s to start pushing out cars to storage,retirement and transfers to CIY to kill off any of their bad cars and to increase spare factor.

 

Also it's rumored that the ALL the R179s might move too including the 10 car units.

Hopefully the rumors are true because that way I don’t have to see the 179s on the a&c  lines especially the c.

[slantfan4281]

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

it's going to be more faster since they are behind schedule and they are a decent chunk of cars that are fully built and were ready to go but the delivery was halted until the gearbox issue was fixed. 

 

As for the R46's I would expect to start seeing retirements in the late summer - early fall by then there should be enough R211s to start pushing out cars to storage,retirement and transfers to CIY to kill off any of their bad cars and to increase spare factor.

 

Also it's rumored that the ALL the R179s might move too including the 10 car units.

Doubt it'll happen but having a R179 on 6th Av, 4th Av and Brighton express would pretty nice. 

If I'm understanding this right, here's how each R211 order goes in term of car replacements:

-The R211S will directly replace all the R44s on the SIR, and those are expected to enter service by the summer, with R44s being pulled from service ASAP

-The base order of R211A will go to Pitkin to displace better performing R46s to CI. The first 110 R211A are meant to cover the 110 car shortage from the R32s retired in 2020, but we're almost at that number in service already. Once we get past, say, 150 cars in service, the R46s will start being retired (married pairs first). With 525 cars in the first option minus 150, we're left 375 R211s, which could replace 300 R46s. The base order is expected to be complete in about a year. 

-The first option order is also R211A cars, and with 640 cars there you could replace 512 R46s, so the rest of the fleet. The second option order can then be for fleet expansion.

-The R211T will stay on the  for the time being, and they'll decide whether the second option order will be open gangway or not later. 

[TyBusLover1]

15 minutes ago, slantfan4281 said:

Doubt it'll happen but having a R179 on 6th Av, 4th Av and Brighton express would pretty nice. 

If I'm understanding this right, here's how each R211 order goes in term of car replacements:

-The R211S will directly replace all the R44s on the SIR, and those are expected to enter service by the summer, with R44s being pulled from service ASAP

-The base order of R211A will go to Pitkin to displace better performing R46s to CI. The first 110 R211A are meant to cover the 110 car shortage from the R32s retired in 2020, but we're almost at that number in service already. Once we get past, say, 150 cars in service, the R46s will start being retired (married pairs first). With 525 cars in the first option minus 150, we're left 375 R211s, which could replace 300 R46s. The base order is expected to be complete in about a year. 

-The first option order is also R211A cars, and with 640 cars there you could replace 512 R46s, so the rest of the fleet. The second option order can then be for fleet expansion.

-The R211T will stay on the  for the time being, and they'll decide whether the second option order will be open gangway or not later. 

I guess we just have to wait and see. On another note , once pitkin gets at least 35-40 sets of r211As then they will start retiring r46s and also start scraping more r32s.

[R32 3838]

Honestly the R179s (the 10 car units) need to stay on the . They actually fit the line as for the 8 car units they can go to ENY for expansion of service like an extension to south Brooklyn and etc.

 

As for the R46's time will tell but the A-A units will be the first to go, They were the first to be stored before the R211 issues started. If it were up to me i would send at least 4-6 cars to CIY for the Franklin ave as spares if the R68s need work or something (I know this won't happen lmao)

[Ale188]

12 hours ago, TyBusLover1 said:

Hopefully the rumors are true because that way I don’t have to see the 179s on the a&c  lines especially the c.

Are you still calling the 179s lemons? They're like the most reliable subway car right now. (not counting 211s because they didn't run for a year yet, hell we don't even know if they're reliable.) They can get out of the C but the A line is staying 179 according to @R32 3838. So, they're not gonna be all gone from 8 Av but 4 car sets will be.

[TyBusLover1]

1 hour ago, Ale188 said:

Are you still calling the 179s lemons? They're like the most reliable subway car right now. (not counting 211s because they didn't run for a year yet, hell we don't even know if they're reliable.) They can get out of the C but the A line is staying 179 according to @R32 3838. So, they're not gonna be all gone from 8 Av but 4 car sets will be.

What I’m trying to say is I don’t like them. Also is it possible that once the 4 car 179s eventually leave the C that they will end up at concourse or ci yard? 

[zacster]

The only lines that are 8 car are the J/M/L/Z and those are all out of ENY.  They won't be going to Concourse or CI.  Maybe they'll make the G 8 car and use them as a dedicated fleet there.  I don't know how many trainsets they need vs. what is available.  I somehow don't think it'll be enough.

[TyBusLover1]

2 hours ago, zacster said:

The only lines that are 8 car are the J/M/L/Z and those are all out of ENY.  They won't be going to Concourse or CI.  Maybe they'll make the G 8 car and use them as a dedicated fleet there.  I don't know how many trainsets they need vs. what is available.  I somehow don't think it'll be enough.

Okay.

[RedLine]

The 6228/30 pair is still in service

[BenTheMiner]

On 2/2/2024 at 4:01 PM, darkstar8983 said:

Yeah, I'd give it another year until we start seeing any R46s officially retiring. Likely the next 100 R211A cars that will be arriving will ensure the spare factor at Pitkin/207 St Yards will be sufficient to start transferring "good" R46s to Coney Island. Then afterwards, the R46s can start retiring from Coney Island (either the CI ones retiring and being replaced by the Pitkin R46s, or outright replacing the Pitkin R46s).

 

The current R211s right now are likely replacing the R32s that have been in storage. Remember that in May / June, the  will be going back to full service, so the extra R179s/R160s that have been running on the  will be replaced again with the R46s. I also think R46 6228-6230 ran today on one of the 168 St-bound  train trip during the AM rush. 

Basically. They're moving the R32s out now. If they didn't, Pitkin would get full.

I think an unwritten rule (though I'm not sure if MTA follows this or not) should be to not have spares of a train of the same type of fleet. In other words, R211s should not be spares for R211s. If the entire fleet gets grounded, then there are no "spares" to use. We may have to wait until all the R211s arrive for R46s to start being moved out for scrap.

[BenTheMiner]

1 minute ago, BenTheMiner said:

Basically. They're moving the R32s out now. If they didn't, Pitkin would get full.

I think an unwritten rule (though I'm not sure if MTA follows this or not) should be to not have spares of a train of the same type of fleet. In other words, R211s should not be spares for R211s. If the entire fleet gets grounded, then there are no "spares" to use. We may have to wait until all the R211s arrive for R46s to start being moved out for scrap.

To add on, there's also the theory that some Pitkin R46 sets will be moved to Coney Island Yard, expected to retire the Coney Island Yard sets that are performing the worst, or also possibly as spares as mentioned.

[BenTheMiner]

On 2/4/2024 at 10:38 AM, zacster said:

What I'm thinking is that the 11 R32 trains were the spares for both CI and Pitkin,  and with the R211s they have now they've been replaced, and that CI should have gotten some already.  As far as I know though they haven't transferred anything yet.  If a bunch of trains started to crap out from CI I'm sure the call would go out to bring some over since they don't need them at Pitkin.

I don't think they would get any spares from Concourse.  If anything, they'd return some R68s to Concourse when they get more R46s.  I guess that would mean even fewer R68s on the N/Q/W. 

That seems to be correct. Coney Island Yard currently appears to get spare R160s from Jamaica Yard if needed. Loaned sets have ran on the Q and W before (and I'm not talking about the regularly scheduled AM rush hour trip on the Q to Coney Island).

[BenTheMiner]

On 2/4/2024 at 11:52 PM, Lawrence St said:

Uh, when was the  shared with the ? If that was the case, those test R68 units with the signs should’ve popped up on the .

 

I believe those were the only sets to not be shared, though they did end up on other lines after some point.

[BenTheMiner]

On 2/6/2024 at 8:01 AM, TyBusLover1 said:

What I’m trying to say is I don’t like them. Also is it possible that once the 4 car 179s eventually leave the C that they will end up at concourse or ci yard? 

It's possible and estimated if they are to extend the C to be full-length, which currently isn't possible as it is based out of 207 St Yard and its inspection shed does not fit 600-foot long trains (the R46 and R211T are based out of Pitkin Yard).

[BenTheMiner]

On 2/12/2024 at 8:57 PM, RedLine said:

The 6228/30 pair is still in service

Just confirmed. Thanks for pointing that out.

[BenTheMiner]

R46 married pair status (last time seen in service):

6208+10 2/14
6216+8 2/14
6220+2 1/31 (returning from CIY to Pitkin 2/14)
6224+6 1/31 (returning from CIY to Pitkin 2/14)
6228+30 2/14
6232+4 2/14
6236+8 2/14
6240+2 11/10
6244+6 2/13
6248+50 2/13
6252+4 1/26
6256+8 2/14

[slantfan4281]

3 minutes ago, BenTheMiner said:

R46 married pair status (last time seen in service):

6208+10 2/14
6216+8 2/14
6220+2 1/31 (returning from CIY to Pitkin 2/14)
6224+6 1/31 (returning from CIY to Pitkin 2/14)
6228+30 2/14
6232+4 2/14
6236+8 2/14
6240+2 11/10
6244+6 2/13
6248+50 2/13
6252+4 1/26
6256+8 2/14

At this rate I wonder if 6240-2 will see service again, we might have seen the first non-accident retirements

[FLX9304]

On 2/4/2024 at 11:43 PM, darkstar8983 said:

And if that’s the case, it will take about 15 years to deliver these cars and the R46s will be busted and catching on fire by then. Then we can forget about CBTC installment on 6 Av until 2050.

Is that your conspiracy theory? 

[BenTheMiner]

R46 last known active dates as of 2/14 (marked sets OOS or possibly retired)

5878-81 2/14
5882-5 2/14
5886-9 2/9
5890-3 2/12
5894-7 2/2 (went to Jamaica Yard 2/6)
5898-5901 2/13
5902-5 2/14
5906-9 2/14
! 5910-3 1/9 (seen in Pitkin Yard 1/15)
5914-7 2/14
5918-21 2/13
5922-5 2/5
5926-9 2/14
5930-3 2/7
! 5934-7 11/6 (seen in Concourse Yard 2/10)
5938-41 2/13
5942-5 2/13
5946-9 2/3
5950-3 2/11
5954-7 2/14
5958-61 2/11
5962-5 2/14
! 5966-9 12/30 (seen in 207 St Yard 2/11)
! 5970-3 8/4 supposed 8/28
5974-7 2/14
5978-81 2/13
5982-5 2/12
! 5986-9 1/12 (seen in Concourse Yard 1/31)
! 5990-3 1/26
5994-7 2/2
5998-6001 2/14
6002-5 2/14
6006-9 2/10
6010-13 2/14
6014-7 2/11
6018-21 2/14
6022-5 2/12
6026-9 2/13
6030-3 2/12
6034-7 2/14
6038-41 2/14
6042-5 2/12
6046-9 2/13
6050-3 2/9
6054-7 2/14
6058-61 2/13
! 6212+6063-5 1/26
6066-9 2/14
6070-3 2/12
6074-7 2/14
6078-81 2/12
6082-5 2/13
6086-9 2/11
6090-3 2/10
6094-7 2/9 (seen moving NIS 2/10)
6098-6101 2/14
6102-5 2/12
6106-9 2/14
6110-3 2/13
6114-7 2/14
6118-21 2/14
6122-5 2/14
! 6126-9 1/19 (seen in Concourse Yard 2/10)
6130-3 2/14
6134-7 2/13
6138-41 2/13
6142-5 2/14
6146-9 2/6
6152-3+6206-7 2/6
6154-7 2/14
! 6158-61 1/5 or 1/10 (seen in Pitkin Yard 1/15)
6162-5 2/14
6166-9 2/9
6170-3 2/14
6174-7 2/1
6178-81 2/13
6182-5 2/2
! 6186-9 1/24
! 6190-3 1/22
! 6194-7 1/24 (Concourse 2/2, returned to Pitkin 2/9)
6198-6201 2/14
6202-5 2/6

6208+10 2/14
6216+8 2/14
6220+2 1/31 (returning from CIY to Pitkin 2/14)
6224+6 1/31 (returning from CIY to Pitkin 2/14)
6228+30 2/14
6232+4 2/14
6236+8 2/14
6240+2 11/10
6244+6 2/13
6248+50 2/13
6252+4 1/26
6256+8 2/14

[TyBusLover1]

8 hours ago, BenTheMiner said:

R46 last known active dates as of 2/14 (marked sets OOS or possibly retired)

5878-81 2/14
5882-5 2/14
5886-9 2/9
5890-3 2/12
5894-7 2/2 (went to Jamaica Yard 2/6)
5898-5901 2/13
5902-5 2/14
5906-9 2/14
! 5910-3 1/9 (seen in Pitkin Yard 1/15)
5914-7 2/14
5918-21 2/13
5922-5 2/5
5926-9 2/14
5930-3 2/7
! 5934-7 11/6 (seen in Concourse Yard 2/10)
5938-41 2/13
5942-5 2/13
5946-9 2/3
5950-3 2/11
5954-7 2/14
5958-61 2/11
5962-5 2/14
! 5966-9 12/30 (seen in 207 St Yard 2/11)
! 5970-3 8/4 supposed 8/28
5974-7 2/14
5978-81 2/13
5982-5 2/12
! 5986-9 1/12 (seen in Concourse Yard 1/31)
! 5990-3 1/26
5994-7 2/2
5998-6001 2/14
6002-5 2/14
6006-9 2/10
6010-13 2/14
6014-7 2/11
6018-21 2/14
6022-5 2/12
6026-9 2/13
6030-3 2/12
6034-7 2/14
6038-41 2/14
6042-5 2/12
6046-9 2/13
6050-3 2/9
6054-7 2/14
6058-61 2/13
! 6212+6063-5 1/26
6066-9 2/14
6070-3 2/12
6074-7 2/14
6078-81 2/12
6082-5 2/13
6086-9 2/11
6090-3 2/10
6094-7 2/9 (seen moving NIS 2/10)
6098-6101 2/14
6102-5 2/12
6106-9 2/14
6110-3 2/13
6114-7 2/14
6118-21 2/14
6122-5 2/14
! 6126-9 1/19 (seen in Concourse Yard 2/10)
6130-3 2/14
6134-7 2/13
6138-41 2/13
6142-5 2/14
6146-9 2/6
6152-3+6206-7 2/6
6154-7 2/14
! 6158-61 1/5 or 1/10 (seen in Pitkin Yard 1/15)
6162-5 2/14
6166-9 2/9
6170-3 2/14
6174-7 2/1
6178-81 2/13
6182-5 2/2
! 6186-9 1/24
! 6190-3 1/22
! 6194-7 1/24 (Concourse 2/2, returned to Pitkin 2/9)
6198-6201 2/14
6202-5 2/6

6208+10 2/14
6216+8 2/14
6220+2 1/31 (returning from CIY to Pitkin 2/14)
6224+6 1/31 (returning from CIY to Pitkin 2/14)
6228+30 2/14
6232+4 2/14
6236+8 2/14
6240+2 11/10
6244+6 2/13
6248+50 2/13
6252+4 1/26
6256+8 2/14

I feel like 5970-3, 5934-7 and a few other sets on this list are retired.